₦airaland Forum

stimulus:
Okay, thanks.

You're welcome ! Okay sorry .

stimulus:
Did so earlier.

When? where??

stimulus:
If there's no difference, why the argument in the first place?

The thread title and poser ~ Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?

Was to determine if NT Christians were meant to tithe or not? If so on what basis. Meant reviewing it in context, OT & NT, types, shadows, symbolism and practicality.

So my summary would be; no mandatory tithe, voluntary tithing fine, but as in essence it's no different to giving, it's an individual thing. Brethren, enjoy your liberty.

Whats yours?

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
The thread title and poser ~ Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?

Was to determine if NT Christians were meant to tithe or not? If so on what basis. Meant reviewing it in context, OT & NT, types, shadows, symbolism and practicality.

I know what the topic says; but it would seem to me that the very thing I have asked that you attempt is now unwittingly being offered in the second line:

TV01:
So my summary would be; no mandatory tithe, voluntary tithing fine, but as in essence it's no different to giving, it's an individual thing. Brethren, enjoy your liberty.

Let me simply ask this:

Since the topic is "To Tithe or Not to Tithe", by admitting that voluntary tithing is fine
and it's no different to giving, are you not agreeing that Christians can indeed tithe?

The one thing you have said here is this: "YES, Christians can tithe - and its fine; because voluntary tithing is the same as giving!!

TV01, I no fit laugh!!



Bros, pay your TITHE (aka voluntary tithe. . . aka giving). Just do the one you want to do - label as you please, eh? Enjoy!!

@ Stimulus,

On a serious note, this had to be properly expounded because of the bondage inherent in proclaiming;

1. Mandatory tithing with a curse for non-compliance
2. Voluntary tithing with blessings for adherence

Furthermore, tithe is generally taught as in #1. So that had to be debunked. It could easily morph in to #2, so that had to be clarified.

To me they are the flip side of the same coin. It may be subtle in #2, but the coercion and bondage are still there. Can you not see how people would feel obliged to tithe on either basis?

Clearly tithing as a notion (and on whatever basis) has been subsumed into the Christian grace of giving.

But like I have said time and again, if anyone want to pay a tithe (or any fixed amount) as an individual response, fine. If it helps one understand and articulate giving again fine (although I must say I'd see it at best as a youthful Christian mindset). To me it's needless, but I won't make an issue of it on the basis of Christian liberty.

You still haven't made your position clear  !

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
Clearly tithing as a notion (and on whatever basis) has been subsumed into the Christian grace of giving.

Okay, I hear. Do I tithe? Yes, I do. No shakings from my rejoinder above.

@ Stimulus,

Okay, I hear. Do I tithe? Yes, I do. No shakings from my rejoinder above.

To all intents and purposes, I feel the doctrinal aspects of this discussion have been nailed. However, I would like to ask you some questions.

1. Do you believe tithing affords you blessings not accrued to one who simply gives, be that less, the same or more than you?

2. Additionally, do you think it denotes greater maturity or a closer walk with the Lord?

3. If you answer yes to any of the above 2 questions, please explain how you understand God as distinguishing between tithing and giving? If indeed they are both voluntary


I'd like to move on to the pratical application and use of the tithe and possibly the whole use of money in NT Christianity, if of course anyone cares to discuss.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

To the above questions, I offered you a few texts to consider earlier on (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.928.html#msg1256815)

I believe if you carefully examine your concerns from Scripture, the case would be settled.

Hello,
Thank God a lot of pple in the house understand what tithing is. The bible commands it, so to me, my answer is a big YES. I believe in tithing and I pay my tithes.

Let's not bother ourselves with how the money is spent, the most important thing is it is in God's word. Salvation is personal, so just be obedient to God's word by paying ur tithes and forget about how it's been spent.

I tell u, there are a lot of blessings attached to paying tithes, why don't we all key into these?

If u care to know, it's either that 10% goes to God or to the enemy (how by way of devourers). The bible says, "He will rebuke the devourers for your sake" (Mal 3). Devourers come in divers ways e.g sicknesses, losses, family problems, irrelevant issues that ur money will just be going into and so on.

So why don't u give this 10% to God and as well enjoy the numerous blessings attached to Tithing?

Pay wetin??

