TayoD,

You know I take no offence whatsoever and understand that in heated passionate debate, things are sometimes said, but I trust that we are all well intentioned if only human ~ It is well.

Has anyone seen Mogsbottom? Mr. H. Mogsbottom??
Apt I think, since that's where he/she seems to spend most of his time.

Oi, Mogsbottom, if you find anything worth sharing while your up there, please let us know.

Personally, I prefer the "secret place"

The only Xtain i know is CHRIS OKOTIA ----which i doubt if he willl get anywhere

TayoD,

Why do I get the impression that you are trying to use semantics to work your way out of this?

Never the less, I will persevere in trying to make my point. Allow me;

There are effectively 2 kingdoms (or two rulers if you please). Those submitted to theLord Jesus Christ and those in the devils kingdom and under his sway. All the kingdoms of the earth are under the sway of the evil one.

Trying to split definitions of the "world" may have it's place, but is pointless at this stage in this discussion. Let me explain;

The "world" (the place, kingoms of this earth), is inhabited by the "world" (the people who have not turned to the Lord, remember the Bible says they have been taken captive by the devil to do his will?). The lust for it and the pride of it are merely the manifestations of desiring this world and taking pride in being successful and lauded in it. There's nothing difficult about this.

Now back to the topic under discussion. How exactly can a christian be politically active, seek for office and remain uncompromised? What real change can they make? More importantly, how far can engaging in politics further the true mandate of the church (saving people out of the world and equipping them as saints of God in Christ?). What are the weapons of our warfare, because believe it or not, it's war, and you don't defeat the other side by becoming like them.

It simply cannot be done. Show me one example! I outlined in my previous post scenarios why this was so. Politics is ordered, structured and engaged in using strictures that are totally worldly. To be successful, you have to be worldy.

(I'm replying ad-hoc here so please bear with me).

You asked a question about the leaven of the Pharisees earlier. I was hoping that we could leave the elementary parts of this discussion and move on. But let me share a little of my thinking on this here and now.

Three warnings in the Bible about "leaven", pertaining to the;
1. Pharisees
2. Saducees
3. Herod

You asked this earlier;

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod, If we go by your interpretation, then Jesus must be telling us not to have anything to do with the Church as well. On the contrary, He is advising us to desist from the 'leaven' of the church and the state, and not to stay away from the church and the state itself.

Let me ask you this;
Is the Lords warning redundant for us in this day? Well, I don't think so. I see types interpreted as follows;

1. Legalistic law bound religion (tithing, authority precepts, the clergy/laity split etc etc)
2. Liberal religion (Rejecting the bible as myth, political correctness, ecumenism, syncretism etc)
3. Compromise with the state (registration/incorporation of the church, charitable status, political endorsement or involvement etc etc. All yoking the Church to the State and in essence making the church subject to the state. A body can have just the one Head. if it's the state, it can't be the Lord)

Let's continue if you will, but I repeat; Christianity is not served by political engagement, indeed the urge to be take charge politically is driven by the scripture on which you based your initial interpretation of the world, namely lust and pride.

As ever, God bless

@TV01,

I intend to show you that your thoughts on this matter can not be sustained throughout scriptures at all. In the meantime, I want to share with you a practical way Christian's influence and participation in politics can make a difference.

Here is one of God's goals according to Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

It is obvious from here that the Lord desire godly seed, i.e. children growing up in an environment that promotes godliness. In our society today, we have gay and lesbian couples who are bent on adopting children that they are incapable of having for obvious reasons. A State legislation that recognises the union between same sex couples encourages such couples to adopt children, and you can imagine what kind of up-bringing such a child will be subjected to. That child will consider a homosexual lifestyle to be the norm. The scripture says that what you teach a child is what he will keep to when he grows up. If you believe that scripture, then you will know that such a child is virtually confirmed as a child of hell through that adoption.

As Christians, we understand that we need to do all we can to save these people, and we use all the means available to us. Politics has been a very useful tool to combat this lifestyle in the U.S. Voting to limit marriage between a man and a woman is one means, while having a rightous person (a Christian) in a political office to push forward the legislation and ensure that our votes are not disregarded is another strategy.

Legislation against homosexual marriages does not change the nature and sexual preferences of those who practice this lifestyle, but it deprives them of a vital tool which they have used to propagate and extend this lifestyle to others. Ensuring that they cannot get married legally is another way of making sure our God's desire for godly seed is met.

You have rightly said that this is a 'war' situation, and it is obvious that one of your war strategies should include making sure your enemy is deprived of ammunition with which it can wreck havoc on you. Depriving the enemy the opportunity to adopt these kids is sure a way of limiting the advancement of his rampaging army.

Hi TayoD,

You said
"I intend to show you that your thoughts on this matter can not be sustained throughout scriptures at all".

Really? I'm right here waiting. So far you have done no such thing.
Indeed, you've blatantly ignored the fact that your original definition of the "world" was totally wrong, and now moved on to draw a fallacious interpretation of scripture (why do dominationalists always do that ).

The Lord desires Godly seed. Yes He does, Godly seed can only come from Godly parents. Just like they tried to use Malachi to push tithing, here you are trying to make it fit something it wasn't aimed at. The scripture here speaks to believers in Holy Wedlock. One of the designs of Godly union is Godly seed. Your point here is fundamentally flawed and badly made.

You said;
"As Christians, we understand that we need to do all we can to save these people",

Spot on my brother. Your error arises as you believe "politics" is a Christian tool, it is not! The weapons of our warfare are not of this world, politics sadly is!

Surely the test of any doctrine (or at least the way it is being applied), is its outworking. I have repeatedly ask for examples of where Christian politcs is making kingdom gains. As yet no response from proponents of the Christian lobby (who are just as irrelevant as that other much loved lobby, the race one).

I repeat, Christians trying to establish a political beachhead in this war is misguided and a waste of resources. Reduced for simplicity, the spoils (not the wages) are souls. Christian politics is not a soul winning exercise, its a power grab. Only true Christian power is from above.

The homosexual lobby has almost kicked it's Christian counterpart into touch. Forget the world for a moment, look at the institutional churches. Homosexuality is sweeping all before it. Far from making gains in the world, the world has made gains in the Institutional Church. Methinks resources would be better deployed fighting a rearguard action on this one.

Look around, homosexuals are fighting on many fronts, in the media, education, culture, commerce and every which way. The current labour govt here in the UK has had at least 4 openly gay ministers, no Chritians last time I looked. The Church left it first love, abondoned it's mandate. Went for the wisdom of men and the ways of the world, and ultimately became just like it.

