There is nothing wrong in chritsina joing political parties, but what i annoying me is saying that God said its gonna be u , dang! its democracy, its the power of the majority that rule, Most christians in politics today are just using the name of God in vein.As a pastor or whatever, once in get into the political arena.You should not use ur religion as an excuse, let u activities.motivation and political agenda speake for.Its not all about the religion, dang!

stimulus:

@Ananlytical,

Thanks for your commendation. It makes any reader wonder that it would take nothing less that 35 replies to get sage offering even one verse that stipulates what he categorically stated, and which he continued to maintain for that long. Bottomline is that, we can only try to reason with people; and if they would rather take it otherwise, mercy to them.

Blessings

i wanted to answer your question in due time. I really wanted you to see that in the light of bible promises and God's divine plan, the human political system has no future and is not where a true Christian should be found. Whatever my answer to that singular question was and still is not going to change God's plan to end human rulership. I was amazed at the way you kept pounding on it as the answer to that question would nullify all what the bible had said.

But i was going to answer you that question regardless.

@sage,

Right, I'm a bit less busy so hereare my rejoinders to yours; and thanks for your patience.

I'll start by answering the points you raised in your earlier reposte and then come up to date with the latest. Pardon my being comprehensive; but just so that no one misses the clarity of the points I'd be delineating.

sage:

Guyy il post those scriptures for you don't worry. (it will be a long post and im a little busy now) but i want you to answer this question straight. Dont bring up the issue of where the passages are. IL give them to you

You can't seem to answer those simple questions. Address these questions seperately

1 The devil is the ruler of the world. He controls the political realm and ultimate control over the wordly political system (Rev 16: 14'16). He did not forcefully take that power from God. For him to be the ruler of the earth he has to be given that authority.

First, let me quote Rev. 16:14 & 16 - "¹⁴For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty . . . And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Now, come off it sage, these verses do not tell us that the devil has ULTIMATE CONTROL of the political realm and worldly political systems. That he influences political governments with his diabolical operations is not to be stretched to mean he has ULTIMATE CONTROL over them.

Just to buttress the point of who has "ultimate control" of the world, please go over the verses again:

Psa. 62:11
"God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God" (power does NOT belong to the devil).

Prov. 21:1
"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."

Dan. 4:17
"the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

Dan. 4:32
"the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will."

Dan. 5:21
"till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that He appointeth over it whomsoever He will."

Psa. 75:7
"But God is the judge: He putteth down one, and setteth up another."

Rom. 13:1
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Please remember that the core question has been if there was ANY verse clearly teaching that the devil GIVES (i.e., ORDAINS, SETS UP, ESTABLISHES, INSTITUTES, APPOINTS, or PUTS IN PLACE) human rulership, and does so to whomsoever he wishes. I don't find any verse teaching that in the Bible; and not one comes close to proposing the idea that the devil does the same thing as God does in the verses just cited above.

Now, carefully look again at Rev. 16:14 & 16 that you quoted; you would see it says no more than that the spirits of devils (or demons) go forth unto the kings of the earth to gather them to the battle of the great day. To "go forth unto" and to "gather" the kings of the earth do not mean the same thing as to "GIVE, APPOINT, ORDAIN, or ESTABLISH" those kings in the first place! The question then for you, sage is: "WHERE does it teach that the devil APPOINTED or ORDAINED those KINGS of the earth?"

Let me illustrate this point for you about how the devil tries to diabolically influence the kings/rulers of the earth through the activities of demonic spirits. Read Acts 13:8-12. Elymas the sorcerer was trying to influence the deputy to turn away from the faith. Notice what the Spirit-filled Paul said to the sorcerer: "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" Here we see a demonic spirit in the sorcerer trying to diabolically influence a ruler (the deputy) in just the same way as Rev. 16:14 & 16 tells us that these spirits of devils "go forth unto" the kings of the earth. And when you read further in Acts 13, you find God was in ULTIMATE CONTROL as Paul pronounced blindness on Elymas the sorcerer (vs. 11-12).

The devil is NOT in "ultimate control" over anything in the world God has set up, whether world political systems or anything else pertaining to the civil lives of people in the world. Dan. 4:26 - 'And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.'

sage:

Who gave the devil the authority to rule the world and in what manner?

I've tried to explain the context in which the devil is spoken of as the god/ruler/prince of this world, as well the manner in which he exercises his diabolical activities. Let me first repost the relevant section for you, and then answer your question in a simplistic manner:

There are several contexts of the word "world" in Scripture. 1 John 5:19 does not suppose at all that the devil has absolute power or control of the world in the sense of being in control over the universe; for that is alone the prerogative of the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom it is doubly testified that He upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb. 1:3), and by Him all things consist (Col. 1:17).

When Scripture speaks of the devil as the god of this world (2 Cor. 4;4), it is in reference to the rebellious system of men and fallen angels in the world. It is from such a rebellious system that the Lord Jesus gave Himself to deliver us (Gal. 1:4 - 'that He might deliver us from this present evil world'). This rebellious and ungodly system of which the devil stands as the prince is expounded for us in Eph. 2:2 & 3 - "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Never forget that all power in heaven and on earth is in the hands of the Lord Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18); and in the Lord's prayer, believers recognize that the power and the glory and the Kingdom belongs to God (Matt. 6:13), and not at all to the devil.

