@sage,

sage:

Continue decieving yourself.

Satan was granted authority to rule the earth and control all human political realms

,Political Neutrality and Separation from the world a must for true christians, is now against God's orders. Hear yourself.

Its funny how you dodge the fact that

1 The Devil is the ruler of the world

2 All wordly Goverments are under his control (he has enough control over them to incite them into opposition of God and hence their destruction Rev 16: 14 to 16)

3 All faithful and true early christians (including Jesus) Rejected and kept away from human politics

4 God clearly intends to destroy Human Rulership.

5 Christiandoms works have exposed her for what she is

I'm used to these sort of infantile rantings, so it's no surprise that you're repeating it at all cost to save face.

The point is that simple: where in God's Word does it say that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE?? Why has it ever been so difficult for you to quote just ONE verse for that heresy you've been noising all through your many rejoinders??

sage:

Your logic is so flawed it stinks

Thank you. If your logic does not stink, please be a gentleman and provide the verse; or convince us how much your ideas stink by leaving it blank.

sage:

Rulership was Granted to Humans by God you say
by the same vein then
Rulership and Control of the earth has also been granted by God to the Devil and the devil controls all human Rulership and true Christians should advoid it.

r

I can't stop laughing.

Another otiose drivel. Please simply provide the verse for that and rest your case.

sage:

The Judgement and destruction of all human rulership along with the spirit ruler of the world and all those who participate in human rulership has already been stated by the bible.

Its is your prerogative. Nobody can make that decision for you. Participate in it if you want. The church can mire itself in all the politics that it wants

the path of true christianity is clear, the same path chosen by early christians.

Total Neutrality with regards to all human political systems orchastrated by the real ruler of the world, Satan.

Seperation from the world (with the realisation that the worlds political and military desires will pass away, dealt with by God)

Realising that the only hope of man is God's Kingdom

The bible has stated that. Participate in what God has promised to destroy without fail. Its your choice, its the choice of hte Church, its the choice of all humans. Do what you wish

Period

This is simply argument by half-baked reasoning. I asked a question: please provide the verse. If you can't do so, rest your case. The Bible NOWHERE stipulates or teaches that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE. Period.

sage:

Well to other people

you all would do well to asks yourselves

Who really rules the world? What controls the political realms of this worlds rulership.


im finished with this thread for now

Anybody that thinks that God is in charge of this world's political affairs should carry on deluding themselves.

And anyone who thinks the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE is most deceived, in as much as they can't find that in the Bible.

sage:

The bible has clearly shown the devil is in charge.

At least nobody so far has denied that God would destroy human rulership along with everything associated with it. The warning is there for all Choose for yourselves

It's a simple question: WHO GIVES RULERSHIP TO PEOPLE - THE DEVIL OR GOD?

and one more thing b/4 i leave

It touches me to see how much damage Christiandom has done .

The example of Jesus and First century Christians on political Neutrality and non participation in politics has been ignored

True worship of God always warned people about involvement with what God plans to completely destroy

Christiandom on the other hand encourages people to participate in it. They engage in the politics of the nations and kill fellow so called christians as a result of their not heeding Jesus command to be separate from the world.

Its so sad. But i guess the bible was right when it said that Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth .

People now want a backing for taking part in something God warns he will surely destroy.

Well what can i say. When i sit back and look at all this, all i can do is

@ Stimulus let me leave you with one more thing

My raising the issue of Jer 13:1,2 was to contrast it with Psalms 37: 9-11

Jeremiah says God planted the wicked, Psalms says God will do away with the wicked. He planted the wicked, he will destroy them

Now does God really plant wicked people so that they can flourish?

And when i asked the question Who is the ruler of the world and the one controlling the earth's political affairs i got no answer?

If you can answer those two questions especially the second one in one word based on the scriptures then your question is answred.

Ciao

@sage,

sage:

and one more thing b/4 i leave

It touches me to see how much damage Christiandom has done .

The example of Jesus and First century Christians on political Neutrality and non participation in politics has been ignored

True worship of God always warned people about involvement with what God plans to completely destroy

Christiandom on the other hand encourages people to participate in it. They engage in the politics of the nations and kill fellow so called christians as a result of their not heeding Jesus command to be separate from the world.

Its so sad. But i guess the bible was right when it said that Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth .

People now want a backing for taking part in something God warns he will surely destroy.

Well what can i say. When i sit back and look at all this, all i can do is

This whole debate with you started by one question I asked, which has been repeated umpteenth times over - and up until now you have NOT in one instance offered the verse that teaches that the devil GIVES rulership to ANYONE.

