@TV01,

1. I never said that. The Bible doesn't say that about anything! Please quote me or the Bible    (if you can!)

Well, the Bible said the love of money is the root of all evil. Going by the principle of nuances and symbolism which you have been shoving down our throats, I cannot but conclude that you view politics to be the root of all evils. You said: the compromise of the COE was bsically due to their participation and endorsement of politics. You regard homosexuality in Churches as a bye-product of the governing structure of the churches. Not only is that notion laughable, it has no scriptural basis.

2. Participation in government (as an end result of agitating for worldly power), is no where shown or endorsed in scripture. Being called in a "puplic service" capacity is another matter.

You have not shown where the Bible condemns it my friend. this is still nothing but your opinion. In any case, even David and Solomon employed politics to get to their throne. You may want to read how each one came to power. Check out how David entered into league with others to become the king of the 12 tribes and also how Solomon became a king only after lobbying.  And can you give us an example of a Christian in the Civil Service who never lobbied for that position one way or another?

3. I have outlined variously examples of the States being arrained against true believers. The climax of scripture in Revelations outlines the role of the Beast. Hence, with hindsight or forsight identyfying types and shadows of symbolism throughout scripture is quite straightforward.

For every example of the State arraigned against the believers that you give henceforth, I will provide you another example of the State in league with the true believers. I wish you'd quit making reference to the beast in Revelation 'cos it is subject to varying interpretation. Your first submission on this suggests you are aware of this dilemma which made you use the phrase, "I believe".

. Whose servant is Satan? You are being particularly obtuse here. If I talked about God
   sovreignty once, I've talked about it a hundred times. Your consistent failure to appreciate
   context in the bible and see the "big picture" is quite disappointing. You also fail to make sense to
   any degree of Biblical symbolism. Your whole deployment of scripture appears to be in support of your own (G/MOG's) construct.

I have asked you for scriptures to back your position and you are talking about symbolism. If I ask you to prove to me from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin, would you be telling me about symbolism or would you produce undisputed facts from scripture? In any case, if you are trying to compare Satan to the State in reference to God's sovereingty, permit me to remind you that Satan is not God's servant for good towards the Church. Satan is not a rewarder of the good and punisher of the evil. Permit me to remind you that you are not to give unto Satan that which is Satan's. Also permit me to remind you that you are not to be subject to the authority of Satan. So can you see the foolishness of your thoughts? I don't know what you mean by my MOG's construct as I am not here spewing out anybody's teachings. I always make refernce to the source of my thoughts and words.

Permit me to ask you a question, or two.

1. What was the Lords meaning in this verse?
Mark 8:15 ~ Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

The answer is in Luke 12:1 - Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2. And this one
Luke 20:25 ~ And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." If Caesar is God's servant, why is there an apparent dichotomy in rendering to them?

One thing is for sure. God will never ask you to be involved in or owe allegiance to a person or instituion that compromises our faith in Him. God has no problem with Ceasar, and that is why He encourages our obedience and allegiance to Him. If He feels allegiance to Ceasar will compromise our faith, He will not be shy to say: "Come out form amongst Ceasar and be ye separate."

I am still waiting for your scriptural backing of your position.

TayoD:

The answer is in Luke 12:1 - Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Apologies for not being more specific. I was specifically referring to Herod here.

TayoD:

One thing is for sure. God will never ask you to be involved in or owe allegiance to a person or instituion that compromises our faith in Him. God has no problem with Ceasar, and that is why He encourages our obedience and allegiance to Him. If He feels allegiance to Ceasar will compromise our faith, He will not be shy to say: "Come out form amongst Ceasar and be ye separate."

Another glaring demonstration of your counterintuitive exegesis!

1. You can only have allegience to one. Please take time to figure out to whom you owe that allegiance. God does not ask us to pledge allegiance to any other.

2. What God will demand is that you don't compromise your faith what ever person of institution you join yourself with. God only demands we obey laws that do not violate our obedience to Him. Your counter-intuitive and circuitous logic is exhausting! Is it all "blind faith" with you? No reason or understanding? Even a smidgin of common sense? In a country (and there are quite a few) that offers abortion on demand, is a A Christian medic right to perform such operations in "allegiance to Caesar and accordance with the law", or does such a one refuse on the grounds of allegiance to a higher authority!

Needless to say your allegiance is obviously not to the clear reading of the Word or scriptural narrative!

TayoD:

I am still waiting for your scriptural backing of your position.

I believe I have amply provided it, and added depth. Please feel free to query specifics or ask for more detail.

I however am not waiting for backing for yours, because there simply isn't any  .

Lord have mercy!

TayoD:

Well, the Bible said the love of money is the root of all evil. Going by the principle of nuances and symbolism which you have been shoving down our throats, I cannot but conclude that you view politics to be the root of all evils.

More convoluted thinking here. A mixture of sloppy half-baked deductions and nonsensical conclusions. I have talked through the literal Word, shadow and fullfilling types and drawn a comprehensive and unified understanding from different perspectives. All this while humouring your "painting by numbers" approach to this whole exercise.

Surely The lord is using you to teach me patience (although I am yet to figure out the point of some of the other gainsayers on this site  !).

TayoD:

You said: the compromise of the COE was bsically due to their participation and endorsement of politics.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation for the COE' total lack of spiritual credibility?

TayoD:

You regard homosexuality in Churches as a bye-product of the governing structure of the churches. Not only is that notion laughable, it has no scriptural basis.

Again, please provide an alternative understanding. Additionally, Sexual Immorality generally (and not homosexuality alone or specifically) is the physical outworking of the spiritual adultery engaged in by many churches (by seving other gods). It's also compounded and evidenced by the man-made hierarchical structure of the Institutional Church. The fact that they are carnal and flesh driven is evidenced by their fruits;

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

All the above are abundant in the IC. Where does one begin. The paedophillia of RC, the excesses of Pentecostalism, the weakness of Anglicanism.  Is it the discarding of scripture, the abandonment of doctrine? or the "other Gospels" being peddled. See it in the power rifts, the empire building (jealousy, contentions and dissensions leading to denominationalism). The control, the manipulation (witchcraft by, tithing, submission false authority and submission precepts). The selfish ambition (that's right, the lust for riches & political power are just that, dress them up all you want). It's literally endless and blindingly (no pun!)obvious even to unbelievers.

Did the Rev King story not unfold before your eyes? Your ignorance and spiritual simplicity drove you and other Nairaland "MOG apologists" to view the Ted Haggard incident as a "the devil is attacking leaders" issue. Delusion at it's fullest.The devil wants every believer dead in sin. He decieves, tempts and accuses, the rest is down to your lusts and your flesh. And the IC's reek of it. Nasty, smelling, creeping (uncrucified) flesh! None of you had the spiritual cojones to ask the fate/standing of someone steeped in 3 years of unrepentant homosexuality and drug abuse. Remember he was outed! If it had been an unbeliever, you would have summarily condenmed him in your heart. Hypocrites, devourers of widows houses, vipers!

TayoD:

You have not shown where the Bible condemns it my friend. this is still nothing but your opinion. In any case, even David and Solomon employed politics to get to their throne. You may want to read how each one came to power. Check out how David entered into league with others to become the king of the 12 tribes and also how Solomon became a king only after lobbying.  And can you give us an example of a Christian in the Civil Service who never lobbied for that position one way or another?

David agitated for power  ? Only if God didn't ordain it!

TayoD:

For every example of the State arraigned against the believers that you give henceforth, I will provide you another example of the State in league with the true believers. I wish you'd quit making reference to the beast in Revelation 'because it is subject to varying interpretation. Your first submission on this suggests you are aware of this dilemma which made you use the phrase, "I believe".

True believers will never be in league with the state. Period! Even where there appears to be common cause or unity of purpose, it's not to the same end! There are two kingdoms at play here. It's madness.

The beast of Revelations maybe subject to varying interpretation, but only to which states/thrones/powers/nations it consists of, and not to the fact that it is earthly govermental power of some sort. Please advise of any varing interpretations on this point.

