CoolUsername:


Just for the record this is what I said:

"It (atheism) allows people break out of indoctrination and
have an identity of their own"

I did not say that a person cannot be indoctrinated into atheism, I only stated that atheism is a product of breaking out of religious indoctrination and thinking for oneself.

Italo just took what I said out context for his/her own nefarious purposes.

Bye-bye!

I see.

Geist:
I also asked for the basis of your disbelief in a God or gods
Edit: you also dodged the first sentence of the quote. Please address it.

There is no evidence for God.

No need to talk too much. Present evidence and I will believe

italo:


Which negative did I deny?

Show me where the Catholic Church ever taught a negative?

You're just trying to dodge from the uselessness of Atheism to humanity by attacking the Church. The Church didn't make Atheism useless and destructive to humanity.

The catholic church had slavery in its doctrine. In the bible and the papal decrees
The catholic church supported and instigated genocidal crusades
The catholic church laundered mafia money


Do you deny all these things I have said about the catholic church?

You then lied that catholic church invented hospices. Shame on you

You are a liar and a deceiver. I'm happy your lies are making people to dislike the catholic church even more.

JackBizzle:



There is no evidence for God.

No need to talk too much. Present evidence and I will believe

lol, does this not amount to what I quoted above? You need empirical evidence to believe in anything. Bedsides , scientists are does who seek scientific explanation to anything not does who believe all things should have scientific explanations. No where in the quote suggested that all atheist are scientists. Get it?

JackBizzle:


The catholic church had slavery in its doctrine. In the bible and the papal decrees

Show me where Catholic doctrine had slavery. I see love of all men in Catholic doctrine.

JackBizzle:

The catholic church supported and instigated genocidal crusades

Are you talking about the Crusade to fight back Muslim barbarians that were killing and raping inhabitants and pilgrims of/to the Holy Land? That was a just war. We need another Crusade against the Islamic State barbarians again.

JackBizzle:


The catholic church laundered mafia money

No proof. However, I know that Catholic Church is the single body that runs the most schools, hospitals and charities in the world.

JackBizzle:



You then lied that catholic church invented hospices. Shame on you

Shame on YOU because it's true. That's why you can't show me hospices before the Catholic Church invented them...and invented the Modern university system.

JackBizzle:


You are a liar and a deceiver. I'm happy your lies are making people to dislike the catholic church even more.

You're wrong. It's truth that mainly makes people hate the Catholic Church.

And many people are liking the Catholic Church even more.

Show me any benefit of Atheism to humanity...

...apart from emptiness, bitterness and destruction.

Geist:
lol, does this not amount to what I quoted above? You need empirical evidence to believe in anything. Bedsides , scientists are does who seek scientific explanation to anything not does who believe all things should have scientific explanations. No where in the quote suggested that all atheist are scientists. Get it?

He can't get little things like that. He's not that intelligent.

That's why he has begun to avoid your argument by saying "no need to talk too much." This is someone who has been talking too much trash on this thread for days.

Watch out for insults against God and the Church and your person when you press on with intelligent points.

italo:

1) It was Catholic-majority countries that specialized in chattel slavery.
http://scholar.library.miami.edu/emancipation/religion4.htm

2) It was a Crusader king, not the "barbarian", that decided to slaughter nearly three thousand refugees and prisoners of war including women and children.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/lionheart.htm

3) The Vatican Bank was a haven of tax evasion and money laundering for decades.
http://www.npr.org/2015/01/30/382374060/from-laundering-to-profiteering-a-multitude-of-sins-at-the-vatican-bank

4) The three oldest (two are still functioning) universities in the world are all in/from the Arab world
http://mentalfloss.com/article/18853/quick-10-10-oldest-still-functioning-universities-world

5) By the Heian period (9th century) the Japanese were carrying out palliative care and had rooms (mujo-in) set aside for the dying to prepare for and embrace death.
http://jsri.jp/English/ojo/round1/day1aft.html

6) Atheist, humanist and transhumanist thinkers dragged humanity kicking and screaming into the Information Age
http://www.alternet.org/belief/8-atheist-and-agnostic-scientists-who-changed-world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

But sure, let the Stockholm Syndrome speak through you...

