| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Syncan(m): 2:39pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
dhardline:
I am not without sin,for no one is.The day one can declare that he is without sin then that day he declares that he is no longer sick and has no need of a doctor/physician and remember that Jesus Christ came for those who acknowledge that they are sick. You actually are making it seem that i stand in my own righteousness,NO! I stand in the righteousness of Christ who is my advocate.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 21 to end: Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if
there had been a law given which could have given life,truly righteousness would have been by the
law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Let me highlight verse 27: for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Does someone who has put on Christ have to go thru purgatory to be cleansed again?If you say yes then you are saying Christ needs to be purged(God forbid). Now that we are in Christ we are new creatures walking with him through faith.
Let me add also that its not water baptism that is spoken of here.
And also for those who sing Abraham's blessings are mine,this is the way to be a partaker of the blessings by being his seed thru this and then heirs according to the promise. Friend. Take a look again at the bold, are you saying that when those "who have put on Christ" offend God through sin then it is Christ that commits those sins? (God forbid). Forget about whether it is water baptism or not, that's not what we are studying here. What you are doing above is that you are saying that when someone put on Christ in baptism, it's either (1)he is not capable of committing sin-even those you had listed earlier-again throughout his/her life, or (2) he goes to heaven with such sins as it is Christ that must have committed them and Christ cannot be purged. You cannot pick and chose when to be Christ, you cannot be man when you're committing sin and become Christ when you die in order to avoid the repercussion. Believers do fall, they sin, you cannot say someone who is a believer cannot fall, that's why St. Paul says " Take heed lest you fall" 1Cor 10:12 and charges Christians thus " When ye sin so against brethren, and wound their WEAK conscience, ye sin against Christ" ( 1 Cor 8.12)- this was for something as small as eating meat sacrificed to Idol- he wasn't talking to unbelievers. When John the apostle was writing the epistle, he wrote to believers, yet he said this to them "If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" ( 1 John 1.9). This shows that believers can fall into sin, but a true believer does not want to sin, and "dies daily" in an effort to watch and keep himself from sin. Granted some attain that perfection before departing this earth, but many at their point of death, cannot be said to be perfect. It is you now who takes God for granted by assuming that you'll go into heaven like that, yet scripture says that such a one will be saved, yet so as by fire. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by dhardline(m): 4:56pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
Syncan:
Friend. Take a look again at the bold, are you saying that when those "who have put on Christ" offend God through sin then it is Christ that commits those sins? (God forbid). Forget about whether it is water baptism or not, that's not what we are studying here. What you are doing above is that you are saying that when someone put on Christ in baptism, it's either (1)he is not capable of committing sin-even those you had listed earlier-again throughout his/her life, or (2) he goes to heaven with such sins as it is Christ that must have committed them and Christ cannot be purged. You cannot pick and chose when to be Christ, you cannot be man when you're committing sin and become Christ when you die in order to avoid the repercussion. Believers do fall, they sin, you cannot say someone who is a believer cannot fall, that's why St. Paul says "Take heed lest you fall" 1Cor 10:12 and charges Christians thus "When ye sin so against brethren, and wound their WEAK conscience, ye sin against Christ" (1 Cor 8.12)- this was for something as small as eating meat sacrificed to Idol- he wasn't talking to unbelievers. When John the apostle was writing the epistle, he wrote to believers, yet he said this to them "If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" (1 John 1.9). This shows that believers can fall into sin, but a true believer does not want to sin, and "dies daily" in an effort to watch and keep himself from sin. Granted some attain that perfection before departing this earth, but many at their point of death, cannot be said to be perfect. It is you now who takes God for granted by assuming that you'll go into heaven like that, yet scripture says that such a one will be saved, yet so as by fire.