If I say I believe (and it should generally be taken as read anyway), it's just me saying I am open to additional understanding or hearing other interpretaions. Or perhaps I have not fully concluded on a particular position. I never claimed to know it all, in whole or in part. I just haven't swallowed anything wholesale like some appear to have done.

Lord, grace as well please!

@TV01,

More convoluted thinking here. A mixture of sloppy half-baked deductions and nonsensical conclusions. I have talkeed through the literal Word, shadow and fullfilling types and drawn a comprehensive and unified understanding from different perspectives. All this while humouring your "painting by numbers" approach to this whole exercise. Surely The lord is using me to teach you patience (although I am yet to figure out the point of some of the other gainsayers on this site !)

Half-baked deductions? I think not. You have failed to tell us any vocation or association in this world system that provides no compromise opportunities for the Christian, yet you say the christian should stay away only from Politics (though you also sited culture and commerce). So why not have us stay away from all instead of singling out politics? What evil do you see in poltics that is not manifest in other areas of life? You are yet to make this known, and I trust you will provide scriptural refernces as I have provided for mine.

Surely The lord is using me to teach you patience (although I am yet to figure out the point of some of the other gainsayers on this site !)

No thanks! My 14 month old son is already doing that. Doubt your ability to do a better job. I'm glad you at least know the Lord is not teaching me any scriptures from you 'cos there is no revelation from what you've been saying.

Perhaps you have an alternative explanation for the COE' total lack of spiritual credibility?

Compromise is due to a failing of the flesh not participation in politics. So what do you say of Christians who are not in politics but condone and practice homosexuality?

Again, please provide an alternative understanding. Additionally, Sexual Immorality generally (and not homosexuality alone or specifically) is the physical outworking of the spiritual adultery engaged in by many churches (by seving other gods). It's also compounded and evidenced by the man-made hierarchical structure of the Institutional Church. The fact that they are carnal and flesh driven is evidenced by their fruits;

The above is the 'gospel' according to TV01. Now let us hear the Gospel according to Saint Paul: Romans 1: 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I do not see politics amongst the list that Paul made. Do you think he forgot to include it? There is more in that scripture which I will point at as we go. I guess your statement here only proves my earlier submission right, that you believe politics and church structure is the root of all evil. May I ask what evil and fruits of the flesh that is manifest in the church today that was not manifest in the early churches? Please itemise them for us to scrutinize and bring up before the light of scripture.

All the above are abundant in the IC. Where does one begin. The paedophillia of RC, the excesses of Pentecostalism, the weakness of Anglicanism.  Is it the discarding of scripture, the abandonment of doctrine? or the "other Gospels" being peddled. See it in the power rifts, the empire building (jealousy, contentions and dissensions leading to denominationalism). The control, the manipulation (witchcraft by, tithing, submission false authority and submission precepts). The selfish ambition (that's right, the lust for riches & political power are just that, dress them up all you want). It's literally endless and blindingly (no pun!)obvious even to unbelievers.

Can you prove to us that none of these vices was present in the early churches? If you can do that, then I will begin to take you seriously.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus never mentioned politics in His message to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation? If it is the underlying cause of all these vices, don't you think He would have made mention of it? Or do you think He was planning that TV01 will be the Great Apostle of our time through whom He will reveal this mystery? 

David agitated for power  ? Only if God didn't ordain it!

Are you saying neither David nor solomon agitated for power though the throne was already given to them by God? I told you to go through your Bible again to find out about this.

True believers will never be in league with the state. Period! Even where there appears to be common cause or unity of purpose, it's not to the same end! There are two kingdoms at play here. It's madness.

Mmm. I guess we can now have Abraham, Isaac, Mordecai, Esther, Nehemiah, David etc removed from our list of true believers based on TV's new revelation. What effrontery! You sure convinced me that brashness and ignorance are an indivisible twin.

2. What God will demand is that you don't compromise your faith what ever person of institution you join yourself with. God only demands we obey laws that do not violate our obedience to Him. Your counter-intuitive and circuitous logic is exhausting! Is it all "blind faith" with you? No reason or understanding? Even a smidgin of common sense? In a country (and there are quite a few) that offers abortion on demand, is a A Christian medic right to perform such operations in "allegiance to Caesar and accordance with the law", or does such a one refuse on the grounds of allegiance to a higher authority!

Your highlighted statement is what I have been saying all along with regards to a Christian's participation in politics. I hope you understand the statement is a principle of general application. No country makes it unlawful for a Medic to choose not to perform an abortion. Most State laws only affrim the right of a woman to abort their babies. You are clearly mixing up different issues to confuse yourself further. Infact, most abortion clinics are separate from other hospitals and I believe no Christian works as a Doctor or nurse in those abortion clinics. Working there is by choice and not by law.

Apologies for not being more specific. I was specifically referring to Herod here.

The Bible was not specific with regards to the leaven of Herod. If however the Bible lumps the leaven of the Pharisees with that of Herod, I guess the leaven of Herod wont be too different from hypocrisy.

I believe I have amply provided it, and added depth. Please feel free to query specifics or ask for more detail.

What scripture is that again? All I have read here has been nothing but TV01's 11th Commandment - Thou shalt not participate in Politics.

In any case, you have still not provided us with a contemporary example to prove the outworking of your doctrinal position. Not only have I provided scriptures, I have pointed at Michelle Bachmann as a contemporary example of the practical outworking of my doctrinal position.

@TV01,

I have more questions for you:

1. Melchizedek was refered to as the King of Salem as well as the Priest of the Most High God. Why didn't God have a problem with his kingship? Please keep in mind you have stated specifically that the only earthly kingdom ever approved by God is the one of Isreal and Judah (after the break up of Isreal). And please be reminded that Melchizedek was a gentile King.

2. What was Paul talking about when he said And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

3. And what are the limitations imposed or implied on the scriptures that says: all things are yours?

Tayo D

True Christianity has no part in the rulership from the devil.

See what participation in politics have achieved for so called Christians who Jesus explicitly instructed to keep seprate from the world, have love among themselves and proclaim the only Goverment that God supports of, that of Jesus.

"Christian" Legislators vote for war to kill fellow 'Christians' in another country

"Christian" President signs war act against "Christians" in another country

"Christian" Soilders killing "Christian" Soilders of another country.

"Christians" praying to God to help their Nation win and Kill the Other "Christians" in the other country who are also praying that God help their own country kill the other "Christians" that are trying to kill them

And who says that the Devil does not have the last laugh.

He rules the world and all the Nationalistic divisions come from him.

The Bible always uses Beasts to represent human rulerships. Morden day so called "Christianity" has prostituted herself to the rulers of this world and have brought God's anger upon it, which these same political powers will execute on her.

What most people do here on this forum is an exercise in self righteousness, a complete exercise in Futility. If you cast your mind and reserch the history of Christiandom in General, you will see why she deserves every each of the Judgment that is awaiting her without fail.

Take a closer look and you will see why politics was not ment for true Christianity.

If you are talking about the Kings of Isreal in order to justify participation in politics you are dead wrong. Ask me and il tell you why.

@Sage,

The Bible always uses Beasts to represent human rulerships. Morden day so called "Christianity" has prostituted herself to the rulers of this world and have brought God's anger upon it, which these same political powers will execute on her.

Can you please provide scriptures to back up your claim? I tire for all these modern day 'moses' giving us their own commandment and on a quest to lead God's people out of Egypt again. Please wake up, we are not in Egypt. We are in the Seventh day and have entered into His rest. God's anger on the Church for participating in politics? I think not. Do you want a list from the Bible of what God ways He will judge?

What most people do here on this forum is an exercise in self righteousness, a complete exercise in Futility. If you cast your mind and reserch the history of Christiandom in General, you will see why she deserves every each of the Judgment that is awaiting her without fail.

Judgement awaiting the church? I thought I have heard and seen it all!! Which version of the Bible do you use that says the Church is appointed unto wrath? I hope you are not quoting Dan Brown or perhaps Harry Potter.

Take a closer look and you will see why politics was not ment for true Christianity.

I am yet to see any scripture that says Christians should not participate in politics. Do you realise that one of the gifts of the Spirit is the gift of government?

