Catholicism and Orthodoxy focus on Mary as a living person who can intercede with her Son, Jesus Christ, on behalf of humanity. From the beginning of the Church, Catholic theology has believed that Christ is the sole Mediator between God and Man (1 Tim 2:5). Yet as Ludwig Ott observes, "there is nothing to prevent others in a certain way (secundum quid) from being called mediators between God and man, in so far as they, by preparing or serving, cooperate in uniting men to God". Catholic theology proposes that Mary's willed obedience (Lk 1:38) is contrasted with Eve's disobedience (Gn 3:6), an idea with roots in the writings of the Church Fathers. Mary is not equal to Christ in Catholic theology. Nonetheless her role was pivotal.

Accusations of idolatry

Some Protestants have accused Catholics and Orthodox of idolatry in focusing on Mary rather than on Jesus Christ, suggesting that Catholics adore the Virgin Mary in breach of the Ten Commandments which condemn keeping "false gods". This point was offered especially by Calvin. In Catholic theology there is a clear distinction drawn between the worship of latria (adoration, which may be offered only to God), and veneration and praise, or dulia. Catholicism has traditionally accorded to the Virgin Mary the veneration of hyperdulia which rests in part upon the angelic salutation, "Hail, full of grace" (Lk 1:28), a phrase with momentous theological impact.

Over the centuries, according to the Roman Catholics, the nature of Mary within theology became clearer. By A.D. 403 we find St. Epiphanius refuting a sect called the Collyridians who adored Mary, telling them: "Mary should be honoured, but the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost should be adored. Nobody should adore Mary". Thus we find, from the third century Church, veneration of Mary. Later, the belief that Mary intercedes for us with her Divine Son, and a clear distinction between latria and dulia together with a rejection of the notion of giving latria to Mary. The Saints, for their part, receive dulia. This distinction between latria, hyperdulia, and dulia, is key to understanding Catholic and Orthodox Tradition.

Praying to Mary was made official in the seventh century, her own conception being without original sin made dogmatic in 1854 AD, and in 1950 AD it was defined dogmatically by the Roman Catholic Church that she ascended into Heaven bodily. The Church has never stated directly that Mary didn't die, because there is evidence that she has.

These proclamations by the Roman Catholic Church, in addition to calling Mary the mother of God (instead of the mother of the human body of Jesus Christ), the Queen of Heaven, and the Queen of the World has led to such accusations. It should be noted however, that Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and that in his human nature he is both God and man. Catholics counter the attack lead by Protestants by stating that many Protestants have fallen into the Nestorian heresy which claimed that Jesus has two natures (persons, wills): divine and human. Catholics do not believe Mary is the source of Jesus' divinity, but the source of his human nature, and that in his human nature he is truly God and truly man. This has led to disagreement between Catholics and Protestants.

Marianism describes the excessive veneration of Mary, as opposed to Christ. The term was first used in the 19th century to condemn the "perversion of Christianity into Marianism."

Praying to Mary and the Saints

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses,

Rom 15:30, ", help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more, "
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us, "
Jam 5:16, ", and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 ", that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints, "

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 ", and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, ", and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Now the next question is, 'Yes, but it is repetitious (the Rosary) and that is forbidden by scripture'. (Mt 6:7)

OK, look at the entries listed above which have the asterisk (*) in front of them.

Are not Col 1:9, "This is why we have been praying for you unceasingly, ", 1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more, ", and 2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you, ", repetitious? Is this one of those so called 'Bible Conflicts' you hear about from time to time?

No, not at all. The answer is that the Bible refers to two types of prayer repetition 'Vain', in the manner of heathens, and 'Useful', NOT in the manner of heathens.

The Rosary is not vain repetition. Here is a list of some in each category that you can check in your Bible.

(V) 1King 18:25-29, (U) Isa 6:3, (U) Dan 3:52-90, (V) *Mt 6:7, (U) Mt *26:44, (U) *Lk 6:12, (U) Lk 18:1,9-14,*21:36, (U)*Col 1:9, (U) 1Thes 3:10,5:17, (U) *Jam 5:16, (U) **Rev 4:8

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The Scriptures tell us that we pray to God through Jesus in the Holy Spirit -- this is Saint Paul's great insight into the nature of specifically Christian prayer.

