tell them. even the mod that brought it to FP.

SamJed:
Here is what the bible says... It is appointed unto man once to die and after that judgement...Note the bolded...if you appoint someone for something you can reverse it for a reason...this explains why i believe most stories of people going to hell and heaven and coming back(not all are true though)...this also explains why one can be pronounced dead by doctors but after prayers by true children of God, the person will wake up...because it is appointed and not fixed... but for purgatory it is a pure lie...firstly there is no place in the bible where the word is mentioned...secondly the bible made it clear that if you receive Christ you will saved and if you don't you are condemned...thirdly if the passage that says after death, judgement is anything to go by then purgatory is a pure lie...if there is supposed to be a clause like purgatory, it would have been included...the passage would have been "it is appointed unto man once to die, then a possible atonement while dead, then judgement.

dhardline:
That teaching will only lead one to hell,it is the devils tool to destroy many.

The simple reason is: Why strive to be sanctified here on earth if i can archieve that when i die in

purgatory?

Remember the bible said 'After death is judgement'. No intermediaries.

Did you read the post?

Ancient Roman pagan belief mixed with the Roman catholic. Side of Christianity. It is purely a pagan belief

.

In 2nd Maccabees chapter 12, we saw how the Jewish people, after their battle, gathered offerings and sent to Jerusalem for atonement of the sins of their brothers and sisters who have died in the battle.....that they nay be free from their sins.

These offerings were made for those who have died already.

But unfortunately, protestants excluded the 2 books of Maccabees from their bible.

Scripture is very clear when it says, "But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, "You [God]... are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong..." How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.
the truth about Purgatory is almost self-evident to Catholics. However, to many Protestants this is one of the most repugnant of all Catholic teachings.
In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection... and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

One of the demonic doctrines of roman Catholics used in raising funds for the pope

Thanks a lot dear for this. It just made my faith stronger, though I know that no matter how you preach some people's heart is hardened and can never look at this topic objectively. One Love

Nothing like that in the Bible.

If it's appointed into a man judgement after death, where was Lazarus 3 days before Jesus resurrected him

SalC:
Did you read the post?

Yes i did.

He only kept trying to beautify the reason to make it acceptable.

Let me give you my own insight on the ressurection from what was written in the Holy Bible.It is

said that jesus conquered death and hell ,hence arose on the third day and the dead saints were raised up

with him.The bible never said Jesus conquered purgatory or anyother place.

Purgatory exists, it is a process meant to purify one before he enters heaven. There are sins which even a repented soul must pay before he enters heaven. Sins against the holy spirit. And yes it is implied in the Catholic bible, the book of second Machabees chapter 12 verse 36. Remember some books in the first compiled bible by the church as far back as the 4th century AD was rejected by Marin Lurthrer as false since it promoted the teachings of the Catholic Church. The book of second Machabees (one of the books rejected by Luther) said " Pray for the dead that they may be loosened from their sins. It is not imply you are praying for the dead in hell. No! Thats is simply a lack of understanding by many. Those in Purgatory have not paid for their sins against the spirit while on earth so they are purged of it before they can enter heaven.


According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:. Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

SamJed:
Here is what the bible says... It is appointed unto man once to die and after that judgement...Note the bolded...if you appoint someone for something you can reverse it for a reason...this explains why i believe most stories of people going to hell and heaven and coming back(not all are true though)...this also explains why one can be pronounced dead by doctors but after prayers by true children of God, the person will wake up...because it is appointed and not fixed... but for purgatory it is a pure lie...firstly there is no place in the bible where the word is mentioned...secondly the bible made it clear that if you receive Christ you will saved and if you don't you are condemned...thirdly if the passage that says after death, judgement is anything to go by then purgatory is a pure lie...if there is supposed to be a clause like purgatory, it would have been included...the passage would have been "it is appointed unto man once to die, then a possible atonement while dead, then judgement.

After death comes judgement ? Where did Lazarus go before Jesus raised him or he wasn't judged ?

Nobody knows the real truth, we weren't there when God created the World nor were we there when Jesus Christ was on Earth, all we have is the Bible, and even the Bible stated that we must not add or subtract from what is already written,, so if its not in the Bible, then its false but if it is accept it for it is true.

dhardline:
That teaching will only lead one to hell,it is the devils tool to destroy many.

The simple reason is: Why strive to be sanctified here on earth if i can archieve that when i die in

purgatory?

Remember the bible said 'After death is judgement'. No intermediaries.

actually you are wrong as far as the Bible is concerned. if you say there are no "intermediaries", just heaven and hell, then I want you to explain the place that was referred to as Abraham's bosom by Christ when he was telling the tale of Lazarus and the rich man?

it wasn't heaven, neither was it hell.

superior1:
One of the demonic doctrines of roman Catholics used in raising funds for the pope

( Ex 23:1 )- You shall not spread a false report.You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.