Hence, when the Bible speaks of the devil as the prince, ruler, or god of this world, it is in reference to a rebellious system operating in the lives of the ungodly. It is not in reference to any idea of the devil setting up or giving rulership to anyone in the first place.

Now to answer your question again in a simplistic way,

(a) Who gave the devil the authority to rule the world?

The devil does NOT rule the world in any sense in which God is the Ruler of all that He has made (Psa. 29:10 - 'The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever'; Psa. 103:19 - "The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all". God did NOT create him as the "DEVIL" nor gave him DIABOLICAL powers or authority.  He was created as 'Lucifer' and set as the anointed cherub (Ezek 28:14 -"Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so". The devil turned his God-given power/authority as the anointed cherub into something other than was given or intended (Ezek. 28:15 - "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee"; and Ezek. 28:18 -"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick".

It is vital here to understand that the devil operates by diabolical powers and authority - which he never received from God. And as already explained above, he is called the ruler/god/prince of this world in reference to a rebellious system that is as ungodly in all its ramifications as he himself. Such terms as used of the devil do not suggest that he rules in ULTIMATE CONTROL over God's creation in ANY sphere.

It is for this reason that the devil is NEVER called "the Lord of the world", or "the king of this world", in as much as believers know for a certainty that GOD ALONE is heralded as LORD of HEAVEN and EARTH (Acts 17:24).

(b) to rule the world and in what manner?

The devil "rules" in the sense of being the head of a REBELLIOUS and UNGODLY SYSTEM, variously expressed as "the course of this world" (Eph. 2:2); and "this present evil world" (Gal. 1:4). As 'the prince of the power of the air', he is at work in the children of disobedience (Eph. 2:2).

sage:

2 When i contrasted Jeremiah 13: 1,2to other scriptureswhich says God planted the wicked?. What does that mean and in what sense did God plant the Wicked?

The Word of God shows us He does not set up wicked men to be rulers over His people without a cause. There are times when He appoints good rulers who bring relief and good governance to erring people, as in the case of Othniel in Judg. 3:7-11. But when they did evil in the sight of the LORD, He made them serve Eglon the king of Moab for eighteen years (vs. 12-14).

However, there are other instances where God appoints cruel rulers over nations as a sign of His judgement to those people. This is exemplified in many texts of Scripture, as in Isaiah 19:4 - "And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts."

What we should not fail to notice is that, it is not the devil that appoints or ordains these cruel rulers; God Himself is the One who appoints, sets up, or ordains these kings and rulers in every instance. Rulers may become wicked men, influenced by the devil unto ungodly and rebellious governance in their kingdoms; but even so, Scripture teaches that it is GOD ALONE who appoints or ordains kings and rulers.

However, we also learn that every king and ruler who has operated in wickedness and iniquity will be divinely judged by God on the day of reckoning:

Job 34:11 - 'For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.'

Isa 13:11 - 'And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.'

Nothing can be farther from truth to suppose that God will punish and destroy EVERY ruler and king regardless of their performance in the exercise of their governance. Quite on the contrary, Scripture teaches the following:

Eze 33:15 - "If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die."

Prov. 29:14 - 'The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.'

sage:

Thirdly you are wrongly corelating the scripture in Daniel to the one one in Romans to say that God approves of his true servants participating in politics. That is totally wrong. Il address that when i come back

Il come back when i finish doing some of what im bugged down with now.

Answer those questions though

I did not argue that any verse in the Bible necessarily gives the license for Christians participating in politics. My entrée into the dicussion of this thread was a simple question challenging the idea that the devil gives human rulership to whomever he wishes. My position has been consistent right on through to the present, that God and He ALONE appoints human rulersship as attested in both Daniel and Romans. Once you can see that, then the several wrong assertions you've made become obvious to you.

@sage,

sage:

To start with lets examine bible references to Human rulership in Daniel.
Daniel Chap: 7:2-8 describes four beasts coming out of the sea. [color=#550000]A Lion, Bear, Leopard, and a huge fearsome beast with ten horns. Dan:7:17 clearly identify these beasts as representing Human rulers on earth.[/color] In a second vision Daniel in Chap 8:3-8, 20-25 sees a two-horned ram that is struck down by a He-goat with a Great horn (which was later replaced by 4 horns). [color=#990000]These creatures along with the horns were clearly explained to Daniel as representing human rulership (representing the dual world power Medo Persia and Greece).

Now moving along to Revelation.
In Revelation chap 12:7-9 identifies the Dragon as Satan the Devil.
R[color=#770077]ev 13:1,2 describes a Wild beast with Seven heads and ten horns also ascending out of the sea. The beast also posseses the Characteristic of a Leopard, Bear, a Lion, and possessed Ten horns (The very same characteristics of the beasts that represented human rulership in the vision shown to Daniel). And The Dragon, Satan gives the seven headed beast Rulership[/color]. Rev16:10-16 shows that action taken by God would result in the Dragon and The wild beast acting to gather the all the political rulers of the world in opposition to God. Rev 13:11-15 describes the emergence of a two horned beast which acts with the authority of the Dragon and will give breath to the image of the seven headed wild beast which was set up by humans. The image of the wild beast now go on to take an active part in the rulership of the earth, mislead the Earths inhabitants and have them follow it. Rev: Chap 17:2-10 reveals the identity of the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns. It calls it kings or mountains (Mountains and Kings have been used in the bible to refer to governmental powers. Compare Jeremiah 51:24,25, Dan 2:34,35,44,45) and also refers to the horns on the wild beast as Rulers who would unite to fight against God’s King Christ (compare Rev 16: 14,16 Rev19:17,18) Clearly The Seven headed ten horned Beast that had been given Power and Authority by the Devil represents world rulership and political system under the control of the devil.

