₦airaland Forum

[4] Leviticus 27:30-33, "And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it, "

TITHE was never met for pastors as the Levites was supposed to use it to feed the poor after the 10% buBurtons offering from the collected tithe.
This is what the then priest avoided, they neither feed the poor nor the mandatory 10% offering,
Malachi 3

7      Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8     Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9     Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10     Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
In the whole of 66 books of protestant Christian bible this is the only reference for milking willing faithfuls

@D.baddie,

D.baddie:
What on earth do you mean by that? I don't follow.

God does not require, mandate, or command any type of giving from the NT Christian.

D.baddie:
Your previous lines state otherwise. Are you contradicting yourself?

Not at all. Until you can prove that anyone was bound to take tithing to such proportions as in those verses, then they are equally bound to do the other as well and not neglect them. Infact, that's one more point that persuades me that God does not require, demand or command anything as far as tithes or giving are concerned.

D.baddie:
Hey! I'm saying God requires worship. And these lines of yours state the same idea. so why would you try to drop the first line above? It's like you're contradicting yourself while trying to state your argument.

I still stand to say that I'm not contradicting my points. If you read me so, pardon me; but could you also show me where God REQUIRES my worship? And when you do so, how would you distinguish that from the idea that that a requirement points to an obligation and mandate in my giving?

D.baddie:
be careful.

Yes sir, no vex.

D.baddie:
i still dey enjoy you sha.

I promise to behave next time!

Hey Hnd-Holder, the fact that only one scripture exists is not enough proof to negate a principle. One word from God is enough: it settles all.
What I belive we are all trying to discover here is where does it say that New Testaments believers are mandated to pay this tithe, right?
To be honest, I don't know. And truly someone spoke my mind here before; with all the revelation Paul had about christ and the Church, why was the tithe never mentioned? seriously, why?

Okay. So if someone "pay" tithes in love, then according to you there's no wahala, abi? Can I ask you: do you pay anything - tithes, free-will, offerings, givings, etc? Why do you do it?

To answer that? What's it to you? If you read  my post well. You ought to at least have an idea. but don't be so quick to judge if I'm right or wrong. I'm here to seek answers too (just like everyone here, I'm sure).

TITHE was never met for pastors as the Levites was supposed to use it to feed the poor after the 10% buBurtons offering from the collected tithe.
This is what the then priest avoided, they neither feed the poor nor the mandatory 10% offering,
Malachi 3

7      Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8     Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9     Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

And someone said "pay your tithe. don't bother what your pastor does with it". ok. , Pay your tax, never bother what the Gov does (if at all they do anything) with it. Abi?

Look all, God is very concerned about what you do with the resources He gave you. That's why good works get rewards, and dead works don't. Again, I say, wisdom is not far. it's free.

@Hnd-holder,

Please sir, may I restate my appeal one more time (since your rejoinder does not answer to the first one): could we help this very interesting discussion move forward? It seems to me that most complaints are borne out of nitpicking gnats and failing to look at the bigger picture.

Hnd-holder:
TITHE was never met for pastors as the Levites was supposed to use it to feed the poor after the 10% buBurtons offering from the collected tithe.
This is what the then priest avoided, they neither feed the poor nor the mandatory 10% offering,

Okay. But my question hasn't been answered by that inference. Here again:

stimulus:

[color=#990000:
Hnd-holder[/color] link=topic=272.msg1205846#msg1205846 date=1181915092]
Tithing was commanded by the LAW while Giving is voluntary from the HEART. Is that it?

Could I be correct in saying that you see "tithing" as a command/commandment; while "giving" is voluntary/free-will because it was from the "HEART"??

Hnd-holder:
In the whole of 66 books of protestant Christian bible this is the only reference for milking willing faithfuls

Again, how does that answer my question? Rather than complain about what others do, what do you see in God's Word?

         Were tithes offered only in terms of a COMMANDMENT and without the HEART?

         What about other verses that show that the OT saints offered from their HEARTS?

         If tithing was commanded by LAW, then who commanded Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?

Thank you again.

@D.baddie,

D.baddie:
To answer that? What's it to you? If you read my post well. You ought to at least have an idea. but don't be so quick to judge if I'm right or wrong. I'm here to seek answers too (just like everyone here, I'm sure).

Whether or not you were right/wrong, I wasn't judging you; and please try not to be so quick in reading people's posts that way.

