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Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 6:59pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
The point, if it eludes you, is not that intellectual rigor and rationality should be discouraged. It is that the much-vaunted intellectual sophistication and rationality claimed by the New Atheists (and people of the same ideological bent) is conspicuously absent or simply underwhelming. This is revealed starkly when they attempt to reproduce a theistic philosophical argument with its appropriate deductions. In essence, most atheists, when they attempt to wrestle with the arguments from the other side of the aisle, seem to be really only capable of interacting with caricaturish and simplistic misrepresentations of the argument. It betrays a certain level of intellectual vacuousness that would make you question their pretensions to the contary. It seems that much of the contents of the new atheist arsenal are simply appeals to ridicule and sophistry. godfather, you hit the nail on the head gbam! For example - i doubt jayoriginal bothered to read what he was copying and pasting . . . apparently it wasnt necessary to determine if the 100 points raised were rational as long as it ridiculed the theistic viewpoint. ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN, a.k.a. GOD OF THE GAPS, a.k.a. TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I) (1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex? (2) Only God could have made them so complex. (3) Therefore, God exists. first off, isnt the atheist counter logic here even more ridiculous? How does the atheist aim to prove that such complexities like the cell just appeared out of random? What is the atheists logical explanation for the above beyond "we dont know"? It takes far more faith to believe human body systems appeared out of thin air than a belief in God. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by jayriginal: 9:13pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
JeSoul: Actually what we have is confirmation bias (I will stick with any person or website or thing etc that agrees with my point. I will also only look for evidence that supports my point of view and ignore counter evidence, even if such counter evidence is stronger). In short, if it doesnt agree with me, ignore it. What are the ultimate cop outs of christianity ? Faith, revelation, personal experience etc. Those dont make for rational analysis. How can your revelation be superior to mine ? More on that soon. This happens in real life not just in religious matters (not the revelation bit though). Actually, like I mentioned earlier, Enigmas first internet session was with Joagbaje, a fellow christian. Christians arent united (in general now) and each bases his own belief, on his own revelation. Who's revelation is better ? How do you test personal feelings ? Going to the source should be a good idea, except that both sides have access to the same source and can interpret it in light of their doctrine. I agree with the misunderstanding bit. Calling Dawkins a priest though ? JeSoul:Actually Jesoul, let me amend that slightly "Enigma is a lovely guy once you agree with him ". Ahh, that sounds much more accurate. Enigma:Indeed! Only wimps come to the internet and "thug it out" . What a joke ! davidylan:Actually I did read what I pasted here. If you check the first 100 from the link, you will see that I omitted some of them. Did you read the so called 30 keys that you and your theists were praising ? Did you see when Jesoul commented that Buda was an atheist ? Did you see when someone commented that these so called 30 keys with a little tweaking coud be applied to Christians ? If I paste something here and you dont understand my intentions, ask me and I'll tell you. Dont make assumptions. You guys should lighten up abeg. An atheist was humorous enough to provide you with funny material to use against the atheists. The christians were happy. I was surprised at this. Now we are flipping the coin why the bad belle ? For that internet hulk that prides himself as an intellectual, his feelings have been hurt and he responds the only way he knows how. When I saw the list for the first time, I had several chuckles (the original 30). That is as it should be. Of course, some folks have no sense of humour, so here we are. You are assuming every atheist champions the theory of evolution. Not all do. I have read about it, and I hold it to be a more credible explanation than the creation story, but thats as far as it goes. It may be that the average christian feels that in dismissing one belief system, it must be replaced by another. That is not true. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by plaetton: 9:15pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
@Enigma: You have made few references to my posting of the Willie Lynch Letter a while ago and called me dishonest and liar for posting the letter. Well, if you are up to it, I would love to have a cordial discussion/debate on that subject. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 9:19pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
^^ What would you like to discuss about it? Edit: Now I've read a post of yours like this https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-804350.32.html#msg9586805 I'm not sure I want to bother anymore. I really don't see the point. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by plaetton: 10:15pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