Interesting. However, you clearly missed the issues presented in these texts as relating to the core question that has brought us up until this point. I'd like you to see that these are dealing with the apocalypse of the endtime when Satan gathers the rulers of the world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty at Armegeddon (Rev. 16:14, 16). Infact, when reading Daniel's prophecy, note that the events described in chapters 7 & 8 were said to have reference to the endtimes:

Dan. 8:17, 19, 26; 10:14
"So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. . . And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. . . And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. . .Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Again and again, Daniel was told that the vision did not apply to his time and day; nor are we to take it to mean that we are already in the day of the Armageddon. There are a few things you should see in this connection:

(a) the time of these beastly kings - "at the time of the end shall be the vision" (ch. 8:17)

(b) the nature of their ascension to power -
"four great beasts came up from the sea. . . four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (ch. 7:3 & 17)

(c) the operation and [/b]character[/b] of their power -
"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them . . .
and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered" (ch. 7:21 & 8:12)
"he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws" (ch. 7:25).

(d) the diabolical source of their powers -
"his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power" (Dan. 8:24)
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast" (Rev. 13:4).

The basic reason why I delineated these issues is so we do not mistake the apocalyptic visions of the endtime for that which God in His grace at the present time offers to the nations in terms of civil governments which HE ALONE appoints (Rom. 13:1). When dealing with the ultimate rebellion instigated by Satan, we should not confuse issues and lump them up as applying to EVERY political government in the world presently. The following reasons are why I'm persuaded that there is a distinction between them:

(a) In EVERY government appointed by God (Rom. 13:1), Christians are actively to RESPECT, OBEY, and PRAY for them (1 Tim. 2:1-2; 1 Pet. 2:13-14). Whereas, in the beastly kings of the apocalypse, we are not urged to show the same deference to them.

(b) The civil and political governments appointed by God bear the following features: they are "sent by Him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well" (1 Pet. 2:14); also, these "rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. . .he is the minister of God to thee for good . .a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil (Rom. 13:3-4). Whereas, the apocalyptic beastly rulers are the direct opposite, such that they "cast down the truth to the ground; and practised, and prospered" (Dan. 7:21 & 8:12); also speaking "great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints" (ch. 7:25).

These are just part of the distinctions that should help us understand that the apocalyptic diabolical kings are not to be taken as literally applying to ALL political and civil governments which Scripture clearly says are ordained by God.

sage:

After the destruction of the Harlot (whose identity scares Tayo D ) by the Beasts., Rev 19:15-21describes the destruction of the wild beast, human rulers and their military forces at the hands of God's king then rightful rulership is given back to Christ.

Since the wild beast and its image refer to Human rulership or the human political system, the Dragon grants this wild beast its rulership and authority

The Harlot of Revelation 19 is NOT the CHURCH, and I hope you can mark that distinction quite well.

sage:

This completely harmonizes with other passages of the bible that clearly identify the Devil as the ruler of the world

Luke 4:6, 1st John 5:19, John 14:30,

John 12:31, John 16:11

2nd Corinthians 4:4

This discussion is really more extensive than this. Il come and give a few more postings later in the day before i log out of this discussion

Unfortunately, they do not "harmonize", in as far as you were lumping them all up and unable to distinguish between them. Besides, I've dealt with the verses you gave above to show in what context Scripture speaks of the devil as the god/ruler/prince of this world - and not in even ONE instance is there the remotest idea that the devil is in ULTIMATE CONTROL. May I remind you that even when some might think that Satan is the sole mover of events during the apocalypse, God was still in control of the affairs that would seal their doom:

Revelation 17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

@sage,

sage:

we have been arguing this for a while but let us examine this.

Rev Chap 18 gives a very classical example of the sense in which Caesar is God's Servant

The Seven headed wild beast which recieved its rulership from the devil is also used by God to achieve God's purposes. The Harlot that sits on masses of people, that had formed an unholy alliance with the beast (Human Political rulers), is destroyed by the same Beast she had been in colaboration at the instigation of God. God puts it into the hearts of these rulers to carry out his will even though their rulership power comes from the Devil.

The bible is clear that the wild beast (human rulership) recieves its power and authority from the Devil but God has ultimate power and even though the wild beast is under the direct control and influence of Satan, God can still use human rulers to achieve his purposes. It is within his power to do so.

Let's not jumble issues here. My premiss has been that God "gives" human rulership to whomsoever He wishes; and the devil does NOT have that jurisdiction, even though he may instigate, influence or manipulate evil in governance.