I never said a believer cannot sin ...that is why i said that only those who are sick are in need of physicians and one who says he is not sick ie. Without sin ,does not need Christ.He dies daily,very true,same thing am saying. But this is what i really want you to pick out of this We are told to strive for perfection by dieing daily to our sins,let me assume that i die daily and then reach perfection here on earth does that not make we 'whole' and no more in need of a physician?hence no need of Christ. We die daily to rid of selves of the adamic nature in us which will continue until death..one who tries to rid himself of this adamic nature no longer has sin reigning in his members(that is no longer slave to sin/don't commit sins at will) hence being justified. what he battles now in Christ is this adamic nature which the process sanctifies him. Now Corinthians chapter 3 verse 11 to end : 11 already sates the foundation which is being built on which is Jesus christ.who builds on Jesus Christ if not the saved? Are you also aware that the works of the unrighteous is an abomination unto God? Hence the works being talked about here are the works of the saved. Since both already built on Christ both are saved but the reward for works done is the differnce.God wants us to do quality work for him here on earth and those works done will be tested and rewarded and he who does his work fully will get his reward but he that does his work shabbily will pass thru pains here on earth for him to repent and give his all in God service. Also note that WORKS is different from FRUITS of the spirit.e.g love,joy,peace. Which is also different from the law e.g thou shalt not kill,commir adultery etc. Works is what you do as a true christian to promote the kingdom of Christ e.g evengelising(i my self lack in this aspect alot), comforting your brethens in despair,giving to the needy and also for the spreading of his gospel etc. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Syncan(m): 5:37pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
dhardline:
I never said a believer cannot sin ...that is why i said that only those who are sick are in need of physicians and one who says he is not sick ie. Without sin ,does not need Christ.He dies daily,very true,same thing am saying. But this is what i really want you to pick out of this
We are told to strive for perfection by dieing daily to our sins,let me assume that i die daily and then reach perfection here on earth does that not make we 'whole' and no more in need of a physician?hence no need of Christ.
We die daily to rid of selves of the adamic nature in us which will continue until death..one who tries to rid himself of this adamic nature no longer has sin reigning in his members(that is no longer slave to sin/don't commit sins at will) hence being justified. what he battles now in Christ is this adamic nature which the process sanctifies him.
Now Corinthians chapter 3 verse 11 to end : 11 already sates the foundation which is being built
on which is Jesus christ.who builds on Jesus Christ if not the saved?
Are you also aware that the works of the unrighteous is an abomination unto God?
Hence the works being talked about here are the works of the saved.
Since both already built on Christ both are saved but the reward for works done is the
differnce.God wants us to do quality work for him here on earth and those works done will be
tested and rewarded and he who does his work fully will get his reward but he that does his work
shabbily will pass thru pains here on earth for him to repent and give his all in God service.
Also note that WORKS is different from FRUITS of the spirit.e.g love,joy,peace. Which is also different from the law e.g thou shalt not kill,commir adultery etc.
Works is what you do as a thru christian to promote the kingdom of Christ e.g evengelising(i my self lack in this aspect alot), comforting your brethens in despair,giving to the needy and also for the spreading of his gospel etc.
So after Judgement, you'll be sent back to earth to pass through your pain or what? St. Paul was clear, he said "for the day shall declare it". What day is he talking about? And note that he was writing to believers, yet he categorized them, he talked about the first group as he said "He shall receive his reward" 1cor. 3 vs 14. But to these ones we talk about he said " He shall be saved" 1cor.3 vs 15. Only the one who enters heaven is saved, for as long as you're on earth you are running the race. I do not know if you have more assurance of heaven than St. Paul, yet he said he puts his body under discipline for even he fears of disqualification, he said " lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected". Do you now wear Christ more than St. Paul? |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Ubenedictus(m): 7:08pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
Syncan:
Friend. Take a look again at the bold, are you saying that when those "who have put on Christ" offend God through sin then it is Christ that commits those sins? (God forbid). Forget about whether it is water baptism or not, that's not what we are studying here. What you are doing above is that you are saying that when someone put on Christ in baptism, it's either (1)he is not capable of committing sin-even those you had listed earlier-again throughout his/her life, or (2) he goes to heaven with such sins as it is Christ that must have committed them and Christ cannot be purged. You cannot pick and chose when to be Christ, you cannot be man when you're committing sin and become Christ when you die in order to avoid the repercussion. Believers do fall, they sin, you cannot say someone who is a believer cannot fall, that's why St. Paul says "Take heed lest you fall" 1Cor 10:12 and charges Christians thus "When ye sin so against brethren, and wound their WEAK conscience, ye sin against Christ" (1 Cor 8.12)- this was for something as small as eating meat sacrificed to Idol- he wasn't talking to unbelievers. When John the apostle was writing the epistle, he wrote to believers, yet he said this to them "If we CONFESS our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness" (1 John 1.9). This shows that believers can fall into sin, but a true believer does not want to sin, and "dies daily" in an effort to watch and keep himself from sin. Granted some attain that perfection before departing this earth, but many at their point of death, cannot be said to be perfect. It is you now who takes God for granted by assuming that you'll go into heaven like that, yet scripture says that such a one will be saved, yet so as by fire.