If you can concede the fact that you stated what is NOT taught in the Bible, then you would have rested you case. And until you provide the direct verse in answer to that question, everything else is simply futile effort to retain your flawed position.

sage:

@ Stimulus let me leave you with one more thing

My raising the issue of Jer 13:1,2 was to contrast it with Psalms 37: 9-11

Jeremiah says God planted the wicked, Psalms says God will do away with the wicked. He planted the wicked, he will destroy them

Now does God really plant wicked people so that they can flourish?

If you want to learn, I'll oblige you. So far, you've been throwing verses around careless in your bid to make them say what they do NOT. The case in point is Jer. 12:1-2. You stated that God planted WICKEDNESS; which is NOT taught in that text or any other.

God plants people in positions of authority who become wicked - upon which God declares that He would divinely judge such leaders.

sage:

And when i asked the question Who is the ruler of the world and the one controlling the earth's political affairs i got no answer?

That was because you were playing your own games and refusing to answer the ONE question I offered you again and again. When you do so, then you will  be able to connect the dot and see how very flawed your ideas have been all through. Can you provide the verse where the devil has EVER GIVEN RULERSHIP to ANYONE??

sage:

If you can answer those two questions especially the second one in one word based on the scriptures then your question is answred.

Ciao

When you come round providing an answer to the question of the devil GIVING rulership to ANYONE, you will find how flawed are your posts. As long as you have NO verse for that, you're removing the rug from under your feet. One verse only is all I ask - then you will be able to reason out clearly why you got it all wrong.

@sage,

My question is a simple one:

WHERE in the BIBLE has the Devil EVER GIVEN RULERSHIP TO ANYONE?

@Stimulus Dont twist words

Jer 13 1,2 says that GOD PLANTED THE WICKED not planted people that later turned wicked. (Thats besides the point)

And throughout this thread uve been asking the same question, well the answer is

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments
and during your Bed time ask yourselves these self searching questions

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule) {its a self searching question, but it also represents my final answer to Stimulus as to who grants authority to rule, the question he keeps repeating in all the thread}

So called Christians have ended up killing themselves in millions and engaging in strifes and contentions due to involvement in the nationalistic politics of todays world in direct contradiction to the example Jesus and the true Early apostles did. Where would participation in politics leave someone who really wants to be a true christian and follow the footsteps of Jesus? Where would there primary alligiances lie? To the Christian brotherhood or to the politics of the nations? Would the millions of so called christians that have killed each other sincerely be said of to have

1 Put the interest of God's kingdom first?

2 Shown love for their so called brothers

3 Kept separate from wordly affairs as required of them?

And lastly where would participation in what God promises to destroy really leave somebody who wants to be a true christian?

These are self searching questions.

@sage,

sage:

@Stimulus Dont twist words

Jer 13 1,2 says that GOD PLANTED THE WICKED not planted people that later turned wicked. (Thats besides the point)

Nope, I didn't twist words in that text; but offered to show that your twisting and denying the same thing about God planting WICKEDNESS was not in those verses.

sage:

And throughout this thread uve been asking the same question, well the answer is

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments
and during your Bed time ask yourselves these self searching questions

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule) {its a self searching question, but it also represents my final answer to Stimulus as to who grants authority to rule, the question he keeps repeating in all the thread}

So called Christians have ended up killing themselves in millions and engaging in strifes and contentions due to involvement in the nationalistic politics of todays world in direct contradiction to the example Jesus and the true Early apostles did. Where would participation in politics leave someone who really wants to be a true christian and follow the footsteps of Jesus? Where would there primary alligiances lie? To the Christian brotherhood or to the politics of the nations? Would the millions of so called christians that have killed each other sincerely be said of to have

1 Put the interest of God's kingdom first?

2 Shown love for their so called brothers

3 Kept separate from wordly affairs as required of them?

And lastly where would participation in what God promises to destroy really leave somebody who wants to be a true christian?

These are self searching questions.

I have carefully read through your "self searching questions" - and for all of that, WHERE is the VERSE that teaches that the devil EVER GAVE rulership to ANYONE?? Why is the verse still missing from your posts up until now, sage??

At least, I gave no less than 6 verses showing clearly that GOD and none else GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes (Dan. 4:32 again for reminder). How is it that you lack the gentlemanliness to offer a verse for the very opposite as you claim??

The passages where the Devil gives Rulership is in Revlation. Il give you the passages but first answer this question which you have been dodging

You keep saying that God ACTIVELY grants power to people rather than allowing a rulership positionn by his PERMISSION ok

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is ACTIVELY Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God ACTIVELY grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

Respond specifically to this.