Second, that the beasts receive their powers from Satan does not presuppose that he is in ULTIMATE CONTROL over world affairs; for we have seen by many references that God ALONE has that prerogative, even as you now concede to in the highlighted words above.

Third, the rebellious system of the world will be divinely judged by God Himself on the day of reckoning.

Fourth, of those civil and political governments which God Himself has appointed (Rom. 13:1), Christians are to OBEY, RESPECT and PRAY for them.

Fifth, we cannot confuse the apocalyptic beasts for present civil and political governments instituted by God.

sage:

The fact that God uses the beast to accomplish his will still did not mean that the wild beast was not to be destroyd.

Granted.

sage:

God turns around and destroys this wild beast (Human Rulers) and everything associated with human rulership, including their military[/color]

It does not therefore mean the notion that "Christians have a battle against world leaders", (as you stated earlier on); for that would hugely contradict our spelt-out responsibility towards the governments appointed or ordained by God.

@sage,

sage:


What do you mean by that . Did you read those scriptures at all

Stimulus has been asking for an example of where the devil gives rulership to human rulers. He kept asking the question as if it would negate what the scriptures has promised is in store for Human Rulership and all those that partake of it and their military forces. He keeps asking those questions like it would nulify the example Jesus and his apostles set for any true christians with regards to wordly political affairs.

I kept asking the same question to help point you back to the fact that Scripture shows us the example of the Lord Jesus and the apostles was for us to OBEY, RESPECT and PRAY for political leaders and governments appointed/instituted by God. To suggest that those civil and political governments have been ordained by the devil is a huge fallacy.

sage:

The bible identifies the wild beast with seven heads and ten horns as human rulers. It is interesting to note that the image of the wild beast given rulership by the Devil is formed by Men who now pledge their alligiance to it.

The beasts of the apocalypse are not to be misconstrued for the civil governments God has ordained and asked us to PRAY FOR, OBEY and RESPECT.

sage:

The way the Angel identified the wild beast as human rulership is uncomfortable to the vast majority of those on earth but so is Truth in general.

Which is like admitting to the uncomfortable feeling elicited by those who can't see the difference between the beasts of the apocalypse from the civil governments spoken of in Rom. 13:1-4.

sage:

I want him to reply to this and then il post my last postings and lay my case to rest.

There for now - as above. Cheers.

sage:

@Stimulus no problems. We are all busy from time to time.

Meanwhile i did not misconstrue anything. The bible revealed the identity of the wild beast that recieves rulership from the devil in the book of Revelation as rulers, the same way it did for Daniel. Go through those scriptures that i posted. It wont be hard for any good bible student to have identified who the beasts were referring to even before the angel clearly identified it. The similarities to the beasts of Daniel are just too striking to miss.

Its also interesting to know that humans made an image of this beast and it begins active rulership over humans and humans now pledge their allegiance to it.

It would be in the good interest of any good Bible student to clearly distinguish between issues here: (a) civil authorities ORDAINED and APOOINTED by God for our OBEDIENCE, RESPECT and PRAYERS - Rom. 13:1-4; 1 Tim. 2:1-2 and 1 Pet. 2:13-14; and (b) governments led by diaobolically influenced rulers in the apocalypse as in the Revelation and Daniel.

sage:

Il come back and discuss Romans 13:1-4. In fact Romans 13:1-4 was written by a politically neutral apostle to a politically neutral Christian congregatin in Rome. Those First Century Christians clearly understood that their Christian calling left no room for any sort of participation in the wordly political system. BUT THEY ALSO CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT OBEYING CAESARS COMMANDS WHICH DO NOT CONFLICT WITH CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES WAS A CHRISTIAN OBLIGATION. CHRISTIANS WERE NOT TO TO TRY TO SUBVERT THE STATE IN ANYWAY. But Neither that nor the book of Daniel in anyway condone true Christians participation in the political affairs of the world.

True neutrality does not remotely suggest that that Christians PRAY for leaders in civil and political governments. Go back and read Daniel and see that he was actively employed in political office in Babylon (Dan. 8:27 - "afterward I rose up, and did the king's business"; so the reasoning to see "neutrality" in those Scriptures is weak.

OBEDIENCE, RESPECT and PRAYER are not words of NEUTRALITY!! These are active words Christians exercise towards the political and civil governments APPOINTED by God (Rom. 13:1-4); but they are NOT the same things we express towards the beastly rebellious governments of the apocalypse who give themselves to blaspheming God and waging a war against the saints.

sage:

Il give my final thoughts and also put an end to my side of this discussion. I believe i have done this topic justice. Everybody has his choices 2 make in life

I concur.

@sage,

sage:

i wanted to answer your question in due time. I really wanted you to see that in the light of bible promises and God's divine plan, the human political system has no future and is not where a true Christian should be found.

What many people typically do is to take a default position even before they examine God's word. That is why they mix up issues in the Bible; and then without conviction try to pass their ideas to others. That is one thing I try to avoid; which is why I often challenge the ideas being put forward by others, especially where those ideas do not seem to have Scriptural foundation.