That is just another means for the church to be taxing their congregation. Pay tithe so that the pastor can buy big cars and put customized license plates on them abi? Then send all his kids abroad, and be vacationing in the Caribbeans with his family. Then he will build a big ass University that 80% of his congregation (that contributed the money) cannot afford to send their kids to. Or maybe he builds a big ass shopping mall that the church members cannot afford to shop in. Or so that the pastor can be wearing a different clothes to church every sunday abi. (gianni versace suits, Emporio armani shoes, louis vuitton bag for his wife, baby phat on his daughter, ray ban sunglasses (for his bodyguards), Salvatore ferragamo perfumes, timberland kicks on his son, e.t.c). Then the pastor will start talking bout buying his own jet by the end of the following year.

Omo dont pay jack to no church. instead buy ceiling fans for the church, or buy food stuffs for the widows, or pay the school fees of the less privileged in the church but dont give those pastors your money.

Okay, my bros TV01, here is another example of what I've been trying to say:

REZIGIRL:
Thank God a lot of people in the house understand what tithing is. The bible commands it, so to me, my answer is a big YES. - - -

So why don't u give this 10% to God and as well enjoy the numerous blessings attached to Tithing?

That's just why I am persuaded that many people have their own persuasions on this matter: many seeing it as a "command" (and all akin ideas thereto); and even more to that, some limit it to just 10%. No wahala - we are all learning.

Et moi? Well, yes I tithe - I do so. But then, I don't see it as a command (or I should say, I've not come to the persuasion that it is a command even though I'm persuaded to tithe).

Second thing though, is that I also believe as does REZIGIRL that some blessings are attached to tithing - that's why I offered that short response earlier to link you to another one given earlier.

But here is a little example of what I was trying to share with you that it is not the first think that should always control our thoughts on tithing:

Esss:
Pay wetin??

That is just another means for the church to be taxing their congregation. Pay tithe so that the pastor can buy big cars and put customized license plates on them abi?- - -

Omo don't pay jack to no church. . . .

Biblically, TV01, you can see why I don't really think this is the way this discussion should be ajudged. Infact, if those were the reasons for giving or not, I would really NOT even give any other type of financial giving/offering.

I'm only just trying to offer you examples of why I didn't want to discuss this subject along the lines of the reasons above. I'm more concerned with what exactly we can learn from God's Word on any type of GIVING at all.


Yes, I believe in tithing - and I've been enjoying God's blessings thereto. But my persuasions are somewhat different from the idea that it is a command or that I should not give anything in church for fear of what any pastor does with my offering. God bless all.

Regards.

stimulus:
That's just why I am persuaded that many people have their own persuasions on this matter: many seeing it as a "command"

In many instances, the persuasions of many are determined by the preaching of a few!

stimulus:
Et moi? Well, yes I tithe - I do so. But then, I don't see it as a command (or I should say, I've not come to the persuasion that it is a command even though I'm persuaded to tithe).

Command or not. Seems you are not sure?

stimulus:
Second thing though, is that I also believe as does REZIGIRL that some blessings are attached to tithing - that's why I offered that short response earlier to link you to another one given earlier.

Please explain what blessings are attached to tithing/tithers, that are not accrued to giving/givers? Please show a clear distinction between them. Do said distinctions hold if the givers give less, the same or more? Anyone.

stimulus:
Biblically, TV01, you can see why I don't really think this is the way this discussion should be ajudged. Infact, if those were the reasons for giving or not, I would really NOT even give any other type of financial giving/offering.

I'm only just trying to offer you examples of why I didn't want to discuss this subject along the lines of the reasons above. I'm more concerned with what exactly we can learn from God's Word on any type of GIVING at all.Regards.

I agree that doctrinally, the use of offerings is not the starting point, but the how, when and why. However, the discussion would not be complete if we did not go on to discuss how tithe offering, giving or money in it's totality was to be used in the Christian living. Regardless of peoples prejudices or experience.

stimulus:
Yes, I believe in tithing - and I've been enjoying God's blessings thereto. But my persuasions are somewhat different from the idea that it is a command or that I should not give anything in church for fear of what any pastor does with my offering. God bless all.

Your belief is not supported by scripture and your testimony is at best anecdotal. This is not a discussion about giving, as you clearly distinguish tithing from giving.

If you agree that any notion of tithing  on whatever basis has been subsumed into the Christian grace of giving, then the whole discussion is mute. As long as you insist there is tithing distinct from giving, with benefits accrued thereto, you should be able to explain and expand on that position scripturally. As yet, no one has done so.