The True Church of Christ is pure, unfettered, unalloyed (without spot, blemish or wrinkle). Engaging with the world on the worlds terms and using the worlds methods is what has led to the current state of irrelevance and powerlessness of the IC. Which is why I make a distinction between the true church and that corrupt religious exercise that many mistake for it.

You said
i.e. children growing up in an environment that promotes godliness.

The reason why scripture enjoins believers to shine as lights in the world is because holiness is best promoted by modelling. It's spiritually naive to think it can be promoted by law (Sharia anyone?). When the unbelieving see the love, strong marriages, moral rectitude and radiant well-being of true Christian community, they will believe and clamour to join. Instead The IC is every bit as dysfunctional as the world, same issues, same problems, it fact, it's no different.

Say on sir,

God bless

@TV01,

Ther are so many issues that has been raised in this discussion and the fact that I tackle one at a time does not mean I'm running away from others.  I did not accuse you of turning a tail when you refused to acknowledge the fact that Jesus indeed had political clout.  Same can be said of John the Baptist, Elijah, Elisha and even Paul.

For your information, I did not 'define' the world as you accuse.  Rather it is the scriptures that defines it for you in 1 John 2:16.  Your error comes when you ignore this definition and maintain the Bible is talking about politics, commerce and culture (can you show that from scripture?).  In your mind, we should stay away from anything political, commercial and cultural.  That is interesting noting that you have to work to survive (commerce), your identity as a Nigerian was not changed when you got born again (cultural) and the same Bible refers to the government as God's servant (political).  

I am baffled when you say we can't use tools to propagate the Gospel.  You tell us that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual.  Please enlightene us how you intend to reach the unbelievers in the spirit alone without going through the medium of the flesh.  Please tell us you only pray and not even talk to them at all since that is entering the flesh.  I wonder what you are doing online sef when you are meant to be in the spirit.  Why use the carnal tool of the www in the first place.  You remind me of the Deeper Life Ministry who were so moved with zeal without knowledge, that they claim Television is sin.  some even claim now that the internet is sin.  But of course, same people are now on T.V and the www using that 'tool' to advance the Gospel.  Politics, like the www, T.V., cars, airplane, church buildings etc are tolls that we use to propagate the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away  From my understanding of this scripture, we are told we can use this world as long as we do not compromise our christian witness.  Politicians like every other professional are faced with the opportunity to compromise their christian beliefs in their daily activities.   Unless of course, you have a job that does not bring you in contact with unbelievers and never gives you the opportunity to compromise.  If such a job exists, please let us know about it.  

I have repeatedly ask for examples of where Christian politcs is making kingdom gains. As yet no response from proponents of the Christian lobby

You are either not reading what we've said or you want more examples which I will give to you.  The last Presidential election in the United States was influenced greatly by Christians.  If we had not come out to vote, then John Kerry would have won.  One of the reasons we voted for Bush was because of the possibility that the next president would likely have the opportunity to select Justices to serve in the Supreme Court.  Bush as promised, selected 2 conservative Justices who are very likely to overturn the Roe v Wade ruling which legalised abortion in the U.S.  Kerry would have selected judges that will do the opposite.   Imagine the millions of lives that this decision will affect.  And there still exists the possibility that Bush will still have the opportunity to select at least, one more judge to serve on the Supreme Court.   Bush, as a matter of policy, limits federal funding to scientific researches that kill the unborn while Kerry wanted to increase the Government funding to such research.  These and many more are issues we are dealing with and affecting as Christians who understand that what goes on in the Political realm affect our day to day lives and the propagation of the Gospel.

And if you read 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul linked our abilitiy as christians to lead a quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honesty to what happens in our government.  Please note how he said such efect has a direct impact on the salvation of the unbeliever.  1 I exhort 1 therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; 2 that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The Lord desires Godly seed. Yes He does, Godly seed can only come from Godly parents, The scripture here speaks to believers in Holy Wedlock. One of the designs of Godly union is Godly seed. Your point here is fundamentally flawed and badly made.

Again, you are giving us your ideas contrary to the scriptures.  Here is that scripture again in another translation, since the KJV is a little mixed up there:  Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.   If you will throw your prejudice aside, please read that verse again noting that the only way a godly seed can be made is through the unity of a Man and a Woman in a holy wedlock.  The Lord asked Himself: "And why is the man and woman made one?"   And He came up with the answer: "so as to have a godly seed."  And you need to ask your self the question, does a gay marriage increases the possiblity of having a godly seed or not?  Then ask youeself, how can that also be stopped?

Hi TayoD,

You said;
"Ther are so many issues that has been raised in this discussion and the fact that I tackle one at a time does not mean I'm running away from others. I did not accuse you of turning a tail when you refused to acknowledge the fact that Jesus indeed had political clout. Same can be said of John the Baptist, Elijah, Elisha and even Paul".

You're right, the conversation is developing in a way that makes it hard to cover all the points. Let's endevour to keep it simple.

All the five above were hounded by the political authorities of their time. And in the case of four of them, they were eventually killed by it. Hear this, the State is an organ of oppression and persecution for Christians ~ Played out time and time again in scripture. Maybe you'd like to advise brethren in place like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia how to advance their cause via politics or the apparatus of state!

You said;
For your information, I did not 'define' the world as you accuse. Rather it is the scriptures that defines it for you in 1 John 2:16. Your error comes when you ignore this definition and maintain the Bible is talking about politics, commerce and culture (can you show that from scripture?).

The scripture is talking of lust and pride in and of things of the world, not the world per se. Additionally, a fuller reading of scripture (and I went to great lengths to post and expound), will show that as a definition of the world, this scripture in isolation is at best limited.

You said
In your mind, we should stay away from anything political, commercial and cultural. That is interesting noting that you have to work to survive (commerce), your identity as a Nigerian was not changed when you got born again (cultural) and the same Bible refers to the government as God's servant (political).

So you know my mind now do you? Please don't be too keen to ascribe things to me. I am perfectly capable of expressing my own mind. Thank you. I never said Christians where not to work or be gainfully employed. I'm not a Nigerian, but on becoming a Christian (which is a self contained culture in it's own right), any earthly culture is subsumed to the Christian one, and when in conflict, discared without a second thought. TayoD, the Devil himself is Gods servant, shall we employ him in our cause? (actually thats the ultimate outworking of your CPL proposal, which is a double bluff as you play right into his hands).

You said;
I am baffled when you say we can't use tools to propagate the Gospel. You tell us that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual. Please enlightene us how you intend to reach the unbelievers in the spirit alone without going through the medium of the flesh. Please tell us you only pray and not even talk to them at all since that is entering the flesh. I wonder what you are doing online sef when you are meant to be in the spirit. Why use the carnal tool of the www in the first place. You remind me of the Deeper Life Ministry who were so moved with zeal without knowledge, that they claim Television is sin. some even claim now that the internet is sin. But of course, same people are now on T.V and the www using that 'tool' to advance the Gospel. Politics, like the www, T.V., cars, airplane, church buildings etc are tolls that we use to propagate the Gospel.