If you are talking about the Kings of Isreal in order to justify participation in politics you are dead wrong. Ask me and il tell you why.

There's a lot more that points to God's interest in how the nations are governed than just the kings of Isreal. And by the way, TV01 is the one to state that the throne of Judah is of God while the throne of Isreal is not. You might want to 'enlightene' him further.

True Christianity has no part in the rulership from the devil.

Do you consider as 'rulership from the devil' the same Government that the Bible refers as God's Servant? This your audacity pass me o.

See what participation in politics have achieved for so called Christians who Jesus explicitly instructed to keep seprate from the world, have love among themselves and proclaim the only Goverment that God supports of, that of Jesus.

Can you please define which world Jesus asked us to stay away from. Are you saying the world is synonymous with politics?

And who says that the Devil does not have the last laugh. He rules the world and all the Nationalistic divisions come from him.

E be like say you go write your own 'Bible' o. My scriptures tell me nationalistic divisions, culture and boundaries are established by God. Where are you quoting from? The quran? If you do have a copy of the Bible, please read Acts 17:26

@Tayo D

Check out the visions to Daniel. at chap 7. Beasts and power always represented human rulerships.

You cleverly dodged the points on so called "Christian" political leaders and "Christians" fighting and killing each other.

Did you just say that Nationalism comes from God and human rulership a gift of who?

Maybe the ffg passages will help you see that there is no middle ground b/w true Christianity and Politics.
Luke 4:5-7
John 6:15,14:30,15:19,17:16, 18:36, 2nd Corinthians4:4, 11:14,15
James 4:4, 1st John 5:19, 2:15-17, Rev 13:2.

Also settle down and read the Revelation to John about that great mother of harlots and her association with the political rulers of this world, how she has used spiritistic practices, falsehood and her political alliances TO MISLEAD THE WHOLE WORLD.

Why human rulership will always be a failure n y the only Goverment Christians should support is that of Jesus

Ecc 8:9, Jeremiah 10:23, Psalms 146:3,4


Christiandom and other false religious religions are prostituting themselves to political powers, and Christiandom rather than facing the fact that human rulerships n Goverments will be destroyed by God and his Son (Dan2:44, 7:13,14 Psalms 110:5, 2:8,9 John 14:30, Rev 13:12, 16:14-16, Eph 6:12), they are actively engaging in wordly politics and have ignored the commision Jesus gave to his faithful followers to proclaim about his incoming Kingdom alone.

CHRISTIANDOM IS CLEARLY A PART OF THAT HARLOT AND HAS BEEN RESERVED FOR GODS FIERY JUDGEMENT, ONCE AND FOR ALL, UNFAILINGLY AND DECISIVE. IT WILL BE UNDILUTED AND THE SHOCK OF HER DESTRUCTION BY THE SAME BEAST SHE IS PROSTITUTING HERSELF TO WILL RESOUND ACCROSS THE WORLD. ITZ GOING TO BE AN AWE INSPIRING EVENT.

I don't engage in protracted arguments of clear truths

Besides, the Nation of Isreal that later split into two had a purpose of producing the seed that was to redeem Mankind, and had to be kept pure of corrupting influences, both from the inside n outside, hence the law. Wars were waged with Gods approval to acheive that aim. ISREAL WAS A THEOCRACY RUN BY GOD AND WHEN THEY REFUSED HIS MESSIAH, HE ABBANDONED THEM.

Trying to use that to justify participation in the politics and wars of this world is faulty reasoning.

Some Identifying Marks of True Christianity

1 Seperate from the world (Both its Military aims and Politics)

2 Love among themselves (not through killings in Nationalistic wars)

3 Proclaiming the Message of God's Kingdom under his Son (Not lauding political entities)

4 Teachings coming from the Bible (Christiandom has woefully failed)

Infact Christiandom has largely failed on all fronts, and im wondering why it is such a suprise that she is well positioned for judgement by God.

TV01 identified excesses and cracks in many Churches. I guess he smells what i am smelling. Christiandom, like an unfaithful messenger, and a harlot has largely disregarded the word of God and the commission of Jesus for various unbiblical pursuits. She would be weighed and found wanting and destroyed.

Anyways Tayo D

Most members of this Religious forum spend their time ridiculing Islam and engaging in a futile exercise of self righteousness rather than taking their time and studying the Bible which will let them see why Christiandom is in the same boat with the very same Islam that they are ridiculing, and other pagan religions, ie headed towards destruction.

Part of the reason why i avoided this section in this forum was that people, esp those who think they are following Jesus
is that they argue blindly to what would otherwise be a clear truth, but i enjoyed the mannerly discussion b/w you and TV01 and that threw mw head long into this forum 4 now.
I might not stay long.

@Sage,

Check out the visions to Daniel. at chap 7. Beasts and power always represented human rulerships.

Please remove the word 'always' from that your statement. This is how people fall into error when they carry over the context of one passage into another. The Beasts do not always refer to governments as you have said. In the Book of Revelation, we find some four beasts who are evidently a kind of Cherub in the service of God. Going by your 'always' submission, are we to refer to them as human government? I think not. REading a passage in context is what provides understanding of the Bible.

You cleverly dodged the points on so called "Christian" political leaders and "Christians" fighting and killing each other.

I am glad you not only refer to Christain political leaders but other Christians fighting and killing each other. In other words, it is not the politics that is at fault, there must be some underlying vices causing this. Like TV01, you are quick to condemn politics when infact, the root causes of the sins are something else. Politics is only being used by those who have the means, and those who don't find other means to do what is in their heart to do.

Did you just say that Nationalism comes from God and human rulership a gift of who?

Didn't you read Acts 17:28? Read 1 Corinthians 12:28 to find out about the the gifts of the Spirit which includes government.

Maybe the ffg passages will help you see that there is no middle ground b/w true Christianity and Politics.
Luke 4:5-7' John  6:15,14:30,15:19,17:16, 18:36, 2nd Corinthians4:4, 11:14,15
James 4:4, 1st John 5:19, 2:15-17, Rev 13:2.
.

Some of the passages deal with the contrast between the 'world' (not politics) and Christians. I have asked you before if you are implying that the 'world' is synonymous with politics. The Bible definition of the 'world' is found in 1 John 2:15-17 that you have quoted above. Please read it and just believe it instead of applying your own interpretation to it. The Luke 4 scripture confirms that the kingdoms of the world was delivered to Satan. Doesn't that tell you that it originally belong to someone else? The kingdoms in his hands came about through his ministry of stealing, killing and destroying. But what he has stolen, we shall receive 7-fold. The reason why the crowd wanted to make Jesus King is because they rightly understood that the Messiah will reign as an earthly King from Jerusalem. Jesus knew that the time wasn't then and that is why He refused their request. Every other scriptures you mentioned are just refering to the 'world' whose definition is the lust of the flesh, eyes and the pride of life and not politics as you will have us believe. Again, the Beast you refer to in Rev 13:2 is the Anti-Christ and not a worldly kingdom.

Also settle down and read the Revelation to John about that great mother of harlots and her association with the political rulers of this world, how she has used spiritistic practices, falsehood and her political alliances TO MISLEAD THE WHOLE WORLD.

The great mother of harlots in revelation does not refer to the Church. Is that what you have been indoctrinated with? That harlot is a City, a physical geographic location. The Angel revealed this much to John in Revelation 17:18. Besides, the Church of God is already raptured to heaven at this stage.

Why human rulership will always be a failure n y the only Goverment Christians should support is that of Jesus
Ecc 8:9, Jeremiah 10:23, Psalms 146:3,4 

Unfortunately, you will have to wait till the millennial Kingdom for Jesus' Government on earth. His desire for now is that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If politics is a tool to be used by the Christian to further His will on earth, so be it. Like money, politics is a tool to be used for good or evil and they both have great influence. We will negotiate, we will persuade, we will agitate within the ambit allowed by our conscience to establish God's will on earth while not neglecting our duty of evangelism.