Enigma:Did you find anything offensive or out of place on that post? I just wanted to state that prior to my posting the willy Lynch letter, I had never heard of any doubts about its authenticity. Since I first came acroos it in my school days, I have clung to it much like a faith. Now that you raised the question of its authenticity, I could not care less.Is it the authenticity of the document itself? the source of the document or the authenticity of the contents that bothered you? For me,its like an article of faith much like a religious faith that we so much debate about. The contents of the document encapsulate, for me,the black man's past and present trauma and dilemma on this planet. Slavery trade is a historical fact. Slaves working 364 days a year on plantations in the caribean is a historical fact. That there were experts who , for a fee,traveled from plantation to plantation to show slave owners how to get the most from their slaves, is also a historical fact. That these slave consultants outlined a methodology or system to mentally and spiritually emasculate the slaves so as to best harness their labour is also a historical fact. Whether thier names were willy Lynch or john doe is irrelevant. The fact that the mentaly dibilitating effects of such systematic and deliberate psychological conditioning are abundantly manifest among African and the Diaspora blacks is proof of its authenticity. If there are questions about the source of the document, so what? even if it is a forgery, I commend the person who did it. All races embelish their histories to suit whatever psychological conditoning they deem best for their peoples. Why should blacks not do the same if it can elevate our collective consciousness beyond the petty differences we so often sqaubble about and hate each other for?. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 10:22pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
Every body knows the horrors of the slave trade and all that --- just like everybody knows the insanity and consequences of corruption in Nigeria. As for the Willie Lynch letter, now that questions have been raised as to its authenticity, it is now up to you to do the necessary legwork on that matter. Finally: it is the same thing with a lot of things I have seen you say about Christianity and even its history and biblical history; you are simply wrong and misinformed! When questions are thus raised about your understanding, then it behoves you to go back and check if you have your facts right ---- that is one of the ways we know if you are genuinely interested in discussion. Not when you are stating things wrong dogmatically while at the same time wrongly throwing accusations of dogmatism and all sorts at others. All the best. EDIT Addendum: if you take the attitude that you have a right to be using a fake document and to embellish things ------ well, that amounts to intellectual dishonesty ----- and this is what I've been pointing out for a long time and now with this thread --- that is what evangelical atheists do! It is basically relying on LIES along with caricatures etc to try to discredit Christianity! And that my friend is the very reason why I have no time for evangelical atheists, militant atheists, fundamental atheists, atheist fundamentalists and whatever else they are called. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 10:27pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
plaetton: So it's alright for you to believe that the fictional willie lynch letter is real regardless of facts but they can't believe the bible is real? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by plaetton: 11:32pm On Nov 18, 2011 |
The Willi Lynch letter has not been establish to be fictional. My freiend here just brought those doubts to my attention. Even if the documents are non-authentic, the contents are certainly not fictional. They are valid and valuable.That is why I compared it to religious faith. If they proven to be non-authentic, the best that I would do would be to refrain from using it in a public debate. I dont have a big problem with embelishing our history as a people. European history is much embelished, american historty is much ebelished, chinese history is much embelished, jewish history i smuch embelished. It's the norm rather than the exception. The yoruba creation epic is more colourful and closer to home. We should embelish it and teach it in our schools as an alternate history It time we Africans wake up. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 12:17am On Nov 19, 2011 |
plaetton: The willie lynch letter is fake. The only people who insist on it being real are afrocentric black nationalists like farrakhan and other cospiracy theorists. You know, the same kind of people who spout consipiracies like "behold the pale horse". Also, studies by linguists show that the words used were from the 20th century and not from the 18th century like we were meant to believe. If someone brought a letter to you and claimed it was from the 1980's, would you believe the person if the letter contained words like internet, iPad, or texting language like LOL and OMG? So before you keep insisting that the willie lynch letter might be real, just keep in mind that Farrakhan also believes in alien motherships and that a black scientist named Yacob or some sh#t created white people. When history is embellished it becomes myth and schools meant for education shouldn't