Are Catholics Born Again?


Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again." For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp

Hi Lioness,

After the problems with the database, I was just browsing a few of the threads again and came across your post quoted below.
quote author=lioness link=topic=2894.msg287609#msg287609 date=1144850575]
I have come to the conclusion that there are
1. Christians - who follow Christ Jesus, believers in his teachings, Love and atonement
2. Denominational worshippers - those who worship their denomination. Those who would rather die for their church/denomination instead of dying for Christ.
[quote][/quote]
That pretty much captures a point I arrived at. I'm really interested to hear how this understanding has worked itself out in your walk.

Please let me know if/when/how.

God bless

Hi Lioness,

After the problems with the database, I was just browsing a few of the threads again and came across your post quoted below.

lioness:

I have come to the conclusion that there are
1. Christians - who follow Christ Jesus, believers in his teachings, Love and atonement
2. Denominational worshippers - those who worship their denomination. Those who would rather die for their church/denomination instead of dying for Christ.

That pretty much captures a point I arrived at. I'm really interested to hear how this understanding has worked itself out in your walk.

Please let me know if/when/how.

God bless

Hi again, TV01,

I see you're really interested in holding a conversation about the matters you raised. Thank you for leaving me some replies - I've seen them before but didn't have the time out of my busy schedules and travels. Well then, if you'd like to discuss church models or structures here or in another thread, I'm available anytime (though you'd have to forgive my late responses as I explained).

However, I quite understand what the church is from the NT and the talk of "going to church" is not wrong but merely semantics. The Church is the community of believers, and one could "go to" these believers for something other than a meeting of worship as in Acts 4:23 ("they went to their own company". It is true that as believers in Christ, we are the Church; but that does not mean that one couldn't 'go to' the church as the community of believers.

TV01:

At no time did I say I do not assemble or fellowship with other believers. Neither have I forsaken collective worship, the breaking of bread or ministering.

That may well be true, but you didn't give me a clear picture in your previous post about your position when you wrote:

TV01:

I actually do not have a"church" that I am a member of, neither a group that I belong too.
It really is just me.

This is not what I see in the Bible, for even the apostle Paul recognizes people as belonging to a local church and not free-lancing (pardon the word) - see the following Col. 4:9 & 12 where he referred to Onesimus and Epaphras as being members of the local church in Colosse. The fact that the Body of Christ includes every believer does not negate the responsibility of active participation in a local church as such. When the Church in Jerusalem sent messages to believers in other places, they clearly designated the bearers as belonging to the local church in Jerusalem (Acts 15:22 - 'chosen men of their own company'). There are several other texts that clearly demonstrate the responsibility of fellowshipping as believers in local churches rather than a spirit of independence. But as you later replied, you may not have forsaken collective worship, which is good - but I just wanted to make this clear from the impression you gave me in your earlier post.

TV01:

Assembling is not a question of numbers, 2 or 3 satisfies.
Fellowship is primarily with The Father and His Son Jesus Christ - 1 John 1:3.

Christian fellowship goes together with other believers as well. Study that text in I John 1:1-3 carefully. You will see that the fellowship with the Father and the Son is expressed in a collective way with other believers. John spoke of fellowship with the Father and the Son as an affirmation of the fellowship that believers have together with the apostles: (1) "that ye also may have fellowship with us" comes before (2) "and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". You can't separate the one from the other, because one is useless without the other.

Answering your questions:
I don't understand what you mean by tradition/model of worship, but briefly I'll say that our local church does not reject or refuse what the NT states.

Everyone is encouraged to love the Lord and express this love in joyful commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Everyone is encouraged to discover their gifts serve as the Lord apportions and enables each one.

We apprecaite and love the leaders in our church, esteeming them in love for their labours.

If I'm missing your point, please let me know.

Kind regards.

C'mon, of course we are born again, we just don't go around broadcasting it all over the place. We r a bit of what you might call private. It is between us and God! We believe that Jesus is our lord and Saviour and died for our sins . Etc, etc, etc. We are born again at baptism which most of us actually perform when we are babies. So could it be that we started the trend?

Na so!

can somebody explain to me about telling Mary to pray for us, when Jesus already told us that none goes to the father expect through Him. Please back it up with the Bible. Please i just want to be clear

John 2
Jesus Changes Water to Wine
1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there,

2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.