Christiandom and other false religious religions are prostituting themselves to political powers, and Christiandom rather than facing the fact that human rulerships n Goverments will be destroyed by God and his Son (Dan2:44, 7:13,14 Psalms 110:5, 2:8,9 John 14:30, Rev 13:12, 16:14-16, Eph 6:12), they are actively engaging in wordly politics and have ignored the commision Jesus gave to his faithful followers to proclaim about his incoming Kingdom alone.

You have a fundanmental flaw in your theology which I will try to set straight for you now. All the scriptures you refer to are end time events and Jesus clearly says that the end time events will revolve around the Jews as a nation, and other nations of the earth. How you have come to involve the Church which is at that point raptured is beyond comprehension for me. See Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Isreal), and all the trees (other nations);

CHRISTIANDOM IS CLEARLY A PART OF THAT HARLOT AND HAS BEEN RESERVED FOR GODS FIERY JUDGEMENT, ONCE AND FOR ALL, UNFAILINGLY AND DECISIVE. IT WILL BE UNDILUTED AND THE SHOCK OF HER DESTRUCTION BY THE SAME BEAST SHE IS PROSTITUTING HERSELF TO WILL RESOUND ACCROSS THE WORLD. ITZ GOING TO BE AN AWE INSPIRING EVENT.

As I have proved severally above, Christianity is not the harlot nor a part of it. Christians do not live in a single city which the harlot represents. Christians will stand before the Reward Seat of Christ and not the White Throne Judgement of the nations and people. Please get your doctrine straightened out.

I don't engage in protracted arguments of clear truths

How I wish all you've said bear some form of resemblance to the truth.

Tayo D

Your response is part of the reason why Christiandom is going to suffer Judgement. It has abandoned teaching its followers truth from the Bible and left them wanting for truth.

You acknowledged that the rulership of this world is in the hands of Satan and that he gives it to whom he wants, that so called Christian politicians fight and kill each other, and that Jesus refused participation in human rulership and all early Christians avoided politics BUT still you are looking for a way to explain it away.

Well like i said before arguing on a religious forum is sometimes not worth it at all but il add this to you.

Babylon the Great is NOT a geographical location. Ancient Babylon was known for pagan doctrines like Triad Gods, Immortality of the soul, use of images in worship, beign in opposition to true worship etc.

Babylon the Great, which Christiandom is a prominent part has adopted these unbiblical teachings as core teachings.

It has influence and is decieving the whole world and has made political alliances with the rulers of this world.

The beast of revelation was given rulership by the devil in to rule the whole world. Revelation clearly shows that that beast refers to human rulership.

Babylon the Great has used false practices to decieve THE WHOLE WORLD. A Good example is the one we are talking about. They make people think it is ok for True Christianity to wallow in Satans political realms.

She has become a Harlot by joining in politics, rather than lauding the only Goverment that God supports.
The beast(human rulership) that recieved power from the devil will hate the Harlot(False religion with Christiandom in the forefront) and would destroy them all.

Tayo D as shocking as it is, its true though.

Peace

God plans to destroy all human Goverments anyway. Christiandom is too scared to acknowledge that, but rather choses to be a prostitute and align with these goverments in oppsition to the only rightful Goverment and would be destroyed too



Like i said b/4, Marks of true Christianity include

Seprateness from the world (For which true Christians would be persecuted)

Love amongst themselves (No room for nationalistic politics and wars)

Devoted fully to carrying out the one commision of Jesus (not aligning with human rulership and rooting for them)

Base their teachings on the Bible (Most of Christiandom's teachings and practices are pagan and have no bearing on the bible)


Christiandom is now totally disgusting in the sight of God and her professed master Jesus. Her involvment in politics will turn around and destroy her and then it will shock the whole world.
Christiandom, like 1st Century Judaism represents compromised religion and will be destroyed by political powers, the very same way the first century Jewish system that taught it had Gods favour was destroyed by her political alliances.

Itz shocking i know but so it was to 1st century Jews who taught they had Gods favor.

True Christianity and politics CAN NEVER MIX. It is no longer true Christianity if the two come together.

Politics of this world is up for destuction as well as all alliances including the Harlot that is scared of letting the Nations know of God judgement.

When the Bible says that Satan and the Harlot influence and MISLEAD THE WHOLE WORLD WITH FALSE PRACTICES AND BELIEFS it is not talking about some people hidden in some Arabian lands. It includes the billions of masses that think that they are following Christ.


If you take time and go through the Bible, you will see that Christiandom has deviated far away from what true Christianity should be and deserves every inch of the Judgement awaiting her.

This is a clear case and should not be confusing to to an avid Bible student.


THE NATIONS ARE FASHIONING OUT WEAPONS FOR THEIR OWN GAIN AND PURPOSES WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR GOD'S KINGDOM UNDER HIS SON NOR GOD'S PURPOSES FOR THE EARTH. TO ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THEY DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS RIGHTFUL RULERSHIP BUT SPEND ALL THEIR TIME IN FUTILE NATIONALISTIC PURSUITS.

TRUE CHRISTIANITY HAS NO PART IN THAT.

Dis guy TV01, i dont know wat to call u? u distort facts. above all u have chosen to acknowlegde true principled arguments. It does not matter how u view Christians and Politics, the fact is that christians live in a world that everything that happens in affects them, whether u want to believe it or not.
Jesus said "Give unto Ceaser what belongs to Ceaser and unto God what belongs to God" I want to ask u, Which one have u done?
Even Jesus Himself acknowlegded that u have to do the "act of given smrthing to Ceaser" in the first place. U have to participate in paying tax. If u have the right to pay tax, what stops u from demanding how the tax u paid is used?? The way to demand how ur tax money is used in through the instrumentality of politics, u can call it anything but the bottom line is politics.
Jesus parents shortly before he was born was involved in a census organised and directed by Ceaser's government, ask urself, why didnt they opt out of the exercise. Afterall it was organised "under" Ceaser.
To serve a God who is "The possessor of the whole world" and be under the delusion that you cannot participate in making decisions that affects it because it is under some carnal influence is to run away from the truth. That is what your whole argument points to.
Bush won the US election against Kerry in 2004 because of his Christian conservative background. I acknowlegde that satan has had so much influnce in the way the whole world is being governed. But i reject in its entirety that because of that Christians should not participate in politics. If that is so we will never get to know of Chritian political heroes like Abraham Lincoln, John Quincy Adams and Benjamin Franklin whose Christian backgrounds helped shaped the greatness of the American nation.
U sound very much academic, but the reasons for your doctrines concerning this topic is cluesless and based on the fictions of your own mind. Thats regretable.

TayoD:

@TV01,
Half-baked deductions? I think not. You have failed to tell us any vocation or association in this world system that provides no compromise opportunities for the Christian, yet you say the christian should stay away only from Politics (though you also sited culture and commerce). So why not have us stay away from all instead of singling out politics? What evil do you see in poltics that is not manifest in other areas of life? You are yet to make this known, and I trust you will provide scriptural refernces as I have provided for mine.

I went to great lengths to dinstinguish between the temptation to compromise in some situations or arena's  and the wholesale corrupt and evil nature of others. The one you chart using biblical wisdom and discernment. The same biblical wisdom and discernment suggests one is best served by fleeing the other. Enough said.

TayoD:

No thanks! My 14 month old son is already doing that. Doubt your ability to do a better job. I'm glad you at least know the Lord is not teaching me any scriptures from you 'because there is no revelation from what you've been saying.

Apologies here, my bad. I meant to say "God is using you to teach me patience". I found the error as soon as I read the posted reply and modified immediately, but you had already replied. Sorry again, but's it's good to know you hang around eagerly awaiting my posts  .

TayoD:

Compromise is due to a failing of the flesh not participation in politics. So what do you say of Christians who are not in politics but condone and practice homosexuality?

Please read me correctly. I never said politics is the root or cause of anything. I am however saying pursuit of worldly political power is a clearly outworking of carnal inclinations.

Funny, in the world men say religion and politics are the cause of all the worlds woes. Religion (in the perjorative, building temples, mediatory priests, sacrifices etc. etc,) and politics are very much the same. Exploitative, manipulative, oppressive and controlloing.