present myth as history. An example is American thanksgiving and the embellished history of how the feast happened but in History classes the true story is told as best as possible. If you want to elevate our culture and mythology, then a class should be created to study world mythologies. Then our myths can be taught alongside jewish myths, chinese myths, indian myths etc so future generations won't be under the impression that the jews are some kind of special humans created by a god whose existence is limited to their own embellished history. We don't have to create myths and call it history, lets just be honest and call other people's embellished histories what they really are . Myths. For example, christians can claim by faith that the creator of the universe wandered around in a desert with some people for 40 years but reality and academic research has shown that the jews never escaped slavery in Egypt nor did they embark on a 40 year march through the desert. There were probably catastrophic floods in different parts of the world in the past due to the Earth's changing climate but that doesn't mean that the jews' story about a man and his floating wooden zoo is a historical fact that should be taught in reputable educational institutions. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 12:26am On Nov 19, 2011 |
To further understand how the style of writing can be used to determine when a work was written, search for excerpts from Moby D#ck and take note of how the author writes, then search for excerpts from any book from the last decade and you'll see the difference between the 21st century and 19th century. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 1:00am On Nov 19, 2011 |
Concerning christian apologetics and the various "arguments" for God's existence, Why do theists have to argue to prove that their gods exist. If you claim god exists and there is undeniable proof, then they shouldn't be any arguments whatsoever about your god being real. The universe is not evidence that your god exist and whatever your particular holy book says isn't proof neither. The complexity of a cell is as much an evidence for God as it is an evidence for Super Aliens who seeded life on planet earth. We don't argue about the existence of the sun and the resultant photosynthesis and warming of the planet because all we have to do is gaze up to see the evidence. We don't argue about the importance of water because we can see what the absence of water can do to a landscape. We don't have arguments about Alexander the great because we have a historical documents attesting to this fact. My point being, things that exist do not need arguments, they can be easily proven without resorting to complicated arguments. No one argues about gravity, do they? Relativity might even be wrong but we KNOW that what goes up must come down (except maybe at lagragian points) We argue about ideas and not things that exist, so god is an idea. A very human idea. 1 Like |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by jayriginal: 8:23am On Nov 19, 2011 |
Martian:Nice ! |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by manmustwac(m): 9:24am On Nov 19, 2011 |
@martian Well said now the typical Christian apologists reply will be can you see pain? Can you see joy? Can you see air? Blah blah blah. Or you have to be born again to see or feel the presence of god |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 9:48am On Nov 19, 2011 |
Ah, now time for another interjecting observation. This observation has already been reflected in other material on the thread but it is important to highlight it once again. The evangelical atheists* want to abolish or eradicate all other religions so that in the end there will be only one religion ---- the (evangelical) atheism religion. This is why the duplicitous fool atheists use the fraudulent two pronged approach: (a) seek to eradicate other religions from "public" arenas; and (b) first establish within the law that atheism is a religion, then pretend it is only a religion in limited "contexts" and for "limited purposes" -- and therefore it can be promoted and advocated in public arenas --- unlike other religions. They are basically diabolical fraudsters! * aka militant atheists or fundamentalist atheists or atheist fundamentalists. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 9:49am On Nov 19, 2011 |
@ manmustwac You asked me a question on another thread; I answered; and you kept schtum? What's up with that? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by manmustwac(m): 10:05am On Nov 19, 2011 |
Don't mind me I can be lazy when it comes to replying posts. But I promise to reply you later today |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 10:07am On Nov 19, 2011 |
Cool! Once upon a time a loooong time ago, I used to play tennis at those courts near you. Are they still there? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 11:54am On Nov 20, 2011 |
Interesting piece on "Psychology of Atheism" (perhaps a bit iffy in parts but useful overall): http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/psychology-of-atheism/ Extract Many people have psychological reasons for atheism. Factors of upbringing, sins of believers, etc., may be barriers to belief. and The point of the profiling of atheists is to remove psychological motives from explaining religious belief. The ad hominem attack on theism posits an immature need for support, but there are psychological causes for atheism as well as theism. So when the atheist attacks a theists beliefs for being childish, the theist can counter, ``and so’s your old man!” So, this argument more or less levels the playing field as far as psychological explanations of belief/disbelief are concerned. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 12:27pm On Nov 20, 2011 |
