texazzpete,

on the flip side, i've seen earlier posts where this txlonghorn character was labelled as an 'a*selicker' and a US lover desperately trying for a US visa. when it emerged the fellow had actualy become a US citizen more abuse was heaped on him for his choice.

Easyy, asked a simple question and even gave good points as to why he thought George Bush should face trial. Tx comes along _{obviously he doesn't think the same as Easyy and a couple of others here}, does not give any reason why George Bush shouldn't face trial. Instead he starts insulting the first poster 

but in 99% of that happening from the US forces, it's been a tragic mistake, totally unplanned and punished by both a millitary tribunal or an increasingly vocal american media. On the othe rhand, group like Al Qaeda plan a 100% deliberate kill rate of civillians. Is it then fair to lump the US and Al Qaeda in the same group as 'terrorists'?

well, their mistakes are just too much. we are talking about human life here.
I think its fair to put both in the same category. Some americans might not think their actions in Iraq is terroristical, but it is. First and foremost they didn't have any right to go fighting a war in Iraq. I'm sure if you lived in Iraq you wouldn't find the actions of the US funny, i know i wouldn't.

For that matter, do you really want to know how many civillians were killed by ecomog forces in sierra leone and liberia? why is no one calling for Obasanjo to be tried, after what he did to the villagers in Odi? isn' t it hypocrisy to salute one as your president and then call another who did the same thing 'a terrorist warmonger'?

Well, you didnt see me saluting OBJ _{so not a fan of his} 
But the thread is "Should George Bush Also Face Trial".
And yes once again Bush is a warmonger. He had alternatives, but he chose to go to war. In fact as stated earlier by someone else he campaigned for it, and kept on preaching on why the war was necessary.

Nice talking to you again, nilla. last time we discussed it was on the israel vs hezbollah thread, and that was a lot more heated than this.

its nice talking to you again too 
yeah and i miss all them other guys too especially chxta and Afam.        _{now see what you caused, I'm crying}

:p

Trials ke? He does not need that, he needs to go straight to jail as his lies are obvious.

I am surprised that the Nigerias that were ready to fight on behalf of Bush and the US have not deemed it fit to defend the man after his own people voted against the republicans and were his seat on the line he would have been long gone.

hidden agenda

Which hiden agenda? Another trash at nairaland. Any reasonable person in any part of the world, irrespective of religious, political or ethnical difference will destroy terrorism and its promoters and supporters seeing the basterdised act carried on innocent, happy, educated and social beings on Sep.11th. in the US. The hunt for terrorists in Iraq and other terrorists' haven in the world will continue. Which innocent people dying in Iraq are you talking about? Have you the facts that US led troop in Iraq are responsible for the casualty? I hate aguements not based on facts.
Meanwhile, you go and arrest and jail Bush.

Hello All, I see this debate is quite hot. Pls permit me to chip in a new dimension b4 its too late. I have a lot of respect for the Americans but unfortunately they have cruel humans (if they are at all) at the healms of affairs. Surely Bush was wrong and should if possible be made to face the full consequences of his major mistakes.

Somehow, my concern has shifted from the tragedy in Iraq to another looming catastrophy in Iran. The White House is preparing to lunch a nuclear attack on that country. It sound like a paradox to me that the prolifiration of nuclear bomb will be checkmated by another nuclear bomb attack.

", The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney’s office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons. Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites, "http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html

That site might look old but you'll be shocked to know that the  cards are still on the table. In a recent article by Seymour Hersh (award winning investigative journalist and a regular contributor to the New Yorker Mag.) "THE IRAN PLANS" “Nuclear planners go through extensive training and learn the technical details of damage and fallout—we’re talking about mushroom clouds, radiation, mass casualties, and contamination over years. This is not an underground nuclear test, where all you see is the earth raised a little bit, ,  http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact"

The excuse they give is that Iran is on the verge of making a nuclear bomb, even though the country has consistently deny it and according to CNN "Iran has announced it will allow foreign tourists to visit its nuclear facilities -- a novel approach to calming the world's fears about its nuclear program. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/09/insider.irantourism/index.html"