In the same way, you might agree come to the understanding that Scripture does not teach that the devil GIVES human rulership to whomsoever he wishes. If that were the case, he would have done it in the past countless times; we would have clearly read of it in God's Word as is stated about God who does that; and then, we can't miss how the Bible clearly delineates that the ultimate rebellion of Satan is during the apocalypse.

sage:

Whatever my answer to that singular question was and still is not going to change God's plan to end human rulership. I was amazed at the way you kept pounding on it as the answer to that question would nullify all what the bible had said.

But i was going to answer you that question regardless.

My challenge was offered for the simple reason that you were using a faulty premiss to launch into unbiblical ideas. You may be concerned about my reservations on other issues - and that was due to the fact that they were outside the purview of my concerns; nor did I rigorously attempt to deny that wicked and rebellious governance will come to an end by divine judgement. Recall again that to this end I offered Isaiah 13:11 - 'And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.'

Once we understand WHO is in ULTIMATE CONTROL, then the tendency to lump up ALL civil and political governments as diabolical will be minimized.

Cheers.

stimulus:

@sage,

Interesting. However, you clearly missed the issues presented in these texts as relating to the core question that has brought us up until this point. I'd like you to see that these are dealing with the apocalypse of the endtime when Satan gathers the rulers of the world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty at Armegeddon (Rev. 16:14, 16). Infact, when reading Daniel's prophecy, note that the events described in chapters 7 & 8 were said to have reference to the endtimes:

Dan. 8:17, 19, 26; 10:14
"So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. . . And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. . . And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. . .Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Again and again, Daniel was told that the vision did not apply to his time and day; nor are we to take it to mean that we are already in the day of the Armageddon. There are a few things you should see in this connection:

(a) the time of these beastly kings - "at the time of the end shall be the vision" (ch. 8:17)

(b) the nature of their ascension to power -
"four great beasts came up from the sea. . . four kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (ch. 7:3 & 17)

(c) the operation and [/b]character[/b] of their power -
"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them . . .
and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered" (ch. 7:21 & 8:12)
"he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws" (ch. 7:25).

(d) the diabolical source of their powers -
"his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power" (Dan. 8:24)
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast" (Rev. 13:4).

The basic reason why I delineated these issues is so we do not mistake the apocalyptic visions of the endtime for that which God in His grace at the present time offers to the nations in terms of civil governments which HE ALONE appoints (Rom. 13:1). When dealing with the ultimate rebellion instigated by Satan, we should not confuse issues and lump them up as applying to EVERY political government in the world presently. The following reasons are why I'm persuaded that there is a distinction between them:

(a) In EVERY government appointed by God (Rom. 13:1), Christians are actively to RESPECT, OBEY, and PRAY for them (1 Tim. 2:1-2; 1 Pet. 2:13-14). Whereas, in the beastly kings of the apocalypse, we are not urged to show the same deference to them.

(b) The civil and political governments appointed by God bear the following features: they are "sent by Him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well" (1 Pet. 2:14); also, these "rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. . .he is the minister of God to thee for good . .a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil (Rom. 13:3-4). Whereas, the apocalyptic beastly rulers are the direct opposite, such that they "cast down the truth to the ground; and practised, and prospered" (Dan. 7:21 & 8:12); also speaking "great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints" (ch. 7:25).

These are just part of the distinctions that should help us understand that the apocalyptic diabolical kings are not to be taken as literally applying to ALL political and civil governments which Scripture clearly says are ordained by God.

The Harlot of Revelation 19 is NOT the CHURCH, and I hope you can mark that distinction quite well.

Unfortunately, they do not "harmonize", in as far as you were lumping them all up and unable to distinguish between them. Besides, I've dealt with the verses you gave above to show in what context Scripture speaks of the devil as the god/ruler/prince of this world - and not in even ONE instance is there the remotest idea that the devil is in ULTIMATE CONTROL. May I remind you that even when some might think that Satan is the sole mover of events during the apocalypse, God was still in control of the affairs that would seal their doom:

Revelation 17:17
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Non of those verses you quoted in anyway support the idea that the present political system of the world or any rulers power comes from God. That the bible says that It is to whom God wants that he gives power (does not mean that human goverments are in line with his will and Romans reminds Christians of their obligation to obey goverments)

Neither of the two passages nor any of the other passages gives the slightest excuse for Christians to participate in wordly politics.

Besides you said that the beasts refer to the end times? How then did The beasts of Daniel chapter 8 turn out to be Alexander, his empire and the Persian empire?. Why would the angel in Revelation refer to the the Seven headed wild beast as rulers who rule over mankind?

@sage,

sage:

Non of those verses you quoted in anyway support the idea that the present political system of the world or any rulers power comes from God.

It is not so amazing that you'd come back knotting yourself in the issues delineated clearly in my rejoinder. If you cannot humbly acknowledge the obvious declaration of Rom. 13:1 and other numerous akin verses, then you will continue to find a huge difficulty acknowledging that God ALONE is the One who APPOINTS, ORDAINS, SETS UP, or ESTABLISHES human rulership; and the devil is NOWHERE said to have that jurisdcition. Please read ROMANS 13:1 again - "For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." You would only make sense if you could find me the verse that says "the powers that be are ordained of the devil!"

sage:

That the bible says that It is to whom God wants that he gives power (does not mean that human goverments are in line with his will and Romans reminds Christians of their obligation to obey goverments)

It is really hilarious to suppose that God would ask us to OBEY, RESPECT and PRAY for governments that are not in line with His will. If Christians would for one minute suppose that Rom. 13:1 are outside the will of God, then it is no wonder that so many of us are failing in our spiritual responsibility to obey God's Word as simply stated.

sage:

Neither of the two passages nor any of the other passages gives the slightest excuse for Christians to participate in wordly politics.