I have a reason for asking you to respond to this simple question.

You keep bringing up Rom 13 1,2 that all authority is from God and Granted by God. Ok Agreed.

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

If you answer this particular question, once i provide you with the passage of the bible where Satan does assign rulership and then il give you my final remarks as to why Human Rulership is no place for a true christian

stimulus:

@sage,

Nope, I didn't twist words in that text; but offered to show that your twisting and denying the same thing about God planting WICKEDNESS was not in those verses.

I have carefully read through your "self searching questions" - and for all of that, WHERE is the VERSE that teaches that the devil EVER GAVE rulership to ANYONE?? Why is the verse still missing from your posts up until now, sage??

At least, I gave no less than 6 verses showing clearly that GOD and none else GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes (Dan. 4:32 again for reminder). How is it that you lack the gentlemanliness to offer a verse for the very opposite as you claim??

Guy the Bible categorically states that the Devil gives rulership with great authority. The Devil can give Rulership. It is 100% within his Jurisdiction. Il give you the Bible passages.

I just wanted you to see that even using your own argument, your theory that God actively grants human rulership is Flawed and baseless.

Come back and answer the question.

You have been emptily quoting the same verse over and over again as if it will in anyway negate the fact that

1 Satan rules the world

2 God will destroy human rulership and those in it

3 Christians should be separate from the world
and all the other points that i have made from the bible

Uve been emptily quoting that same Roman's 13:1,2 and repeating this verse as if it is an excuse to participate in what God has condemned.

When i listed some of the disgusting acts of the church due to their deviating from the neutrality and teachings practiced by Jesus and his apostles you had no excuse for it. You had no answer to all the Biblical references that makes Christians keeping separate from the world a must.

All you did as a reponse to all the reasoning from the bible that i put out was to keep repeating the same empty question as if it validated anything.

Well the answer to your question. The answer is yes. THE DEVIL CAN HAND POWER AND GIVE RULERSHIP. 100% WITHIN HIS JURISDICTION TO DO THAT. ITS IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE

I just gave you time to choke in your own arguments which have no biblical basis. I went along with you in your own reasoning to your that even with your line of argument, it still holds no water.

So im going to post what i asked again

And please don't post your question again Il answer you comprehensively when you give me an answer to this question

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments


So question remains

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?


This question begs for an answer. No deviating, no changing course answer this question straight out.

And guy, that same question that uve been bogously repeating like it was some insurance againt what God has promised to destroy, After i show you that the Devil Can give Rulership, YOU WILL HAVE TO GO BACK AND ADDRESS all the many points that i have raised from the bible that clearly shows human rulership is not for true Christians and the harlotry of Christiandom (your so called Christianity)

Christiandoms rotten works have found her out but thats to come later. We have to finish your own argument since u keep repeating that there is no authority except from God as if it was an excuse to meddle in wordly politics

ANSWER THE QUESTION IN THE LAST POSTS GUY

And whatever you answer, you have to indicate WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING?. DO YOU IN ANYWAY MEAN BY THAT THAT GOD APPROVES OF IT, ENDORSES IT OR ALLOWS HIS TRUE SERVANTS TO PARTICIPATE IN IT?

YOU HAVE BEEN POINTLESSLY REPEATING THAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE AS IF IT WAS A VALIDATORY POINT, IGNORING ALL THE HALLMARKS OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY AND FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN EXAMPLES IN THE PROCESS AND GOD'S OWN SACRED PLAN AND WORDS

Now answer those questions in the previous post and the one i raised ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING HUMAN RULERSHIP .

If you answer thEse questions, (then il really surprise since you say you don't know) by showing scriptures that clearly indicate that the devil does indeed give Rulership

@sage,

sage:

The passages where the Devil gives Rulership is in Revlation. Il give you the passages but first answer this question which you have been dodging

I'd be glad if you could quote it. As far as I'm aware, perhaps what you might be referring to is Revelation 13:2 - "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

As you can see, this is speaking of the devil giving diabolic powers to the beast; and not to be confused for your earlier claim that:

1 The devil is the ruler of the world, human rulership is under his influence and it is to whom he wishes that he gives rulership

Now, does Rev. 13:2 speak of the devil giving human rulership to whom he wishes? You will not find it stated or taught anywhere in God's Word. Why do I maintain that persuasion? For two reasons:

(a) It is God's exclusive prerogative to GIVE human rulership to whomsoever He wishes. Text after text after text both in the OT and NT declare this very fact in such unmistakable terms, which I have referenced earlier. God NOWHERE deligated such prerogative to anyone else - men, angels, spirits or the devil. The fact that God reserved that right to Himself ALONE and declares the same is indicative of something many people miss: His Sovereignty.

