Gezz! whats eating u up

nferyn:

I have the distinct impression that, even though I don't believe, my walk in life is much closer to the true spirit of Jesus' teachings that many of you Bible thumping, intolerant religious bigots. To all of you - and those to whom it applies will know - your religion is just a dark cloak to hide your venom.

Just call them pretenders. Fake of no origin

Eddy Tells:

Gezz! whats eating u up

The only thing I'm intolerant about is intolerance. Live and let live, you know. This whole thing turned into a pointless exercise of Catholic bashing. Even though the Catholics over here have expressed their opinion over why they are (or are not) born again, you zealously continue in your anti-Catholic quest. The fact that this does not satisfy you only shows that you cannot really accept people having different opinions.

This is no longer about the content of the topic.

its good to know that you can be intolerant too.............ohh wait a minute, ur not a christain.
I guess intolerance is a non christain virtue. This thread is far from being a catholic bashing thread.

I believe that pple tell others what they want to hear and until u push them to the wall, u really never get what's actually in their mind. I started this thread cos i wanted to know. And i'd do anything and everything to know. Its free for everyone to make a comment and if i disagree with comment, i dont see any problem with that. If you cant stand it.........Your bad!!!!!

By the way, you didnt have to be this rude

[ many of you Bible thumping, intolerant religious bigots./quote]

Eddy Tells, I really don't know what you're trying to cause here. Some Catholics here have admitted to be born again while one of them said he's not. What else do you want to know?

...................................

Eddy Tells:

its good to know that you can be intolerant too.............ohh wait a minute, your not a christain.
I guess intolerance is a non christain virtue. This thread is far from being a catholic bashing thread.

Right, why not try some rhetorical tricks if all else fails.
1. Being intolerant of intolerance means that I'm not accepting intolerance in any form, not that I do not tolerate other people's beliefs.
2. An instance of intolerance by a member of a group (and even that is false) does not mean that the group is the flagship of intolerance
3. The thread stared out as a discussion, the only reason you can have to perpetuate it, is Catholic bashing

Eddy Tells:

I believe that people tell others what they want to hear and until u push them to the wall, u really never get what's actually in their mind. I started this thread because i wanted to know. And i'd do anything and everything to know. Its free for everyone to make a comment and if i disagree with comment, i don't see any problem with that. If you can't stand it.........Your bad!!!!!

That's a weird way of discussing. Why not use the Socratic method and continue asking [i]why [/i]instead of repeating the same mantra over and over again. This would be a more fruitful approach.

Eddy Tells:

By the way, you didnt have to be this rude

Actually, those words were not directly intended for you, your position falls short of that description (but maybe you'll get there one day ) I could have posted it in another thread as well.

You all shd just drop it already

lioness:

You all should just drop it already

Ok, I'm going to be good and do what you ask

Okay................me too

History will always repeat itself[43.63] And when  Jesus came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me
[61.6] And when Jesus son of Mariam said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and[b] giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad,[/b] but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
Be Born Against Christ teaching for NAIRA sake is the other of the day.Catholics Believes that Being Born Again are Protestant  acts. Psychological in balance and abnormal behavior

Fucking nuts u are!!!!

[Hnd-holder
Insert Quote
History will always repeat itself[43.63] And when Jesus came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me
[61.6] And when Jesus son of Mariam said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.
Be Born Against Christ teaching for NAIRA sake is the other of the day.Catholics Believes that Being Born Again are Protestant acts. Psychological in balance and abnormal behavior/quote]

Most catholics are misunderstood. There are a lot of people who are truly committed. Of course, everyone has certain rituals in church of how services are conducted. I see no big problem if people use candles or incense. Incense was used in the early churches and also is mentioned in the bible when it was used in worship. I don't feel it is a requirement. As with all things, there exist catholics who are not truly for God at all. About sleeping around, it is a matter of the moral principles of the individual,, and goes against all teachings of the catholic church and of most other churches. There are catholics who do that and that is wrong. Well, I know of pentecostals that are and act like that too, but that does not mean pentecostals are hypocrites. As for speaking in tongues, I think one should be a bit careful of false prophets, and one should think very carefully, in orderly manner as Paul says and if one cannot interpret he should shut up.

That's only my thinking.

Nice post, chrisd

nferyn:

Ok, I'm going to be good and do what you ask

funny how some of the most unchristian people are christians. . .

allonym:

funny how some of the most unchristian people are christians. . .

Now you do have to explain that. I am at a loss

nferyn:

Now you do have to explain that. I am at a loss

that was not directed at you nferyn, but rather at some of those responding to your posts.

Let's say thing straight here.

I will talk about the Catholic practice of asking Mary, saints and angels to pray for us. The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21).