Everyone is here to learn; and I hinted it earlier in my teaser. That is why I often ask questions, rather than assume that I already know everything about what anyone is saying!

stimulus:
@Hnd-holder,

Please sir, may I restate my appeal one more time (since your rejoinder does not answer to the first one): could we help this very interesting discussion move forward? It seems to me that most complaints are borne out of nitpicking gnats and failing to look at the bigger picture.

Thank you again.

This is a village in the globe, Explain better by the way what do you mean by nitpicking gnats ?

Ey Yah, the converstion is moving at a pace I'm finding hard to keep up with. Anyway, I'll try to respond  .

stimulus:
but His blessing in finances is certainly a matter of how man responds in his giving to Him.

As best I try, I cannot reconcile your position with scripture or practice. Maybe I should ask that you show mathematically how this relationship might work ? Anyway looking at it from the any side of the equation, you are saying God is bound to respond in kind to a financial offering, making Him less than sovereign. It also smacks of a "cost of everything value of nothing" (aka give-to-get) mindset.

May I further ask, is that in relative or absolute terms? So the widow at the treasury, would her reward have been based on her giving all she had (absolute) , or the relative value of what she put in (a pittance)?

stimulus:
The idea that "you don't have to give in order to be blessed" is, unfortunately, not what Scripture teaches (at least, not what I read in Scripture, rather). Now, so that I don't act presumptously, may I ask that you help me offer biblcal texts for your persuasion as highlighted in the quote above.

I would ask that you do likewise.

TayoD:
For instance, despite the fact that by His stripes we are healed, many Christians still fall sick because they fail to take hold of this promise through the action of faith!

Whilst I don't mean to cause offence, could you kindly say (without obsfucating or skirting), what that says about the faith of a number of well known "Pastors" who have taken ill and died recently?

Quite simply put, Faith engenders works, not the other way round.

judemetieh:
Tithing is a biblical injuction, it was made when the Levites who where still doing the work of God where available, but remember that they at a point abandoned their duty post and as such who do you pay the tithe for now when the Levites have left their duty.  Secondly, tithing is 10% of total earnings.  How many people really pay it accordingly.  I as a person find it amusing when people say they pay tithe.  As they pay just from the salary they earn and forgeting about other incomes they make along side.  That is not tithing.  10% of all total income must be given to God.  anything short of that is robbing God.

I beseech you brethren by the sure mercies of God, refuse to be bound or subject to the law.

stimulus:
I'm glad for your sake that you remembered to quote Luke 11:42. Now, read it again as well in Matt. 23:23 --

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

I hope you can see what the Lord pointed out in those verses?

"These ye ought to have done" and also "do not leave the other undone!"

Do these - do the others as well.

Tithing should not take precedence over the weigtier matters of the Law.

Likewise you brother Stimulus. Listen carefully, the law was still in effect while the Lord was alive. He lived and satisfied it completely. To advocate breaking the law would have literally aborted his whole mission. He was talking to Jews/Pharisees, who were yet under the law, not Xtians who are liberated from it by His fulfilling it.

I would further exhort you to understand that He went beyond the letter (tithe), to the intent (love).

stimulus:
Em, D.baddie, I read somewhere that TV01 doesn't think so. The preaching of the Gospel doesn't require money; or something to that effect, he has said before - and I may partly agree with both of you. . . until you explicate what you both and either mean.

Money is not required to spread the gospel.
Money is not required to spread the gospel, but may be spent incidentally.

Sorry mate, I can't really stretch further than that  . As ever, I invite you to show from the scriptural narrative where money is spent primarily to spread the gospel. Indeed, where money moved in the body for anything other than a physical need.

(although I must confess dressing it up as a worship response - spiri, spiri - morphing it into  tithing, and then saying it's not mandatory, but afterall Papa Abraham did it - once to Melchizedek, with what was not his personal wealth or income - is so convoluted, it takes real genius to attempt it )

Finally Bro' Stimulus, could you please show how a tithe (volutary) differs from simple giving? And why there is a need for any distinction? And since you insist that there is a direct relationship between tithing/giving and blessing, please supply an acturial table detailing input and return so's to enable me to plan my retirement (as a worship reasponse of course  ).

Please humour my bout of jolly japes, afterall it is Friday. TGIF.