I never said we can't employ tools, I just said politics isn't one of them. The way we advance in the Flesh ("Although we walk in the flesh" II Corinthians 10:4 - I believe), is through employing spiritual strategems. The flesh avails nothing sir! It sound good, it looks good, but it's worldly wisdom, the adversary must be beside himself. I'll ignore your dig about DL, TV etc (or I may choose to respond with one f my own , you know how we do it!). Must be said though I don't have a TV by choice. All things are lawful, but not all are expedient.

You said
1 Corinthians 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away From my understanding of this scripture, we are told we can use this world as long as we do not compromise our christian witness. Politicians like every other professional are faced with the opportunity to compromise their christian beliefs in their daily activities. Unless of course, you have a job that does not bring you in contact with unbelievers and never gives you the opportunity to compromise. If such a job exists, please let us know about it.

Please show me an uncompromised Christian politician.

I hate making it about people/personalities, but suffice to say, George W. Bush, took the US of A into an unprovoked war. Excuse me, make that wars. How Christian is that? At least half a million dead and counting. Dine with the enemy, and if he doesn't get you one way he'll get you another.

You said;
And if you read 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul linked our abilitiy as christians to lead a quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and honesty to what happens in our government. Please note how he said such efect has a direct impact on the salvation of the unbeliever. 1 I exhort 1 therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; 2 that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
You appear to be misconstuing praying for political leaders and being political leaders. In your ideal scenarion you'll simply be praying for yourself. What a hoot!

You said;
Again, you are giving us your ideas contrary to the scriptures. Here is that scripture again in another translation, since the KJV is a little mixed up there: Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
You reasoning suggests that any non-believers should be legally barreed from reproducing.

I'm here.

God bless

@TV01,

While it is true that the State has been an organ of persecution against the Church, it has also been the tool used by the righteous to bring about God's will.  Joseph, Esther and Daniel readily comes to mind.  Imagine if what happened in Daniel were to happen in places like Pakistan and Saudi arabia that you mentioned, then a whole country will almost become christian overnight.  And I need to let you know that politics is is just one of the tools that we can use to propagate the Gospel.  Other means might be required for the scenario you called out.  Wisdom is profitable to direct.  In palces like Zamfara however, politics is a tool that can be used to reverse the unconstitutionality of the government.  Christians can go to court (Ceasar) to address that situation.

While I have shown you what the Bible defines as the world, you are dancing in circles without providing the scriptural basis for saying the world refers to politics, commerce and culture.  At least, one thing I understand from 1 John 2:16 is the fact that the Bible's reference to the 'world' may be substituted in some cases to mean the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

Of course I know your mind in this instance.  You have expressed your thoughts in the things you wrote.   Are you not the one that said:

Bad idea, we have a divine mandate to fulfil and enough to keep us occupied. Politics, commerce and culture (the world) are effectively under the sway of the evil one.

Are you not telling us here to hands off anything politics, commercial or cultural because they are effectively under the sway of the evil one?  and please tell us what the culture of christianity is, 'because I really don't know what you are talking about.

So can you show us from scripture where we are told that we may use all tools except politics, commerce and cultural ones?  It's funny how you quoted the scripture: 'all things are lawful, ' but you are quick to say politics is not.  Doesn't politics fall under the word 'ALL"?  And while you are searching the Bible for that answer, please read 1 Corinthians 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; .  As the scripture has said here: the world is mine.  This line must have inspired the statement "The World is Yours" used in Scarface the movie.

Please show me an uncompromised Christian politician.

Please show me an uncompromised Christian at all, whether politician or not.

You appear to be misconstuing praying for political leaders and being political leaders. In your ideal scenarion you'll simply be praying for yourself. What a hoot!

Prayer like politics is a tool we also use.  And what is wrong with praying for myself?  Don't you pray for yourself? 

You reasoning suggests that any non-believers should be legally barreed from reproducing

 
Not at all.  Rather you are the one that is reasoning that way.  I very much quoted the Bible to show that God requires a man and a woman (not righteous people as you suggested) to give birth within the marriage institution in order to give God a godly seed.  This will not happen in homosexual marriages.  Here is what I said again:   If you will throw your prejudice aside, please read that verse again noting that the only way a godly seed can be made is through the unity of a Man and a Woman in a holy wedlock.  The Lord asked Himself: "And why is the man and woman made one?"   And He came up with the answer: "so as to have a godly seed."     And that statement is borne out of the following scripture:  Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring.

i read with much fascination the debate engaged in by TV01 and Havila. very insightful indeed. however may I say that I would support on any good day any credible Christian candidate to take the reins of power in this country. one Bible verse summarizes it for me when it says, "When the righteous are in power, the people rejoice." no one is satisfied with the state of the country right now, and it could be easily traced to the leadership of this country. any leader of this country who is not a Christian is under no obligation whatsoever to favour others above self. For Christians, we are no longer servants to the flesh so we know that we do not have to satisfy its cravings, but the unbeliever has no such knowledge, and therefore no restrictions at all.

let's really, really imagine what it would be like if the national Assembly is constituted of even 40% committed Christians. there would be a change in policy making unprecedented in this country. even for those that might blame the incumbent for being corrupt while touting himself as a Christian, I would like to say we r better of than we would have been if a person of an alternate faith was in power. The Ecumenical Centre has finally been finished, we have a Chapel within Aso Villa, as well as the few significant changes in the state of the economy and government.

there are a number of Christian runners in the race for the Presidency of this country, all of which, I must say, I have my reservations towards, but we should seriously pray for a God-fearing leader for this country. we woould be much better off that way. God bless y'all! One.

Hi TayoD,

You are dogged, I'll give you that and thru' all our debate I sense a zeal for God which I appreciate. That said, You have so far failed to make me reconsider one iota.

First. Joseph, Daniel, Esther (and anyone else you care to mention) where not politicians. In fact thay where all slaves/sevants. Trusted yes, highly placed, true, but still servants. They could never have aspire to any political office. What elevated them was divine favour. They did not seek, pursue or campaign for office. Is this some sly attempt to weary me ?

Pray tell, when the enemy offered to give The Lord the "kingdoms of this world" and their glory if he would worship him, what was he refering to? Can you rule a kingdom (indeed do any exist) without power (authority), armies, stc etrc. Will trade and the like not be subjest to you (duty, taxes etc). Stop skirting sir. In the same passage the enemy said "they had been delivered to him. In Revelations, where do the beast, dragon etc get their power from. I repeat? Power over the nations of the earth (currently and only in lien) is the devils. And he gives it to whom he wishes. Please don't be fooled.