And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:Cool. Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

Jesus himself warned us not to mess with small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

I would be willing to bet they do not even examine the prayers we use to 'petition' Mary. Have you ever heard of the word 'intercession'? It is when we ask someone to pray for us. Lets look at a few Bible verses...

Rom 15:30, "...help me by your prayers to GOD for me."
Col 1:9, "This is why we too have been praying for you unceasingly."
1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more..."
2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you."
2Thes 3:1, "In conclusion brethren, pray for us..."
Jam 5:16, "...and pray for one another that you may be saved."
Rev 8:3-4 "...that he may offer it with the prayers of all the saints..."

The Bible is asking you to pray for one another. Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever told someone you will pray for them? Why then, when the name of Mary is introduced, is it not to be asked of her? Was she not a created being like all the rest of us? Why can we ask everyone else to pray for us, but we can't ask it of Mary? Does it not stand to reason that her Son would listen to her and grant her requests?

He turned water into wine at Cana just by Mary making a remark, "They have no wine", Jn 2:3. He was subjected to her in Lk 2:51, and no doubt for many years until His ministry started at age 30. He listens to her now, just as He did then. She must have a lot more influence with Him than any of us do, since she is His mother.

Let us see what Catholics pray.

Have you ever listened to the words of the most used Marian prayer of all, the Hail Mary?

*** "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee." ***
This is nothing more than the salutation of Gabriel in Luke 1:28.

*** "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)." ***
That is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary in Lk 1:42.

***"Holy Mary, mother of GOD." ***
She is a saint which makes her holy, and she is the Mother of GOD, because Elizabeth calls her the 'Mother of Our Lord' in Lk 1:43. Also if you take Jn 1:1 "...and the Word was GOD', and add it to Jn 1:14, "...and the Word was made flesh", GOD was made flesh, and who was His mother? Mary!

*** "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen." ***
This is nothing more than petitioning Mary to PRAY FOR US, just like in the Bible verses I presented. Do we 'pray to' Mary, or are we only petitioning her to pray for us?

Now the next question is, 'Yes, but it is repetitious (the Rosary) and that is forbidden by scripture'. (Mt 6:7)

OK, look at the entries listed above which have the asterisk (*) in front of them.

Are not Col 1:9, "This is why we have been praying for you unceasingly...", 1Thes 3:10, "Night and day we pray more and more...", and 2Thes 1:11, "To this end we pray always for you...", repetitious? Is this one of those so called 'Bible Conflicts' you hear about from time to time?

No, not at all. The answer is that the Bible refers to two types of prayer repetition 'Vain', in the manner of heathens, and 'Useful', NOT in the manner of heathens.

The Rosary is not vain repetition. Here is a list of some in each category that you can check in your Bible.

(V) 1King 18:25-29, (U) Isa 6:3, (U) Dan 3:52-90, (V) *Mt 6:7, (U) Mt *26:44, (U) *Lk 6:12, (U) Lk 18:1,9-14,*21:36, (U)*Col 1:9, (U) 1Thes 3:10,5:17, (U) *Jam 5:16, (U) **Rev 4:8

One final note:
Many non-Catholics have the false belief that praying to "dead" people is useless. This is a mis-interpretation of what Holy Scripture teaches us, for the Blessed Virgin Mary and others who have gone on before us are not dead but live forever.

The Scriptures tell us that we pray to God through Jesus in the Holy Spirit -- this is Saint Paul's great insight into the nature of specifically Christian prayer.

Theologically, Catholics believe that if our prayer is directed to God the Father, we are simultaneously praying to the Son and to the Holy Spirit; if our prayer is directed primarily to Jesus, we are simultaneously praying to the Father and to the Spirit; and if our prayer is directed primarily to the Holy Spirit we are also praying to the Father and the Son.

Since the Holy Trinity is a divine community of Persons, prayer directed to One of the divine Persons -- Father, Son, Spirit -- reaches the other divine Persons; the Father shares everything with the Son and the Spirit; the Son shares everything with the Father and the Spirit; the Holy Spirit shares everything with the Father and the Son.

So, yes, Catholics pray to Jesus as the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity.

We have many ways, as Catholics, of talking about this aspect of our prayer.

To be a Christian means, among other things, accepting Jesus into your life. Mary literally accepted Jesus into her life for when she said "Yes!" to the archangel's invitation and the Holy Spirit overshadowed her, Jesus made His home in her womb. So, for Catholics Mary is the First Christian, the first human being to accept Jesus Christ into her life.

As the First Christian, she is, so the speak, the Prototype of what being a Christian means. In that role, we Catholics feel that Mary has something like a "first among equals" role as exemplar for us.