Theologically, Catholics believe that if our prayer is directed to God the Father, we are simultaneously praying to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; if our prayer is directed primarily to Jesus, we are simultaneously praying to the Father and to the Spirit; and if our prayer is directed primarily to the Holy Spirit we are also praying to the Father and the Son.

Since the Holy Trinity is a divine community of Persons, prayer directed to One of the divine Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- reaches the other divine Persons; the Father shares everything with the Son and the Spirit; the Son shares everything with the Father and the Spirit; the Holy Spirit shares everything with the Father and the Son.

So, yes, Catholics pray to Jesus as the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity.

The more difficult part of your question -- especially from a Protestant point of view -- is why Catholics also pray to Mary.

We have many ways, as Catholics, of talking about this aspect of our prayer.

To be a Christian means, among other things, accepting Jesus into your life. Mary literally accepted Jesus into her life for when she said "Yes!" to the archangel's invitation and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, Jesus made His home in her womb. So, for Catholics Mary is the First Christian, the first human being to accept Jesus Christ into her life.

As the First Christian, she is, so the speak, the Prototype of what being a Christian means. In that role, we Catholics feel that Mary has something like a "first among equals" role as exemplar for us.

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else. When we pray to her, we are, in a sense, asking for her wisdom and insight about how to live our Christian lives more perfectly; since she's already done it, we look to her for example, direction and guidance.

Another way that we Catholics think of our practice of praying to Mary is the following. We are perfectly comfortable as Christians asking other Christians for prayer support when we are confronted by special needs, crises, or stressful circumstances. Calling up a Christian friend and saying, "Please pray for me, I'm going through a really tough time" makes complete sense to us.

Christians also believe that death is not the end of life. Death is a 'door' through which we pass, as we move from one room in our Father's Mansion, the room of this life, to another room in the Lord's House, which is the room of eternal life. The dead in Christ are surely alive!

Mary, as the First Christian, is, then, alive in Christ -- sharing the glory of heaven with her Son and all those to whom God has given eternal life.

So, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply saying that since she is alive in Christ in the glory of heaven, we can go to her, asking for her prayerful support -- in much the same way that we would ask a Christian in our Church community to support us with his or her prayers.

The fact that Mary is alive in life-beyond-death in no way minimizes her ability to pray. In fact, we Catholics would say that since Mary is with her Son, her prayers have a special kind of efficacy and power.

Another way that Catholics talk about praying to Mary builds on the idea of a special bond between a parent and a child, and particularly on the bond between a Mother and her Son. In many human relationships, a mother has a special role in the life of her children. Mary, being such a magnificent mother, and Jesus, being the Perfect Son, surely had a marvelous and ultimately close relationship. When we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply assuming that the closeness between this Mother and her divine Son continues in life-beyond-death, and we are asking this special and wonderful Mother to speak to her beloved and divine Son on our behalf.

A last word about the way Catholics see our prayer to Mary: When we pray to Mary, we Catholics are, essentially, saying, "Blessed Mary, you are living in the very Presence of God, would you please take my request, my prayer, and put it before God Who chose you to be the Mother of His Son?" We are acknowledging that, as the Bible says, all generations call her "blessed" precisely because God offered her a unique role as the Mother of Jesus and because she accepted God's invitation. That intimacy which Mary had with God continues in the glory of heaven. When we Catholics pray to her, we are simply saying, "Please ask God to hear our prayers now, and at the hour of our death!"

Does a Catholic HAVE to pray to Mary? No, we don't HAVE to pray to Mary. But, praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Catholic Church has to offer us -- so why in the world wouldn't we accept this magnificent gift?!? While we don't have to pray to Mary, most Catholics WANT to pray to her because she is special to God, special to God's Son, and she, therefore, very special to us! We never 'worship' Mary -- "worship" is what we give to God alone. But we do have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman!

