goodnews201668:
I gat the question, if humans are already immortals what's the essence of Jesus dying to give man immortality or eternal life? I think that's the question.

The problem you JW have is the doctrine of Materialism. Eternal life is there all ready, but were man will spend it is the reason Christ came.
When we shed off the flesh, there's a life to live.

Apst Paul talks about it as Mortality put on immortality.
This flesh is mortality, we right now in this flesh are not yet living the life of immortality because, we are still in the Material, physical realm, but when we die, we shall move to the realm of immortality. There no one dies. That's when or Immortal souls will start it's eternal living. Where is the bone of contention.

What is the eternal life which Christ came to give? It's eternal life in heaven with God in his Kingdom.
not in hellfire with Satan and his Angels. Christ came to save us from the eternal life in hell. Kapish?

Luke 20:, 34-36
... And Jesus said to them, The people of this world and present age marry and are given in marriage; But those who are considered worthy to gain that other world and that future age and to attain to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage; For they cannot die again, but they are angel-like and equal to angels. And being like Angel sharers in the resurrection, they are sons of God.

analice107:


Jessicha, how did Cain got to know that his sin wasn't hidden? God revealed that to him, how? Because the blood of Abel cried for Vengeance, but from where? Could it be from here?
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the Word of God and for the testimony they had borne.

And, does blood have a voice? Could it also mean that because the life force which is the spirit of every man is in the blood? Lev. 1:14.

Genesis 4:6,7 clearly shows that Cain was already aware of sins and that God is displeased with him.
Verse 7 shows that after God's warning he went ahead and killed his brother.

Again it was not Abel's cry that made Cain realize his sins, it was God himself.
4:16 says after he was made to realize his sins and the consequences he went away from God's presence.

goodnews201668:


Let me pretend I agree with you, but the Bible said they were bought from earth with the blood of the lamb.

Is possible for one to make heaven when the lamb has not been slaughtered?
Remember we are talking about Abraham.
][Who was long dead before Christ came and sacrificed himself.

?Where did I say that Abraham was in Heaven before Jesus came

dolphinheart:
@ scholar8200, going up and down about what happens to man when he dies is not necessary, this view that a part of man survives death is wrong, the scriptures never taught us so.

The scriptures had told us how man was made, the process and the components in which man was created. none of this includes giving man a soul. The scriptures had irrevocably said " MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL".

The God that created adam also told adam what will happen to him at death, God said :
King James Version
Ge 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

look at the underlined above, are you saying that God lied and Adam is still eating from the ground in hell? when the days of Adams life ended, surely he stopped eating right? therefore adam did not continue his life elsewhere!
King James Version
Ge 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

look at the verse above, did God say " your body returns to the ground" ? no!, did God say part of you return to the ground" ? no!. God say "you", the person , returns to the ground, cus you where taken from the ground(read gen 2:7).
what did God say we are , he said we are dust!

when God made man, he formed the dust into flesh, before giving it life, this status of man was made known by God in the scripture below,(I'll quote more than one teanslation)

[color=red]New International Version
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

New Living Translation
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be....
are you saying that God is lying here when he said that you are mortal? that in reality you are immortal, but just living in a mortal body?, God is referring to the real you or me here, he was not talking about a part of you. humans are mortals with a lifespan. They are living souls that stop living when they die.

now let's go further to what happens to that living soul when it dies.
The scriptures tells us these:
King James Version
Ps 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

King James Version
Ec 3:20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

King James Version
Job 10:9Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

When man dies, his spirit leaves him, he( the man, the person) turns to dust!
The scriptures are clear on where man returns to when he dies. All men, you and me, return to the same place adam returned to!