( Prov 19:9 )- A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish .

dhardline:


Yes i did.

He only kept trying to beautify the reason to make it acceptable.

Let me give you my own insight on the ressurection from what was written in the Holy Bible.It is

said that jesus conquered death and hell ,hence arose on the third day and the dead saints were raised up

with him.The bible never said Jesus conquered purgatory or anyother place.

Yeah, so to you he went to hell where satan is abi?

Preach salvation that you are sure of and leave speculation that does no extra good than to weaken a struggling believer who may see heaven as beyond his reach, only to struggle to make purgatory by committing what you may call little sins. Salvation is once, no second chance after death.
I'm a Catholic but I dnt accept all Catholic doctrine just because the church said we should. I am more concerned about what Christ/Bible says, and the things that are in tandem with the teachings of the Bible. Even if church is right, it is better to err on the side of caution.
Church doesn't go to heaven, the individuals do. Salvation is so personal that your family, friends, church, priest etc won't stand by you on that day.

This purgatory is nothing but a lie from the pit of hell to lead men astray.

The Bible says in Eccl 9:5[AMP ] that 'For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.'

A close friend of mine takes this doctrine so serious saying that God will not let people perish just like that so he lives his life anyhow, believing that he'll go to purgatory & ammend his ways. So sad!!!

[Purgatory was not mentioned in the BIBLE. EOD]The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5). (Luke 12:2–5).
Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.
Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)

Why No Protests?Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.
It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to bethe redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.
Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"
Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire" there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage. Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Why Go To Purgatory?Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

No Contradiction
The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

Nothing Unclean
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared tobe clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory


[/quote]

missdebs:
anyone who reads it to the end deserves an award

Gbammmmmmmm

Ioannes:


actually you are wrong as far as the Bible is concerned. if you say there are no "intermediaries", just heaven and hell, then I want you to explain the place that was referred to as Abraham's bosom by Christ when he was telling the tale of Lazarus and the rich man?

it wasn't heaven, neither was it hell.

Why would you say it was'nt heaven?

Luke 16 verse 25 : "But Abraham said, 'son, remember that in your life time you received your

good things, and likewise lazarus evil things; but now he is COMFORTED and you are tormented.

My Lord Jesus Christ used the word 'comforted' and not cleansed or waiting which is what the

teaching of purgatory assumes.

more....

fasho01:
This purgatory is nothing but a lie from the pit of he'll to lead men astray.

The Bible says in Eccl 9:5[AMP ] that 'For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.'

A close friend of mine takes this doctrine so serious saying that God will not let people perish just like that so he lives his life anyhow, believing that he'll go to purgatory & ammend his ways. So sad!!!

You and your friend should take to some learning.

1cor3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (Heaven)

1cor3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (Purgatory)

1cor3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (Hell fire)

Syncan:



Yeah, so to you he went to hell where satan is abi?

My brother i don't know about you but as for me,My Lord Jesus Christ is greater than satan.

dhardline:


My brother i don't know about you but as for me,My Lord Jesus Christ is greater than satan.

That's not what I asked. Do you think Jesus went to hell fire where satan is?

dhardline:
That teaching will only lead one to hell,it is the devils tool to destroy many.

The simple reason is: Why strive to be sanctified here on earth if i can archieve that when i die in

purgatory?

Remember the bible said 'After death is judgement'. No intermediaries.

He that has ears let him use it and listen! For the devil is the father of lies and there is no truth in him..the doctrine of purgatory is geared to make believers lose their guard with the mindset of "why do I have to strive for righteousness and holiness when I can do that in purgatory..l will enjoy myself on earth first"

Syncan:


That's not what I asked. Do you think Jesus went to hell fire where satan is?

NO, the place of death and hades, is it purgatory ?

I don't think there is a mid way between heaven and hell according to the bible. On judgment day, you will either be on Gods left hand side or on his right hand side which simply translates hell or heaven. So I want to believe it is a false teaching

dhardline:


Why would you say it was'nt heaven?

Luke 16 verse 25 : "But Abraham said, 'son, remember that in your life time you received your

good things, and likewise lazarus evil things; but now he is COMFORTED and you are tormented.

My Lord Jesus Christ used the word 'comforted' and not cleansed or waiting which is what the

teaching of purgatory assumes.

well then, if Abraham was already in heaven and Lazarus too, then what is the essence of the death of Jesus on the cross if people can make heaven without Christ?

Oh btw, I wasn't suggesting the place was purgatory. just to let you know that there are intermediate states of existence apart from heaven and he'll.

i dont think anyone was in heaven before Jesus' death. i think it was either hades or paradis. Scholars should help out.

i feel purgatory is used to justify the small sins we commit since one can take solace in the fact that he/she will be purged before going to heaven, that itself is a dangerous doctrne. it makes one feel at ease with these so called little sins which to me have higher tendency to cause one to lose salvation than the more hefty sins we commit. Never believed; never have, never will.