So yes, we can trade, engage the culture, even serve the state in a sense, but not if it compromises our beliefs (as in anything), and not to seeking rule over it, or power from it.

Won't you desist fromm this shrink to fit theology? All things ar elawful, is followed by but not all are expedient. I'm not sure is faulty theology being compounded by dodgy grammar? If all children are Godly, why do they need to be saved? Am I mis-reading you? Gay homosexuals cannot breed (at least with one) another?)

Your say my brother.

God bless

@TV01,

Thanks for the compliment. I throw the same right back at you!

I am so alarmed by your reference to Daniel and Esther as slaves/servants. Please show me how any of these were regarded as slaves/servants. That their country was taken on exile into another land does not mean they were slaves. Joseph was only less in authority than Pharaoh in Egypt. Daniel (of noble birth) ruled over the entire province of Babylon, which is like the Washington of our day. Esther (the Queen) influenced the political decision of her day. Just tell us, did these people wield political power or not?

They could never have aspire to any political office. What elevated them was divine favour. They did not seek, pursue or campaign for office.

The question is not whether they aspired for political office or not. I assume by that statement you agree these people occupied political positions. In any case, why would God favour them so much that He will put them in a position that is contrary to His will? And in a sense, Esther was aware that her action was going to have a political implication. That is exactly the purpose of Christianity in politics. To exert political influence in such a way as to accomplish the Lord's desire for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Please, be not deceived that the war beween God and Satan is centered on kingdoms in the sense of geographical locations, riches etc. Rather, it is centered more on people. God is not so much concerned about commerce because He has already declared that the gold and silver, the earth and the fullness thereof belongs to Him. So there is really no contest in that arena.

Once again, if we will let the scriptures explain itself, then we will understand what was transpiring in the scenario you mentioned. According to Jesus, there are 2 kingdoms, the kingdom of heaven (or God) and the kingdom of darkness: Matthew 8: 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. All men were handed over to the devil when Adam sinned, and that is why death reigned over us: Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) It is therefore clear that satan was telling Jesus that the men He came to save were under his dominion and He can hand them over to Jesus without Jesus having to go to the cross. But of course, there was an addendum to that offer. He wanted Jesus to worship him. I am sure you are aware that politics does not have anything to do with these kingdoms, and so how take this to mean Christians are not to partake in politics is unimaginable t me.

Campaigning for offices is a legitimate right of anyone in a country. God told us to obey the laws of our land which encourages us to seek for political offices. Going about obtaining political power through a legitimate and constitutional means is absolutely not in violation of the Bible.

So yes, we can trade, engage the culture, even serve the state in a sense, but not if it compromises our beliefs (as in anything), and not to seeking rule over it, or power from it.

I thought you said before that involving in commerce, culture and any form of plitical activity is contrary to our faith. Are you now beginning to see the fallacy of your statemement? The key-word here is compromise, and I have told you that it is a common denominator to all Christians, regardless if we are involved in politics or not. Strength of character will keep any Christian in politics, commerce or cultre. Joseph and Daniel are good examples. By the way, you are yet to tell me what the Christian culture you mentioned earlier is.

Arent all things lawful anymore? Doesn't the Bible tell us that all things are ours (including the world)? So who is shrinking and expanding the scritures to fit his preconceived idea of us two?

If all children are Godly, why do they need to be saved? Am I mis-reading you? Gay homosexuals cannot breed (at least with one) another?)

I think you need to rephrase these statement as it does not make any sense to me.

I think it is divine direction that makes for distinction in politics
If God directs you to politics, He alone will make you a success in it
Around 1996, He told me to prepare to do few things relating to politics in 2011
I think if God leads and we follow, He has the authority and freedom to led us to wheresoever He chooses to.

my two cents

there are compromising christians everywhere be it in politics or postions of authority
everyone is tempted

secondly since the time of Christ coming isnt common knowledge then we are stuck here

thirdly what stops being in a postion of leadership and authority being one's God given goal

fourthly if we shouldnt be involved in campaigning thenTV are u saying we shouldnt vote too?

Please lets pray well and constantly for the 2007 election. It can make or mar this country of ours. Please as many christians as possible that can participate in politics in whatever level, should please do. We need Christians in the places of authorithy so as to enhance the kingdom in their own little or big way.

Cheers everybody!

I'm paying close attention to the on going debate. Please be tolerable as much as possible with another.

freaskie:

Please lets pray well and constantly for the 2007 election. It can make or mar this country of ours. Please as many christians as possible that can participate in politics in whatever level, should please do. We need Christians in the places of authorithy so as to enhance the kingdom in their own little or big way.

Delusion.

The numbers and facts do not bear out this scenario. It's essentially a pipe dream.

If there were enough Christians to make a political change, we would have already seen the effect in daily life. Christianity works from the grassroots upwards. Individuals, families, communities.

The populace force the change. And a country gets the government it deserves (and secretly longs for).

What is the % of truly committed Christians in Nigeria? That the vast majority of the populace are not believers, and many of those that claim to be are at best lukewarm. This is palpably evident by the sheer lawlessness that holds sway. Not just at every level of government, but in every sector and in every strata of society.

Righteousness exalts a nation, not Christian politics/politicians.

Dream on.

God bless

@TayoD

I'm really impressed. Cant count all the things i've lent from your post so far. keep it coming.

@TV01

You've impressed me too i must confess. you've really marshalled ur views well.
i've always believed christians SHOULD be involved in politics, but your points made me rethink. Now i am certain. i totally agree with TayoD.

Hi Lafile,

Thanks for your kind words.

Truly the debate makes one evaluate and focus one's own position.

The true test of any doctrine is it's outworking. The Gospel of our Lord is not just in Word, it's in power.

There is only one God and there are only two sources of power. Authority (Not ultimately, or ownership) over The Kingdoms of this world is currently in lien to the enemy. To sit on any of it's thrones, you have to serve him or compromise your position, which is essentially the same thing.

If the elevation to a position of authority or influence comes by divine favour, it will be clear and apparent to all. The glory will be God's.

Civil agitation for worldly power? As a Christian it simply beggars belief.

Christian overcoming is by the blood, the word, the gospel. You change lives, then families, then communities, then countries. Go to the Bible for your patterns. Not the ways of the world.

I'd appreciate someone showing me something, illiustrating a scenario of Christians achieving political sway. How would it work?

The Bible narrative is very clear. Law doesn't avail to righteousness (which is the whole point of political power right? To be able to legislate!). And the "State" is a means of persecution to the saints. Either through their rebellion, or for their trying.