The people to be found ascendng denominational religious hierarchies are of exactly the same nature as those who lust for worldly political power. It's no wonder they cosy up to one another so much, with the ultimate reality being that they become one flesh! Shameless, unabashed harlotry!.

As for Christians who are not in politics but condone/practice homosexuality, I'd say the following;
1. Show me some
2. The politics of IC is at once with the World, but also within. Not only, but also  !
3. God gives over to homosexuality those who have utterly rejected Him. That should make you think
    long and hard about those who practise these things in the IC! Is it a coincidence that the older
    and more carnal/perverted the religious tradition, the worse the form of sexual immorality?

TayoD:

The above is the 'gospel' according to TV01. Now let us hear the Gospel according to Saint Paul: Romans 1: 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
I do not see politics amongst the list that Paul made. Do you think he forgot to include it? There is more in that scripture which I will point at as we go. I guess your statement here only proves my earlier submission right, that you believe politics and church structure is the root of all evil. May I ask what evil and fruits of the flesh that is manifest in the church today that was not manifest in the early churches? Please itemise them for us to scrutinize and bring up before the light of scripture.

The posted scripture merely serves to buttress my point above.

And like I said, politics is not the cause, (that is flesh), it's an outworking/manifestation! Likewise IC structure. The desire to sit over, control and exploit God's people is driven by the flesh. As ever TayoD, you get us so bogged down in entry-level stuff that we cannot go on to dig deeper. All of this ties into church structure, use of redundant OT precepts, the Nicolaitian error and such. But you never let us get there.

Let me digress a little. It's important that doctrine/theology is end-to-end. That is to say the doctrine must not contradict or nullify other doctrine, must not only comply, but also not be contrary to the scriptural narrative and must at the same time bear the right fruit in practice.  There must be a unified whole in perfect alignment, otherwise the Bible is wrong or the interpretation is incorrect. Discarding the possibility of error in the scripture, then our interpretations must be re-examined.

You appear to adopt a "back-to-front" approach. Champining tradition and them justify it by cobbling scripture from any and everywhere! A point blank refusal to consider or reappraise positions that may be mistaken is an obvious sign of deep traditional religiosity.

You stymied the discussion on tithing by encamping semantically around the word "gift" and refusing to budge. That was after all your other postulations (including the esoteric "decalogue" exposition), where systematically shredded by a host of very patient contributors. We never got to discussing, how the tithe supports control and exploitation (along with false submission and authority precepts) of Gods people. How it finances the fixation with temples in a NT era (If you are party to the £10 million pound exercise in vanity by "Jesus House" tell the charlatans behind it that Jesus doesn't have a physical house and God no longer dwells in temples built with hands!). How it supports the totally unbiblical notion of a paid and professional clergy (mediators other than our Great HP) and derides the priesthood of all believers. We could go on and on, but with a focus firmly on carnal man-made tradition & precepts (which is too say "on men", TayoD keeps the discussion grounded. Which truly is nol onger a surprise, as your whole basis has remained unrelentingly earthly!

God bless

@Sage,

True Christianity and politics CAN NEVER MIX. It is no longer true Christianity if the two come together.
Politics of this world is up for destuction as well as all alliances including the Harlot that is scared of letting the Nations know of God judgement.
When the Bible says that Satan and the Harlot influence and MISLEAD THE WHOLE WORLD WITH FALSE PRACTICES AND BELIEFS it is not talking about some people hidden in some Arabian lands. It includes the billions of masses that think that they are following Christ.
If you take time and go through the Bible, you will see that Christiandom has deviated far away from what true Christianity should be and deserves every inch of the Judgement awaiting her.
This is a clear case and should not be confusing to to an avid Bible student.
THE NATIONS ARE FASHIONING OUT WEAPONS FOR THEIR OWN GAIN AND PURPOSES WITHOUT ANY REGARD FOR GOD'S KINGDOM UNDER HIS SON NOR GOD'S PURPOSES FOR THE EARTH. TO ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THEY DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS RIGHTFUL RULERSHIP BUT SPEND ALL THEIR TIME IN FUTILE NATIONALISTIC PURSUITS.
TRUE CHRISTIANITY HAS NO PART IN THAT.

Politics of the world is for destruction? Paul said otherwise. He said Ceasar is a Minister of God to thee for good. so who should I believe, you or Apostle Paul?
As I said, the Church is already raptured at the time the Bible reveals the harlot. So saying the church is a part of that harlot is turning the Bible on its head.
For the church, mercy triumphs over judgement. and for your information, the Bible decalres that Jesus is coming for a glorious church without spot or wrinkle. So how such a church can be a harlot is beyond comprehension.
Nations are not told to acknowledge the rightful rulership of Jesus until the Millenial Kingdom. Individuals are the once required to be born again and not nations. It seems like you just can't wait to enter that Millenial kingdom.

Your response is part of the reason why Christiandom is going to suffer Judgement. It has abandoned teaching its followers truth from the Bible and left them wanting for truth.
You acknowledged that the rulership of this world is in the hands of Satan and that he gives it to whom he wants, that so called Christian politicians fight and kill each other, and that Jesus refused participation in human rulership and all early Christians avoided politics BUT still you are looking for a way to explain it away.

Wait, wait wait. That passage in Luke 4 about the kingdoms being delivered to Satan is not the end of the story o. Have you forgitten the cross? Do you think Jesus died so the kingdoms will remain with the enemy? I think not. See Hebrews 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,  and Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  Do yousee that He did not destroy the kingdoms as you have said, but rather took over the kingdoms?

Besides, the Nation of Isreal that later split into two had a purpose of producing the seed that was to redeem Mankind, and had to be kept pure of corrupting influences, both from the inside n outside, hence the law. Wars were waged with Gods approval to acheive that aim.  ISREAL WAS A THEOCRACY RUN BY GOD AND WHEN THEY REFUSED HIS MESSIAH, HE ABBANDONED THEM.
Trying to use that to justify participation in the politics and wars of this world is faulty reasoning.

I need to make this clear again. I am not advocating theocracy nor saying the church as an institution should take over government. Rather, I am saying Christians should as a matter of neccesity partake in government which is acheived through the means of politics. How are we to be the salt and light of the world if we leave out the single most important influence on the people?

Politics and being in government in not synonymous with the world or sin. Jesus didn't say "it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a politician to enter the kigdom of God. Neither did He say "you cannot serve God and Politics" in place of mammon.  Despite the fact that Jesus refered to mammon as unrighteous, He still asked that we use it and make friends with it to achieve our own godly means and end.  Luke 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

TayoD:

Can you prove to us that none of these vices was present in the early churches? If you can do that, then I will begin to take you seriously.

1. There were no denominational affiliations in primitive Christianity. The only grouping of believers was geographical (by location). And service, ministering were also local, no jet-setting hustlers!
2. There was no controlling hierarchy, only a modelling form of leadership by suitably qualified males.No carnal constructs like GO, Pope, Superintendant, Cardinal and the like.
3. There was no obsession with physical temples and the attendant mediatory ministry and sacrifices.
In fact no fixation with redundant OT precepts, which means most so called XT and IC today are in truth "wannabe Jews", which they can never qualify to be, and not really XT which they claim to be.
4. There was no worship of mammon through bogus "prosperity", "total health and well-being" and "next level" gospels.
5. No mention anywhere of religious hucksters or snake oil salesman with fried hair and cheap suits!

And on and on!

TayoD:

Have you ever wondered why Jesus never mentioned politics in His message to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation? If it is the underlying cause of all these vices, don't you think He would have made mention of it? Or do you think He was planning that TV01 will be the Great Apostle of our time

Answered severally (again!) in my previous post. Worldly political engagement is an outworking!

No, there are no more Apostles. What the Apostles/Apostolic is about is foundational. The foundations have been laid. Think "No other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid which is Christ Jesus" And "Being built on the foundation of the Apostles, Christ being the chief cornerstone".  

TayoD:

Mmm. I guess we can now have Abraham, Isaac, Mordecai, Esther, Nehemiah, David etc removed from our list of true believers based on TV's new revelation. What effrontery! You sure convinced me that brashness and ignorance are an indivisible twin.

Don't forget Joseph & Daniel!