Geist:
lol, does this not amount to what I quoted above? You need empirical evidence to believe in anything. Bedsides , scientists are does who seek scientific explanation to anything not does who believe all things should have scientific explanations. No where in the quote suggested that all atheist are scientists. Get it?

Sharaap. There is no evidence for God.

Sorry for being impatient but i have seen all manner of sophistry and pseudoscience aimed at arguing for God. Bring evidence for God and I will accept and sharaap.

italo:


He can't get little things like that. He's not that intelligent.

That's why he has begun to avoid your argument by saying "no need to talk too much." This is someone who has been talking too much trash on this thread for days.

Watch out for insults against God and the Church and your person when you press on with intelligent points.

You talk too much. Let God do the talking.

italo:


Show me where Catholic doctrine had slavery. I see love of all men in Catholic doctrine.


Are you talking about the Crusade to fight back Muslim barbarians that were killing and raping inhabitants and pilgrims of/to the Holy Land? That was a just war. We need another Crusade against the Islamic State barbarians again.



No proof. However, I know that Catholic Church is the single body that runs the most schools, hospitals and charities in the world.


Shame on YOU because it's true. That's why you can't show me hospices before the Catholic Church invented them...and invented the Modern university system.



You're wrong. It's truth that mainly makes people hate the Catholic Church.

And many people are liking the Catholic Church even more.

Show me any benefit of Atheism to humanity...

...apart from emptiness, bitterness and destruction.

Someone has already destroyed you;

chaosattractor:

1) It was Catholic-majority countries that specialized in chattel slavery.
http://scholar.library.miami.edu/emancipation/religion4.htm
2) It was a Crusader king, not the "barbarian", that decided to slaughter nearly three thousand refugees and prisoners of war including women and children.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/lionheart.htm
3) The Vatican Bank was a haven of tax evasion and money laundering for decades.
http://www.npr.org/2015/01/30/382374060/from-laundering-to-profiteering-a-multitude-of-sins-at-the-vatican-bank
4) The three oldest (two are still functioning) universities in the world are all in/from the Arab world
http://mentalfloss.com/article/18853/quick-10-10-oldest-still-functioning-universities-world
5) By the Heian period (9th century) the Japanese were carrying out palliative care and had rooms (mujo-in) set aside for the dying to prepare for and embrace death.
http://jsri.jp/English/ojo/round1/day1aft.html
6) Atheist, humanist and transhumanist thinkers dragged humanity kicking and screaming into the Information Age
http://www.alternet.org/belief/8-atheist-and-agnostic-scientists-who-changed-world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology
But sure, let the Stockholm Syndrome speak through you...

JackBizzle:



Sharaap. There is no evidence for God.

Sorry for being impatient but i have seen all manner of sophistry and pseudoscience aimed at arguing for God. Bring evidence for God and I will accept and sharaap.

You should be a shamed of yourself. Even after priding yourself with logic you return with this post that is completely devoid of sense.
FYI, I never even made an argument for God throughout my post. My argument all along was atheism can very well be indoctrinated.

italo:


He can't get little things like that. He's not that intelligent.

That's why he has begun to avoid your argument by saying "no need to talk too much." This is someone who has been talking too much trash on this thread for days.

Watch out for insults against God and the Church and your person when you press on with intelligent points.

@ bolded, I was actually waiting for him to prove you wrong before I reply you. How wrong I was

Is nobody going to challenge my post? All in the spirit of friendly debate of course.

chaosattractor:
Is nobody going to challenge my post? All in the spirit of friendly debate of course.

I'm sorry, you seem to be new here. What you'll realize here is that a lot of people aren't interested in any sensible discussion. All they are interested in to tell you how stupid they believe your views are once you disagree with them. A lot of people will make baseless (or dubiously sourced) assertions and fallacious arguments but go completely silent, aggressive, or become dishonest (depending on the person) when you bring up adequately cited claims.

Just a heads up.