When the church joins forces or ally's with the world (state), it ceases to be the church. It's why the Pharisees never took Herod to task. They where yoked to the state and thus compromised John the Baptist was not and so did. It cost him his life. Religious affiliation with the state makes for a LovePeddler not a bride (they look the same, but true discernment will show thay are nothing like - see the book of Revelations for the end of spiritual whoredom -  let him who has ears).

Not only am I yet to be persuaded of the "Political Path", I see clear Biblical counsel against it.

But I remain ever willing to discuss.

God bless

@TV01,

Righteousness exalts a nation, not Christian politics/politicians

You sure have your way of running with a scripture without balancing that scripture with others.  I have emphasised in our discussion, the need to have the Bible explain itself, but it seems you are just set in your ways and your thought.  In any case, why not try and balance the referenced scripture above with the following:
Proverbs 29:2
Show me a righteous ruler and I will show you a happy people. Show me a wicked ruler and I will show you a miserable people. (GNT)
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (KJV)
When the godly are in authority, the people rejoice. But when the wicked are in power, they groan (NLT).

The populace force the change. And a country gets the government it deserves (and secretly longs for).

This assertion can not be corroborated by scripture, nor by history.  With respect to history, Nigeria is what it is today basically because one man (Babangida) became the head of State.  Much of the corruption and lack of respect for lives and properties became the norm when he came into power.  In other words, the nation tends to take on the character of the leader.  Read through the book of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible, and you will see that Isreal either turns away or serve God based on the ruling King.  When the King is God-fearing, the whole of Isreal tend to be God-fearing and vice versa.

There is only one God and there are only two sources of power. Authority (Not ultimately, or ownership) over The Kingdoms of this world is currently in lien to the enemy. To sit on any of it's thrones, you have to serve him or compromise your position, which is essentially the same thing.
If the elevation to a position of authority or influence comes by divine favour, it will be clear and apparent to all. The glory will be God's.
Civil agitation for worldly power? As a Christian it simply beggars belief.

Your error is still based on your assumption that the 'world' refers to politics, commerce and culture.  I have shown you scriptures over and over again that contradicts your view but you just won't accept it.  Claiming you have to be compromised to attain political power, yet stating that God can favour you to such a 'compromising' position is an affront on the integrity of Almighty God.  Mitchelle Bachmann was in church giving all the glory to God.  By her position in politics, she's gained such a visibility (a city set on a hill that cannot be hid), and through that visibility, her testimony of Christ is heard in more homes across the State than most preachers or believers will ever dream of.
What you term civil agitation for worldly power is what we find in Exodus 18:21  Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:  No wonder our countries are what they are today.  We have failed to elect "able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; ,  to be rulers, "

The Bible narrative is very clear. Law doesn't avail to righteousness (which is the whole point of political power right? To be able to legislate!).

Please tell this to God, and advice Him that His role as a King (Executive), Lawgiver (Legislative) and Judge (Judiciary) is ill-adviced.  Can't you see that America, founded on the biblical principles actually got the idea of democracy from God as revealed in Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
So since when did it become 'wordly' and 'ungodly' to imitiate God?  Ephesians 5:1  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children

Your ideas are just what it is: Your Ideas.  They have no biblical foundation and are deprived of wisdom.  That the State has a history of persecuting the church does not make it an exclusive tool of the devil.  Christians are persecuted every day by members of their familes, friends and acquaitances.  Does that make these people exclusively subject to Satan's authority?  Definitely not.  The devil uses whoever yields to his influence, same principles applies to God.  The State, if it yields itself to God will be mightily used of God.

Hi TayoD,

Good w/e end I trust.

You said;
You sure have your way of running with a scripture without balancing that scripture with others.  I have emphasised in our discussion, the need to have the Bible explain itself, but it seems you are just set in your ways and your thought.  In any case, why not try and balance the referenced scripture above with the following:
Proverbs 29:2
Show me a righteous ruler and I will show you a happy people. Show me a wicked ruler and I will show you a miserable people. (GNT)
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. (KJV)
When the godly are in authority, the people rejoice. But when the wicked are in power, they groan (NLT).

My response;
I must say you almost have a half point here. But it doesn't bear out under close scrutiny. I know of no Godly rulers, but lots of relatively happy countries/states. How manage? Secondly, you need to understand that Judaism coloured everything the Jews did. To such an extent that the religion/culture and politics where pretty much one. The test of a ruler in Judah?Israel was not their miltary might or their economic prowess, it was how God-fearing they were.

You said;
This assertion can not be corroborated by scripture, nor by history.  With respect to history, Nigeria is what it is today basically because one man (Babangida) became the head of State.  Much of the corruption and lack of respect for lives and properties became the norm when he came into power.  In other words, the nation tends to take on the character of the leader.  Read through the book of Kings and Chronicles in the Bible, and you will see that Isreal either turns away or serve God based on the ruling King.  When the King is God-fearing, the whole of Isreal tend to be God-fearing and vice versa.

My response;
I don't know many people who have anything good to say about IBB, but you are the first person I know to lay the whole blame for Nigeria's woes at his feet. Your point here cannot be corroborated by history, as Nigeria's problems have their roots in distant history and where well seeded before IBB arrived on the scene, he merely upped the ante. As for scripture, please read on. Let me try and link this with my response to your insightful piece about Israel with the "Thrones" thing I mentioned earlier. When the Kingdom was split into Israel & Judah it essentially established two thrones. The one of Judah was of God and was always relatively peaceful. Israel was a bad throne, a throne of rebellion. It will almost always corrupt whomever sits on it if they are not corrupt already. Therein lies the danger of trying to sit on the thrones of this world by worldly means. Maybe I should have been using corrupt instead of compromise in my earlier posts.

You said;
Your error is still based on your assumption that the 'world' refers to politics, commerce and culture.  I have shown you scriptures over and over again that contradicts your view but you just won't accept it.  Claiming you have to be compromised to attain political power, yet stating that God can favour you to such a 'compromising' position is an affront on the integrity of Almighty God.  Mitchelle Bachmann was in church giving all the glory to God.  By her position in politics, she's gained such a visibility (a city set on a hill that cannot be hid), and through that visibility, her testimony of Christ is heard in more homes across the State than most preachers or believers will ever dream of.

My response;
I made it very clear (and showed scriptural references) that the world comprised of Kingdoms (amongst other things). A kingdom/State, comprises of Politics, commerce, culture and much much more. I don't know if I previously mis-stated, or you misread, but I have subsequently made it very clear that I don't lump all the elements together as one. Politics and its power, ways & means are what are under discussion here. Trying to ascribe things to me was not funny the first time you tried it. Now it's unfunny and tedious to boot.