hmmm |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rightchuks(m): 8:31pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
if you are wise take heed, this is a false doctrine and teaching from the Antichrist. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by guyXander(m): 8:55pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
dhardline:
Romans 6 verse 6 and 12: knowing this,that our old man was crucified with Him,that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be SLAVES to sin.
12:Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body,that you should obey it in its lusts.
I highlighted the word 'slave' .once you are saved you no longer sin knowingly,you think over your
actions and words carefully,you do not allow sin reign in you or have control over you.You do what
ever it takes to avoid it in thoughts,word and deed.You don't pick the ones to do and the ones not
to do and then give excuses to yourself.but when you sin unknowingly the Lord will reveal it to you
and you repent of the sin, this way you continue in growth hidden in the righteousness of Christ
until death.Christianity is by experience not head knowledge and the Holy spirit guides us thru
this experience.Let me give you a list of sin we commonly ignore as written by Basilea Schlink.
6. ABSENT-MINDEDNESS
7. ANGER
8. AVOIDING THE CROSS
9. BEING ANNOYED
Bitterness see Irreconciliation
Bondage to People and Things of this Earth see
Worldly Love
10. BUSYNESS
11. CONCEIT
Conformity see Pleasing People
12. COWARDICE
Craving see Greed
13. CRITICIZING
14. CURIOSITY
Daydreaminig see Absent-mindedness
15. DESIRE FOR ATTENTION
Desire for Recognition see Desire for Attention
Desire to Dominate see Love of Power
16. DISBELIEF
Discouragement see Disbelief
17. DISOBEDIENCE
18. DISRESPECT
Dissension see Quarrelsomeness
19. EGOISM
20. ENVY
Gossip see Slander
21. GREED
Hard-heartedness see Mercilessness
Haughtiness see Pride
22. HYPOCRISY
23. IMPATIENCE
24. INDIFFERENCE
25. INGRATITUDE
26. IRRECONCILIATION
Irritability see Being Annoyed
27. JEALOUSY
Judging see Criticizing
Laziness see Softness
28. LOVE OF POWER
Lukewarmness see Indifference
29. LUST
30. LYING
31. MERCILESSNESS
32. MISTRUST
Negation of Authority see Disrespect
33. PLEASING PEOPLE
34. PRIDE
35. QUARRELSOMENESS
36. REBELLION
37. REPRESSION
38. RIDICULE
Scoffing see Ridicule
Secretiveness see Lying
39. SELFISHNESS
Self-Justification see Self-Righteousness
40. SELF-PITY
41. SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS
42. SELF-WILL
43. SLANDER
44. SOFTNESS
Stinginess see Selfishness
Suppression see Repression
45. TALKATIVENESS
46. TOUCHINESS
47. UNLOVINGNESS
48. UNRELIABILITY
Unwillingness to Suffer see Avoiding the Cross
Vanity see Conceit
49. WORLDLY LOVE
50. WORRYING Not that anything you said here is wrong but we'll have a longer talk for me to explain purgatory to you. You seem to understand it from an angle you are yet to believe. I usually don't like arguing about Christian thoughts. But understand this, purgatory is not as simply put as many people would tell you. In fact, many Christian are ill informed about purgatory. You talked about committing SIN KNOWINGLY, so that means you can commit SIN UNKNOWINGLY. Which means, there are two types. But I'm telling you: "nothing defiled shall enter even heaven yet so by fire". Even if you commit sin unknowingly, you cannot enter heaven in that state. And that's where purgatory comes in. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by dhardline(m): 9:16pm On Feb 22, 2016 |
guyXander:
Not that anything you said here is wrong but we'll have a longer talk for me to explain purgatory to you.