3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."

4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[a]

7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

what religion are you?and what gives you the right to go around insulting other religions.get a life bro coz you will regret some things that you say
.you have to remember that romans were the first people to hold the bible before you.so think about it

Oh my goodness Hnd-holder.
U have just insulted catholics. You mean thats the verse [you claim] catholics got their leading from

The BIBLE was just the record of Catholic traditions, How can records be superior to the tradition. All protestants are just protesting.


LUKE 1

26     ¶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27     To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28     And the angel came in unto her, and said,
]
Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29     And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30     And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31     And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32     He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33     And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34     Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35     And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36     And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37     For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38     And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39     ¶ And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40     And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

Just the voice mary was enough to make a baby move then.


Honor to mary.

Anyone who has read that passage in Luke 1:26-45 will see clearly that the only reason that the baby in Elizabeth's womb lept for joy is because mary was carrying Jesus. The big deal is not about Mary but about the seed in her womb. As Elizabeth said, it is all about her Lord whom Mary was to give birth to.

@lioness,

It is not only Mary they pray to, they pray to all manner of Saints. From what I learnt recently, one of the steps to becoming a Saint in Catholism is if there is a miracle when someone prays to you. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong on this issue.

Anyway, Luke 1;28 and 48 are some of the primary reasons why they give so much attention to Mary. they fail to see however that the Bible says that Mary is blessed amongst women and not above them. And by the way, it talks only of women and not men.

can somebody please answer my question with biblical back up

what about making a grave image likeness of anything in heaven, or earth or beneath the sea and even bowing down to them Exd 20 vs 3-5

@ TayoD

you heard wrong
one of the steps to canonization is that miracle(s) occur when you ask the saint to intercede for you
not when you pray to the saint. the same way you would say remember me in your prayers so and so because i have exams next week or pray for journey mercies, the same you have prayer warriors and prayer partners and prayer groups. when the Lord say when two or more are gathered in my name, i am there. i didnt see anything about it being by force that ppl must be alive

of course, some ppl do pray to saints, this is syncretism possibly because due to culture and past religions. as you well know a lot of religions involve one big God who is quite inaccessible and lots of small gods. so some ppl especially converts and ppl who dont understand the catchechism these lesser gods with saints and pray to them to gain favour with God. this is wrong but ppl still do it. like blacksmiths praying to ogun to get to oludamare, ignorance and lack of info i say. but that is not what the church teaches. it is sad that it happens but the church cannot be policing what you are doing with that shrine to mary in your house lol.

as for being born again, that is baptism and confirmation in the church. a lot of ppl think that being baptised as infants is wrong and confirmation isnt such a hot idea. but then again the purposes and meaning of baptism in the church are slightly different from that in a lot of protestant and pentecostal churches. furthermore, salvation also takes on a slightly different meaning.

@gigitte,

Thanks for your correction! however, I still do not see much differece in the two scenarios we paited, though yours is definitely more accurate.

The scriptures that you are talking about says we should pray one for another. Does that mean that you are also interceding for those who are dead already? Or do they have the monopoly of interceding for the living? And while you are asking them to intercede for you, are you not assuming that these departed saints are both Omnipresent and omnipotent? So can they hear you and a thousand others praying at the same time at differenet locations, though some of the prayers may not have been verbalised but thought of?

Besides, isn't Jesus Christ enough for us as an intercessor? He is the only one the Bible says "ever liveth to make intercession for us." As far as I know, those practices seem good and spiritual but they are antiscriptural. But then, how much importance do catholics attach to the Bible?

@TayoD
yes we also pray for the dead esp those in purgatory. and no you are not assuming that they are omnipotent or omnipresent, afterall i dont know what goes on in heaven. of course praying to jesus is good enough but please tell me you've never asked anyone to pray for you before.
if you want to believe these practices are anti scriptural even though i gave you bible verses, all good and fine because you choose to inteprete those scriptures differently. however the church does ascribe utmost importance to the bible, without the church you wouldnt have your bible anyway. however, the church also uses tradition in its catchechism. this is because peter is believed to be the first pope and that line of continuity was never broken, so things that the disciples and early christians did that were not recorded in the bible are considered to be tradition and as such are put in the catcechism (this is why a lot of ppl say Catholics do stuff that isnt in the Bible, The bible isnt the end all and be all of the church, i.e we dont do sola scriptura)

Please note that catholic do not stand on the protestants canonized BIBLE, The whole bible came from catholic and Matins Luther picked only 66 books which he said in enough for their teaching. Check Gospel of John 21 vr 25. You will not find any catholic practices in the protestant BIBLE.