I can understand how difficult it is for you to let your default assumptions be settled by the Word of God. Go read about the lives of godly servants of the LORD who were employed in political offices, and then come back condemning them as those who will be destroyed in divine rage!

sage:

Besides you said that the beasts refer to the end times? How then did The beasts of Daniel chapter 8 turn out to be Alexander, his empire and the Persian empire?. Why would the angel in Revelation refer to the the Seven headed wild beast as rulers who rule over mankind?

Please calm down and let Scripture speak to your heart. How is it that Daniel was severally told that the vision did NOT apply to his time and day? More so, the angel that gave him understanding repeatedly asserted that "at the time of the end shall be the vision" (Dan. 8:17)?? Do the seven headed beast tessellate with what you read in Rom. 13:1; or would you describe the present time as already the Armageddon??

The problem with your type of reasoning is that it is unable to clearly delineate and distinguish between issues that speak of the apocalypse, and those which speak of what God is doing in the CHURCH age. That is why it does not surprise me that you constantly misconstrue THE CHURCH for the HARLOT!!

Besides in what sense did Jesus say that we should pray for human rulers?
Give the scripture and let us examine it,

Note that Jesus asked us to PRAY for our enemies and those who wish us bad but does that now imply participation with them? Besides Jesus and the first century apostles and disciples also OBEYED and RESPECTED the rule of law of his day and PRAYED for their enemies, even the rulers of the Land, but THEY WERE STILL POLITICALLY NEUTRAL.

Lets put this into context though using an example.

When Satan wanted to try Job, he went to God and told him what he wanted to do. God said that he could go on and do whatever he wanted except for killing Job. The fact that God told him he could go ahead with his plan did it now mean that God approved of the Devil, his plans, his ways nor his deeds? That he told the Devil he could carry on with his plan does that in any way suggest that God would want any of his faithful servants to participate in it? Did God really approve of the Devil and his plans even though the plan went ahead with God's say so?

God okayed the Devils plan to try Job. He gave the Devil the go-ahead. (The authority with which the devil tries Job could be said to have been ordained or granted from above, the same as the authority with which Pilate killed Jesus) At the same time the bible says that God does not try people with evil things. That God says ok go and do this does not necessarily mean it is according to his will nor does it mean it has his Actual approval nor does it mean that he wants his true servants to participate or be involved in that same thing that he said it is ok for the Devil to go ahead and do. (It only means that those things happened only because God gives them full permission and allows for them to happen) That he gave the Devil an OK does not mean that he will not destroy the devil at the end of the day.

Human rulerships have God's ok to go ahead and do what they want in exercising rulership. It can be said in that sense that their rulership is granted from God. But that does not in anyway mean they are really in harmony with his will, nor does it mean that they will not in the same manner be destroyed by God.

And you said in every goverment that God appoints Christians are supposed to ,

If i might ask which one is the Govt that God appoints and which one does he not appoint

And How come when the bible talks about the destruction of Human rulers it talks about all of them?


Besides if the national rulers really had God's approval, why would he destroy them?


Il come back and Clarify you on the issue of the beasts and what they represent. I told you the discussion was actually more extensive than what i posted


AND YES THE CHURCH IS PART OF THE HARLOT (THOUGH NOT ALL OF THE HARLOT). Im feeling lazy now. Its almost 5am here.

Il come back and address this issues

@sage,

sage:

Besides in what sense did Jesus say that we should pray for human rulers?
Give the scripture and let us examine it,

1 Tim. 2:1-4
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

sage:

Note that Jesus asked us to PRAY for our enemies and those who wish us bad but does that now imply participation with them? Besides Jesus and the first century apostles and disciples also OBEYED and RESPECTED the rule of law of his day and PRAYED for their enemies, even the rulers of the Land, but THEY WERE STILL POLITICALLY NEUTRAL.

To be politically neutral requires CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!! You do NOT obey any government to which you are "neutral!" To RESPECT, PRAY FOR and OBEY the diabolical beastly rulers are NOT the responsibility to which Christians are called; rather, we are called to do those things ACTIVELY to governments ORDAINED by God - Rom. 13:1.

sage:

Lets put this into context though using an example.

When Satan wanted to try Job, he went to God and told him what he wanted to do. God said that he could go on and do whatever he wanted except for killing Job. The fact that God told him he could go ahead with his plan did it now mean that God approved of the Devil, his plans, his ways nor his deeds? That he told the Devil he could carry on with his plan does that in any way suggest that God would want any of his faithful servants to participate in it? Did God really approve of the Devil and his plans even though the plan went ahead with God's say so?