Protestants could then say, in effect, "even though our beliefs conflict at every turn, and therefore cannot really be true, just look at the even GREATER untruths that exist in Catholicism! Therefore we are in a better place." This argument is about as close as any Protestant can come to justifying the plague of denominations which the original Protestant rebellion spawned, in direct opposition to the will of Christ, Who stated His divine intent that all Christians would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Protestants therefore do not wage their attacks on traditional Christian truth out of spite or hatred, or even jealousy, but rather out of a desperate quest for a legitimacy which is objectively lacking in their religious tradition. The bizarre accusations they bring against God's Church - worshipping statues, making human beings equal to God, adopting pagan beliefs, etc. might possibly legitimize such a rebellion, if any of it were true.

Thanks for your question; hope this helps some.

You must be incredibly dense. Not only do you repost the same crap, you still have the same problems.

chrisd:

Praying to Mary and the Saints

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

So, the Psalm 103 you quoted says this:
1) Bless the Lord - this is directed at angels
2) Bless all his hosts which are his ministers who do his will

This does not say that angels in heaven pray for us. It says that David wants angels to pray for us. It does not mean that they actually do so.

Your quote from Psalm 148:
1) It says to praise the lord, his angels, and his hosts.

This says NOTHING about prayer!

chrisd:
In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

You are assuming where it says "saints" in Rev 5:8, it is talking about people on earth.

chrisd:

Angels do the same thing: "An angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Maybe you misread this. It says and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God This means that the paryers of the saints were already there, and the angel had nothing to do with it. So, NO, it does not say that angels offer up our prayers or prayers of anyone.

chrisd:

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

What does this have to do with praying to people?

chrisd:

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

Nobody disagrees with this.

chrisd:

I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses,

Rom 15:30, ", help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more, "
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us, "
Jam 5:16, ", and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 ", that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints, "

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

While it may seem foolish to talk to a dead person and ask them to pray for you, nobody is saying there is anything wrong with that. So, yes, you can ASK mary to PRAY for you. You cannot PRAY TO mary. BIIIG difference.

And no, it does not stand to reason that God will grant her requests. That is utter foolishness.

chrisd:

He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

That you could draw that conclusion is astounding. I suppose that if I was someplace, and you saw some woman say, they have no wine, and I goto the store and bring wine, you would conclude that I have been subject to her and she has influence over me.

I don't see how a human being can have influence over God. That's like saying your dog has influence over you. Utter foolishness.

chrisd:

Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 ", and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, ", and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Sorry, you can fool yourself all you want. If you are praying to mary, you are an idolater. Just like if I was petitioning the dollar bill to save me.

chrisd:

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The Scriptures tell us that we pray to God through Jesus in the Holy Spirit -- this is Saint Paul's great insight into the nature of specifically Christian prayer.

Theologically, Catholics believe that if our prayer is directed to God the Father, we are simultaneously praying to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; if our prayer is directed primarily to Jesus, we are simultaneously praying to the Father and to the Spirit; and if our prayer is directed primarily to the Holy Spirit we are also praying to the Father and the Son.

Since the Holy Trinity is a divine community of Persons, prayer directed to One of the divine Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- reaches the other divine Persons; the Father shares everything with the Son and the Spirit; the Son shares everything with the Father and the Spirit; the Holy Spirit shares everything with the Father and the Son.

So, yes, Catholics pray to Jesus as the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity.

The more difficult part of your question -- especially from a Protestant point of view -- is why Catholics also pray to Mary.

We have many ways, as Catholics, of talking about this aspect of our prayer.

To be a Christian means, among other things, accepting Jesus into your life. Mary literally accepted Jesus into her life for when she said "Yes!" to the archangel's invitation and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, Jesus made His home in her womb. So, for Catholics Mary is the First Christian, the first human being to accept Jesus Christ into her life.

As the First Christian, she is, so the speak, the Prototype of what being a Christian means. In that role, we Catholics feel that Mary has something like a "first among equals" role as exemplar for us.

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else. When we pray to her, we are, in a sense, asking for her wisdom and insight about how to live our Christian lives more perfectly; since she's already done it, we look to her for example, direction and guidance.

Another way that we Catholics think of our practice of praying to Mary is the following. We are perfectly comfortable as Christians asking other Christians for prayer support when we are confronted by special needs, crises, or stressful circumstances. Calling up a Christian friend and saying, "Please pray for me, I'm going through a really tough time" makes complete sense to us.