CoolUsername:


I'm sorry, you seem to be new here. What you'll realize here is that a lot of people aren't interested in any sensible discussion. All they are interested in to tell you how stupid they believe your views are once you disagree with them. A lot of people will make baseless (or dubiously sourced) assertions and fallacious arguments but go completely silent, aggressive, or become dishonest (depending on the person) when you bring up adequately cited claims.

Just a heads up.

Funny thing is those you feel are just about what you sited above feel exactly the same way about you.

Geist:
Funny thing is those you feel are just about what you sited above feel exactly the same way about you.

I try to respect the person I'm debating against (unless the person disrespects me first, or engages in hateful and generally bad behaviour) because I realize that I could just as easily be sharing their opinions if my life experiences were even minutely different from what they were.

I also take debates as an opportunity to learn about the opposing side's perspective of a matter and weigh their convictions against mine. I like talking to intelligent and mature people, even when I do not agree with their ideas.

Or at least that's what I try to do. I probably slip up and act like a jerk sometimes, though. It's easy to build bias like that when you become disillusioned by some trends that occur when arguing with some certain groups of people. Not like that excuses any offensive behaviour that I may have exhibited.

Geist:
You should be a shamed of yourself. Even after priding yourself with logic you return with this post that is completely devoid of sense.
FYI, I never even made an argument for God throughout my post. My argument all along was atheism can very well be indoctrinated.

I knew you were full of shite from your first comment. I and Italo agreed from the onset that atheists can be indoctrinated...so, I wonder what your point is.


Sharap

JackBizzle:



I knew you were full of shite from your first comment.

For someone who claims to have broken free from some kind of bondage where exactly is your anger coming from ?

I and Italo agreed from the onset that atheists can be indoctrinated...so, I wonder what your point is.


Sharap

Need I remind you that the below was your post which I first made comment to?

JackBizzle:



Does atheism have any creed or central doctrines? How can it then contain indoctrination?

Geist:
For someone who claims to have broken free from some kind of bondage where exactly is your anger coming from ? Need I remind you that the below was your post which I first made comment to?

Atheists can be indoctrinated

Atheism does not contain indoctrination


spot the difference

JackBizzle:



Atheists can be indoctrinated

Atheism does not contain indoctrination


spot the difference

maybe you should go back and read the my comment you bolded. I mentioned atheism can very well be indoctrinated as my argument and not God or atheist like you claimed.

Geist:
maybe you should go back and read the my comment you bolded. I mentioned atheism can very well be indoctrinated as my argument and not God or atheist like you claimed.

Atheism holds no beliefs- it is a disbelief. Simple and short.

All this is unnecessary. There is no evidence for God. That much we agree on.

The End

JackBizzle:



Atheism holds no beliefs- it is a disbelief. Simple and short.

All this is unnecessary. There is no evidence for God. That much we agree on.

The End

You can continue your evasive tactics. Suit yourself. And by the way , we did not agree on anything. That I didn't make any case for God does not mean I believe or there's no evidence for God. I just didn't make a case like you claimed.

italo:


Let me educate you.

When the official Church teaching and policy promotes and supports giving to charity, setting up charity homes etc...and members, arms of the Church and the whole Church itself do what the Church asks, with the full legal, spiritual and material backing of the whole universal Church...then we can rightly say: The Catholic Church is the biggest Charity in the world.

But when the official teaching and laws of the Church prohibits see outside of marriage, yet members, top officials of the Church defy the Church and rape little boys, we cannot say the Catholic Church is raping little boys. We say Fr X or Msgr Y is raping little boys in contravention of the laws of the Church.

When a Governor or minister is stealing money, you don't say Nigeria is stealing money.

When a government appoints a known looter to a post and he proceeds to loot then yes, I'd say the government is very responsible. Just as your church moved suspect ped0s around, rather than report them to local authorities.

Moving them around to other jurisdictions were they continued to work with...children

You say they don't represent the church? then do tell why they weren't sacked....

On another note bush invades iraq. Do you think Bush alone is responsible? I thought we have america to blame for that? Obviously stuff like that happens all the time. I mean here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

A whole gaddem wiki page dedicated to your pope apologizing for crimes of your church

You think that pope, gods voice on earth that he's supposed to be, was misguided? Here's your current pope apologizing for past follies

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/10845

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-01-25/pope-to-visit-sweden-apologizes-for-catholic-wrongs

So your masters can admit their institution has been wrong before while you, good ser African, are here doing what?