You seem to understand it from an angle you are yet to believe.
I usually don't like arguing about Christian thoughts.
But understand this, purgatory is not as simply put as many people would tell you.
In fact, many Christian are ill informed about purgatory.
You talked about committing SIN KNOWINGLY, so that means you can commit SIN UNKNOWINGLY.
Which means, there are two types.
But I'm telling you: "nothing defiled shall enter even heaven yet so by fire".
Even if you commit sin unknowingly, you cannot enter heaven in that state.
And that's where purgatory comes in. Ok.but kindly read thru my other posts on the topic,I also explained the works that gets purged by fire. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rawblings(m): 1:58pm On Feb 23, 2016 |
Syncan:
Lol. funny. Stop using the bible to decieve yourself. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE PURGATORY. THERE'S NO STORY RELATED TO PURGATORY. learn to read wide and not only catholic books.. Thanks. Ask the holy spirit to help you. If there was purgatory, we'd have known since
I wonder how then you think you can make heaven, where nothing impure can enter. How many times have you lacked respect in prayers, how many times have you omitted offering help to another for one reason or the other, how many times have you spoken to another uncharitably, how many times have you been vain in speech, fashion, thoughts or expressions, how many times have you missed prayers or was late for an appointment for flimsy reasons? Do you even acknowledge these as sin and ask forgiveness? You think you can go to heaven with these? When Scripture says that the Just man falls seven times a day Prov.24:16, it wasn't talking of killing and adultery. Again, when scripture talked of "Sins that do not lead to death" 1John 5:17 it acknowledged first that all sin is sin, but still noted that not all sin merit hell fire at the time of judgement. Rather at that time, such a person will be saved, yet so as by fire 1 Cor 3:15, before entering heaven for as you've already observed, nothing impure can enter there. That's where Purgatory comes in. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Syncan(m): 2:11pm On Feb 23, 2016 |
Rawblings:
Lol. funny. Stop using the bible to decieve yourself. THERE IS NOTHING LIKE PURGATORY. THERE'S NO STORY RELATED TO PURGATORY. learn to read wide and not only catholic books.. Thanks. Ask the holy spirit to help you. If there was purgatory, we'd have known since Kindly edit that post above, and own up to your own writings. Don't make it look as if I wrote this trash you have up here, that's called deceit. I am quoting scriptures and you can only continue to shout "there is nothing like purgatory" without scriptural backing, yet you call yourself a Christian. Now you say I should ask the Holy Spirit, as if it is your village spirits that have taught me to know scriptures this much, enough to confound you in your ignorance. There is Purgatory and We've always known. Even from the time of the Christian Martyrdom " [T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" ( The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]). |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rawblings(m): 6:06pm On Feb 26, 2016 |
Anything that's not in the bible is man made. Maccabees is not part of the bible because it's just a book that gives useful advice.. If there was anything like purgatory, we'd all know. Why is that it's only Catholics that accept it? I was once a catholic.. An Altar Server sef. I started studying the word of God and listening to TBN and i discovered i didnt belong there...... Syncan:
Kindly edit that post above, and own up to your own writings. Don't make it look as if I wrote this trash you have up here, that's called deceit. I am quoting scriptures and you can only continue to shout "there is nothing like purgatory" without scriptural backing, yet you call yourself a Christian. Now you say I should ask the Holy Spirit, as if it is your village spirits that have taught me to know scriptures this much, enough to confound you in your ignorance. There is Purgatory and We've always known.