Christians also believe that death is not the end of life. Death is a 'door' through which we pass, as we move from one room in our Father's Mansion, the room of this life, to another room in the Lord's House, which is the room of eternal life. The dead in Christ are surely alive!

Mary, as the First Christian, is, then, alive in Christ -- sharing the glory of heaven with her Son and all those to whom God has given eternal life.

So, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply saying that since she is alive in Christ in the glory of heaven, we can go to her, asking for her prayerful support -- in much the same way that we would ask a Christian in our Church community to support us with his or her prayers.

The fact that Mary is alive in life-beyond-death in no way minimizes her ability to pray. In fact, we Catholics would say that since Mary is with her Son, her prayers have a special kind of efficacy and power.

Another way that Catholics talk about praying to Mary builds on the idea of a special bond between a parent and a child, and particularly on the bond between a Mother and her Son. In many human relationships, a mother has a special role in the life of her children. Mary, being such a magnificent mother, and Jesus, being the Perfect Son, surely had a marvelous and ultimately close relationship. When we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply assuming that the closeness between this Mother and her divine Son continues in life-beyond-death, and we are asking this special and wonderful Mother to speak to her beloved and divine Son on our behalf.

A last word about the way Catholics see our prayer to Mary: When we pray to Mary, we Catholics are, essentially, saying, "Blessed Mary, you are living in the very Presence of God, would you please take my request, my prayer, and put it before God Who chose you to be the Mother of His Son?" We are acknowledging that, as the Bible says, all generations call her "blessed" precisely because God offered her a unique role as the Mother of Jesus and because she accepted God's invitation. That intimacy which Mary had with God continues in the glory of heaven. When we Catholics pray to her, we are simply saying, "Please ask God to hear our prayers now, and at the hour of our death!"

Does a Catholic HAVE to pray to Mary? No, we don't HAVE to pray to Mary. But, praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Catholic Church has to offer us -- so why in the world wouldn't we accept this magnificent gift?!? While we don't have to pray to Mary, most Catholics WANT to pray to her because she is special to God, special to God's Son, and she, therefore, very special to us! We never 'worship' Mary -- "worship" is what we give to God alone. But we do have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman!

Protestants could then say, in effect, "even though our beliefs conflict at every turn, and therefore cannot really be true, just look at the even GREATER untruths that exist in Catholicism! Therefore we are in a better place." This argument is about as close as any Protestant can come to justifying the plague of denominations which the original Protestant rebellion spawned, in direct opposition to the will of Christ, Who stated His divine intent that all Christians would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Protestants therefore do not wage their attacks on traditional Christian truth out of spite or hatred, or even jealousy, but rather out of a desperate quest for a legitimacy which is objectively lacking in their religious tradition. The bizarre accusations they bring against God's Church - worshipping statues, making human beings equal to God, adopting pagan beliefs, etc. might possibly legitimize such a rebellion, if any of it were true.

Thanks for your question; hope this helps some.

Unfortunately, this makes many assumptions, such as that mary is in heaven and is able to talk to God. Though I suppose, the Catholic chuch, once it says that Mary is in heaven and so is peter and benedict, then you'all feel you have a license to pray to them.

Further, it is NOT supported by the bible, which makes it even more ridiculous.

Ridiculuos you and your protestanism.

allonym,

One day God will open Chrisd's eyes and soften his heart to the one and only true Gospel of Jesus Christ ( as it is written in the Bible). It is great that you have planted a seed of faith with him, God will water it. God knows how to save people. Look what he did with Saul who became Paul.

The Bible so clearly disagrees with Chrisd's beliefs. I hope he will understand the Bible before it is too late.

He cannot see that the church that he is so sold out won't be able to save him when it is too late. All that man made doctrine that conflict with scripture, can not save anyone. You will notice that the Pope recently announced that purgatory is no longer a doctrine they will promote.

Thanks for not being afraid to share the love of Christ!! So many people are compromising the gospel to be politically correct and spare people's feelings.

And be one of those who uses one of your protestant Bible that has 10 parts of the Bible removed. No way

You see, as fellow believers in Christ, we have great access to the Lord God personally, and we can enter into His grand presence because of the great blood of Christ which was shed on the cross.

Eph 2:17-19 When Christ came, He proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God's household.