If some of us give by grace freely from the heart and are missing blessings from tithing, why would you for loves sake not enlighten us? If it's by grace we should avail ourselves and if it's by command, we should obey.

You claim to not be persuaded that tithing is a command, but persuaded to do so. Please explain why? It suggests your position to be one taken out of doubt or fear.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
In many instances, the persuasions of many are determined by the preaching of a few!

I had no interest in prolonged wild debates - and that's why i stated my persuasions early enough.

TV01:
Command or not. Seems you are not sure?

Please go back and read my SEVERAL rejoinders and try not pretending to make them what they are not.

TV01:
Please explain what blessings are attached to tithing/tithers, that are not accrued to giving/givers? Please show a clear distinction between them. Do said distinctions hold if the givers give less, the same or more? Anyone.

There we go again. Why has it been difficult for you to offer explanations of the verses I offered?

TV01:
I agree that doctrinally, the use of offerings is not the starting point, but the how, when and why. However, the discussion would not be complete if we did not go on to discuss how tithe offering, giving or money in it's totality was to be used in the Christian living. Regardless of peoples prejudices or experience.

I agree we should have discussed the many concerns on this topic, rather than narrowing it to the simplistic question of "Tithe or NOT?" Each time I thought we should do that, again and again both you and Hnd-holder would flag your yellow cards with "The Topic is: To Tithe or Not to Tithe?"

In that respect, I simply offered the terse answers leading up to your admitting the obvious - 'YES, Christians can tithe (other than trying to label it as "voluntary tithing".'

TV01:
Your belief is not supported by scripture and your testimony is at best anecdotal. This is not a discussion about giving, as you clearly distinguish tithing from giving.

Well, I noticed you were in the habit of evading questions whenever I offered Scripture; and since my sharing with you in that regard was not leading anywhere, what was the point offering you more Scriptures to keep evading?

And besides sir, you made the point at first to query the suggestion for you to outline what you thought tithe really pointed to in the Word; but then again recently came back stating that: "it's no different to giving". So, I really don't know what you're driving at on turning down something and then coming back to ask if we could discuss it again.

TV01:
If you agree that any notion of tithing on whatever basis has been subsumed into the Christian grace of giving, then the whole discussion is mute. As long as you insist there is tithing distinct from giving, with benefits accrued thereto, you should be able to explain and expand on that position scripturally. As yet, no one has done so.

Is that another weak attempt to pretend that you deliberately did not read that at least someone - 4get_me - has attempted to distinguish between the various types of giving sometime earlier? What did you guys do with his beautifil input, other than the same assertions in denial when none of you came back to do what you're asking others to do?

TV01:
If some of us give by grace freely from the heart and are missing blessings from tithing, why would you for loves sake not enlighten us? If it's by grace we should avail ourselves and if it's by command, we should obey.

Several attempts have been made to enlighten you - it is a sad case that you rejected them and are still asking for the same thing. (If na my office you dey talk like this, dem for hold emergency meeting over your case!!)

TV01:
You claim to not be persuaded that tithing is a command, but persuaded to do so. Please explain why? It suggests your position to be one taken out of doubt or fear.

Lol, TV01. . . do you give anything at all? If you do so and it is not by commandment, is it out of fear or doubt - or the attempt to cover up and not sound out of place?

You're not really inviting a discussion; and I'm least interested in a roundabout exercise where you sit to make denials and repeatedly ask the same questions again and again.

Enjoy.

I have followed the discussion between Stimulus on one side and TV01 and Hnd-Holder on the other.

I will like to ask this question: What is the Tithe as it relates to the New Testament Christian. Is it exactly 10% of someones income (or increase)? Which is no different from the tithe paid in the Old Testament. If it is restricted to 10% (or more) doesnt it translate to an obligation? and if the figure is not fixed what separates it from any other voluntary giving?

By the way, I do tithe.

@lafile,

To be honest with you, I will not claim that I know as much as I should on any subject, much less this one. The one thing I do understand at the present is that tithing was commanded under the Law - that much we have agreed upon. Second, tithing does not have to always be interpreted as a commandment/mandatory exercise (I hope we can agree on that as well).

But then, why do I tithe? Is it just 10%? My answer is that my tithing is not restricted to 10% - because I don't believe that even under the Law tithes were merely 10% as such.