Mary was named the queen of heaven or who is the queen of Heaven.
look at this
Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Mary freely and actively cooperated in a unique way with God’s plan of salvation

(Luke 1:38; Gal. 4:4).

Like any mother, she was never separated from the suffering of her Son (Luke 2:35),

and Scripture promises that those who share in the sufferings of Christ will share in his glory (Rom. 8:17).

Since she suffered a unique interior martyrdom, it is appropriate that Jesus would honor her with a unique glory.

All Christians believe that one day we will all be raised in a glorious form and then caught up and rendered immaculate to be with Jesus forever (1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 21:27).

As the first person to say "yes" to the good news of Jesus (Luke 1:38),

Mary is in a sense the prototypical Christian, and received early the blessings we will all one day be given.


The Bible Only? the Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not explicit in Scripture,

we get into an entirely separate matter,

the question of sola scriptura, or the Protestant "Bible only" theory.
the position of the Catholic Church is true, and the notion of sola scriptura is false. There is then no problem with the Church officially defining a doctrine which is not explicitly in Scripture, so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).

Statue Worship?
People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be."

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: "‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live." This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite).
In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus.
There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.

When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included "his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: "In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it" (2 Chr. 3:10–14).
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

Today we have another life where we can debate and say things from diffrent angle. Catholic met all these tradition

Jeremiah 44:17
We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm.

Jeremiah 44:18
But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

Jeremiah 44:19 The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?"
Jeremiah 44:25 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.' "Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows!

Think first the kingdom of the lord, not the practice of religious bodies, what you do not know ask or leave it outand follow rules for Holy Living
Colossians 3
1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

Matthew 18:2-6

2 He called a little child and had him stand among them.

3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.

6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Regards

you people dont understant the meaning of religion.get your facts straight before you can say anything.

@TayoD
yes we also pray for the dead esp those in purgatory. and no you are not assuming that they are omnipotent or omnipresent, afterall i don't know what goes on in heaven. of course praying to jesus is good enough but please tell me you've never asked anyone to pray for you before.
if you want to believe these practices are anti scriptural even though I gave you bible verses, all good and fine because you choose to inteprete those scriptures differently. however the church does ascribe utmost importance to the bible, without the church you wouldnt have your bible anyway. however, the church also uses tradition in its catchechism. this is because peter is believed to be the first pope and that line of continuity was never broken, so things that the disciples and early christians did that were not recorded in the bible are considered to be tradition and as such are put in the catcechism (this is why a lot of people say Catholics do stuff that isnt in the Bible, The bible isnt the end all and be all of the church, i.e we don't do sola scriptura)

Where is purgatory in the Bible I ask? This is not just tradition, but anti-scriptureal. There are 3 compartments under the earth that the Bible preaches and purgatory is not one of them. And by the way, how do you know which deoarted Saint is in purgatory for you to intercede for? This is nothing but making for commandment the traditions of men as Jesus mentioned. Also, making the word of God of non-effect by such traditions.
The Bible verses you gave me were stretched to accomodate those traditions. It does not in anyway encourage it. May I ask, did Paul send a copy of the letter he sent out to the church to purgatory as well, so that all in purgatory will oey the command to pray for those who live?

This Peter thing as being the Pope is another thing I do not see in scripture. You guys have stretched the scriptures to accomodate your traditions and the references to Peter in the New Testament does not suggest him to be acting as any Pope. He called himself a fellow-elder and he was a member of the Church in Jerusalem where James was pastor over him.

I don't have any problems with traditions, because we all do have traditions. However, when traditions are elevated above the word of God, then i will have problems. It doesn't matter if the Bible came through the catholic church, even God uses the devil for His own glory.

Hi All,

Bro'TayoD, you said;

TayoD:

He called himself a fellow-elder and he was a member of the Church in Jerusalem where James was pastor over him.

James pastor over Peter? How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

I guess Catholics are not the only one's with questions to answer.