Are you a fellow believer in Christ? Then you too are a member of God’s household, and have access to the Father.

Hebrews 4:16 Therefore let us approach the throne of grace with boldness, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us at the proper time.

Hebrews 10:19-20 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh);

Ephesians 3:11-12
This is according to the purpose of the ages, which He made in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness, access, and confidence through faith in Him.

John 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Romans 5:2 Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.



Let us rejoice together that the Lord God hears our prayers and answers them!

1 John 5:14-15 Now this is the confidence we have before Him: whenever we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears whatever we ask, we know that we have what we have asked Him for.

chrisd:

And be one of those who uses one of your protestant Bible that has 10 parts of the Bible removed. No way

And what parts are removed. . please name them. I have more to say on this, but it's best in the context of your response.

the apocrypha,
google it
i can only remember
tobias
susannah
baruch
maccabees
wisdom, lovely book

lol, who complied this bible, was it not the catholic church?

when the vatican make this announcement that they would stop promoting purgatory, even if they did? ehen? they didnt say they were removing it as doctrine, perhaps some ppl were looking at purgatory and doing their minimum best to get there instead of aiming for heaven

finally, all this 'it is not in the bible' does not hold water, because the catholic church does not believe in sola scriptura, it also believes in tradition. it maintains that the peter was the first pope and thus the church has existed since peter. also when the church provides evidence from the bible and interprets it in a certain way, who are you to come and say 'that is not what it means' lol, are you God what makes your own interpretation more valid

Good comments gigitte

gigitte:

finally, all this 'it is not in the bible' does not hold water, because the catholic church does not believe in sola scriptura, it also believes in tradition.

This is interesting in so far as you can provide a rational basis for your own position as better than the Protestant persuasion. People may have different interpretations of the Bible (and other 'holy books' of the various faiths in the world), but I'd like to ask a question: why is it that as a Catholic or orthodox, chrisd takes it upon himself to hate fellow Christians? I have read his threads where he has used words like 'bastards' and 'pentecostals wacks' to belch out the hate in his heart towards Christians, and he feels cool about it. It does not matter what his interpretation of the Bible is, but is John 15:12 & 17 not in his own Catholic version of the Bible with 10 x 10 books? Since the Catholic church does not believe in sola scriptura but holds to traditions as well, is hate part of that tradition that someone like chrisd would use language like that and still claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ?

gigitte:

the catholic church does not believe in sola scriptura, it also believes in tradition. it maintains that the peter was the first pope and thus the church has existed since peter. also when the church provides evidence from the bible and interprets it in a certain way, who are you to come and say 'that is not what it means' , are you God what makes your own interpretation more valid

I'd be happy if you can quote me a few verses that clearly calls Peter the first pope of the Church. Since nobody's interpretation is valid than your own version as a Catholic, please don't try to interpret anything - just give me the direct quote in the Catholic Bible (including the 10 remaining books) where the word "Pope" was used as a title for Peter in the early Christian Church.

I been to pentecostal churches, and most of them it's just about showing off. All the pastor talks about is money, talking in tongues and acting like lunatics or a rock concert and fornication. So I returned to Catholic church. And many of them are opinionated, mainly comes from the pastor. My lady was pentecostal and was leading prayer meetings and cell groups. They kicked her out once they found out I'm a Catholic. The pastor said he'll better be Muslim than a Catholic. Does that make sense.

chrisd,

You did not address my question. I wanted a direct quote from gigitte in the Catholic Bible with the 10 books where the word "Pope" was used as a direct title for Peter in the Church. No tradition, no interpretation - just one verse in your own Catholic Bible.

@choice.A

do not make the mistake of projecting either yourself or chrisd on me, wetin consain me with you and him wahala?? if the man has had bad experiences with prostestant church, that is him and from ive seen of his postings, i feel for him too, how will a church be treating another church like leper, those ppl are also exhibiting hatre. if you have question for him, he is here, ask him!

as per the quote on peter being the pope, pope simply means father, or something along those lines, so in essence peter was the first father of the church,

i will not quote, but the relevant passages
when jesus asked peter such and such times 'do you love me' and asked if he would take care of his flock and peter agreed
when jesus said to peter, you are my rock and on you i will build my church or something like that sha, i dont have my bibeli with me right now

in return also quote for me where they said women should not wear trousizz to church lol.
also quote for me where they said gay marriage should not be sanctioned by law, not by the church oh, by law
also quote for me where they said wearing earrings and such is wrong
you see all these things are extrapolations and interpretations too.