God bless
TV

And could someone please tell me, what was Abrahams reward/blessing for making that one off tithe (of the spoils of war, of which 90% less expenses went to the king of Sodom) actually was?

In claiming a direct relationship b/w giving and blessing, where in Abrahams lifetime was it ever recorded that God blessed him as a result of his offering, giving or tithing? Yet God blessed him richly and multiplied him abundantly. Likewise Isaac.

Abeg y'all, leave this tithing fallacy once and for all. Experience true Liberty in Christ, not the bondage of the law or the slavery of man-made religion.

God bless
TV

TV may the Lord bless you .Once and for all

You took "NOT TO PAY TITHE"

Another instance in the bible. Gen. 28 v.10-22.
Here, Jacob made a vow to give a tenth of his welath to God. If that was something that God already mandated, It wouldn't have "held any water". In fact, I'm sure God would have stopped him like "Hey! No wonder your name's Jacob! Na me you wan sike like this? You no fear?"
And notice that in this same portion of scripture God had already pronounced a blessing on this man and promised to do more. haba! This God too much!
I say again, he does not need your tithe to bless you. so why are you giving?

Abeg, make una research well-well and answer. i dey close o!
Office don close.

What they tithe was Agricultural products Not money
[10] Nehemiah 10:37-38, "And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God and the TITHES of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the TITHES in all the cities of our tillage.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be the Levites, when the Levites take TITHES: and the Levites shall bring up the TITHE of the TITHES unto the house of our God, to the chambers into the treasure house." Again, no mention of money, only agricultural products of the fields, and only the Levites and priests could have access to these tithes and offerings in the house of God.[11] Nehemiah 12:44, "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the fruitfruits, and for the TITHES, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."Nothing new in this verse that, we have not already discussed here in NAIRALAND.[12] Nehemiah 13:5, 12 "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.""Then brought all Judah the TITHE of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries."Same story: ONLY agricultural products, and ONLY to the Levites and priests.[13] Amos 4:4, "Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your TITHES after three years."[14] Malachi 3:8-10, "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings…"

@Hnd-holder,

This is a village in the globe, Explain better by the way what do you mean by nitpicking gnats ?

My appeal: please let's leave the complaints about what people do or say in some churches.

Second, let's consider this subject from all sides instead of narrowing our thoughts to just one text.

Those were what I meant earlier.

Could I also read answers to the questions I asked?

Cheers.

@TV01,

TV01:
As best I try, I cannot reconcile your position with scripture or practice. Maybe I should ask that you show mathematically how this relationship might work? Anyway looking at it from the any side of the equation, you are saying God is bound to respond in kind to a financial offering, making Him less than sovereign. It also smacks of a "cost of everything value of nothing" (aka give-to-get) mindset.

If only you would not be so driven to conclude before examining issues, you would see that my inputs did not represent God as less than sovereign. Besides, as I twice stated earlier to D.baddie, God requires NOTHING; so the question of making Him "bound" to respond to our giving does not arise.

TV01:
May I further ask, is that in relative or absolute terms? So the widow at the treasury, would her reward have been based on her giving all she had (absolute) , or the relative value of what she put in (a pittance)?

TV01, what did you read about my position? I think it really helps to look at what people state rather than argue from default positions of what you think they have said.

TV01:
Likewise you brother Stimulus. Listen carefully, the law was still in effect while the Lord was alive. He lived and satisfied it completely. To advocate breaking the law would have literally aborted his whole mission. He was talking to Jews/Pharisees, who were yet under the law, not Xtians who are liberated from it by His fulfilling it.

Unfortunately, TV01, I have not argued from the LAW. At least, that is clear from my twice repeated question to Hnd-holder: who commanded Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?

Further, I queried the idea that anytime the word "tithes" is mentioned, many people often and all think of a command and law and mandate - which in my opinion is quite an unhealthy way to discuss this subject.

The point of my quoting Luke 11:42 and Matt. 23:23 to Hnd-holder is to point out the gist of what the Lord meant there; and the fact that I wasn't using those verses to argue for the binding of any LAW upon the Christian is underscored by my follow-up to D.baddie, where I stated that, "Until you can prove that anyone was bound to take tithing to such proportions as in those verses, then they are equally bound to do the other as well and not neglect them." I hope you can appreciate that clearly now and not misread my position on this subject?