God bless

If you need to know. We have catholic and others who are protesting as protestant. catholic own the scripture they therefore do not live in the past, Scriptures are records of the past. The catholics careless about this HISTORY which some people now turn to their GOD.

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/explaining_purgatory/


God Himself tells us that nothing imperfect can enter Heaven (Cf. Revelation 21:27). Only the very good immediately enter Heaven and the very bad desrve Hell. Seeing as how, when we die, many of us will not fit in either of those two extreme ategories we must fit somewhere else; somewhere in the middle; this place is called Purgatory.

You see, the majority of people are neither so free from sin as to merit immediate entrance into Heaven, nor so bad as to be punished forever in Hell.

Let us compare human justice with that of divine justice. They are both somewhat similar because our human justice system is modeled after the divine justice system. Without the divine justice system we could have no human justice system.

Human justice recognizes big criminals and little criminals and punishes them accordingly. It has a jail to punish criminals for one, ten, or thirty days, and a penitentiary where it punishes many for several years to lifetimes. For instance, say in your community two men are arrested, one for speeding and one for murder; both are tried and sentenced to the penitentiary for life.

Do you consider that justice when one who speeds commits a lesser crime than the other yet gets the same punishment as the murderer?

If you deny Purgatory, then you are accusing God of dealing unjustly with His disobedient creatures.

Purgatory is the place where those who die with small sin(s) unatoned are punished for an amount of time appropriate to the amount and severity of the sin(s) as deemed by God. It is the final purification. Those who make it to Purgatory, die in the state of grace. They are the friends of God, who before death, were guilty of venial sin(s) or they failed to do sufficient penance for sins already forgiven.

The Catechism describes it as a process and not a place of purification after death for the saved. To claim that you are assured of your salvation and entrance into Heaven because you simply believe in Jesus is blasphemy. For if that were true you would have to be as perfect as God and Jesus which no human is capable of (which we, however, are to strive for). You would have to not have the ability to sin.

@Hnd_holder,

You do yourself and the catholic faith a great harm by claiming that Mary is the Queeen of Heaven.  Do you ever read the scriptures in context?  See what you wrote and see the entire context:

Mary was named the queen of heaven or who is the queen of Heaven. look at this Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:16-20  16 "So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the Lord. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame? 20 "'Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.
Do you realise that God is saying that the people provoke Him to anger by offering up sacrifices to the Queen of heaven whom the scripture refers to as other god?  How blind can you be to see this truth?

You also quoted Jeremiah 44:25

Jeremiah 44:25 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.' "Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows!

Jeremiah 44:20-26 20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 "Did not the Lord remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the Lord could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the Lord and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see." 24 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, "Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah in Egypt. 25 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.' "Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! 26 But hear the word of the Lord, all Jews living in Egypt: 'I swear by my great name,' says the Lord, 'that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, "As surely as the Sovereign Lord lives."
Again, reading further down this verses will reveal that God intends to punish the people for this practice.  He encouraged them to go ahead and carry out their intentions while he carries out His intended judgment as well.  This scenario reminds me of Prophet Balaam whom God warned several times not to curse Isreal but he intended to do what was on his mind.  The Lord told Him eventually to go ahead but he suffered the consequences of that disobedience.

One other thing I will like to point your attention to is the fact that Mary was not even born at the time this event took place.  Are you now trying to tell us Mary was also reincarnated like Jesus?  Are you trying to tell us that she is also from of old, from everlasting?  Are you placing her in the realm of divinity?  Can you provide more proofs for that?  And may I also point to your attnetion that no where in the scriptures is mary regarded as that Queen of heaven.  This exists only in the realm of your imaginations.

@TV01,

James pastor over Peter? How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

Historically, James is known to be the Pastor of the church in Jerusalem of which Peter was a member. Peter was obviously an elder in that church, and since an elder is still subject to a pastor, then we can safely deduce that Peter was subject to the authority of James within that local assembly.

TayoD God bless you and all the other Christians that want to obey God in spirit and in truth,believing only the scriptures and not the works of a denomination.

Hnd holder,I believe it's now time for a degree program.
This is a good site about real catholicism.
Compare the teachings with that of Christ.
Only Christ can save,Church attendance will not.

Shallom.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholicism_is_of_the_devil.htm