You said;
Please tell this to God, and advice Him that His role as a King (Executive), Lawgiver (Legislative) and Judge (Judiciary) is ill-adviced.  Can't you see that America, founded on the biblical principles actually got the idea of democracy from God as revealed in Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
So since when did it become 'wordly' and 'ungodly' to imitiate God?  Ephesians 5:1  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children

My response;
I'm not sure if you misread what I meant if it actually matters given your ham-fisted way with the scriptures. Would you like scriptures showing that "Man" in his carnal state cannot be redeemed by law. Does God do it by law or by Grace. The riposte abouy God as King, lawgiver and judge sounds like you're out of ideas and thus "running to Daddy". Since when did Kings and democracy go together?

I won't reference (or research) the lady you mentioned. As I always maintain, it's not about personalities. But about "Giving glory to God". Half measures, compromise, pyhrric victories on bogus battle fronts and the mistaken assumption that God's kingdom is of this world or advanced by things of this world is in no way God gloryfying. Even if it's well intended, it's still misguided.

I won't argue about about America's founding principles ( I wasn't there  ), but please don't roll out that sorry old cliche about it being a Christian country. There are no Christian countries.

Say on sir.

God bless.

I must say you almost have a half point here. But it doesn't bear out under close scrutiny. I know of no Godly rulers, but lots of relatively happy countries/states. How manage? Secondly, you need to understand that Judaism coloured everything the Jews did. To such an extent that the religion/culture and politics where pretty much one. The test of a ruler in Judah?Israel was not their miltary might or their economic prowess, it was how God-fearing they were.

Are you trying to tell us that Proverbs 29:2 only applies to Isreal?  Are you also saying that your experience overides the scripture's submission?  Please make your points clearer as I believe you cannot be saying what you are obviouly implying here.  Pleae tell us, does a righteous person in authority today translate to the rejoicing of the people or not.  And doesn't this bear resemblance to 1 Timothy 2 where God desires that we live a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty?

I don't know many people who have anything good to say about IBB, but you are the first person I know to lay the whole blame for Nigeria's woes at his feet. Your point here cannot be corroborated by history, as Nigeria's problems have their roots in distant history and where well seeded before IBB arrived on the scene, he merely upped the ante. As for scripture, please read on. Let me try and link this with my response to your insightful piece about Israel with the "Thrones" thing I mentioned earlier. When the Kingdom was split into Israel & Judah it essentially established two thrones. The one of Judah was of God and was always relatively peaceful. Israel was a bad throne, a throne of rebellion. It will almost always corrupt whomever sits on it if they are not corrupt already. Therein lies the danger of trying to sit on the thrones of this world by worldly means. Maybe I should have been using corrupt instead of compromise in my earlier posts.

You read me wrong.  I never blamed all of Nigeira's woes on IBB, rather Nigeria degenerated into what it is today by the influence of that man.  We are yet to shake ourself completely free of the devastating consequences of that man having become the president of Nigeria.
Your references to the throne of Isreal corrupting the kings would have been taken at its face value except that the kings of Judah were just as corrupt as the kings of Isreal.  That must mean it isn't the throne that corrupts men, it is men who corrupt the throne.  A good man will do good on his throne while an evil man who do evil on his throne.  The throne only gives both kind of men the opportunity for a greater influence of good or evil.  If God was so opposed to the throne of Isreal, why then would He try to influence the decisions made on that throne?  Why would He raise up such great Prophets (Elijah and Elisha) in Isreal, and not even in Judah?  Please be reminded that the ofice of the Prophets in those days were an extension of the Government.

I made it very clear (and showed scriptural references) that the world comprised of Kingdoms (amongst other things). A kingdom/State, comprises of Politics, commerce, culture and much much more. I don't know if I previously mis-stated, or you misread, but I have subsequently made it very clear that I don't lump all the elements together as one. Politics and its power, ways & means are what are under discussion here. Trying to ascribe things to me was not funny the first time you tried it. Now it's unfunny and tedious to boot.

I have not tried to ascribe anything to you, but have emphasied the fact that no matter how you define the world, whether consisting of politics, comerce or culture, my Bible is very clear, that "the world belongs to us as Christians." - 1 Corinthians 3:21-23.  Besides, why should I stay away from the 'world' when the Bible mentioned that God so much loved the 'world' that He sent Jesus to die for it - John 3:16.  So why should christ's death be in vain?

I'm not sure if you misread what I meant if it actually matters given your ham-fisted way with the scriptures. Would you like scriptures showing that "Man" in his carnal state cannot be redeemed by law. Does God do it by law or by Grace. The riposte abouy God as King, lawgiver and judge sounds like you're out of ideas and thus "running to Daddy". Since when did Kings and democracy go together?

Of course man cannot be redeemed by law.  A nation's law is not promulgated to save man.  Rather, a nation's law, based on biblical principles will bring great blessings to the nation and to its people.  We have principles in scripture that if followed, will be a blessing to us, and not provide salvation in the sense of redeeming us from our sins.  Don't get all that muddled up.  On the other hand, a vagrant violation of God's law can bring God's wrath on the nation as we see in Soddom and Gomorrah, where homosexuality was obviously a national pastime.  Kings as used in scripture refers to the ruler.  There was no democracy in Bible times as we know it to be today.  So who is the Bible refering to in 1 timothey 2 when it says we should pray for Kings?

I won't reference (or research) the lady you mentioned. As I always maintain, it's not about personalities. But about "Giving glory to God". Half measures, compromise, pyhrric victories on bogus battle fronts and the mistaken assumption that God's kingdom is of this world or advanced by things of this world is in no way God gloryfying. Even if it's well intended, it's still misguided.

You say you have not seen a righteous ruler, and we should give you examples, but still you will not research living examples giving to you.  I just wonder why!   Your belief that God cannot use the kingdom of this world to further His work is unbelievably foolish on your part.  Did God use Nebuchadnezzar for His purpose?  Did He use Pharaoh to fulfill His promise for Isreal during the times of Joseph?  What about king Ahasuerus in the time of Esther for the preservation of Isreal?  What about the United Nations to establish Isreal in their land?  How about the Kings he use to save the life of that Christian sentenced to death in Afghanistan?   What about the many babes that could die or live through abortion that is directly influenced by those in authority?  And why would praying for our kings as metioned in 1 Timothy 2 lead to our ability to live a godly life?  Countless examples abound, but I doubt if they will make any differnce to you since you are not ready to consider any thing that contradicts your baseless belief-system.

I won't argue about about America's founding principles ( I wasn't there  ), but please don't roll out that sorry old cliche about it being a Christian country. There are no Christian countries.