Keep on distorting scripture and context to justify naked lust for money and power. I wonder how you can have the same imperatives as mobsters, punk rockers, gangsta rappers and the like and think such notions are XTian?

I discovered that whilst engaging you on "tithing", "SAP & Church structure" and numerous other posts. As ever, you are always way behind the pace!

TayoD:

The Bible was not specific with regards to the leaven of Herod. If however the Bible lumps the leaven of the Pharisees with that of Herod, I guess the leaven of Herod wont be too different from hypocrisy.
What scripture is that again?

Actually it was, if you don't see it, ask for revelation, seek understanding, do the research. Don't just argue blindly or glibly discard the Bible as being "not specific". It didn't lump them together (it also mentions the leaven of the Saducees), but even if it did, is that not a clear warning against involvement?

TayoD:

In any case, you have still not provided us with a contemporary example to prove the outworking of your doctrinal position. Not only have I provided scriptures, I have pointed at Michelle Bachmann as a contemporary example of the practical outworking of my doctrinal position.

I'll obligingly re-post a previous submission after this.

God bless.

I often stress the importance of extrapolating the practical outworking of any doctrinal position. After all, it’s a living faith. A doctrine that on the surface sounds plausible, but does not translate when reality bites, is nothing more than religious procedure.

I think we’ve had some great discussions/debates on this forum, but I am often left with a sense of disappointment as (whether by default, design or dedevil) we never seem to progress to the point of articulating how our various positions work in the real world, be it in our individual walks, or in Body dynamics.

So whilst we are on the practicality of uncompromised XT involvement in the political arena, I'll have a stab at it.

I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to the current polemic around “gay/lesbian adoption” in Britain.

I want to briefly outline my understanding of the roles and positions of some of the major parties in this imbroglio (best knowledge at the time of writing and correction if required is welcome) and use it as a fillip to re-start and progress the debate.

The Roman Catholic Church ~There are currently a number of Roman Catholic adoption agencies, who at this time (due to their religious beliefs) do not consider gay/lesbian couples for adoption.

New legislation is being passed, which will mean the RC agencies compromising on their beliefs and being legally forced to allow gay/lesbians to adopt through them (or possibly shutting down).

The Anglican (CofE) Church ~ Adoption agencies for this denomination currently allow gay/lesbian couples to adopt. I believe they have for some time now. I have pointed out severally, that the wholesale yoking of the CofE to the state has left it so compromised, that it is little more than a QUANGO. A church in name only, whose light is deep underground and barely flickering.

Weirdly enough, they are championing the RC right to act according to their beliefs. A clear-cut example of their hand-wringing indecisiveness, inability to articulate a clear, uncompromised faith based or moral position, and desire to please everyone but the One they purport to serve. Sadly these days, the CofE seems more comfortable mirroring prevailing societal/cultural trends than witnessing Gods judgement and the love of Christ to them.

The Government ~ Since the advent of the Labour party to power, Britain has been gripped by a weird, virulent form of PC. This has seen their barely disguised humanist manifesto (truly ideology is the new theology), wreak havoc on the family, empower the gay lobby and dispense with any pretence of a moral compass this country might have.

The Labour party’s relentless drive for universal “equality” and “human rights” for all, whilst sounding plausible on the surface (much like the doctrine of many on this forum !), is contrary to Gods divine order. The logical outworking of this has been to insist on legislating equal rights of adoption for gay/lesbian couples.

It seems likely now that by a quorum (that's democracy for you) within the cabinet this law will be passed wholesale, without a clause for the RC church to act according to their faith/religious/philosophical conscience. That is, they will be forced to compromise or close.

Very interesting, are the positions of two of the major players in this saga.

1. The Right Honourable Tony Blair PM ~ An Anglican (with a Catholic family?), if not a devout one or even a dilligently practicing one. The PM had made it known via various information sources (leaks!), that he was personally in favour of a religious clause, which would have made special allowance for the churches, exempting them on the basis of their religious beliefs.

2. The RH Ruth Kelly MP Cabinet Minister for Communities ~ Forced into the limelight when she became minister for education at 35. Extra focus due to the issue of “Faith Schools” and her own devout Catholicism and membership of Opus Dei, a Catholic fraternity(?), whose activities are well documented. Her position was more or less the same as the PM’s.

The wishes of both (theological) have been subsumed to that of the party (ideological). So what I see here is an example of the futility of Christian Politics. It can only lead to all round compromise and blighted witness.

Would anyone here consider TB to be a Daniel? Or RK an Esther? You'll play "spot the Nehemiah" in vain. Is anybody expecting resignations henceforth? So, while you may ascend to the highest echelons of political power, will you be right? rarely, honourable? unlikely. Politically correct? maybe, but religiously? I think religion would have ceased to be your motivation a long time ago.

As ever I look forward to hearing different perspectives.

God bless

At Tayo D keep on denying the truth.

What Spotless church . The one currently mired and soiled from the politics of this world.

If you want to really know what God plans to do with human rulership READ THE FFG SCRIPTURES ESP Rev, i posted it for you before n il post it again

Christiandom and other false religious religions are prostituting themselves to political powers, and Christiandom rather than facing the fact that human rulerships n Goverments will be destroyed by God and his Son (Dan2:44, 7:13,14 Psalms 110:5, 2:8,9 John 14:30, Rev 13:12, 16:14-16, Eph 6:12), they are actively engaging in wordly politics and have ignored the commision Jesus gave to his faithful followers to proclaim about his incoming Kingdom alone

When the Bible says that the Harlot and Satan join hans in misleading the whole world, for something written two thousand years ago, its very fufilment has unfolded even right in front of our eyes, even right here on this forum.

JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES PAYED TAXES, PAUL HAD A TENT MAKING BUSINESS.

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS

1 PARTICIPATED IN POLITICS OF ANYFORM

2 SUPPORTED ANY HUMAN GOVERMENT OF ANY SORT.

3 JOIN IN MILITARY SERVICE TO ANY NATION

4 PRAYED FOR THE WELL BEIGN OF THER "NATION" EVEN WHEN THEIR "NATION" WAS UNDER ATTACK.

5 PLEDGED ALLIGIANCE TO ANY NATION

THESE THINGS ARE INCOMPACTIBLE WITH TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

Jesus and his apostles had the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick, render righteous judgement, comfort the depressed etc

If participation in human politics and rulership was acceptable according to what you guyz are claiming, they should have taken on rulership and SHOWN OTHERS HOW TO RULE, BUT DID THEY? NO, THEY FLED FROM POLITICS LIKE IT WAS A PLAGUE COZ THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COULD ONLY PLEDGE ALLIGIANCE TO ONE SINGLE GOVERMENT, THAT OF GOD.

THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT HUMAN RULERSHIP WAS WAS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE DEVIL AND COULD THAT THEY COULD NOT EVEN TOUCH IT WITH A ONE MILE POLE.

CHRISTIADOM IS ON A ONE WAY ROAD NOW, HEADED STRAIGHT OFF INTO DESTRUCTION ALONG WITH ALL HUMAN GOVERMENTS.

The 1st century christians were persecuted fiercly by both the Jewish system, and the Roman state for their not pledging alligiance to the state. But they chose to die than take part in human politics.

Jesus prayed for Gods kingdom to come, the only Goverment that true Christians should pledge alligiance to. When that kingdom starts to rule on Earth, then the kingdoms of this world will indeed become the kingdom of our Lord.

The more i discuss about this the more i see why Christiandoms judgement by God will have no Mercy in it. She deserves it every single step of the way. What a wicked Harlot

Hi TayoD, you said

I have more questions for you:

1. Melchizedek was refered to as the King of Salem as well as the Priest of the Most High God. Why didn't God have a problem with his kingship? Please keep in mind you have stated specifically that the only earthly kingdom ever approved by God is the one of Isreal and Judah (after the break up of Isreal). And please be reminded that Melchizedek was a gentile King.