Chai...

But wait, mayhaps you have a case?! let's go back a bit, and focus on the issue of ped0s in particular

wiki:

Canon law states,

The vicar of Christ.. . possesses full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely. (Can. 331) (...) By virtue of his office, the Roman pontiff not only possesses power over the universal church, but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them. (Can. 333) [230]

A Vatican spokesman contradicted the canon law above stating,

When individual institutions of national churches are implicated, that does not regard the competence of the Holy See. . . The competence of the Holy See is at the level of the Holy See.[230]

The Boston Globe compares this inconsistency to Pontius Pilate washing his hands stating the Holy See and the Pope have ultimate authority and responsibility over child abuse throughout the Catholic Church worldwide.[230]

Silvano Tomasi, the Holy See’s ambassador to the U.N. said that, the Vatican was not responsible for abusive priests because "priests are citizens of their own states, and they fall under the jurisdiction of their own country." but the United Nations report differed claiming that priests are “bound by obedience to the pope” under canon law the Vatican is accountable. The report also urged the Vatican to insist that priests and bishops involve the police in all abuse reports and end a “code of silence” leading to whistleblowers being “ostracized, demoted and fired.” [231]

So it seems like even your masters are panicking and trying to run away from this particular wahala...

too hot...lol

Suddenly, despite possessing 'full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church' and 'also ... the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them', he is not responsible for actions of said church

that's as ridiculous and contradictory as your omnibenovelent, omnipotent god letting children die everyday from sheer hunger.

It does not compute, bros

Make up your minds. You can't have one without the other. For starters, you accept the (possibly) good and the (conspicuously) bad, or you deny both.

Geist:
You can continue your evasive tactics. Suit yourself. And by the way , we did not agree on anything. That I didn't make any case for God does not mean I believe or there's no evidence for God. I just didn't make a case like you claimed.

0
I'm used to your (religious apologists) twisting and dubious arguments.

This is why i focus on the basic issue at hand.

Atheism contains no indoctrination. And there is no evidence for God.


You put up a false but secular notion to entrap me and I avoided it. Argue in a sincere way and I will reply in kind.

italo:
Are you talking about the Crusade to fight back Muslim barbarians that were killing and raping inhabitants and pilgrims of/to the Holy Land? That was a just war. We need another Crusade against the Islamic State barbarians again

So you believe the Crusaders did not act outside the authority of the church?

JackBizzle:


0
I'm used to your (religious apologists) twisting and dubious arguments.

This is why i focus on the basic issue at hand.

Atheism contains no indoctrination. And there is no evidence for God.


You put up a false but secular notion to entrap me and I avoided it. Argue in a sincere way and I will reply in kind.

Na so, I'm still baffled as to how I came across as a religious apologist

wiegraf:


When a government appoints a known looter to a post and he proceeds to loot then yes, I'd say the government is very responsible. Just as your church moved suspect ped0s around, rather than report them to local authorities.

Moving them around to other jurisdictions were they continued to work with...children

You say they don't represent the church? then do tell why they weren't sacked....

1. Hundreds of priests were defrocked for child abuse. Bitter haters like you always avoid that.

2. If an official loots, and according to the law of the land is imprisoned for 5 years, rehabilitated, counseled and released...then the Governor gives him another appointment, as is allowed by the law, then he loots again, I cannot say 'Nigeria did wrong.' same with a petty thief that is released back to society...or a Pedophile priest that is reprimanded, forgiven, counseled and reassigned.

wiegraf:

On another note bush invades iraq. Do you think Bush alone is responsible? I thought we have america to blame for that? Obviously stuff like that happens all the time. I mean here

If Bush went to war in contravention of US Law, then it can be said that he alone should be responsible. Why was Saddam Hussein Executed for using the institutions of the state at his disposal to commit crimes and not the whole of Iraq? Why were the Nazis tried and not Germany. When politicians use state institutions illegally to steal money, do you say "Nigeria stole Nigeria's money?" or 'Jonathan stole Nigeria's money?

wiegraf:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

A whole gaddem wiki page dedicated to your pope apologizing for crimes of your church

You think that pope, gods voice on earth that he's supposed to be, was misguided? Here's your current pope apologizing for past follies

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/10845

http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-01-25/pope-to-visit-sweden-apologizes-for-catholic-wrongs

So your masters can admit their institution has been wrong before while you, good ser African, are here doing what?