God okayed the Devils plan to try Job. He gave the Devil the go-ahead. (The authority with which the devil tries Job could be said to have been ordained or granted from above, the same as the authority with which Pilate killed Jesus) At the same time the bible says that God does not try people with evil things. That God says ok go and do this does not necessarily mean it is according to his will nor does it mean it has his Actual approval nor does it mean that he wants his true servants to participate or be involved in that same thing that he said it is ok for the Devil to go ahead and do. (It only means that those things happened only because God gives them full permission and allows for them to happen) That he gave the Devil an OK does not mean that he will not destroy the devil at the end of the day

I don't think the Bible says that "God does not try people with evil things." I may agree with you if you meant rather to quote James 1:13 - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." In which case, Job was put to the test in the divine economy of God's will (James 5:11).

While I appreciate your offer to illustrate your point, there are a few problems with your analogy. For one, it does not clearly bring out the fact of God "appointing" or "ordaining" civil and political governments. The devil has often sought to try godly people or those favoured by God - as he did in Luke 22:31-32 when he asked to sift Peter as wheat! Satan's request to try Job is not the same thing as God's ordaining civil governments and our Christian responsibility to OBEY, RESPECT and PRAY FOR kings and all those in authority. NOWHERE did Job or any other godly character OBEY, RESPECT, or PRAY FOR the devil!! So, unfortunately the illustration is a weak application to the present discourse.

Second, you still have issues with seeing God severally declared in Scripture as the One who GIVES human rulership to whomsoever He wishes. This is not a passive roundabout dribbling with passive words like "permission" and "allow" - please read the references and let the Word of God speak to your heart.

sage:

Human rulerships have God's ok to go ahead and do what they want in exercising rulership. It can be said in that sense that their rulership is granted from God. But that does not in anyway mean they are really in harmony with his will, nor does it mean that they will not in the same manner be destroyed by God.

This all sounds like making God some passive being who is unable to do anything than merely "permitting", "allowing" or "okay-ing" something that someone else does! The Bible clearly says that He ORDAINED, APPOINTED, GIVES, ESTABLISHED, and SET UP those government.

I have also offered Isaiah 13:11 to show that evil governments shall be judged - "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible."

sage:

And you said in every goverment that God appoints Christians are supposed to ,

If i might ask which one is the Govt that God appoints and which one does he not appoint

And How come when the bible talks about the destruction of Human rulers it talks about all of them?


Besides if the national rulers really had God's approval, why would he destroy them?

@sage, please patiently go through my rejoinders and see the difference between them. Your problem is going to remain perennially as long as you keep lumping them up from your default position without carefully examining God's Word on the issue.

sage:

Il come back and Clarify you on the issue of the beasts and what they represent. I told you the discussion was actually more extensive than what i posted


AND YES THE CHURCH IS PART OF THE HARLOT (THOUGH NOT ALL OF THE HARLOT). I'm feeling lazy now. Its almost 5am here.

Il come back and address this issues

I'll be waiting to see how THE CHURCH is interpreted as THE HARLOT/LovePeddler! It may take a while for me to reply your your extensive posts; but I'll do my best as time permits (we're getting really busy as we leave the winter behind! yipee!!! )

Cheers.

Yeah guy im still a lil busy. I just logged in here 4 a few mins. Il find time in this coming week to respond to your posts.

But we will need to finish with the politics thread b/4 we can step into defining the LovePeddler . Its all connected sha

And il like you to note that Neutrality in no way means disobidience. It will be self deceptive to think that. The first century Christians were neutral, but not disobidient unless it conflicted with God's command. Neutrality with regards to politics simply involves non participation in politics, the same way the first century christians.

And analyzing the text you quoted

1 Tim. 2:1-4
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

The same prayer for rulers is also to be extended to all men (regardless of what they do)

The point of the prayer is to "have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

How does this, nor Romans Chap 13:1 support Christian Participation in politics?

I used the example of Job and Pilate to show you that just because the bible says God grants authority, does not mean he approves of his true servants participating in it.

He granted or gave the devil the authority to try Job but that does not mean he would want any of his true servants to participate in such a plan (even though he granted the authority for the plan to go ahead)

He granted or gave Pilate the authority to execute Jesus but that did not mean in anyway that we would approve of his true worshipers participating in that process that He (God) gave the go ahead on.

I want you to answer these following questions with a yes or no answer (Honestly)

1 Where Jesus and his disciples involved in the political process of their day (rulership)?

2 Where they disobidient to the rulers in the regular laws (laws that did not conflict with God's instructions)?

Its clear that neutrality from politics in no way means disobidience to civil laws.

Besides the will of the nations are not in harmony with he will of God and his son Jesus. Ask me and il tell you why.

Il come back though and clarify you on the issue of the beasts and who they represent. There is no doubt on that issue

Besides where is TV01

@sage,

Thanks for your replies. Will do 'em answers before midweek when I'm less occupied.

Cheerio.

Christianity is the broad term applied to the doctrines and values which its adherents claim to have originated from pagan sources, and which have been propagated ever since it was first organized in the year 300 AD in Rome. It has always been a great influence on the lives of millions of people all over the world.
Politics as defined in Webster’s New World Dictionary as: factional scheming within a group.What, you may ask, does politics have to do with Christianity? If you closely examine its history and heroes, you will find facts saying that this fabricated religion is nothing but politics. It has been the vehicle that enables the evil one (Azazl) to pursue and reach his political aims. The proof is that everywhere the doctrine of Christianity has been propagated, its recipients became the subjects of that nation which sponsored the teachers. From that point onward, every facet of their lives was governed by and according to the whims of that nation.