(b) In giving those governments, God stipulates what believers should do in relation to them: respect, obey, and pray for them - I've offered texts for these as well. If we are to stand completely aloof, those texts would not have been penned, let alone asking us to even pray for and obey them. What is even significant here is that, there is no exception made to ANY one of these human rulerships/governments (Rom. 13:1). You can't pray for or obey these governments in any form if they were GIVEN by the devil.

Which brings me to a very important point: does Rev. 13:2 speak of the sort of Government (in terms of "human rulership" as God gives) that one is to respect, obey and pray for?? The diabolical operations of the beast empowered by the devil are spelt out in Rev. 13:7 & 8 - and that is NOT something akin to what we have been discussing all this while.

Not one text in the entire Bible teaches that the devil GIVES human rulership to whom he wishes, and Rev. 13:2 speaks of what the devil does in the apocalypse - a completely different matter altogether that in no way substantiates your argument.

sage:

You keep saying that God ACTIVELY grants power to people rather than allowing a rulership positionn by his PERMISSION ok

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is ACTIVELY Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

Here again is why your reasoning is flawed:

(a) God did NOT grant/give the devil rulership of the affairs of the world, nor does the Bible teach what you're assuming. I've already dealt with this issue earlier, and incase you missed it, follow the gist in this link and find out what the Bible means when it speaks of the devil as the prince, ruler, and god of this world.

(b) your assumption that the devil is in control of world affairs directly contradicts God's Word, for we are taught in several texts already mentioned that God is in control - and that is why believers are to obey, respect and pray for them. The devil does not GIVE rulership to anyone; neither is he in control of the affairs of the world as you strenuously assert.

sage:

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God ACTIVELY grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

God did NOT grant/give rulership of the world to the devil. Please sage, for every heresy you drivel on about, it would help if you could show WHERE it says that God gave the devil rulership IN THE SAME MANNER as He gives human governments. If you're not satisfied with the explanation offered earlier as to the meaning of the devil being referred to as the prince/ruler/god of this world, then let me know, and it would be no bother reposting the whole portion for your consideration.

sage:

Respond specifically to this.

I have a reason for asking you to respond to this simple question.

You keep bringing up Rom 13 1,2 that all authority is from God and Granted by God. Ok Agreed.

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

Again and again, I have referred you to the meaning of what such terms mean. God did NOT grant/give the devil rulership over the world to mean that the sinister minister of sin is in CONTROL of the worlds political realm. Read Rom. 13 again. That the devil can influence evil in political governments does not mean that he is in control of them; nor yet that he GIVES them in the first place.

sage:

If you answer this particular question, once i provide you with the passage of the bible where Satan does assign rulership and then il give you my final remarks as to why Human Rulership is no place for a true christian

There are the answers above. If there's a verse different from Rev. 13:2, I'll be glad to consider it.

@sage,

sage:

Guy the Bible categorically states that the Devil gives rulership with great authority. The Devil can give Rulership. It is 100% within his Jurisdiction. Il give you the Bible passages.

That the devil GIVES rulership is NOWHERE stated in the Bible as being within his jurisdiction. I would like for you to quote the verse that helps your fallacy and then mirror that against what is stated in Rom. 13:1 (ALT - 'but the existing authorities have been appointed by God'; or ESV - 'For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God').

sage:

I just wanted you to see that even using your own argument, your theory that God actively grants human rulership is Flawed and baseless.

No worries. That only tells me you have a huge problem reading the Bible for what it says in order to supplant your fallacies. Go read them again: Psa. 62:11; Jer.27:4-6; Dan. 4:32; 5:18; John 19:11; 1 Pet. 2:13-14. And there's more if you want them.

sage:

Come back and answer the question.

You have been emptily quoting the same verse over and over again as if it will in anyway negate the fact that

1 Satan rules the world

I've answered your questions; and you can term my quoting verses to the point as however best suits you - it only demonstrates that you will forcefully blind yourself to the clear statements of Scripture in your desperate drive to stand as an accuser of the Church. Which is no wonder; because again and again, history repeats itself in people who see nothing glorious of of what God says about His Church.

sage:

2 God will destroy human rulership and those in it

That being the case, you put yourself under God's destruction as well, in as much as you're in a place where human rulership exists by God's direct ordinance.

sage:

3 Christians should be separate from the world
and all the other points that i have made from the bible

Christians in their separation should obey, respect, and pray for the governments that God has established by His own Sovereignty. To stand aloof will require a direct disobedience to what God has established; and doing so will bring dire consequences to disobedient people.

sage:

Uve been emptily quoting that same Roman's 13:1,2 and repeating this verse as if it is an excuse to participate in what God has condemned.