all this your 'no tradition, no intepretation' does not hold water with me, i simply tried to let you see that the church draws evidence from both the bible and how it interpretes it as well church tradition. i did not say you must to agree, after all for you to argue with someone, you must understand the other persons arguments and the premise of that argument

i NEVER said in any of my postings that only the catholic church's interpretations are valid, i asked 'what makes your interpretation more valid' i am just saying that no one can say my intepretation is wrong just like that, b/c as far as i am concerned, they are not God.

lastly, there were many books written about the life and times of JC, some were heresy many were not, the essence of choosing the books that make the bible is thru discernment, which ones help us with our spiritual journey in life, if it doesnt help, it dont need to be in the bible, but that does not mean it is not relevant for other things, this is why sola scriptura is such a dangerous concept, ppl make it seem as tho nothing else survived from the time of christ, not true

@chrisd, ash wednesday is here oh! what are you doing for lent

gigitte,

Predictably, you disappoint me. Since you challenge the protestant interpretation of the Bible and no one's interpretation is more valid than yours, I only asked you to quote one reference from your Catholic Bible, and all you came up with is this lame excuse?

In return, I would gladly have quoted the references from the Bible you asked concerning gay marriages, wearing of earrings and women wearing trousers - if only I made reference to them in my reply earlier. Since I did not, I don't owe you zit on that.

As for chrisd, whatever his palava and your sympathy for him, his experiences do not give him the license to bad-mouth fellow Christians. Perhaps, a lot of believers have been patient with him up until now, but if he has made it his prerogative to continue the use of sorry language on fellow Christians, he should realise that there's a limit to tolerance on that.

choice.A:

gigitte,

Since you challenge the protestant interpretation of the Bible and no one's interpretation is more valid than yours,

dont put words in my mouth, thank you
chrisd not = gigitte, talk to him
i will get my bible and give you those quotes
lol, maybe we will begin to argue about translation then lol

till then

chrisd:

I been to pentecostal churches, and most of them it's just about showing off. All the pastor talks about is money, talking in tongues and acting like lunatics or a rock concert and fornication. So I returned to Catholic church. And many of them are opinionated, mainly comes from the pastor. My lady was pentecostal and was leading prayer meetings and cell groups. They kicked her out once they found out I'm a Catholic. The pastor said he'll better be Muslim than a Catholic. Does that make sense.

chrisd, when you make accusations like this, you're asking for more than you can swallow. I don't mean to offend anyone here (especially Catholics), but was it so long ago to have escaped your memory that the Catholic Church was involved in sex scandal? (You can find samplers here: http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/response/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_priests'_sex_abuse_scandal).

You don't have any substance in what you're posting as far as I'm concerned. Just because your wife got kicked out of her local pentecostal church does not mean that every pentecostal church is as evil as the image you're trying to establish. Your own version of Catholic Christianity is your personal cappuccino and should not become the launching pad for your virulent attacks on other Christians.

bari_kade:

chrisd, but was it so long ago to have escaped your memory that the Catholic Church was involved in sex scandal? (You can find samplers here: http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/response/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_priests'_sex_abuse_scandal).

i too dey laugh lol

Put words in your mouth about what? So, tell me, what is the meaning of this that you posted?

gigitte:

also when the church provides evidence from the bible and interprets it in a certain way, who are you to come and say 'that is not what it means' , are you God what makes your own interpretation more valid

Did that not sound like you were challenging the interpretations of others? If you didn't expect a response to your post, you didn't need to have had that line in your earlier reply.