So what then? I don't see the issue of tithing as merely a matter of measuring exactly 10%. Rather, I see it as a matter of my committed response in worship to God.  I agree that merely stating it this way and not offering any verses as yet is not the same thing as discussing it. I would like to do so (but as occasion permits me).

As we continue to discuss, however, I'd like someone to please help us understanding the meaning of Hebrews 7:8  -- "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."

I'm not basing everything for my persuasion on that one verse; but I'm asking for inputs to help us understand what it means.

I ENJOY PAYING MY TITHE 'COX I'VE STUDIED IT ,THAT WHEN PAY MY TITHE I RECEIVES GIFT,MONEY E.T.C AND WHEN I REFUSED TO PAY TITHE I ALWAYS REALISE THE WIND OF BLESSING DON'T BLOW THE WAY IT USE TO . ALSO WHEN WE LEARN ACT OF GIVING TO THE POOR .I'M SURE YOU WILL NEVER LACK ANYTHING, I'M NOT A SAINT BUT I'M PRACTISING IT AND IT'S WORKING FOR ME,PLEASE DONT BOTHER ABOUT WHAT THE CHURCH IS USING THE MONEY TO DO, BELIEVE YOU ARE GIVEN IT TO GOD

@ Lafile,

Please don't be upset that Stimulus did not answer your posers. Only he rarely does.

@ Sagacious

I would ask that you share the insights gleaned from your study.

God bless
TV

TV01:
@ Lafile,

Please don't be upset that Stimulus did not answer your posers. Only he rarely does.

Thank you, TV01. If you refuse to see where I've tried to answer your questions, there would be no need for the above. You can do him a good turn in answering them rather than failing to do so yourself.

Cheers.

stimulus:
Thank you, TV01. If you refuse to see where I've tried to answer your questions, there would be no need for the above. You can do him a good turn in answering them rather than failing to do so yourself.

Ok, sorry !

lafile:
I will like to ask this question: What is the Tithe as it relates to the New Testament Christian.

Tithing can be on one of two premises, mandatory or voluntarily

Mandatory
1. There is no scriptural command obliging tithe for new testament Christians.
2. NT Christians simply give. Giving is a grace and part of the Christian life.

Voluntary
1. Is at best an individual thing, and
2. There is nothing in scripture to suggest it will accrue benefits or blessings that are denied those who simply give.

lafile:
and if the figure is not fixed what separates it from any other voluntary giving?

Good question , which has a very simple one word answer ~ Nothing! Any notion of a tithe or any type of law-bound or ritual giving has been subsumed by grace. As I said, Christinas "simply give". Freely and from the heart. True liberty in Christ. Please don't let anyone rob you of that.

Oya Stimulus, please answer Bro Lafile (unequivocally if you will !). Or my answers if you disagree on any point

God bless
TV

Don't allow people to confuse you Tithe is good for you, there are lot of blessing attached to it. It doesn't matter whether it's not in the new testament, what is important is that God said we should pay tithe to him.

omowhyou:
Don't allow people to confuse you Tithe is good for you, there are lot of blessing attached to it.

Namely?

omowhyou:
It doesn't matter whether it's not in the new testament,

Ah, Pastor it's you !

omowhyou:
what is important is that God said we should pay tithe to him.

When, where, how?

Analytical has chided me about vituperations, so I'll chill for now.  Nonsense & Ingreedent  !

@ Stimulus, we are still eagerly awaiting you reply, be that rebuttal, concurrence or deviation.

I have always based my decision to tithe on Luke 11:42 "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

And I though i have seen and heard convincing arguments against tithing, I haven't seen any that tells me Christ said anything that remotely negates it.

I still cant think of any thing that can counter TV01's very impressive arguments but I'ld rather tithe.

Cheers

lafile:
I have always based my decision to tithe on Luke 11:42 "But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

During Jesus' lifetime, the law was still in effect. His whole work of salvation hinged on his totally fulfilling the law while alive. He was addressing a Jew, a Pharisee, who was stilll bound by the law. To tell him to break the law would have practically aborted His whole mission.

What The Lord did, was to go beyond the letter of the law, to show the intent of the law. Indeed, in Christ, there is more, a further stage.

You are niether Jewish, a Pharisee nor bound by the law. Christ has since died, and Allelujah, He is risen. Law-based tithing is one of those things now "taken out of the way", "nailed to the cross". My brother, enjoy your liberty in Christ.

lafile:
but I'ld rather tithe.