Even from the time of the Christian Martyrdom
"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]). |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Aizenosa(m): 7:05pm On Feb 26, 2016 |
Rawblings:
Anything that's not in the bible is man made. Maccabees is not part of the bible because it's just a book that gives useful advice.. If there was anything like purgatory, we'd all know. Why is that it's only Catholics that accept it? I was once a catholic.. An Altar Server sef. I started studying the word of God and listening to TBN and i discovered i didnt belong there...... My friend even the Bible is man made please don't deceive yourself, read St Luke gospel 1 : 1 - 4, also, the Bible said study to show thyself approved. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rawblings(m): 9:20pm On Feb 26, 2016 |
The bible is not man made.... If it was, there would be errors. They were written by inspiration from the holy spirit.. About 40 people wrote the bible in scrolls at different locations ....... No need to argue Aizenosa:
My friend even the Bible is man made please don't deceive yourself, read St Luke gospel 1 : 1 - 4, also, the Bible said study to show thyself approved. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Syncan(m): 6:29am On Feb 27, 2016 |
Rawblings:
Anything that's not in the bible is man made. Maccabees is not part of the bible because it's just a book that gives useful advice.. If there was anything like purgatory, we'd all know. Why is that it's only Catholics that accept it? I was once a catholic.. An Altar Server sef. I started studying the word of God and listening to TBN and i discovered i didnt belong there...... Bla bla bla bla, yet you refuse to edit that post where you combined your speech and mine. Why should i continue this discussion with someone whose intent is to deceive? |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Aizenosa(m): 8:12am On Feb 27, 2016 |
Rawblings:
The bible is not man made.... If it was, there would be errors. They were written by inspiration from the holy spirit.. About 40 people wrote the bible in scrolls at different locations ....... No need to argue Please did Jesus Christ write any book or order anyone to write any book? The answer is NO, but He asked His disciples to preach the good news to all, now they found out that they have to attend their brethren and at the same time lead new conquest in new towns and villages hence they did their best in recording events of three (3) whole years and sometimes even tried helping their belief through writings to better explain what they know, hence u have what we know as Bible. The only things ever authorized to be written are the 10 commandments and the book of Revelations. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rawblings(m): 9:48am On Feb 27, 2016 |
Jesus didnt order anyone. After he left, the holy spirit gave them the inspiration to pen everything down for us to dwell on it Aizenosa:
Please did Jesus Christ write any book or order anyone to write any book?
The answer is NO, but He asked His disciples to preach the good news to all, now they found out that they have to attend their brethren and at the same time lead new conquest in new towns and villages hence they did their best in recording events of three (3) whole years and sometimes even tried helping their belief through writings to better explain what they know, hence u have what we know as Bible.
The only things ever authorized to be written are the 10 commandments and the book of Revelations. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Aizenosa(m): 11:08am On Feb 27, 2016 |
Rawblings:
Jesus didnt order anyone. After he left, the holy spirit gave them the inspiration to pen everything down for us to dwell on it Yes true but how come St Mark wrote about the Transfiguration of Jesus mentioning John was there but in John's gospel it cannot be found abi is the Holy Spirit an author of confusion, more over it has been stated more times than normal that the gospel of Thomas is one of the most accurate gospels but how come it isn't in the Bible and as u state the Holy Spirit inspired all writings or was Thomas not filled with the Holy Spirit. |
| Re: Is Purgatory In The Bible? by Rawblings(m): 2:14pm On Mar 06, 2016 |
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness Aizenosa:
Yes true but how come St Mark wrote about the Transfiguration of Jesus mentioning John was there but in John's gospel it cannot be found abi is the Holy Spirit an author of confusion, more over it has been stated more times than normal that the gospel of Thomas is one of the most accurate gospels but how come it isn't in the Bible and as u state the Holy Spirit inspired all writings or was Thomas not filled with the Holy Spirit. |