what happens to man at death:
King James Version
Ps 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
did you read what the psalmist said " in that very day, his thoughts perish" . does this not contradict the view that the rich man had thoughts of his brothers still alive when he had died?
If you believe that the rich man literally had thoughts, then you are saying the bible is contradicting itself? is that so .
King James Version
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
can you see what the scripture says here, when you are dead, YOU KNOW NOTHING!, but you want them to know they are burning and in pain right? The scriptures says otherwise.
whichever part of your composition you think is the real concious person, it knows nothing at death!
King James Version
Ec 9:6[u]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished;[/u] neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
These verse tells you that a dead person has no feelings, it has perished, their love has perished!.
King James Version
Ec 9:10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
can you see what happens to me and you when we die, no knowledge, no works, no wisdom in the grave/ hell/ pit/ sheol where we will all end up! do you agree with the scriptures or do you disagree with the words of a very wise man inspired by God?!


look at all these other scriptures
Ps 115:17The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.

Ps 6:5For in death there is no mention of you; In the Grave, who will praise you?

Ps 146:3, 4Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.4His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

Isa 38:18For the Grave cannot glorify you, Death cannot praise you. Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Ps 88:10Will you perform wonders for the dead? Can those powerless in death rise up to praise you?

Joh 11:11After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am going to awaken him

Isa 26:14They are dead; they will not live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them To annihilate them and destroy all mention of them.

can the soul die? yes
King James Version
Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

King James Version
Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

King James Version
Re 16:3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
jos 2:13 That you will save my father and mother, my brethren end sisters, and all things that are theirs, and deliver our souls from death

King James Version
Ps 33:19To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

King James Version
Ps 56:13For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

from the scriptures, weave learnt the soul can refer to the person himself or the life the person has.

Noted, with thanks.

goodnews201668:


What about that Bible portion that suggested hell is abyss or bottomless pit?

What I did was to quote Strong's which clearly states the nature of Sheoul and also shows that apart from the Grave, the word is sometimes used to denote the Pit. And this pit is described as a bottomless (abyss) one! Simple!
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9-1.htm

analice107:

The problem you JW have is the doctrine of Materialism. Eternal life is there all ready, but were man will spend it is the reason Christ came.
When we shed off the flesh, there's a life to live.

Apst Paul talks about it as Mortality put on immortality.
This flesh is mortality, we right now in this flesh are not yet living the life of immortality because, we are still in the Material, physical realm, but when we die, we shall move to the realm of immortality. There no one dies. That's when or Immortal souls will start it's eternal living. Where is the bone of contention.

What is the eternal life which Christ came to give? It's eternal life in heaven with God in his Kingdom.
not in hellfire with Satan and his Angels. Christ came to save us from the eternal life in hell. Kapish?

Luke 20:, 34-36
... And Jesus said to them, The people of this world and present age marry and are given in marriage; But those who are considered worthy to gain that other world and that future age and to attain to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage; For they cannot die again, but they are angel-like and equal to angels. And being like Angel sharers in the resurrection, they are sons of God.

But whichever way you look at it man is mortal hence Christ's sacrifice to grant man immortality.

Bible portion that prove man is mortal.

Bible > Psalms > Chapter 9 > Verse 20
◄ Psalm 9:20 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
Strike them with terror, LORD; let the nations know they are only mortal.

New Living Translation
Make them tremble in fear, O LORD. Let the nations know they are merely human. Interlude

English Standard Version
Put them in fear, O LORD! Let the nations know that they are but men! Selah

New American Standard Bible
Put them in fear, O LORD; Let the nations know that they are but men. Selah.

King James Bible
Put them in fear, O LORD: that the nations may know themselves to be but men. Selah.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Put terror in them, LORD; let the nations know they are only men. Selah

International Standard Version
Make them afraid, LORD, Let the nations know that they are only human. Interlude

NET Bible
Terrify them, LORD! Let the nations know they are mere mortals! (Selah)

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Establish a lawgiver for them, who shall instruct the nations that they are children of men.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Strike them with terror, O LORD. Let the nations know that they are [only] mortal. [Selah]


Different translations but same meaning.
Mortal, human, children of men, all showing man is motarl.

DoctorAlien:


If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were gathered to Adam and Abel at their death, to whom were Adam and Abel gathered at their own death?