@Horus,

Aye, we hear. And for all of that, what has your "black jesus" done for YOU?

[color=#990000][/color][/b][b] WHERE IS TV01? MY GUY  HAS BEEN MISSING IN ACTION. I THOUGHT THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT HE WOULD COME BACK INTO THIS DEBATE. He brought me into this topic and left

WHERE IS TV01? MY GUY HAS BEEN MISSING IN ACTION. I THOUGHT THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT HE WOULD COME BACK INTO THIS DEBATE. He brought me into this topic and left

Hi Sage, I'm here, just holding my peace for the most part. Hope all is well with you. Fight the good fight, but avoid needless and time wasting disputes. God bless.

TV01:

Hi Sage, I'm here, just holding my peace for the most part. Hope all is well with you. Fight the good fight, but avoid needless and time wasting disputes. God bless.

. . . . . . Chei Nairaland Users no go kill me oh! You started this idealogy now you have a scripture you are using to run away!

mrpataki:


. . . . . . Chei Nairaland Users no go kill me oh! You started this idealogy now you have a scripture you are using to run away!

Run? Me? Au contraire mon frere!

I know my position on this topic and have clearly stated it. No one has by dint of scripture been able to persuade me otherwise. Indeed, take a poll of all Xtian contributors to this discussion and see who has changed or even moderated their stance as a result of our dialogue. Then kindly reconsider what you posted above.

Topic aside Pataks, how are you sir?

God bless

TV01:

Run? Me? Au contraire mon frere!

I know my position on this topic and have clearly stated it. No one has by dint of scripture been able to persuade me otherwise. Indeed, take a poll of all Christian contributors to this discussion and see who has changed or even moderated their stance as a result of our dialogue. Then kindly reconsider what you posted above.

Topic aside Pataks, how are you sir?

God bless

Parlez vous francais?

My Brother am very fine and always remain blessed! Nice to read from you once again. Are you in London? Should be in London sometime soon

Maybe we might have a bible verse serving lambaste

God Bless Bro.

Parlez vous francais?

Vous aussi vous parlez francais??C'est tres bien

mrpataki:

Parlez vous francais?

Non!

mrpataki:

My Brother am very fine and always remain blessed! Nice to read from you once again. Are you in London? Should be in London sometime soon

Please sir, bring me roasted groundnut!

mrpataki:

Maybe we might have a bible verse serving lambaste

I'm not sure I understand you exactly?

God Bless Bro.

Likewise sir, likewise.

Horus:

Vous aussi vous parlez francais??C'est tres bien

Merci mon ami! Au revoir.

I dont think there is anything wrong in Christians being in politics

the most important thing is, what is their motive of going their? Is it God that is

The children of God are suppose to be on the ruling side

@TV01

I initially didnt want to get involved in this debate. I knew it would be time consuming and friutless and i didnot have much time to keep up with such a pointless debate for a long time. Some things are really clear it does not need blind argument so i gave up on it. The topic in itself is self explanatory. True Christians are those who follow the example and the instructions of Christ. So if Christ and the early Christians advoided the political and military realms of this world and Christ instructed that his true followers cannot have any part in such but have a primary commision to laud his kingdom, his true followers in the world have an obligation to do the same. Anybody that does otherwise really needs to re-examine themselves as to their professing to be christians. There really is no if, buts or maybe's in it. It is as clear as daylight

@Sage,

I initially didnt want to get involved in this debate. I knew it would be time consuming and friutless and i didnot have much time to keep up with such a pointless debate for a long time. Some things are really clear it does not need blind argument so i gave up on it. The topic in itself is self explanatory. True Christians are those who follow the example and the instructions of Christ. So if Christ and the early Christians advoided the political and military realms of this world and Christ instructed that his true followers cannot have any part in such but have a primary commision to laud his kingdom, his true followers in the world have an obligation to do the same. Anybody that does otherwise really needs to re-examine themselves as to their professing to be christians. There really is no if, buts or maybe's in it. It is as clear as daylight

I assume this is your parting shot on this topic. let me give you mine: 1 Corinthians 3: 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. If by any shred of the imagination you exclude "politics" as a subset of the superset "ALL", may I then remind you of 1 Corinthians 7: 31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

And may I draw your attention to the tendency to dismiss anyone as unchristian who is not of your persuasion. Let the following scripture be your guiding principle when you differ with other believers as to the manner with which they are persuaded to use the world or otherwise: Romans 14: 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. SELAH!!!

@Tayo D

Before i leave might i ask how those scriptures you quoted negates the example of Jesus and his apostles or the early christians and the instructions that he left for anybody who truely wants to follow him?

So you think quoting those scriptures means all things in the world are now for christians and it is what I say is unclean is what is unclean to a christian

Did you not also see that the apostle Paul whom you are quoting followed the example of his master in non-involvement in the political and military affairs of his day but rather soke and taught about the ONLY KINGDOM THAT GOD APPROVES ie of his son Jesus Christ, just as his master did

Actually il try and find time to leave my final thoughts on this topic