TV01:
I would further exhort you to understand that He went beyond the letter (tithe), to the intent (love).

It's sad that you thought I was confusing the letter and the intent.

TV01:
Money is not required to spread the gospel.
Money is not required to spread the gospel, but may be spent incidentally.

Sorry mate, I can't really stretch further than that )

Aiight - your opinion.

TV01:
although I must confess dressing it up as a worship response - spiri, spiri - morphing it into tithing, and then saying it's not mandatory, but afterall Papa Abraham did it - once to Melchizedek, with what was not his personal wealth or income - is so convoluted, it takes real genius to attempt it

Anything you otherwise dress up in your own verbiage for any giving immediately falls into the same assumptions you express against tithing above. The question one should ask here is this: where in the NT is any Christian mandated or obligated to give ANYTHING?

TV01:
Finally Bro' Stimulus, could you please how a tithe (volutary) differs from simple giving? And why there is a need for any distinction? And since you insist that there is a direct relationship between tithing/giving and blessing, please supply an acturial table detailing input and return so's to enable me to plan my retirement (as a worship reasponse of course ).

First, I didn't see you respond at all to my request - which is quite queer. Is it that you had nothing to show from Scripture at all to my request earlier?

Cheers.

Hnd-holder:
Tithing was commanded by the LAW while Giving is voluntary from the HEART. Is that it?

Hnd-holder:
What they tithe was Agricultural products Not money
[10] Nehemiah 10:37-38, "And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God and the TITHES of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the TITHES in all the cities of our tillage.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be the Levites, when the Levites take TITHES: and the Levites shall bring up the TITHE of the TITHES unto the house of our God, to the chambers into the treasure house." Again, no mention of money, only agricultural products of the fields, and only the Levites and priests could have access to these tithes and offerings in the house of God.[11] Nehemiah 12:44, "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the fruitfruits, and for the TITHES, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."Nothing new in this verse that, we have not already discussed here in NAIRALAND.[12] Nehemiah 13:5, 12 "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.""Then brought all Judah the TITHE of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries."Same story: ONLY agricultural products, and ONLY to the Levites and priests.[13] Amos 4:4, "Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your TITHES after three years."[14] Malachi 3:8-10, "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings…"

Now we can see who's been arguing from LAW and narrowing the subject. Just an observation.

Is the LAW the only place where tithes are mentioned? Why is it that many times when people argue against tithes because it MUST always be part of the LAW, they are the very same ones who go back to the LAW to argue the same tithes?

I beg you guys, let's face this issue with open minds and not the sly invectives and back-patting. Leaving what some pastors have said or taught about tithes and giving, and that being the reasons for the disaffections often expressed, could we simply share what each one has come to understand on this subject?

Bro' Stimulus,

Okay, lets leave the law based grounds (redundant) out of it (indeed, we nailed that quite early on in this thread).

I have asked questions around Abrahams tithing and recorded life. Please answer those particilar posers. Thanks.

The question one should ask here is this: where in the NT is any Christian mandated or obligated to give ANYTHING?

I hope this isn't an attempt to slip away?

The NT exhorts giving, clearly details it as a grace, (grace in action II Cor IIX), and comes with Christian maturity and love. Evidenced by the "had all things in common" approach of the early Chrisitnas (Acts), the sacrificial offering of the Macedonians (II Cor IIX). Never as an obligation, but as a hearts response. The very term "give", means it is not mandatory.

There is nothing about a mandatory tithe and a voluntary one cannot be distinguished from giving, unless you ascribe some benefits from doing so, thus ascribing it some sort of difference from normal giving? Now, pray tell, does the NT do that?

The only way out, is a voluntary tithe as an individual response, which does not in itself accrue benefits denied to one who does not do same, or mark the tither out as any more spiritual or mature. If that's your call no qualms.


Can we finish this before home time please ? I don't get paid O/T.

God bless
TV

Hi all,

I've been busy all day even though this thread is moving so fast! But I just needed to say here that you guys are making it difficult for me to share anything because it is fast becoming a quarrel and hilarity than a thirst to examine truth.

The first time that tithes were mentioned in the Bible is in Gen. 14:20 -- "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. "

That verse is loaded with deep truth; but quite so often, those who argue against tithing from the LAW that came centuries later will find it difficult to see the implication of that verse.

I'd like to share a bit more on that - but certainly not while the quarrel is going on.