Nobody said America is a Christian nation.  Indeed, there is no such thing.  On the other hand, you are the one that talks about the christian culture which you are yet to tell us about.

Lets all say the truth too ourselves, A chrstian cant do well in politics. cos we are human. the only chriastian i know who can do well is Jesus Christ. and dats of baba God send him again to this world.

even these days pastors, tell their memebers who hold big post with the govt that this is their opportunity and they should make use of it.

Let me quikly share this short story.

A deacon in the churh becomes a parmanent sece in a state.

He was invited for launching of 10 million in the church which he attends b4 he got the post.

during launching he donated 10,000

After the launching i was told the pator told the PS he was a disgrace to the church and that they were expectring himto donate at least 2million naira.

SO my dear people, even pastors are the more courrupt people especially in our country Nigeria.

Safe!

The question asked is:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you think about christians participating in politics. especially in the Nigerian context.
And what about Rev. Chris Okotie? What happens to his church while he is serving as president? Don't you think the calling of a pastor is higher than that of a king?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For me i don't think their is anything wrong with Christians participating in politics. The bible tell me that "the earth is the Lord's and all it's fullness". If the Lord is the "owner" of the whole earth, i want somebody to tell me one reason why the Lord's people should not be in charge of their Father's property. To say otherwise to me is the an abdication of duty. Another point is the fact that the same bible says that "Righteuosness exalts a nation". This is a principle of general application. Why do i say so? Take a look at some Gulf states, u will see that places like Saudi Arabia,UAE and a few others are enjoying some kind of affluence because their leaders though autocratic are employing some "righteuos" in the running of their country even though they are not Christian nations. Take a look at the USA, their model of democracy was coined out of the bible. Infact i read in Benjamin Franklin's autobiography that when they were coining their constitution, he sometimes takes out time to pray for "Godly" inspiration so that they will come out with a document that will stand the test of time. That was more than two hundred fifty years ago. Their constititution has only been modified five times only because of changing time and advanced scintific knowledge explosion.
The current constitution in Nigeria(1999 version) that was crafted by the military was so defective that more than 108 parts of that constitution needed urgent constitutional surgery. It was crafted by self serving military adventurists that has no posterity conscience or any sence of proportion. Where is righteousness in their acts?
If that is so, why cant christians who are the righteousness of God in christ be faulted when they go and participate in politics even if they falter? For Xtians to believe that politics is so dirty that they should not get involved is a "black lie" from the pit of hell. The devil will do anything just to prevent xtians to participate in politics in Nigeria because they will change the status quo.

As for the second part of the question. What i know is that Okotie is a bonafide Nigerian and can run for any office in Nigeria if his educational credentials qualifies him to so do. His church i believe is supporting him in his bid and as such will bear the consequence of his absence when he wins the election. So i think by now they will be working out a strategy that will keep the church together when he occupies Aso Rock.
If Okotie becomes the president, his calling as a pastor according to the bible can not be joepardized because they are exalples in the scripture where a single person was both a king and a priest. David acted it out literally, so did Solomon his son.
Ecclesiastes 1:1 says (Words of the "PREACHER", the son of David, "KING IN JERUSALEM".
The question is "If God allows an old testament saint to handle both offices in those era, what of now when EVERY xtian is now A KING,A PRIEST and A PROPHET in Christ Jesus?"
Aint we supposed to immitate such so far as we are sincere in our pursuit?
Either 1st or 2nd Peter said that "we are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,a holy nation, a peculiar people. To SHOW FORTH the praises of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light". Who are we to SHOW these virtues if not the adversary?
I believe okotie Himself understand beyond some of these technicalities pointed here.

What better way to have God's annointing flow from the top down. Is it not the reasons that we Christians pray for a change of heart of the people In the event that a true Man of God leads His people as leader/head of a country, with fairness, justice and most of all obeying God in the manner in which he leads, then tell me, how will the people of that country not have a chnage of herat in a positive way.

What better way to have God's annointing flow from the top down.  Is it not the reasons that we Christians pray for a change of heart of the people  In the event that a true Man of God leads His people as leader/head of a country, with fairness, justice and most of all obeying God in the manner in which he leads, then tell me, how will the people of that country not have a chnage of herat in a positive way.

we need a christian leader(not like Olu-monkey Oba-Gorilla), we need a God fearing man if pastor Adeboye is intrested would had love to vote for him but Okotie too is no Bad , we don't need dictators,thats dine with the demons of the land(only God knows the connection between Olu-monkey and Adedibu) God help us thru the redemption of the blood of jesus christ that he used to redeem nigeria as a whole and the whole world.ppl don't panic God is at work, Holy Ghost Working in US, Amen

True Christianity and Politics do not mix. Jesus and the First century christians advoided politics like a plague even though they had the capability of beign good rulers. The whole political system is Satans so it is not even a case of just moral compromise. True Christians will always be persecuted for folowing Jesus example of beign no part of the world. The present nationalistic behaviours and divisions of this world is from the devil. Anybody aligning with the world in world in a political way esp so called christianity muddling in the murky waters of todays world will face the undilutted wrath of God

I laugh when i see so called christians mocking the muslims on this site when they themselves will face the very same judgement.

So called Christianity along with other false religions misleading the whole world are in for adverse judgement. The identity of the harlot of revelation is very clear.


At Bobbyaf i was impressed that you identified who the harlot refered to but don't you also think Babylon the Great includes SDA too? With false teachings like Jesus=God, Trinity n the rest?

Guys i don't like posting on the religion forum because so many misguided fantics esp those who think they r following jesus Grin.

Il rather be in the sports thread talking about AC Milan

@TV01,

I often stress the importance of extrapolating the practical outworking of any doctrinal position. After all, it’s a living faith. A doctrine that on the surface sounds plausible, but does not translate when reality bites, is nothing more than religious procedure.

Don't be deceived by the intellectually plausible argument that you need to understand an outworking of a doctrine before you take it for truth. The things of God don't work that way. You have to believe His Word first, then step out in faith to accomplish that which He has pre-ordained for you. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo wouldn't have taken that stand if they were waiting to understand how God was going to deliver them from fire. Theirs was to believe and take a stand based on faith, God's part was to honour their stand and and outwardly confirm the veracity of their doctrinal position.

I am dissapointed by the quality of your posts TV. I expected scriptures from you to justify your position that politics is evil and under the sphere of the enemy, but you have not done that. Rather, you have taken a doctrinal position based on events and happenings around you. You have erected the citadel of your faith on nuances, men's failings, extrapolations and manipulations that have no biblical basis at all.