Bible does not use that statement for them.

DoctorAlien:


When GOD will rain fire on brimstone and the wicked at last, where will they emerge from?

I should ask you who are the dead that would be cast into the Lake of fire whose names are not in the Book of Life if the rain of fire will annihilate them?

DoctorAlien:


So Paradise is not Heaven? Jesus took the repentant thief to Paradise and left him there?

Meanwhile, who said that a big gulf separates Heaven and hell?

That was not an affirmation, it was a question I asked you!

DoctorAlien:


See another lie. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were gathered to Adam and Abel at their death? (Chei !!!) Where does the Bible say that?

The bolded part above: when did doctrines become a matter of personal persuasion?

And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 49:33

Scholar8200:

Bible does not use that statement for them.

Which statement are you talking about?

If you are talking about "gathered to", remember you were the one that used it:

Scholar8200:
I am persuaded that those are the people Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc were gathered to at death.

Scholar8200:

And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 49:33

You said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were gathered to Adam and Abel, but the Bible said Jacob was gathered to his people.

Are Adam and Abel Jacob's people?

Scholar8200:
I should ask you who are the dead that would be cast into the Lake of fire whose names are not in the Book of Life if the rain of fire will annihilate them?

It is simple: the lake of fire will be on this earth.

Go and search your Bible.

goodnews201668:


You said hell/Sheol has the bottomless pit.

That's not what the Bible said, hell/Sheol is the world of the dead and it's not a physical place.

The world of the dead but Psalm 9:17 makes it clear all will not be in the same condition.

While abyss is a different place, not a place of the dead. A bottomless pit, or place of restraint.
Someone maybe alive and be in abyss, when it was opened in revelations 9:1-3 it was figurative locusts that came out not dead people.
Chapter of Revelations shows that satan will be cast and chained into abyss and will be released after the one thousand year reign of Christ.

What do you mean by the highlighted? Besides, where is the pit and what will be its final end? Reserved for some satan wannabes?

Scholar8200:


That was not an affirmation, it was a question I asked you!

Simple: By the time the new Jerusalem will descend out of Heaven, there will be nothing like hell, and so no gulf whatsoever separating from Heaven. See Rev. 21:1,4,5.

Scholar8200:


?Where did I say that Abraham was in Heaven before Jesus came

Hmmmm na waoo, that means the story is a parable an illustration.
Obviously Abraham wasn't in heaven when Jesus told the story.
Check footnote of Jerusalem Bible to see it's a story.
Stop running from pillar to post.

I have asked you before,
Why did Jesus said it will be easier for a camel to pass through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom?

Must a Camel pass through the needle's eye for a rich man to make the kingdom?
No, it's practically impossible.
So Jesus uses illustrations, stories, sometimes the stories are exaggerated or hyperbolic.

Scholar8200:


?Where did I say that Abraham was in Heaven before Jesus came

Hmmmm na waoo, that means the story is a parable an illustration.
Obviously Abraham wasn't in heaven when Jesus told the story.
Check footnote of Jerusalem Bible to see it's a story.
Stop running from pillar to post.

I have asked you before,
Why did Jesus said it will be easier for a camel to pass through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom?

Must a Camel pass through the needle's eye for a rich man to make the kingdom?
No, it's practically impossible.
So Jesus uses illustrations, stories to teach people. Sometimes the stories are exaggerated or hyperbolic.

goodnews201668:


Hmmmm na waoo, that means the story is a parable an illustration.
Obviously Abraham wasn't in heaven when Jesus told the story.
Check footnote of Jerusalem Bible to see it's a story.
Stop running from pillar to post.

I have asked you before,
Why did Jesus said it will be easier for a camel to pass through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter the kingdom?

Must a Camel pass through the needle's eye for a rich man to make the kingdom?
No, it's practically impossible.
So Jesus uses illustrations, stories, sometimes the stories are exaggerated or hyperbolic.