So, we Catholics feel very comfortable going to her in prayer for guidance and help since she walked this road of living the Christian life before anybody else. When we pray to her, we are, in a sense, asking for her wisdom and insight about how to live our Christian lives more perfectly; since she's already done it, we look to her for example, direction and guidance.

Another way that we Catholics think of our practice of praying to Mary is the following. We are perfectly comfortable as Christians asking other Christians for prayer support when we are confronted by special needs, crises, or stressful circumstances. Calling up a Christian friend and saying, "Please pray for me, I'm going through a really tough time" makes complete sense to us.

Christians also believe that death is not the end of life. Death is a 'door' through which we pass, as we move from one room in our Father's Mansion, the room of this life, to another room in the Lord's House, which is the room of eternal life. The dead in Christ are surely alive!

Mary, as the First Christian, is, then, alive in Christ -- sharing the glory of heaven with her Son and all those to whom God has given eternal life.

So, when we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply saying that since she is alive in Christ in the glory of heaven, we can go to her, asking for her prayerful support -- in much the same way that we would ask a Christian in our Church community to support us with his or her prayers.

The fact that Mary is alive in life-beyond-death in no way minimizes her ability to pray. In fact, we Catholics would say that since Mary is with her Son, her prayers have a special kind of efficacy and power.

Another way that Catholics talk about praying to Mary builds on the idea of a special bond between a parent and a child, and particularly on the bond between a Mother and her Son. In many human relationships, a mother has a special role in the life of her children. Mary, being such a magnificent mother, and Jesus, being the Perfect Son, surely had a marvelous and ultimately close relationship. When we Catholics pray to Mary, we are simply assuming that the closeness between this Mother and her divine Son continues in life-beyond-death, and we are asking this special and wonderful Mother to speak to her beloved and divine Son on our behalf.

A last word about the way Catholics see our prayer to Mary: When we pray to Mary, we Catholics are, essentially, saying, "Blessed Mary, you are living in the very Presence of God, would you please take my request, my prayer, and put it before God Who chose you to be the Mother of His Son?" We are acknowledging that, as the Bible says, all generations call her "blessed" precisely because God offered her a unique role as the Mother of Jesus and because she accepted God's invitation. That intimacy which Mary had with God continues in the glory of heaven. When we Catholics pray to her, we are simply saying, "Please ask God to hear our prayers now...and at the hour of our death!"

Does a Catholic HAVE to pray to Mary? No, we don't HAVE to pray to Mary. But, praying to Mary is one of the greatest gifts the Catholic Church has to offer us -- so why in the world wouldn't we accept this magnificent gift?!? While we don't have to pray to Mary, most Catholics WANT to pray to her because she is special to God, special to God's Son, and she, therefore, very special to us! We never 'worship' Mary -- "worship" is what we give to God alone. But we do have a very deep love and a very high regard for this blessed woman!

Sometimes, when we pray to Mary, we talk to her. Sometimes, when we pray to Mary, we just think about her and her Son. When we use the Rosary, ...

Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Is it not better to pray directly to God? Why do we call Mary the Mother of God and not the Mother of Jesus? ...

Protestants could then say, in effect, "even though our beliefs conflict at every turn, and therefore cannot really be true, just look at the even GREATER untruths that exist in Catholicism! Therefore we are in a better place." This argument is about as close as any Protestant can come to justifying the plague of denominations which the original Protestant rebellion spawned, in direct opposition to the will of Christ, Who stated His divine intent that all Christians would be ONE, even as He and His Father are ONE. Protestants therefore do not wage their attacks on traditional Christian truth out of spite or hatred, or even jealousy, but rather out of a desperate quest for a legitimacy which is objectively lacking in their religious tradition. The bizarre accusations they bring against God's Church - worshipping statues, making human beings equal to God, adopting pagan beliefs, etc. might possibly legitimize such a rebellion, if any of it were true.

Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. ...

Chrisd, I understand that you are sharing what you have been taught. However, when you read the Bible you will see for yourself that these scriptures referenced in this prayer that you love to post are taken out of context. When the angel said hail Mary full of grace he was not saying this was God's instruction how to pray. Jesus gave instructions on how to pray in Mathew 6 and Mathew 7. We are instructed by Jesus to use these scriptures as an example for structuring our prayers. He is not telling us we have to repeat them as our only prayer. This instruction did not include praying to Mary, a dead priest nor Mother Teresa.

Eddy Tells keep fighting the good fight of faith!!

Here the elighted protestant know it all. You just interpret it your way. You ask people to pray for you, yet if mention of Mary is made you get all bleeped up fatty.

Eddy, your question had since been answered, before now. So quit.

FYI, I'm not a ROMAN CATHOLIC, but u're pushing this too far.

chrisd:

Here the elighted protestant know it all. You just interpret it your way. You ask people to pray for you, yet if mention of Mary is made you get all bleeped up fatty.