Open your eyes and read it well. Your pages upon pages of silly pranks to suppose what Scripture does not teach can be solved by reading God's Word.

sage:

When i listed some of the disgusting acts of the church due to their deviating from the neutrality and teachings practiced by Jesus and his apostles you had no excuse for it. You had no answer to all the Biblical references that makes Christians keeping separate from the world a must.

That is true - I had NO EXCUSES for your misconceptions, because the Bible does not teach me the herecies you levied against THE CHURCH. The Word of God does not teach a NEUTRALITY that you've been noising endlessly in this thread, and all other fallacies that you have been unable to adduce direct references for.

As regards Biblical references for Christian separation from the world, I addressed them well - and it is no surprise that you're quick to repeat your jokes that I did not.

sage:

All you did as a reponse to all the reasoning from the bible that i put out was to keep repeating the same empty question as if it validated anything.

All I did - that?? Now that says a whole lot about your poor scholarship. Go read where I addressed issues without circumventing them; and gave several verses to the point. I repeated the same question over and over again because you were typically prancing around and fudging it.

sage:

Well the answer to your question. The answer is yes. THE DEVIL CAN HAND POWER AND GIVE RULERSHIP. 100% WITHIN HIS JURISDICTION TO DO THAT. ITS IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE

Oga, where is the verse for that?? WHY oh WHY has it been sooooo difficult for you to give me the verse for your 100% fallacy??

sage:

I just gave you time to choke in your own arguments which have no biblical basis. I went along with you in your own reasoning to your that even with your line of argument, it still holds no water.

Thanks - I understanding the ambulance was called to help nurse you back from chocking on yours, since page after page you had it so difficult to provide the verse for your fallacy. That the Bible clearly shows that God and He ALONE gives human rulership has been stated and substantiated with text after text after text - poor you to have sweated them round to make no meaning to your scholarship.

sage:

So im going to post what i asked again

No worries - you'll come back knotting yourself yet again.

@sage,

sage:

And please don't post your question again Il answer you comprehensively when you give me an answer to this question

Oh, I see you're getting really defenceless already. Dress warm, it can only get better.

sage:

Since the bible is clear that the devil is the ruler of the world and in control of its affairs and as you say all authority is Granted by God, WHO granted the devil rulership over the world? (If you come to a conclusion that God ACTIVELY granted him that rulership that is ruining the world, then yes God actively grants humans power. If you come to a conclusion that God permits him to rule, then yes God permits humans leaders to rule)

So whoever granted the devil rulership and control over the world also grants humans rulership in the same manner and under the control of the devil.
If God actively grants the devil rulership over the world, so does he to humans, if the devil is ruling the world with his permission, so are human goverments

So question remains

The devil is the ruler of the world and controls the worlds political realm and is ruining the earth. DOES GOD ACTIVELY GRANT THE DEVIL RULERSHIP OVER THE WORLD?

This question begs for an answer. No deviating, no changing course answer this question straight out.

Addressed already. Scroll up and see.

@sage,

sage:

And guy, that same question that uve been bogously repeating like it was some insurance againt what God has promised to happen, After i show you that the Devil Can give Rulership, You will have to go back and address all the many points that i have raised from the bible that clearly shows human rulership is not for true Christians and the harlotry of Christiandom (your so called Christianity)

No wahala. If Romans 13 tells you that God was setting up harlotry for Christians to obey, then come back and receive some grown-up lessons.

sage:

Christiandoms rotten works have found her out but thats to come later. We have to finish your own argument since u keep repeating that there is no authority except from God

Oh yes, my guy. The verses haven't changed one bit even if you bite your finger a hundred times wishing that it was otherwise.

sage:

ANSWER THE QUESTION IN THE LAST POSTS GUY

Done.

sage:

And whatever you answer, you have to indicate WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING?. DO YOU IN ANYWAY MEAN BY THAT THAT GOD APPROVES OF IT, ENDORSES IT OR ALLOWS HIS TRUE SERVANTS TO PARTICIPATE IN IT?

Point of correction: that term "ACTIVELY GRANTING" was yours, not mine. I have offered several texts to show that God and He ALONE GIVES rulership to whomsoever He wishes. The meaning of that is as stated in Romans 13:1 in the several English versions of the Bible -

GW - "Every person should obey the government in power. No government would exist if it hadn't been established by God. The governments which exist have been put in place by God."