And I won't seek to deny you the liberty to do so.

God bless
TV

Patience is a virtue. Indeed, it's a fruit of the Spirit and evidence of sacrificial love.

Just to let you know that i'm eagerly waiting .

@TV01,

Lol. . I'm here again. Let me ask a few questions to begin with, please oblige me:

TV01:
Tithing can be on one of two premises, mandatory or voluntarily

Mandatory
1. There is no scriptural command obliging tithe for new testament Christians.
2. NT Christians simply give. Giving is a grace and part of the Christian life.

Voluntary
1. Is at best an individual thing, and
2. There is nothing in scripture to suggest it will accrue benefits or blessings that are denied those who simply give.

1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?

2. Are there any blessings at all enunciated in the Bible for "giving" (tithes or whatever other type)?

Regards.

@All (tithers and non-tithers),

Could anyone try to share on Hebrews 7:8 - "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."

pilgrim.1:
1. Is there any scriptural command obliging any kind of giving at all in the NT?

Matthew 5:42
Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Matthew 25:37
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?

Mark 10:21
Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."

Luke 3:11
He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

Luke 6:30
Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

Luke 11:41
But rather give alms of such things as you have; then indeed all things are clean to you

Luke 12:33
Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys

Acts 20:35
I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.' "

2 Corinthians 9:7
So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver

Ephesians 4:28
Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need

1 Timothy 6:18
Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share,

Anyone looking for a an amount attached to the outline for giving is probably missing the understanding of grace and maturity. Flip side of that coin would be to be somewhat legally minded in approach to NT Christian living.

Hope that obliges !

God bless
TV

pilgrim.1:
2. Are there any blessings at all enunciated in the Bible for "giving" (tithes or whatever other type)?

Firstly, please note, that I am not delineating giving, or ascribing income streams to generosity, or quantifying earthly returns for sacrificial behaviour, nor being mystical about  a "tithe" or anything else. Just talking about "giving" in response to a need (mainly) or to bless.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."

Philippians 4:15
Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent aid once and again for my necessities. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account. 18 Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God. 19 And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

I'm sure there are more examples, but that is just the gist of my thoughts. Giving engenders blessings both here and in the hereafter. But there is nothing to suggest that there is a direct formula or law commanding specific returns in this age.

God bless
TV

pilgrim.1:
Could anyone try to share on Hebrews 7:8 - "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth."

Read thus (in context);

And here (i.e under the law in Israel which still existed at the time of writing Hebrews) men (mortal  priests appointed under the Old Covenant) that die (neccessitating a new appointment) receive tithes (from those who are under the law of Moses); but there (In the Genesis 14 account 2000 years prior, during the time of Abraham) he (Melchizedek) receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Again, the whole thrust of the tithing reference is to show that the Melchizedek High Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic/Levitical type. Levi via Abraham paid tithes to a superior type. Melchizedek was King & Priest (Leviters were only priests). The levitical priesthood consisted of mortal, sinful men who continually died and had to be re-appointed. The Lord is/was without sin. Melchizedek was "without father, without mother not having geneaolgy, typified an endless life ("of whom it is witnessed that he liveth". The kind of Life and High Priesthood that our Lord now has. Because He lives forever. Allelujah!

Please, if anyone has anything to justify a mandatory tithe or indeed a voluntary one - with unique benefits that make it different from "simple giving" - for NT Christians, just say so. If anyone wishes to languish in the bondage that tithing engenders, again feel free. But please, in the absence of detailed, comprehensive scriptural back-up, stop trying to push this as common practise and sound doctrine.

God bless
TV

@Pilgrim 1.

Unlike you not to appreciate or respond to the proferred answers to your posers?

@Bari-Kade.

Just to let you know that I am still eagerly waiting. But I understand we all labour under time constraints. Please take all the time you need.

God bless
TV

@TV01,

TV01:
@Pilgrim 1.

Unlike you not to appreciate or respond to the proferred answers to your posers?

Actually, I didn't read answers to my questions. And as I didn't want to go into another unnecessary long-winding discussion, I felt it might help our good spirits to leave each one to their persuasion.

pilgrim.1:
@TV01,

Actually, I didn't read answers to my questions. And as I didn't want to go into another unnecessary long-winding discussion, I felt it might help our good spirits to leave each one to their persuasion.

I understand perfectly, and it's exactly what I expected from you !