Umm, i read you previous post. Nowhere do you qoute any scripture where we are told to ask other people to pray for us.

Your stance, (well really, the catholic stance has a lot of problems)

1) You say prayers to Mary or other saints

- Nowhere in the bible does it mention that we should pray to anyone other than God. Further, praying to something other than God is defined in the bible as idolatry.

2) You say it is the same as asking someone to pray for me.

- When I ask John to pray for me, I don't go home, get on my kness and say, "I pray to you John to intercede on my behalf with God". Instead, I call John and ASK him to do it. I don't PRAY to the person. BIG difference!

3) You claim people in heaven (angels too) pray for us. Again, NONE of your scripture actually says this. It says they pray, but not for whom they pray.

Ultimately, this is your argument, you are asking Mary to intercede for you. Unfortunately, the words you use are not something like, "hey mary, could you pray for me", you are directing your prayers TO mary, which is idolatry.

Its really funny that you are able to say, "when we pray to Mary" and not instantly feel foolish. You would never be caught saying, "so the other night, I prayed to my grandpa". If you don't pray to your parents or other people, if you feel praying to other people is wrong, then you definitely should agree that praying to Mary is wrong. Unless you are saying that we can pray to other people.

Or perhaps we can only pray to dead people? Which is it?

Paul asked others to pray for him and that's a fact. And I don't think angels wwere praying for God.

chrisd:

Paul asked others to pray for him and that's a fact. And I don't think angels wwere praying for God.

I'm not disputing that at all.

However, nowhere in the bible is anyone but God prayed to. There is no praying to Moses, Abraham, David, etc.

There is no praying to Mary in the bible as well.

Praying to a person is idolatry.

I await your response to those charges.

The Bible is not the only way to God, that's the problem. It's a basic reformation twist, that all you need is your Bible. And anyway you shouls have noticed that Bibles are not all the same and some are chunkier than others. Luther/Calvin etc chucked out lots of the Bible which they did not like. One of them is justification by faith alone which is not part of the actual Bible.

Early Protestant reformers of the 16th century like Martin Luther, Martin Bucer, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Calvin promoted individual judgment and interpretation of the Bible. They rejected outside authority (John 17: 20-23) (Luke 10: 16) that is the Holy Spirit sent upon the Church by Christ to teach and guide the Church as a universal body in matters of faith and morals. In effect, we have Korah’s revolt on a grand scale (Num. 16:2-33) (Jude 1:4-. Protestant churches then became fragmented into many thousands (well over 20,000) of Protestant denominations and growing. They can have standards of moral behavior that will accommodate almost any lifestyle. They appeal to pride and self, by claiming to be "progressive" or "modern". They claim "rights" not given by God using appealing terms like "personal choice."

The early Protestant reformers of the 16th century also adapted a shorter, 66-book canon of Scripture. They have a large chunk of truth but not the fullness of the truth in the Church founded by Jesus Christ. It is the Protestant churches that are adopting relatively recent or novel doctrines like justification by faith alone (sola fide) and use of the Bible alone (sola scriptura) as the only source of divine revelation. They eliminated the deuterocanonical books of the Traditional Bible (LV) of the Catholic Church, which had been in use for over 1000 years, and which supported Catholic doctrine like prayer for the dead and Purgatory found in 2 Maccabees.

Your point?

You still haven't responded to my questions.

I suppose that the catholic texts also initially supported indulgences, but we protestants got rid of that too. Now you can't pay your way out of sin.

How about pentecostal indungences. Pay your tithe to the pastor and you will be saved and get a lot of blessings. That's what they teach in London.

so, they are copying a former practice of the catholic church.

Though, this must be a new thing. Most pentecostal denominations I know of in the US don't practice that.

Still, what about this praying to Mary thing. . . still seems like idolatry to me. I can't imagine praying to my parents or my professors. . I don't see why I'd pray to Mary either.

No one is telling you to do it right? It's not requirement in Catholic church. But I understand it looks very strange to outsiders. It is similar when we catholics see pentecostal preaching and the revival, we tend to see it like just a big entertainment showoff.

This is not about someone telling or not telling me what to do.

I assume that there is enough common ground between catholicism and my denomination of christianity for us to agree on the definition of idolatry.

So, if we agree that praying to a human being is idolatry, I would like an explanation of how exactly a catholic can pray to Mary without becoming an idolater.

Also, there is the concept of purgatory, something that most catholics can barely explain. Is it a part of catholic doctrine? If so, why? Why would there be things about catholicism that 90% of all catholics can barely understand . . or even know about. [You don't have to answer this part - just the stuff about mary].