KJV - "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

NET - "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God" (also as in ESV and EMTV).

NIV - "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

So, when making reference to God GIVING rulership to whomsoever He wishes, it bears the meaning expressed by the various connotations above - "established, put in place, ordained, appointed, instituted". Daniel 4:32 affirms this - "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will", and that is what I have stated umpteenth times that the devil CANNOT do.

sage:

YOU HAVE BEEN POINTLESSLY REPEATING THAT VERSE OF THE BIBLE AS IF IT WAS A VALIDATORY POINT, IGNORING ALL THE HALLMARKS OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY AND FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN EXAMPLES IN THE PROCESS AND GOD'S OWN SACRED PLAN AND WORDS

Shout it as loud as you can, I ignored nothing. If you want to discuss Biblical Christianity, I'm one up for that. However, you cannot use a flawed notion of the devil GIVING rulership to ANYONE to launch your antics against the CHURCH. What you have been endlessly unable to substantiate has been repeated again and again, and if you cannot face up to it, simply say so.

sage:

Now answer those questions in the previous post and the one i raised ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY ACTIVELY GRANTING HUMAN RULERSHIP

Done.

sage:

If you answer thEse questions, (then il really surprise since you say you don't know) by showing scriptures that clearly indicate that the devil does indeed give Rulership

If it is other than Rev. 13:2 which I have dealt with, I'm all yours and waiting.

Guy you are funny

You are running around
So all authority is not Granted actively by GOd?

Answer the question.

The bible says that the Devil is the ruler of the world.

Did God grant him that power Actively.

Simple

put a yes or no unless you are to start arguing that the devil is not the ruler of the world.

Regarding Christian attitudes to Goverments, i have already stated it here.

Christians are to obey the Goverment, Pay there taxes and Obey Caesar's laws that do not conflict with Divine instruction.

Those Goverments are in place because God wants them to be in place. If not, they wont be there.

But answer that question.

The bible makes it crystal clear that the Devil is the ruler of the world and he controls world leaders enough to put them in opposition to God.

Who actively grants him that power or those Satan rule the world thru God's permission?

And Stop saying that to defend the church.


When the apostles were asked to cease from talking about the Kingdom of Christ, they were clear on that. They would obey God as ruler rather than men. They respected Caesar enough to obey him as long as it did not conflict with divine instruction(though they did not participate in their politics)

And take the question ive been asking out of the way so we can now get to discussing the Fact that Satan does give rulership to Man.

@sage,

sage:

And take the question ive been asking out of the way so we can now get to discussing the Fact that Satan does give rulership to Man.

Wey the verse now??

I didn't realize that you're such a comedian. Your mischievious rantings have been addressed time and again. If you're not going to address the simple question I offered you (after severally dodging and circumventing it), then point made: you have no verse for your fallacies as to the devil GIVING rulership to whomsoever he wishes.

WHERE in the Bible is it written that the devil has EVER [B]GIVEN[/B] (i.e., "established, put in place, ordained, appointed, instituted" HUMAN RULERSHIP?

If you can't understand that statement as simple as it is, then please sage give me a verse that shows where the devil does or has EVER done exactly what God ALONE is declared in Scripture to do, as we find in the following:

Daniel 4:32 - "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will."

Jeremiah 27:5 - "I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto Me."

@Stimulus,

You get patience o!!!

@TayoD,

TayoD:

@Stimulus,

You get patience o!!!

My bros, wetin I for do?

It's cases like this that should make readers understand the antics of discussants who make unsubstantiated assertions in a desperate bid to maintain their default heresies.

Have you noticed that all through his several rejoinders, he maintains that God only "permits" human rulership; while it is the devil that GIVES rulership to whomsoever he wills. I'm yet to read him say the same thing about the devil "permitting" human rulership, and he strenuously ascribes that passive role of "ALLOWING" or "PERMITTING" to God.

Making such assertions without a verse for his claims only tells me that such reasoning is hell-bent on glorifying the devil, than ascribing to God the glory due unto Him. After more than 35 replies which he posted following my initial enquiry, sage has not been able to provide a direct text to my simple question, nevermind his continued circumvention to repeated request that he addresses it.

If he is not going to be gentlemanly enough to preserve what is left of his already waning scholarship, we should just leave him to his fallacies. So, just once more:

Abeg, sage, Where is the verse that says the devil "GIVES, ESTABLISHES, INSTITUTES, ORDAINS, APPOINTS, SETS UP, or PUTS IN PLACE" any human rulership to whomsoever he wishes, as exactly as God claims for Himself in such texts as Dan. 4:32; Jer. 27:5; and Rom. 13:1??