Bless all.

stimulus:
Now we can see who's been arguing from LAW and narrowing the subject. Just an observation.

Is the LAW the only place where tithes are mentioned? Why is it that many times when people argue against tithes because it MUST always be part of the LAW, they are the very same ones who go back to the LAW to argue the same tithes?

I beg you guys, let's face this issue with open minds and not the sly invectives and back-patting. Leaving what some pastors have said or taught about tithes and giving, and that being the reasons for the disaffections often expressed, could we simply share what each one has come to understand on this subject?

But I just did.

Please read mine.

It baffles me when I hear something like "New testament believer" does that mean they don't believe in old testament teachings/occurence etc, the old testament I understand, is the new testament concealed while the new testament is the old testament revealed. The fact that tithing was not mentioned in the new testament does not negate the practice. It is a matter of choice and as for me, I go for it.

Hi TV01,

TV01:
The NT exhorts giving, clearly details it as a grace, (grace in action II Cor IIX), and comes with Christian maturity and love. Evidenced by the "had all things in common" approach of the early Chrisitnas (Acts), the sacrificial offering of the Macedonians (II Cor IIX). Never as an obligation, but as a hearts response. The very term "give", means it is not mandatory.

Since it was not mandatory, Abraham gave tithes - Gen. 14:20. I think stimulus would be happy now to see that you've come round stating his very point.

@Hnd-holder,

Hnd-holder:
What they tithe was Agricultural products Not money

Does that mean all that Abraham gave Melchizedek as tithes were agricultural products?

bari_kade:
Hi all,

I've been busy all day even though this thread is moving so fast! But I just needed to say here that you guys are making it difficult for me to share anything because it is fast becoming a quarrel and hilarity than a thirst to examine truth.

The first time that tithes were mentioned in the Bible is in Gen. 14:20 -- "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. "

hat verse is loaded with deep truth; but quite so often, those who argue against tithing from the LAW that came centuries later will find it difficult to see the implication of that verse.

I'd like to share a bit more on that - but certainly not while the quarrel is going on.

Bless all.

We are all waiting to read your on contribution on this topic that is more than 3 years old. Try to remain in the frame " TO tithe or NOT to tithe.


Nitpicking Gnats This was words from stimulus  and  GNATS are bitting flies, while Nitpicking refers to unjustified critism

"For example, people take great pains to ensure their dress codes are keeping every bizarre fashion trend at bay by the application of nitpicking policies"

In using the proverb of gnats and camels, Jesus was vividly illustrating the foolishness of convoluted priorities

“You blind guides, you who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.” (Matthew 23:24)
nitpicking gnats As far as straining gnats, I'd like to say that I for one am NOT a big fan
of eating gnat soup! Jesus was NOT so much condemning gnat straining in His
famous quote so much as He was condemning camel swallowing. So I guess the
question we need to ask ourselves is this: what exactly is the camel we are
swallowing? Is it that we are spending too much time "nitpicking" our
worship and not enough actually doing it?

[b]"Gen. 14:20, "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he [Abram] gave him [Melchizedek king of Salem, the priest of the most high God, Ver. 18] TITHES of all [all the goods of war, Ver. 16]."
Heb. 7:1-10, "For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him, to whom Abraham parts a TITHE also, from all, 

Now, behold how eminent this one is to whom the patriarch Abraham gives a TITHE also of the best of the booty. And, indeed, those of the sons of Levi who obtain the priestly office have a direction to take TITHES from the people according to the law,  And here, indeed, dying men are obtaining TITHES,  And so, to say, through Abraham, Levi also, who is obtaining the TITHES, has been TITHED, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek meets with him."There are a number of things we can learn concerning tithing from this section of Scriptures. In this, the first mention of tithing in the Bible, Abram gives to Melchizedek (a priest of God who was also the king of the city of Salem) a tithe of the best of the booty taken in war.

Notice that this was not wheat, corn, wine, oil, or cattle from Abram’s personal possessions, but rather booty taken from conquered nations. There is nothing stated here that would cause us to conclude that Abram (later changed to Abraham) ever tithed on a regular basis on his own person possessions. Although Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of the booty of war, he told the king of Sodom that he would take none of it for himself."[/b]

@Hnd-holder,

Hnd-holder:
We are all waiting to read your on contribution on this topic that is more than 3 years old. Try to remain in the frame " TO tithe or NOT to tithe.