I'm not interested in arguments of any sort - translation or otherwise. For one, if you're asked to make a direct quote for whatever you'll be posting, I don't want to be disappointed over and over again with your tradition. So, many thanks. I'd rather be occupied with inputs that make sense.

bari_kade, I'm sorry that you posted those links for the scandals in the Catholic church. I'd advise that you don't let the accusations of some 'Christians' push you to the wall. Anyhow, that is just my opinion: it's not helping the case for building faith. I do hope, however, that chrisd would be more rational in future posts.

sorry choice.A - I thought you were not Catholic? I didn't mean to offend, but it was becoming awkward of chrisd to go on forever with his hate speech and making reference to how evil the pentecostal or protestant churches are, simply because of his marriage problem. The truth is there for all to see - if people who claim to be following Christ begin to go contrary to His teachings in the Bible, we are not under obligation to remain there; but we can go to other churches where people have respect for God's word. I know that not all Catholic priests were involved in the sex scandal; and in the same way, not all pentecostal churches are as 'lunatic' as chrisd wants everyone to believe. Again, I apologise if anyone got offended.

bari_kade,

No, I'm not a Catholic; but then I agree with you that not every Catholic priest was involved in some of the unfortunate incidents in Catholic history. chrisd might not have a marriage problem as such, but all these issues have been borne out of personal grievance against non-Catholic Christians on baseless grounds. I hope we can all have a sense of mutual respect for one another; and I apologise where my statements might inadvertently have been offensive.

@choice.A
my experience has been that whenever i am asked for proof of something such as purgatory, and i point out bible verses, i often get 'that is not that verse means'.
the emphatic word in the posting you quoted is 'more' valid
if we are both christians, supposedly schooled in the Word, so who is Bleep to come and tell me that that is not what so and so particular verse means. he is not God, so as equal human beings, what makes his own interpretation more valid? that is my question
finally, in no place did i say my own interpretation was more valid than Bleep, because i have never said to so and so, you are wrong and i am right, after all i dont run around defending purgatory, it was Bleep who came to me
i hope you see what i am trying to get at now, in summary i was not challenging the interpretations of others, i was challenging their right to assert that their interpretation is more valid than mine

gigitte:

are you God what makes your own interpretation more valid

This is a great question. Answer, NO, I am not God. My interpretation is not more valid. However, it also means that my interpretation is just as valid as anyone else's. Especially when all of my arguments are logical and based on the bible and don't require introducing laws that some group of men decided to make up a few hundred years ago. This means that my interpretation is just as good as the pope or my pastor. To be honest. . well. . .i'll just keep this to myself.

So, a group of people decided to recognize peter as the first pope. . . . ok. . and if I recognize peter as the first idiot. . what sort of authority does that give me over idiots? Just because some group of people decided to AFTER HIS DEATH induct Peter into their circle does not make it right. Just because they have decided what goes into the bible and what doesnt. . .have changed the so called laws of the church countless times over the centuries does not make them right. If anything, it shows just how fallible they are and gives me more reason to stick to my views which would probably be unchanged.

A lot of the theological arguments today are just not even worth it. Just look at how many different and new versions of the bible pop into existence each year. I'm betting that within my lifetime, a large part of the "current" bible will be noticeably different from the King James Version which I was raised on.

bari_kade:

chrisd, when you make accusations like this, you're asking for more than you can swallow. I don't mean to offend anyone here (especially Catholics), but was it so long ago to have escaped your memory that the Catholic Church was involved in sex scandal? (You can find samplers here: http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/response/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_priests'_sex_abuse_scandal).

You don't have any substance in what you're posting as far as I'm concerned. Just because your wife got kicked out of her local pentecostal church does not mean that every pentecostal church is as evil as the image you're trying to establish. Your own version of Catholic Christianity is your personal cappuccino and should not become the launching pad for your virulent attacks on other Christians.

Well said.

Gigitte, if the Bible can be interpreted out of context any way you want to support doctrines that disagree with the 10 commandments and the teachings of Jesus,

Gigitte, how do you feel about cults like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses interpreting the Bible their way. Does it mean they are Christians too. Remember Christian means follower of Christ. Mormons believe Jesus is the brother of Satan and that God was a mere mortal who worked his way up to Deity. they also believe Joseph Smith was the final prophet a teacher superior to Jesus. Does their interpretation qualify them as followers of Christ (Christians)? The Jehovah's Witlessness also have their Watchtower inspired interpretation of the Bible are they followers of Christ (Christians) too?

How loose should this meaning follower of Christs (Christian) be. Can you take the Bible verses out of context and teach anything you want and still be a Christian. How can you say you are a follower of Jesus without folowing him?