2. What was Paul talking about when he said And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

3. And what are the limitations imposed or implied on the scriptures that says: all things are yours?

I have some answers for you. In turn using your nomenclature

1.
Assuming your assumptions here are correct (I am not saying they are), answer as follows. Why would God have a problem have Melchizedeks kingship? There are always going to be thrones, rulers and the like. The fact that God does not (has not yet) summarily anhilated them, means nothng more than the fact He is content to let them exist and seconds them to His will as He see’s fit.

Furthermore, I never said that the only earthly kingdom God ever approved of was Israel, be that as Israel as a whole or the split into Israel & Judah. I had a long running discussion with 4get_me about this, so let me just re-iterate my position.

God gave a theocracy (thanks syrup!). It was the will of the Israelites to have a king like the surrounding nations. In as much as God acceded to their request, He warned them of the cost & consequences (I Samuel 8 I believe). During that discussion (and I still do) I saw this as a form of judgment (and a warning to all that would have/enthrone kings over them other than the Lord ~ MOGwipesuckups take heed!).
So, to summarise, although God has seen fit to allow (not approve) human thrones & kingdoms to be established, that’s not to say that I personally believe that he intrinsically approves of any of them (I don’t see it as His perfect will). And we all know that ultimately they will all be done away with and there will be only one!

As for referring to Melchizedek as a “gentile king” yet at once as “Priest of the Most High God” suggests you need to think this through. There is/was nothing ever stopping gentiles worshipping God (I stand to be corrected here). Furthermore, at that point in time wasn’t everyone a “gentile?

2.
I see this as nothing more than an exhortation to live simply in the world. Not to rapaciously consume, become enslaved, or set your store in the things of or in it. There may even be a hint of being environmentally sensitive if you like.

In context it may be primarily about things that we celebrate/pursue socio-culturally (even though marriage is divinely instituted, it is also a social imperative). I certainly don’t see it as supporting in any way the point you are attempting to make, if anything the contrary. However, if you have an alternative explanation, please say on.

3.
Again, I think one needs to subject their application of scripture to 360 degree scrutiny. Does “All things are yours” mean everything? The good as well as the bad? The perfect and the flawed? All things are lawful, but are all expedient? Does it mean we can discard discernment, wisdom and any form of spiritual judgment and just lay hold of or engage in any activity?

In context, it’s an exhortation against division (denominationalism). The same verse says death is ours, should that be taken to mean we can kill or should commit suicide en-mass to facilitate our advent to heaven? Does money answers everything truly mean that money answers everything?

I fail to see thorough end-to-end thinking here. Neither do I sense a willingness to subject your position to scrutiny, not to mention the usual back to front (adopt a position and try and make the scripture fit!) approach you appear to favour. No gainsaying, but if you have a deeper revelation, I am eager to hear it

God bless

TV01, while deciding to side-step on this discussion and watch from the terrace, I was hoping the discussion will progress more constructively.  Moreso, when in one of your earlier posts on the thread 'Is God a politician', before the discussion was transferred here, you made a comment of fighting a war on many fronts!  I then decided to leave the discussion to between you and TayoD because he was speaking my mind as well, and as such, there was no need to duplicate efforts, so that the discussion could be more focussed.

However, as much as we (all of us) try to defend our positions, there is also need to be more careful when projecting such positions, as there are many reading the posts and are getting informed and enlightened as well.  This is why such statements of yours like the one below should have been better framed, to reflect that it's your own opinion:

No, there are no more Apostles. What the Apostles/Apostolic is about is foundational. The foundations have been laid. Think "No other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid which is Christ Jesus" And "Being built on the foundation of the Apostles, Christ being the chief cornerstone".

Trying to make such a claim like this and seemingly justifying it by a part-quotation of a scripture that does not even support it, is at best misinforming! Who says there are no more apostles?  The word apostle is taken from the Greek word 'apostolos' which, acoording to Strong's Greek Dictionary, means:

'a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (apostle) (with miraculous powers) -- apostle, messenger, he that is sent'.

Yes, there are 12 officially chosen by Our Lord.  But after these, there were many more in the New Testament and the early church.

This is the full text of that passage you tried to quote:

Ephe. 2
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Note that the foundation is laid by the apostles and the prophets, not just the apostles, as you would have us believe!  What follows in Chapter 4 of the same book, by the same writer is of importance.

Ephe. 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

The apostles are gifts to the church, just as the prophets, evangelists and so on.  To say there are no more apostles is to say there are no more other gifts to the church.  I can't find any scripture that supports your position, and certainly not this one you quoted in Ephesians.

The pupose and duration of the various gifts, all of which are still operating today, is very clear and unambigous.  Check verses 11 and 12 very well.  Have we all attained to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ?  NO.  Are there saints to be equipped yet, for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ? YES.  Then the gifts are still very much alive!

By the way, Sage your views tend more to those of Jehovah's Witnesses and TV01 more to those of the Brethren (Christ Churches).  Correct me if am wrong please.

[P.S.  I don't intend to divert the topic, but to correct an error by TV01]

Analytical:

TV01, while deciding to side-step on this discussion and watch from the terrace, I was hoping the discussion will progress more constructively.  Moreso, when in one of your earlier posts on the thread 'Is God a politician', before the discussion was transferred here, you made a comment of fighting a war on many fronts!  I then decided to leave the discussion to between you and TayoD because he was speaking my mind as well, and as such, there was no need to duplicate efforts, so that the discussion could be more focussed.

Are you suggesting it is not progressing as you would have hoped? Please feel free to moderate.

My saying "I am fighting on many fronts" was not to meant to forbear anyone posting. On the contrary, the more positors the merrier. It makes for a robust discussion.

I don't think either TayoD or myself have ever considered this to be a discussion between just the two of us, or at any time suggested to others they merely "siddon look".

I read your points on "Apostles" and won't bother to respond in full here. But let me ask you this;
                "What does an Apostle do (how do they function) in this age"?

Analytical:

By the way, Sage your views tend more to those of Jehovah's Witnesses and TV01 more to those of the Brethren (Christ Churches).  Correct me if am wrong please.

You are wrong regards my denominational views. I don't belong to any denomination and I discuss each doctrinal position on it's merits, not on it's denomination or MOG endorsement! If I happen to have points of convergence or divergence with any tradition, rest assured it's merely coincidence. Stand corrected sir!

Analytical:

[P.S.  I don't intend to divert the topic, but to correct an error by TV01]

So as not to divert the topic and at the same time fully correct my error, please open a thread answering my question above and I'll be happy to engage you there.

God bless.

Neither you nor TayoD  suggested we 'siddon look', but I opted to because my views and his on the topic were the same.  I thought I made that clear above and on that thread by the posts I made.

You are wrong regards my denominational views. I don't belong to any denomination and I discuss each doctrinal position on it's merits, not on it's denomination or MOG endorsement! If I happen to have points of convergence or divergence with any tradition, rest assured it's merely coincidence. Stand corrected sir!

I stand corrected sir!  But still curious, where do you worship/fellowship?  Or do you have a church in your house?   

"What does an Apostle do (how do they function) in this age"?

So as not to divert the topic and at the same time fully correct my error, please open a thread answering my question above and I'll be happy to engage you there.

I have made my point.  You are not right all the time, you know?  I wonder why you would single out the gift of an apostle (and leave the rest!) for abolishment, simply because you don't seem to understand their importance in this age! 

In the spirit of Christ, one should own up to a mistake, especially one that's so glaring and scripturally baseless like this one, instead of further engaging in an exercise in futility, moreso when it is borne out of a desire to win an argument and not to edify.

Topic, please!!

@ Analytical,

Analytical:

Neither you nor TayoD suggested we 'siddon look', but I opted to because my views and his on the topic were the same. I thought I made that clear above and on that thread by the posts I made.

I stand corrected sir! But still curious, where do you worship/fellowship? Or do you have a church in your house?
So as not to divert the topic and at the same time fully correct my error, please open a thread answering my question above and I'll be happy to engage you there.

I have made my point. You are not right all the time, you know? I wonder why you would single out the gift of an apostle (and leave the rest!) for abolishment, simply because you don't seem to understand their importance in this age!

In the spirit of Christ, one should own up to a mistake, especially one that's so glaring and scripturally baseless like this one, instead of further engaging in an exercise in futility, moreso when it is borne out of a desire to win an argument and not to edify.