I've stated that I would make my inputs soon; and I think you can forgive the fact that I'm not quite 3 years old on Nairaland. If you ask TV01, I'm not one to derail topics on threads.

Hnd-holder:
Nitpicking Gnats This was words from stimulus  and  GNATS are bitting flies, while Nitpicking refers to unjustified critism

I see his concern - and I partly agree with him that this thread is once again spiralling out of context.

Hnd-holder:
"For example, people take great pains to ensure their dress codes are keeping every bizarre fashion trend at bay by the application of nitpicking policies"

And the point is?

Hnd-holder:
In using the proverb of gnats and camels, Jesus was vividly illustrating the foolishness of convoluted priorities

“You blind guides, you who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.” (Matthew 23:24)
nitpicking gnats As far as straining gnats, I'd like to say that I for one am NOT a big fan
of eating gnat soup! Jesus was NOT so much condemning gnat straining in His
famous quote so much as He was condemning camel swallowing. So I guess the
question we need to ask ourselves is this: what exactly is the camel we are
swallowing? Is it that we are spending too much time "nitpicking" our
worship and not enough actually doing it?

I think stimulus explained what he meant:  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-272.864.html#msg1206301

I can understand that he might have been appealing that we don't take our persuasions merely from one text or a few without looking at the whole picture. I don't think anything's wrong with that either.

@Hnd-holder,

Hnd-holder:
"[1] Gen. 14:20, "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he [Abram] gave him [Melchizedek king of Salem, the priest of the most high God, Ver. 18] TITHES of all [all the goods of war, Ver. 16]."[2] Heb. 7:1-10, "For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him, to whom Abraham parts a TITHE also, from all, Now, behold how eminent this one is to whom the patriarch Abraham gives a TITHE also of the best of the booty. And, indeed, those of the sons of Levi who obtain the priestly office have a direction to take TITHES from the people according to the law, And here, indeed, dying men are obtaining TITHES, And so, to say, through Abraham, Levi also, who is obtaining the TITHES, has been TITHED, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek meets with him."There are a number of things we can learn concerning tithing from this section of Scriptures. In this, the first mention of tithing in the Bible, Abram gives to Melchizedek (a priest of God who was also the king of the city of Salem) a tithe of the best of the booty taken in war. Notice that this was not wheat, corn, wine, oil, or cattle from Abram’s personal possessions, but rather booty taken from conquered nations. There is nothing stated here that would cause us to conclude that Abram (later changed to Abraham) ever tithed on a regular basis on his own person possessions. Although Abraham gave Melchizedek a tithe of the booty of war, he told the king of Sodom that he would take none of it for himself."

I think it might be a bit helpful to make a neat outline of this so we easily see what is Scripture as distinct from your opinions. Just a request.

Cheers.

bari_kade:
@Hnd-holder,

Does that mean all that Abraham gave Melchizedek as tithes were agricultural products?

But no record that he tithe every month he did it once. Not from his hard earn money.

] Leviticus 27:30-33, "And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it, "


] Numbers 18:24-28, "But the TITHES of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. And the Lord spoke unto Moses, saying, Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the TITHES which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a TENTH part of the TITHE. And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshing floor, and as the fullness of the winepress. Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your TITHES, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord’s heave offering to Aaron the priest."

[b]Deut. 14:22-29, "Thou shall truly TITHE all the INCREASE of thy SEED, that the field brings forth year by year." "And you shall eat before the lord your God, in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the TITHE of thy CORN, of thy WINE, and of your OIL, and the FIRSTLINGS OF THY HERDS and of thy FLOCKS: that thou may learn to fear the Lord thy God always.And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:Then shall thou turn it into MONEY, and bind up the MONEY in your hand, and shall go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:And thou shall BESTOW THAT MONEY FOR WHATSOEVER YOUR SOUL LUSTETH AFTER, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for WHATSOEVER YOUR SOUL DESIRES: and YOU shall eat there before the Lord thy God, and THOU shall rejoice, THOU, AND THINE HOUSEHOLD.And the Levite that is within thy gates, thou shall not forsake him; for he has no part, nor inheritance with thee.At the end of three years thou shall bring forth all the TITHE of thine INCREASE the same year, and shall lay it up within thy gates:And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the STRANGER, and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, which are within thy gates, shall come, and SHALL EAT AND BE SATISFIED; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of your hand which thou doest."[/b]

This third year of tithing

Deut. 26:12, "When thou hast made an end of TITHING all the TITHES of your INCREASE the third year, which is the year of TITHING, and has given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled."