If you CANNOT find that verse, is it too much to say so and rest the case, bros??

@Sage,

If you CANNOT find that verse, is it too much to say so and rest the case, bros??

Over to you!!!!!!

Guyy il post those scriptures for you dont worry. (it will be a long post and im a lil busy now) but i want you to answer this question straight. Dont bring up the issue of where the passages are. IL give them to you

You cant seem to answer those simple questions. Address these questions seperately

1 The devil is the ruler of the world. He controls the political realm and ultimate control over the wordly political system (Rev 16: 14'16). He did not forcefully take that power from God. For him to be the ruler of the earth he has to be given that authority. Who gave the devil the authority to rule the world and in what manner?

2 When i contrasted Jeremiah 13: 1,2to other scriptureswhich says God planted the wicked?. What does that mean and in what sense did God plant the Wicked?


Thirdly you are wrongly corelating the scripture in Daniel to the one one in Romans to say that God approves of his true servants participating in politics. That is totally wrong. Il address that when i come back

Il come back when i finish doing some of what im bugged down with now.

Answer those questions though

im back now.

Let me answer your question once and for all.

You can use your Bible and follow. Any person who has been following this debate should pa close attention

To start with lets examine bible references to Human rulership in Daniel.
Daniel Chap: 7:2-8 describes four beasts coming out of the sea. [color=#550000]A Lion, Bear, Leopard, and a huge fearsome beast with ten horns. Dan:7:17 clearly identify these beasts as representing Human rulers on earth.[/color] In a second vision Daniel in Chap 8:3-8, 20-25 sees a two-horned ram that is struck down by a He-goat with a Great horn (which was later replaced by 4 horns). [color=#990000]These creatures along with the horns were clearly explained to Daniel as representing human rulership (representing the dual world power Medo Persia and Greece).

Now moving along to Revelation.
In Revelation chap 12:7-9 identifies the Dragon as Satan the Devil.
R[color=#770077]ev 13:1,2 describes a Wild beast with Seven heads and ten horns also ascending out of the sea. The beast also posseses the Characteristic of a Leopard, Bear, a Lion, and possessed Ten horns (The very same characteristics of the beasts that represented human rulership in the vision shown to Daniel). And The Dragon, Satan gives the seven headed beast Rulership[/color]. Rev16:10-16 shows that action taken by God would result in the Dragon and The wild beast acting to gather the all the political rulers of the world in opposition to God. Rev 13:11-15 describes the emergence of a two horned beast which acts with the authority of the Dragon and will give breath to the image of the seven headed wild beast which was set up by humans. The image of the wild beast now go on to take an active part in the rulership of the earth, mislead the Earths inhabitants and have them follow it. Rev: Chap 17:2-10 reveals the identity of the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns. It calls it kings or mountains (Mountains and Kings have been used in the bible to refer to governmental powers. Compare Jeremiah 51:24,25, Dan 2:34,35,44,45) and also refers to the horns on the wild beast as Rulers who would unite to fight against God’s King Christ (compare Rev 16: 14,16 Rev19:17,18) Clearly The Seven headed ten horned Beast that had been given Power and Authority by the Devil represents world rulership and political system under the control of the devil.

After the destruction of the Harlot (whose identity scares Tayo D ) by the Beasts., Rev 19:15-21describes the destruction of the wild beast, human rulers and their military forces at the hands of God's king then rightful rulership is given back to Christ.

Since the wild beast and its image refer to Human rulership or the human political system, the Dragon grants this wild beast its rulership and authority


This completely harmonizes with other passages of the bible that clearly identify the Devil as the ruler of the world

Luke 4:6, 1st John 5:19, John 14:30,

John 12:31, John 16:11

2nd Corinthians 4:4

This discussion is really more extensive than this. Il come and give a few more postings later in the day before i log out of this discussion

we have been arguing this for a while but let us examine this.

Rev Chap 18 gives a very classical example of the sense in which Caesar is God's Servant

The Seven headed wild beast which recieved its rulership from the devil is also used by God to achieve God's purposes. The Harlot that sits on masses of people, that had formed an unholy alliance with the beast (Human Political rulers), is destroyed by the same Beast she had been in colaboration at the instigation of God. God puts it into the hearts of these rulers to carry out his will even though their rulership power comes from the Devil.

The bible is clear that the wild beast (human rulership) recieves its power and authority from the Devil but God has ultimate power and even though the wild beast is under the direct control and influence of Satan, God can still use human rulers to achieve his purposes. It is within his power to do so.