Governance and the means of attaining it (politics) are not evil. No Government in history (including biblical history) ever attained and kept their positions without agitation. Even Jesus' millenial reign on earth suggests men will still have the free will to do as they please and suffer the consequences of their actions. I just can't fathom how a learned person like you can be so blind to all the facts made available through scripture, both Old and New. No doubt you bring this scripture to my mind: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

TayoD,

TayoD:

Don't be deceived by the intellectually plausible argument that you need to understand an outworking of a doctrine before you take it for truth. The things of God don't work that way. You have to believe His Word first, then step out in faith to accomplish that which He has pre-ordained for you.

As ever, I am amazed at your willingness to mis-contextualise any statements that oppose your positions and then point to some totally unrelated truth to make your point .

One wonders where you find the time, energy and resources to mutilate Gods holy Word and at once savagely hack through her majesty's English. Dogmaggedness indeed!

Please allow me to clarify. Thank you!

Take for example the following two questions; Should churches have "Sole Authority Pastors"? Is a 10% tithe mandatory for Christians? These are not doctrinal positions of faith as such, they are related to church structure and dynamics within the body of Christ. Likewise, the question of "CP" concerns the practicalities of our everyday walk.

So when I talk of the "practical outworking", even the "Sunday Schoolers" (hi mrpataki ) amongst us should be able to make sense of what I am saying. I notice that you seem to disassociate faith from any sort of understanding. Hopefully, ascribing the belief that "faith is a force" to you would be mistaken?

Not to digress, even faith positions have a practical outworking. I'll take the point in question as muted by TayoD (by the way, do you prefer the appellation, Ripper, Butcher or E'leran? How's about "slasher" ).

The three Hebrew Princes had faith in God to work out thier situation. God would either deliver them physically, or eternally. That is the practical outworking of their faith (trust) in him. Where faith is required, have faith, how else would you please, let alone approach God?

In living out the day to day modalities of the Christian walk I think even the "short knicker" brigade (Hi Havila ), would agree that a modicum of understanding is to be desired.

To insist that one should just "step out in faith" on any doctrinal position (especially based on a faulty exegesis of scripture), is not altogether surprising coming from you. Your discarding of large portions of guideline from the scriptural narrative is easily understood based on what I have discerned to be three of the central tenets of your faith;

"whatever seems good/best in the circumstances"
"By whatever means necessary"
"the end justifies the means"

It's why you can't marshal a cogent scriptural arguement for tithing or SAP, but insist on them, (perhaps because they seemingly work?). It's why you justify "divorce for calling" when all the scriptures regards position and authority in the church demand marital probity. It's why you see only the acquisition of power and not the inherent compromise in CP.

It's why it's hight time you relinquished the orificial, apologies, official position with(in) the G/MOG and learn't to go to God for yourself.

God bless.

@TV01,

I sense your need to justify your position by clearly juxtaposing other issues (real or imaginary) into this discuss. I am not surprised by that since you have no scriptural authority to fall back on. My request is so simple that even a Babe (I don't mean a beautiful lady) in Christ will clearly understand it. In order to avoid making a nonsense of this topic, I want us to clearly spell out and point out our scriptural authorities for the positions we hold. I have these questions for you:

1. Where does the Bible say politics is the root of all evil as you are quick to establish?

2. Where does the Bible say that we should not participate in the government of our day?

3. Where are we told that Ceasar is a force arraigned against the Church as you have claimed?

4. Whose servant is Ceasar? God's or Satan's?

I hope you will provide a clear answer to these and not dribble beyond the goal posts as you have been doing!

My answers to questions 1 through 3 is NONE; and my answer to question 4 is GOD. See Romans 13:4 For he (the State) is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Easily enough done.

1. I never said that. The Bible doesn't say that about anything! Please quote me or the Bible
    (if you can!)

2. Participation in government (as an end result of agitating for worldly power), is no where shown
    or endorsed in scripture. Being called in a "puplic service" capacity is another matter.

3. I have outlined variously examples of the States being arrained against true believers. The
    climax of scripture in Revelations outlines the role of the Beast. Hence, with hindsight or forsight
    identyfying types and shadows of symbolism throughout scripture is quite straightforward.

4. Whose servant is Satan? You are being particularly obtuse here. If I talked about God
    sovreignty once, I've talked about it a hundred times. Your consistent failure to appreciate
    context in the bible and see the "big picture" is quite disappointing. You also fail to make sense to
    any degree of Biblical symbolism. Your whole deployment of scripture appears to be in support of
    your own (G/MOG's) construct.

Permit me to ask you a question, or two.

1. What was the Lords meaning in this verse?
Mark 8:15 ~ Then He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

2. And this one
Luke 20:25 ~ And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." If Caesar is God's servant, why is there an apparent dichotomy in rendering to them?

Anybody?

God bless

@Tayo D

Stop trying to justify partaking of rulership that emanates from the devil. The whole political and nationalistic divisions of this world does not do anything to futher the only Goverment that God approves of; the Goverment of his Son. Members of Christiandom are aligning them selves against the rulership of the King of Kings and would suffer adverse judgement.

Christiandom has largely wallowed in the murky waters of Satans political system and will be destroyed by the very same political alliances that she is making. A pure Harlot, John could not have painted a better picture.

But because the whole world is beign misled by the devil and the harlot (all false religion with most so called 'christian' churches in the fore front), politics has been painted as acceptable and mainstream. Imagine people saying that if there were a majority of christians then things will be good. Yeah right. Look at the example of Jesus and all the first century christians. They had the power to heal, raise the dead and render righteous judgement. Did they partake in politics so things will be good. Nah. they realised that they could not futher any human goverment coz they were and still are all under the rulership of Satan.

True Christians would always be identified by their seprateness from the world and would be persecuted for it even from mainstream religions that have soiled their hands in this worlds political affairs.

Most of Christiandom, like an unfaithful slave has left the work they were commissioned to do and have now turned to lauding human goverments and taking sides in politics.

So much 4 so called 'Christianity'. WWII '"Christians" in Germany and Italy praying for God 2 give them victory and alignng in politics against "Christians" in Britain and the U.S who were also asking God for victory. Both "Christians" killing each other. What a mockery of Christianity.
Little wonder why God's judgement on the Harlot will be so harsh

Whatever happened to what really makes true Christians stand out, Love towards each other and seprateness from the world including its politics .

TV01 u have a very good insight on this topic. Sometimes i wonder why people cant even see what is very clear.

sage:

TV01 u have a very good insight on this topic.

Thank you Sage. But it's by grace. Seek His heart and He will reveal it to you. It was once my default view as well, but truly God's goodness is salvation.

sage:

Sometimes i wonder why people can't even see what is very clear.

Most of them have a big log MOG in their eyes  !

Fight the good fight.

God bless