Hnd-holder:
But no record that he tithe every month he did it once. Not from his hard earn money.

It was a simple question. Whether he tithed every month or just once is not the issue here.

Did Abraham give tithe? Yes - Gen. 14:20. Even Levi who was not yet born was said to have also paid tithes in Abraham - Heb. 7:9.

I just wanted to know if in Abraham's case, your general rule of thumb applied as that his tithes were agricultural products.

Thanks.

@bari_kade
Thanks you are right.I love your person. I have written alot on this tithe issue. Even the history of tithe it was a bloody issue in IRELAND at a point in time. I am going home now till monday. Best regards

Hnd-holder:
@bari_kade
Thanks you are right.I love your person. I have written alot on this tithe issue. Even the history of tithe it was a bloody issue in IRELAND at a point in time. I am going home now till monday. Best regards

Enjoy, bros.

bari_kade:
It was a simple question. Whether he tithed every month or just once is not the issue here.

I disagree, I think it is a key point. Or are you suggesting it has no bearing on the discussion or is in no way germaine? I'll outline my understanding of the why & how of "Abrahams tithe" below.

bari_kade:
Did Abraham give tithe? Yes - Gen. 14:20. Even Levi who was not yet born was said to have also paid tithes in Abraham - Heb. 7:9.

This is also pivotal in understanding the whole narrative around Melchizedek, Abraham and the "one off tithe"

Possibly the greatest import of Abrahams one-off tithe was to establish the superiority of the Melchizedek - and hence the Lords - priesthood over the Levitical/Aaronic type. That is why the reference to Levi is made. That is, Levi - via Abrahmam - also paid tithes to a priest. As the "Blessor" is always greater than the "blessee" (verse 7 to your 9), this is a sure indication of said superiority.  I don't believe it has anything to do with worship protocol or practice for NT believers.

I repeat, and my position remains, a tithe for NT Christians cannot be infered from, or is in any way alluded to in the scriptural narrative, OT or NT.

I will go as far as to say, that those who try and work back from a NT tithe to Abrahams symbolic action in the OT, cannot seriously be doing so out of theological integrity, but more as a way to enforce tradition, that if done away with would cripple the financing of their religious structures.

I will further go on to say that whether you say it is mandatory, with a curse attached for non-compliance, or voluntary, with blessing associated with adherence, it's the flip side of the same coin. A toss-up between spiritual untruth and religious deception.

A tithe for a NT believer can only be an individual, voluntary, non-enforced and non-binding (universally)response, that in no way marks them out as more mature or spiritual, or engenders blessings denied those who don't tithe or simply give.

bari_kade:
I just wanted to know if in Abraham's case, your general rule of thumb applied as that his tithes were agricultural products.

Abrahams one-off tithe was symbolic, as outlined above. The tithe introduced at the advent of the levitical priesthood was practical. To cater for the "Clergy", the needy and the stranger (not to mention summer barbies  ).

Hnd-holder:
Thanks you are right.I love your person. I have written alot on this tithe issue. Even the history of tithe it was a bloody issue in IRELAND at a point in time.

Yes 0, it was on the UK statute books as late as 1953 (although by then totally ignored until it's repeal). And on the statutes of quite a few European nations up until the 19th/20th centuries.

bari_kade:
I've stated that I would make my inputs soon; and I think you can forgive the fact that I'm not quite 3 years old on Nairaland. If you ask TV01, I'm not one to derail topics on threads.

True

bari_kade:
I've been busy all day even though this thread is moving so fast! But I just needed to say here that you guys are making it difficult for me to share anything because it is fast becoming a quarrel and hilarity than a thirst to examine truth.

I disagree, it may be getting heated, even a bit niggley (evidence of the passion posters are bringing to the discussion methinks), but focus is definitely being maintained.

bari_kade:
The first time that tithes were mentioned in the Bible is in Gen. 14:20 -- "And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. "

That verse is loaded with deep truth; but quite so often, those who argue against tithing from the LAW that came centuries later will find it difficult to see the implication of that verse.