Atheists tear up the Bible: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/calif-atheists-rip-up-bible-verses-during-anti-christian-beach-protest/ http://athens.patch.com/articles/tearing-up-the-bible-in-california-9618ad66 Notes: - Of course evangelical* atheists are fundamentalist even as some of them hypocritically condemn the American "pastor" burning the Koran for -- fundamentalism! - Let's see if some evangelical atheists would now raise one of their own mantras in defence i.e. the "No true Scotsman fallacy" - So much for Christians and Christianity being "intolerant" when such idiotic things as tearing up a Bible are simply taken in stride Extract The demonstration was led by more than a dozen members of a humanist group called Backyard Skeptics at the base of the Huntington Beach pier in Southern California. * Meanwhile the alternative titles for evangelical atheists are growing by the day! - Fanatical Atheists - Aggressive Atheists - Hysterical Atheists - Militant Atheists - Fundamental Atheists - Atheist Fundamentalists |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Thelstan(m): 6:19pm On Nov 27, 2011 |
I am totally in love with this thread! Here is my favourite quote so far by 1Godfather
And I love this too, by Enigma
Jayriginal kindly stop spamming the thread with posts from that website naa. We have seen the link and extracts already. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by jayriginal: 12:24pm On Nov 28, 2011 |
Thelstan:Audi alteram partem |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Thelstan(m): 3:38pm On Nov 28, 2011 |
jayriginal: You have posted extracts of the argument from the other side. 100 such points. AND you have provided links to the website. I doubt that we need to wait till you post the entire contents of that website and maybe its sister websites till we have heard the other side. I'm certain if we were all posting all the data from external sites there would be no viable discussion at all. |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by jayriginal: 8:17pm On Nov 28, 2011 |
Thelstan:If had wanted to post the entire 666 points, I'd have done so at once. Copying and pasting isnt exactly difficult is it ? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Thelstan(m): 8:40pm On Nov 28, 2011 |
Actually if you posted as much as 300 at once, you would probably have been flagged by the spambot and banned from posting. *shrugs* |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 9:14am On Dec 10, 2011 |
One I forgot previously but which really just has to be on this thread! Hmmm, some posters don really show this people oh; in fact e get soteeeey my good friend manmustwac vex lock the thread. Note: I should say reference in the quote to "atheists" is better understood as to "evangelical/militant/aggressive/fanatical/etc atheists" From here (with additional emphases) https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-740780.128.html#msg8983332 [b] |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by harakiri(m): 11:45am On Dec 10, 2011 |
Imagine people who have zero understanding of the word "ATHEIST" means giving "keys" of becoming an "effective atheist". How dumb can people really be? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 3:02pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
harakiri: This cartoon describes them perfectly.
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Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 3:14pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
Why is Enigma so insecure in his faith that he has to resort to mocking "militant atheists"? Did an "evangelical atheist" steal his woman? Why is he so upset about "evangelical atheists"? Is his life in danger because of "evangelical atheists? Is his livelihood threatened because of evangelical atheists? Or, is he just mad because evangelical atheists don't agree with him and vocalize their feelings? Lets see what an "evangelical atheist" looks like, so maybe we can get to the root of Enigma's ire. *ninja edit*
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Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by harakiri(m): 4:11pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
Martian: He's an attention seeker. Nothing more. Not worth the time of day (or night). |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 5:34pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
E dey pain them! Someone asking why Enigma is concerned about evangelical/militant/fanatical/etc atheists cannot look in the mirror and ask why the evangelical/militant/fanatical/etc atheists are obsessed with Christianity? |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Nobody: 7:07pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
Enigma: The guy in the mirror is not an evangelical atheist. He just thinks you and your invisible mute of a god are funny. Enigma: |
Re: 30 Keys To Being An Effective Atheist by Enigma(m): 7:53pm On Dec 10, 2011 |
^^^ Obsession with Christian God by an evangelical/aggressive/militant/fanatical/etc atheist. Point proven! QED |
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