The fact that God uses the beast to accomplish his will still did not mean that the wild beast was not to be destroyd.

God turns around and destroys this wild beast (Human Rulers) and everything associated with human rulership, including their military

@Sage
Haba!  Understandest thou what thou readest?  I couln't help but ask!   

@Stimulus
Thanks for your patience.  You are doing just well and have added to my understanding.  I will leave Sage for you.  I thought this topic has long been concluded. . .

God bless y'all.

Analytical:

@Sage
Haba!  Understandest thou what thou readest?  I couln't help but ask!  

@Stimulus
Thanks for your patience.  You are doing just well and have added to my understanding.  I will leave Sage for you.  I thought this topic has long been concluded. . .

God bless y'all.

What do you mean by that .  Did you read those scriptures at all

Stimulus has been asking for an example of where the devil gives rulership to human rulers. He kept asking the question as if it would  negate what the scriptures has promised is in store for Human Rulership and all those that partake of it and their military forces. He keeps asking those questions like it would nulify the example Jesus and his apostles set for any true christians with regards to wordly political affairs.


The bible identifies the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns as human rulers. It is interesting to note that the image of the wild beast given rulership by the Devil is formed by Men who now pledge their alligiance to it.

The way the Angel identified the wild beast as human rulership is uncomfortable to the vast majority of those on earth but so is Truth in general.

I want him to reply to this and then il post my last postings and lay my case to rest.

@sage,

Many thanks for at last offering an answer to my question. Forgive my inability the past few days to post a reply due to tight schedules, but I was impressed all the same.

However, before coming back to deal with the verses you offered in defence of your persuasions, I'd like you to carefully go through them again and mirror your discourse on Rom. 13:1-4 and the other verses from the OT I've severally offered. Particularly, I'd like you to reflect on what relationship Christians bear in respect to the beastly powers which you misconstrue for political and civil governments of our time as God gives them.

Second, please carefully reflect on your misconstruing the "harlot" for THE CHURCH; and then see if it makes any sense at all that you might be mistaken - and gravely so.

Lord willing, this weekend I'll be back to address the points you raised and hope that you'll find me the verse that specifically stipulates your statement that the devil "gives" human rulership to whomever he pleases.

Cheers.

@Ananlytical,

Thanks for your commendation. It makes any reader wonder that it would take nothing less that 35 replies to get sage offering even one verse that stipulates what he categorically stated, and which he continued to maintain for that long. Bottomline is that, we can only try to reason with people; and if they would rather take it otherwise, mercy to them.

Blessings

@Stimulus no problems. We are all busy from time to time.

stimulus:

@sage,

Many thanks for at last offering an answer to my question. Forgive my inability the past few days to post a reply due to tight schedules, but I was impressed all the same.

However, before coming back to deal with the verses you offered in defence of your persuasions, I'd like you to carefully go through them again and mirror your discourse on Rom. 13:1-4 and the other verses from the OT I've severally offered. Particularly, I'd like you to reflect on what relationship Christians bear in respect to the beastly powers which you misconstrue for political and civil governments of our time as God gives them.

Second, please carefully reflect on your misconstruing the "harlot" for THE CHURCH; and then see if it makes any sense at all that you might be mistaken - and gravely so.

Lord willing, this weekend I'll be back to address the points you raised and hope that you'll find me the verse that specifically stipulates your statement that the devil "gives" human rulership to whomever he pleases.

Cheers.

Meanwhile i did not misconstrue anything. The bible revealed the identity of the wild beast that recieves rulership from the devil in the book of Revelation as rulers, the same way it did for Daniel. Go through those scriptures that i posted. It wont be hard for any good bible student to have identified who the beasts were referring to even before the angel clearly identified it. The similarities to the beasts of Daniel are just too striking to miss.

Its also interesting to know that humans made an image of this beast and it begins active rulership over humans and humans now pledge their allegiance to it.


Il come back and discuss Romans 13:1-4. In fact Romans 13:1-4 was written by a politically neutral apostle to a politically neutral Christian congregatin in Rome. Those First Century Christians clearly understood that their Christian calling left no room for any sort of participation in the wordly political system. BUT THEY ALSO CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT OBEYING CAESARS COMMANDS WHICH DO NOT CONFLICT WITH CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES WAS A CHRISTIAN OBLIGATION. CHRISTIANS WERE NOT TO TO TRY TO SUBVERT THE STATE IN ANYWAY. But Neither that nor the book of Daniel in anyway condone true Christians participation in the political affairs of the world.

Il give my final thoughts and also put an end to my side of this discussion. I believe i have done this topic justice. Everybody has his choices 2 make in life