Topic, please!!

GOD bless YOU!!!!

You said it all without the interjection of slight slanders to TV01 as I would have done to his case.

Analytical:

I stand corrected sir!  But still curious, where do you worship/fellowship?  Or do you have a church in your house?  

Curious about my religious affiliation hey? I haven't heard you boldly proclaim yours?
Maybe I do have a church in my house? Would you consider that a scripturally unsound thing?

Analytical:

I have made my point.  You are not right all the time, you know?  I wonder why you would single out the gift of an apostle (and leave the rest!) for abolishment, simply because you don't seem to understand their importance in this age!

Actually you haven't made any such thing. All you did was cut and paste scripture. Now I am offering you the opportunity to both correct me and make your point. I am more than willing to concede I may not be right, but to demonstrate a deeper understanding, please answer the question as posited. Your electing to apply bombast to end the discussion leaves me to doubt the robustness of your own understanding

I am fully aware of the scripture you posted. Anyone can C&P, but it takes more to enter into cogent discussion about theoretical doctrine. If you are unable, kindle return to the sidelines as a spectator, (or go back to shaking your pom-poms as a cheerleader), and let the players play.

Analytical:

In the spirit of Christ, one should own up to a mistake, especially one that's so glaring and scripturally baseless like this one, instead of further engaging in an exercise in futility, moreso when it is borne out of a desire to win an argument and not to edify.

In the Spirit of Christ one should be longsuffering enough to fully explain percieved mistake. I merely touched on something in passing without enunciating my full position. On the basis of that you launched into a wordy, overblown and off-topic rejoinder  All I did was offer you the opportunity to discuss.  LIke I said earlier, there are loads of people walking the streets in Arsenal kit!

God bless

sage:

JESUS AND HIS DISCIPLES PAYED TAXES, PAUL HAD A TENT MAKING BUSINESS.

A friend of mine reading this beside me said: "Sad that only tent makers will escape the judgement. I presume this fellow lives in one with wooden pegs!" I wouldn't be that sarcastic, as I'd rather just share points with you.

sage:

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS

1 PARTICIPATED IN POLITICS OF ANYFORM

There are also 5 things that neither Jesus nor any of the true first century Christians participated in:

1. They did not use the internet or a computer (which you have used, yes?)

2. They did not attend a university or take up employment in any Government office - no?

3. They did not take up employment in any Embassy as some Christians who have very good jobs in the visa sections - no?

4. They did not work in Government Hospitals, Health Care Centers, or the Fire Service - no?

5. They did not work in any bank or oil companies like some Christians do today - yes?

Now, since Christians in our age do these things in contrast to what the Lord Jesus Christ and "any of the true first century Christians" participated in, would it seem wise to still be so pronounced in your dichotomy?
_{My friend again: "I presume this chap can report them to God and sit under a gourd or booth in the eastern part of the hemisphere to see what God will do to them (Jonah 4:5)."}

sage:

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
. . .
2 SUPPORTED ANY HUMAN GOVERMENT OF ANY SORT.

Sage, please read Luke 20, Romans 13 and I Timothy 2 again.

Luke 20:25
He (Jesus) said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Rom 13:1-7
¹Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. ²Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. ⁵Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. ⁶For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. ⁷Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

I Tim. 2:1-3
¹First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, ²for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. ³This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

sage:

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
. . .

3 JOIN IN MILITARY SERVICE TO ANY NATION

If I Tim. 2:1-3 says it is good and pleasing in the sight of God to pray for Kings and those in authority, where is the taboo against Christians taking up vocations in the law enforcement agencies? If Rom. 13:1-7 recognizes the civil governments of political blocs of nations as instituted by God Himself, where is the dividing line that forbids Christians to fulfill their calling in such institutions?

sage:

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
. . .
4 PRAYED FOR THE WELL BEIGN OF THER "NATION" EVEN WHEN THEIR "NATION" WAS UNDER ATTACK.

Have you ever read any of the following Scriptures? Here -

Psal. 51:18 - Do good to Zion in your good pleasure; build up the walls of Jerusalem

Psal. 122:6 - Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! May they be secure who love you!

Jer. 51:50 - Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind.

Gal. 6:10 - As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

I Tim. 2:1-2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

Question: should we pray for all nations that God may bless them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Gal. 3:8 - "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

If these and other scriptures do not help the case of praying for the nations of the world, where indeed did God wish that we curse them?

sage:

BUT NEITHER JESUS NOR ANY OF THE TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS
. . .
5 PLEDGED ALLIGIANCE TO ANY NATION

It all depends what you mean by allegiance. I'm sure you don't count as a citizen of a nameless nation; and even if you do, the Bible does not recommend that we be disloyal to the governmental institutions of the various nations we find ourselves.

The apostle Paul recognized his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-29); and he urged Christians to be respectful and responsible to the civil and political Governments existing in any nation (Rom. 13:1-7). To deny this on the premise that Christians did not pledge allegiance to any nation is to deny what the Bible states.

sage:

THESE THINGS ARE INCOMPACTIBLE WITH TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

True Christianity is based on the written Word and not on some esoteric, private far-fetched interpretation to some guru.

sage:

Jesus and his apostles had the ability to raise the dead, heal the sick, render righteous judgement, comfort the depressed etc

. . . And your point is??

sage:

If participation in human politics and rulership was acceptable according to what you guys are claiming, they should have taken on rulership and SHOWN OTHERS HOW TO RULE, BUT DID THEY? NO, THEY FLED FROM POLITICS LIKE IT WAS A PLAGUE COZ THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COULD ONLY PLEDGE ALLIGIANCE TO ONE SINGLE GOVERMENT, THAT OF GOD.

Again, Romans 13:1-7 does not teach what you're pushing across - political governments are never treated as a "PLAGUE" from which Christians fled! And there are many spheres where Christians have distinguished themselves in positions of leadership - including politics, economics, academics, culture and the arts.

sage:

THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT HUMAN RULERSHIP WAS WAS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE DEVIL AND COULD THAT THEY COULD NOT EVEN TOUCH IT WITH A ONE MILE POLE.

You're preaching some of the pamphlets of your group/denomination, yes? The reason why I'm asking is because none of your ideas are actually substantiated in the Bible.

sage:

CHRISTIADOM IS ON A ONE WAY ROAD NOW, HEADED STRAIGHT OFF INTO DESTRUCTION ALONG WITH ALL HUMAN GOVERMENTS.

I wonder why it has to take over 2 millenia for the destruction you predict to occur, especially as God's Word clearly teaches that human governments are instituted by God.

sage:

The 1st century christians were persecuted fiercly by both the Jewish system, and the Roman state for their not pledging alligiance to the state. But they chose to die than take part in human politics.

It was not a political government that undergirded the persecution from the Jews; so your point is unbalanced. The Roman governors of the day did not seek Christian allegiance to a political state: rather, the big question was who was "Lord" - Caesar or Jesus? If you carefully read the lines, you can't mix them up the way you did.

sage:

Jesus prayed for Gods kingdom to come, the only Goverment that true Christians should pledge alligiance to. When that kingdom starts to rule on Earth, then the kingdoms of this world will indeed become the kingdom of our Lord.

Half-truths are dangerous. We pray for God's Kingdom to come; and from all the texts offered above, it is our Christian responsibility to pray for the welfare of civilian and political rulers.

sage:

The more i discuss about this the more i see why Christiandoms judgement by God will have no Mercy in it. She deserves it every single step of the way. What a wicked Harlot

Your ideas are really mixed up as it does not appear you were able to distinguish between issues. Rather than lump everything under your perceived "Christiandoms" (rather, Christendom) as a wicked Harlot, why don't you carefully and prayerfully ask God to help you rightly divide the Word of truth in a straight line (II Tim. 2:15)? Try it - you will come away really blessed!

mrpataki:

You said it all without the interjection of slight slanders to TV01 as I would have done to his case.

What is it with the wierd mix of back-biting, gainsaying and spiritually (and grammatically) impacted nonsense that is confused for intelligent comment on this board sometimes  

Lord have mercy!