So you believe Heaven is Abraham's bosom?

dorox:


In explaining death to Adam God said to him from dust you are and to dust you shall return. In orderwords you are made out of dust and at death you shall return to your initial state which is lifeless dust. That is why Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 3:19,20
Nothing was said about us having an immortal soul, it says that at death we are no different from animals. It is this death that Jesus came to deliver us from by presenting his perfect life as a ransome for our salvation as stated in John 17:3 which I won't quote because it is all too familiar.

2 Corinthians 5:1,6,8 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. So then, we are always full of good and hopeful and confident courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the home with the Lord [that is promised us]. [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.

Every one has immortality already, but where to spend it is why Christ came.

We are spirits living in a body on earth, (material realm), our life force which is the immortality becomes visible, but not in this realm again, but I the realm of the spirits
See what Peter said;
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit, In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, [The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God’s patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through WATER.

Christ died in his human body, but was made alive in the spirit and went and preached to the SPIRITS IN PRISON(?) What?? There's Prison in the spirit realm

which spirits are being referred to here? (The souls of those who long ago BEFORE in the days of Noah).

So, Apts Peter is preaching a false Doctrine here?

Watchtower Come Ooo.

You can not believe this because the Elders in the Watchtower org. have told you that life doesn't transcend this material realm, and you have also closed your mind to all the scriptures you read. The bible is all about spirituality and hereafter, but you won't believe it.

analice107:
Every one has immortality already, but where to spend it is why Christ came.

Read 1 Tim. 6:15,16. Tell me what you think.

Scholar8200:

So you believe Heaven is Abraham's bosom?

You are truly confused,
Now just show me where the Bible said righteous in Abraham's blossom will be transferred to heaven.
By the way are they before going to the heaven?
Thanks.

DoctorAlien:


Simple: By the time the new Jerusalem will descend out of Heaven, there will be nothing like hell, and so no gulf whatsoever separating from Heaven. See Rev. 21:1,4,5.

Indeed, no hell but there will be a Lake of fire.
Between Revelation 19 and 20 is 1000 years and 19 ends with the Beast and false prophet being cast there. Now after the milllenial reign satan will join the duo meaning they would NOT be annihilated by the fire!

Scholar8200:

Indeed, no hell but there will be a Lake of fire.
Between Revelation 19 and 20 is 1000 years and 19 ends with the Beast and false prophet being cast there. Now after the milllenial reign satan will join the duo meaning they would NOT be annihilated by the fire!

Read Ezek. 28:13-18. Satan will be burnt to ashes. Will his ashes still be alive, if he will not be annihilated?

dolphinheart:


replay! God was already talking to cain about sin before died na!

so literally, souls are under the alter and not in paradise, or is paradise at the foot of the alter?

Lev 1: 14?

dolphinheart he yaff kill me with laugh here, no be paradise again na under altar .

Scholar8200:
The world of the dead but Psalm 9:17 makes it clear all will not be in the same condition.
What do you mean by the highlighted? Besides, where is the pit and what will be its final end? Reserved for some satan wannabes?

Maybe that's why your confusion about abyss keep growing,

abyss is a state of inactivity not a physical place.
But I am telling it must not always be for the dead who according to the Bible are inactive, a living being can also be abyssed.
Things like locust was found in abyss, the devil will be chained and cast into abyss.
So living things and beings can be found in abyss but not so with the grave.
It's symbolic not a physical location.

Scholar8200:

Indeed, no hell but there will be a Lake of fire.
Between Revelation 19 and 20 is 1000 years and 19 ends with the Beast and false prophet being cast there. Now after the milllenial reign satan will join the duo meaning they would NOT be annihilated by the fire!

Read Rev. 21:1,4,5. If the Bible says old things will pass away, and Satan is still there, have old things really passed away?

Scholar8200:

Indeed, no hell but there will be a Lake of fire.
Between Revelation 19 and 20 is 1000 years and 19 ends with the Beast and false prophet being cast there. Now after the milllenial reign satan will join the duo meaning they would NOT be annihilated by the fire!