That means I can start a cult where everyone prays to me and have sighting of me all over the world. My followers will have alters set up with my statue etc. Will we still be Christians, even though my teaching contradict the Bible? How can we be considered followers of Christ when we go against the teachings of Christ?

Chrisd, giving a tithe is a teaching that come straight out of the Bible. There are 34 verses in the Bible that teaches tithing. What is the problem with tithing. How will the Churches pay their bills? Will their bills be paid by miracles? How will they support missionaries etc.?

@jclord, err when did i say that you can take verses that you can interpret anything in the bible out of context
please quote me on this, if you can

by the way, don't people do that when they say women should not wear trousers to church (im not saying you said this oh) after all, who knows if the israelites in the days of leviticus wore trousers

which practices did i mention are against the teaching of christ and the ten commandments

again i said nothing about jehovah's witnesses and mormons, these peeps came long after the bible was established and after JC had been established as the last messenger from God. if the jehovah witnesses want to have their own bible, that is their cup of tea, after all don't you have your own bible?

Gigitte,

One of the many examples of scripture being taken out of context to support doctrines that disagree with the the 10 Commandments and the teachings of Jesus, is praying to Mary and Saints. Remember that Jesus never prayed to anyone other than to his father in Heaven.



You did not metion the Mormons nor the Jehovah's Witnesses, I used them as an example of cults who have rewritten the bible to support their beliefs but still call themselves Christians. These people still consider themselve Christians even though their teachings go against the the teachings of Jesus Christ. Remember Christian means follower of Christ.

Gigitte
Read the Bible for yourself and you will see that your Church is teaching doctrine that contradicts the the teachings of Christ and the entire Bible.

@jclord

im sure you've heard it many times, we do NOT pray to mary and the saints, we ask them to intercede, which means to pray for us, and im sure you've heard the apologetics of this many many times so i wont rehash it, if you continue to believe that catholic church asks people to pray to mary and the saints, that is strictly your own cup of tea. just because some people attach more importance to intercessory prayer and veer dangerously close to actually praying to mary and the saints doesnt not mean that that is what the catholic church preaches.

you have no problem in asking your brothers and sisters to pray for you, but you have a problem with people in heaven doing the same, 'the mind boggles'

, why should jesus ask anyone to intercede for him? he is the son of God so it doesnt really make any sense for him to do that, esp since he is one with God and the Holy Spirit as God and the Holy Spirit are one with him, for those of us not fortunate to be part of the trinity, we need all the help we can get

furthermore, the catholic church was indispensible in assembling that bible you hold so dear, not only that they also translated it and made sure it stayed in circulation. they could have made it say anything they wanted, so stop biting the hand that fed you, no one is asking you to agree with the church or join, just respect and leave well alone

@Gigitte
According to the Bible Jesus is our only intercessor in heaven.

It is quite sad to see people believing false teachings. I hope you will read your Bible to learn for youself the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

Read Mathew 6 and 7 to get the instruction from Jesus on how to pray. I hope you will find your way to the truth before it is too late.


Yes Jesus is one with God the Father but he still prayed to God the Father while he lived on earth and he did not pray to his mother a dead priest nor a dead nun.

Your Church does instruct people to pray to Mary and Saints. I have seen Priests giving this advice many times on the Church's TV stations here in the US. You know that this is true. Where in the Bible does it say ask Mary to intercede for you? Why all the statues and alters to Mary? Some of these alters have money and food on it like the Hindus. Why does your church advertise to get people to pray to dead nuns like Mother Theresa. I have seen billboard ads on the streets in NY promoting the idea of prayers to Mother Theresa. Your Church's response to this question is what you and Chrisd's repeat over and over and it does not seem to be a well thought out answer.

I will take a break from this subject. I have said all I have to say for now. I have done what I am required to do based on the Bible.

jclord:

Chrisd, giving a tithe is a teaching that come straight out of the Bible. There are 34 verses in the Bible that teaches tithing. What is the problem with tithing. How will the Churches pay their bills? Will their bills be paid by miracles? How will they support missionaries etc.?

Tithing does not come straight out of the bible.

There are no levites to which I have to tithe. Therefore, tithing should no longer be a factor, not even for israelites.