I think everyone is agreed that a NT tithe cannot be inferred from the law. I for one would be extremely grateful if you would share some hitherto unknown or misunderstood truth contained in the scriptural narrative, most especially from the verse you referenced above.

Thanks

God bless
TV

_{I would agree with bari-kade in that maybe we should ask and respond to specific questions (one each at a time) in order to keep it tight. Unless of course someone introduces some insight that blows all previous submissions clean out of the water.}

Hi TV01,

TV01:
I hope this isn't an attempt to slip away?

No, I wasn't slipping away. The discussion was spiralling out of context and that's why I chilled out until such a time when it would be more genial for us to hold a discussion, rather than disaffections.

I'll see how the week goes. Cheers.

http://www.allstrettonhistory.org.uk/Tithe/tabid/269/Default.aspx
From the early middle ages, land owners had been compelled to give a tenth of their produce to the Church: one in ten eggs, one in ten pails of milk, one in ten sheaves of corn etc. This was obviously a cumbersome form of taxation, and in addition, from the Reformation onwards, it was complicated by various arrangements involving cash. By the early 19th century there was great political pressure behind the movement for a simpler and more equitable system for paying one’s dues to the Church, and in 1836 the Tithe Communication Act was passed, introducing cash payments based on the price of corn. As a consequence, parishes were surveyed to establish the exact quantity of each property, and a map was produced, with a book of reference, showing the apportionment of the tithe due from the whole parish. This book, commonly called the “apportionment”, gave the name of the owner and the occupier of each individual holding, the names of fields, and the amount due for each property. Each field or house or garden was cross-referenced between the map and the apportionment by numbers.

The tithe map for the parish of Church Stretton is dated 1840, but there is good reason to believe that the survey actually took place in 1838.

We will soon get to that level in NIgeria.

@ stimulus
This topic is asking a question to pay or not to pay tithe we should limit our self to that topic. Give freely or free will action has its own blessing because only in the given can you receive.

That is what ever you sow you will reap.

“Do all the good you can, By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can, In all the places you can,
At all the times you can, To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.”
~ John Wesley

New Testament is the principle that "you reap what you sow." Paul told the Corinthian brethren that "he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully" (II Cor. 9:6). God is able to supply your every need so you don't ever have to worry about giving "too much." Jesus reminded us of this principle when he said "Give and it shall be given to you . . . with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you. (Lk. 6:38). This "cause and effect" relationship between behavior and benefit is powerfully taught throughout the Bible. Consider these truths:

Sowing to spirituality reaps spiritual rewards. Paul wrote to the brethren in the Galatian region and encouraged them to generously support those who teach and preach God's word among them (Gal. 6vr6). He explains that if their mind and money are in support of spiritual things they would reap great spiritual benefits. "For he who sows to flesh will . . . reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will . . . reap everlasting life" (Gal. 6 vr8). While we are to accept this particular law of "cause and effect" simply because God said it is so, anyone who has practiced it has proven it over and over. If we give freely to others, God will give more to us so we can give more to others and the cycle goes on and on. What a great God we have above – what woes unto them who never know the joy of freely giving.

Sowing sin reaps sorrow (Prov. 22vr8). The prophet Hosea addressed a rebellious Israel and pronounced judgment on their land. They had trusted in their earthly allies to deliver them instead of their all-powerful God. Hosea explained that they had "sown the wind" and they would reap the whirlwind of God's wrath (Hos. 8vr7). The divine principle of sowing and reaping works both ways. The Roman letter explains the same end to those who sow their own pride and rebellion. Paul taught that "in accordance with" the Jews' hard and impenitent heart they were "treasuring up" the wrath of God. After all, God will "render to each one according to his deeds" (Rom. 2:5-6). Note the phrase "in accordance with." This shows that to the extent the Jews refused God's goodness they would reap His righteous indignation (Rom. 2vr8).

It's not enough to just sit by and let the great opportunities for good go unheeded. We must take every advantage of sowing spiritual appetites both in ourselves and in our fellow man. God's pure-positive law of "reaping what you sow" is as constant and steadfast as the immutability of His nature. Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
http://www.surfinthespirit.com/charity/reap-what-you-sow.html

The above is not tithe? It is just giving. Act of stealing by method using only Mal. 3 vr 10. known as tithe is what I feel is fake as Paul never mention Tithe as a way of receiving God blessing.