Chai...

That's the difference between the Church and the secular world. Nations, communities hardly ever apologize to one another even when the most heinous crimes are committed.

An apology is not always an indication that what I did is not good or was not for a good purpose...or was not a just and deserved recompense. An apology could just be a mark of politeness and/or humility.

If my mother scolds me in front of my friends for smoking at 15, she could apologize...but she hasn't done a bad thing. if you slap me and I slap you in return, I could apologize, but I haven't done you wrong.

There are many Atheistic and non-Atheistic govts through the ages that have tried to extinguish the Church, killing clergy, demolishing and confiscating Church property e.g China, N Korea, USSR, Albania, Roman Empire, Vietnam, Great Britain etc...who has ever made such a profound and public apology to the Catholic Church? Many Catholics fought against many Protestants...who has ever apologized to Catholics?

The Popes are just being the better people - humble and polite.

wiegraf:


But wait, mayhaps you have a case?! let's go back a bit, and focus on the issue of ped0s in particular



So it seems like even your masters are panicking and trying to run away from this particular wahala...

too hot...lol

Suddenly, despite possessing 'full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church' and 'also ... the primacy of ordinary power over all particular churches and groups of them', he is not responsible for actions of said church

that's as ridiculous and contradictory as your omnibenovelent, omnipotent god letting children die everyday from sheer hunger.

It does not compute, bros

Olodo that just swallows any indoctrination that haters like you post on wikipedia...here's is the full text which your masters hid from you:


Can. 333 §1. By virtue of his office, the Roman Pontiff not only possesses power offer the universal Church but also obtains the primacy of ordinary power offer all particular churches and groups of them. Moreover, this primacy strengthens and protects the proper, ordinary, and immediate power which bishops possess in the particular churches entrusted to their care.

wiegraf:


Make up your minds. You can't have one without the other. For starters, you accept the (possibly) good and the (conspicuously) bad, or you deny both.

I accept that the Catholic Church is the biggest charity and force for good in the world. I accept all Catholics are sinners, some with very grevious sins which contravene the teachings of the Church.

The reason you're seemingly outraged by pedophilia is probably because the Church kicks against it and many nations adapted their law to Church teachings. Islam is not against it. Many Atheists are even fighting that it should be legal for men to sleep with boys e.g nambla atheists. That's the difference, even when Catholics sin, they don't defend it, Atheist sin and try to legalize it.

Geist:
Na so, I'm still baffled as to how I came across as a religious apologist

"All things can be explained as the product of unintentional, undirected, purposeless evolution. No truth claim is acceptable if it cannot be subjected to scientific scrutiny"


^^^
Your dubious attempt to rope me into admitting some "atheist doctrine of science" lol

Kay17:


So you believe the Crusaders did not act outside the authority of the church?

Never said so.

The Allied war against the Nazis was a good thing...but did some soldiers act outside the authority of the Allied Nations? definitely.

The Crusades were a good and just thing, I repeat.

Geist:
@ bolded, I was actually waiting for him to prove you wrong before I reply you. How wrong I was

Told ya!

JackBizzle:



Someone has already destroyed you;

She has far more brains and tact than you. Learn from her articulate argument.

But I'm coming for her.

italo:


Never said so.

The Allied war against the Nazis was a good thing...but did some soldiers act outside the authority of the Allied Nations? definitely.

The Crusades were a good and just thing, I repeat.

A person that can say that the crusades were a good thing is a psychopath.

You see, a small part of the crusades were justified- there was a battle defending against the muslim invaders.

However, the ill-treatment of jews and pagans and also land grabs were wrong