You haven't answered this questions, why is death and hell are cast into the lake of fire?
What's there sin?
Will they also burn forever?
Why did the Bible said lake of fire means second death?

Scholar8200:
What I did was to quote Strong's which clearly states the nature of Sheoul and also shows that apart from the Grave, the word is sometimes used to denote the Pit. And this pit is described as a bottomless (abyss) one! Simple!
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9-1.htm

mr man , enough is enough

you don claim soul are resurected which means they die , so I dont expect anyone on this thread to take you serious anymore .

the pit that was described as bottomless is not sheol . unless u could show me that sheol is the same word translated pit .

analice107:


2 Corinthians 5:1,6,8 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. So then, we are always full of good and hopeful and confident courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the home with the Lord [that is promised us]. [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.

Every one has immortality already, but where to spend it is why Christ came.

We are spirits living in a body on earth, (material realm), our life force which is the immortality becomes visible, but not in this realm again, but I the realm of the spirits
See what Peter said;
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit, In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, [The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God’s patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through WATER.

Christ died in his human body, but was made alive in the spirit and went and preached to the SPIRITS IN PRISON(?) What?? There's Prison in the spirit realm

which spirits are being referred to here? (The souls of those who long ago BEFORE in the days of Noah).

So, Apts Peter is preaching a false Doctrine here?

Watchtower Come Ooo.

You can not believe this because the Elders in the Watchtower org. have told you that life doesn't transcend this material realm, and you have also closed your mind to all the scriptures you read. The bible is all about spirituality and hereafter, but you won't believe it.

Stop shouting like a mad man here, if you cant make any input keep quiet.
It's not by force.

CAPTIVATOR:


mr man , enough is enough

you don claim soul are resurected which means they die , so I dont expect anyone on this thread to take you serious anymore .

the pit that was described as bottomless is not sheol . unless u could show me that sheol is the same word translated pit .

Scholar8200:
What I did was to quote Strong's which clearly states the nature of Sheoul and also shows that apart from the Grave, the word is sometimes used to denote the Pit. And this pit is described as a bottomless (abyss) one! Simple!
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9-1.htm

So whose post is it? Me?

analice107:

The problem you JW have is the doctrine of Materialism. Eternal life is there all ready, but were man will spend it is the reason Christ came.

YOU are a LIAR , capital letter.

John 3:16 , Jesus came to give us eternal live not that we already have it. nd if anyon doesnt want eternal life, they are Destroyed .

When we shed off the flesh, there's a life to live.

shed off flesh ? you be SNAKE

Apst Paul talks about it as Mortality put on immortality.
This flesh is mortality, we right now in this flesh are not yet living the life of immortality because, we are still in the Material, physical realm, but when we die, we shall move to the realm of immortality. There no one dies. That's when or Immortal souls will start it's eternal living. Where is the bone of contention.

if you are not yet living the life of immortality, u just confess YOU are not immortal .

exposed @ bold .

What is the eternal life which Christ came to give? It's eternal life in heaven with God in his Kingdom.

eternal life means everlasting life , simple and plain .

there is temporary life , which all man all have inherit, Christ came so we by putting faith in him might have everlasting life

not in hellfire with Satan and his Angels. Christ came to save us from the eternal life in hell.
Kapish?

so those in hell will have eternal life , the gift of God through Jesus Rom 6:23,. cover your eyes in shame .

Christ save man from sin and death . thats what the bible said . Romans 5: 12, 21

Luke 20:, 34-36
... And Jesus said to them, The people of this world and present age marry and are given in marriage; But those who are considered worthy to gain that other world and that future age and to attain to the resurrection from the dead
neither marry nor are given in marriage; For they cannot die again, but they are angel-like and equal to angels. And being like Angel sharers in the resurrection, they are sons of God
.

cant you see he is talking about the Ressurection ?

he even said that FUTUre age . how come urs is immediately they die , not even waiting till ressurection ?