I'm tempted to ask how much civil can a facility be if it can be open to tourists? I know alot of people will not by that. I am certainly the last that will ask the world to close its eye on such an issue. But the well respected I.A.E.A (International Atomic Energy Agency) said it has so far found nothing to suggest that Iran is close to making nuclear bomb. Just like they said in the run-off to the ivasion of Iraq.  The Agency turned out to be right. Not even the White House has come forth with concrete evidence. Yet, they have already started the process of rocking the peace in that country. In the earlier article by Hersh, he said

"If the order were to be given for an attack, the American combat troops now operating in Iran would be in position to mark the critical targets with laser beams, to insure bombing accuracy and to minimize civilian casualties. As of early winter, I was told by the government consultant with close ties to civilians in the Pentagon, the units were also working with minority groups in Iran, including the Azeris, in the north, the Baluchis, in the southeast, and the Kurds, in the northeast. The troops “are studying the terrain, and giving away walking-around money to ethnic tribes, and recruiting scouts from local tribes and shepherds,” the consultant said. One goal is to get “eyes on the ground”—quoting a line from “Othello,” he said, “Give me the ocular proof.” The broader aim, the consultant said, is to “encourage ethnic tensions” and undermine the regime. "

The least we can do is to pray for the democrates for God to lead them so they can give the world some peace. b'cos this war won't do anybody any good and in some quaters it is called the "Armageddon" b'cos of the impact it will has not only on the stability in that region, world economy, but also the world existence

Which innocent people dying in Iraq are you talking about? Have you the facts that US led troop in Iraq are responsible for the casualty? I hate aguements not based on facts.

The reproduced post above is as stupid as it is senseless.

That a human being will have the shameless guts to ask if innocent people are dying in Iraq is really mind boggling.

And the poster uses a byline - To God be the glory, what mockery of our God. Little wonder even those that call God commit the worst crimes in the land.

@ gist,

nice post.

Johnny:

Which hiden agenda? Another trash at nairaland. Any reasonable person in any part of the world, irrespective of religious, political or ethnical difference will destroy terrorism and its promoters and supporters seeing the basterdised act carried on innocent, happy, educated and social beings on Sep.11th. in the US. The hunt for terrorists in Iraq and other terrorists' haven in the world will continue. Which innocent people dying in Iraq are you talking about? Have you the facts that US led troop in Iraq are responsible for the casualty? I hate aguements not based on facts. Meanwhile, you go and arrest and jail Bush.

Please can you show us the facts that innocent people are not dying

Johnny:

Which hiden agenda? Another trash at nairaland. Any reasonable person in any part of the world, irrespective of religious, political or ethnical difference will destroy terrorism and its promoters and supporters seeing the basterdised act carried on innocent, happy, educated and social beings on Sep.11th. in the US. The hunt for terrorists in Iraq and other terrorists' haven in the world will continue. Which innocent people dying in Iraq are you talking about? Have you the facts that US led troop in Iraq are responsible for the casualty? I hate aguements not based on facts.
Meanwhile, you go and arrest and jail Bush.

Your first point about terrorism - fair enough, anyone will love to destroy all forms of terrorism. PLEASE DEFINE TERRORISM, then, we will be able to identify who can/should be labelled a terrorist. Whether it be an attack in NY or an attack in Bangladesh, if it is terrorism, it is terrorism. Why do you think that only attacks against certain countries/people should be labelled terrorism?

There were no terrorists in Iraq until George 'war monger' Bush decided to destroy every infrastructure there hence making it a fertile ground for terrorism.

The fact you deny the death of innocent people in Iraq shows the kind of heart you have. Even George 'war monger' Bush has never denied the death of innocent people in Iraq, several of whom are women and children. I bet you did not hear about the sexual horrors American troops bring to bear on Iraqi civilians.

I do not have the powers to arrest and jail 'war monger' Bush but if the world was democratic, George Bush would have been voted into the gallows.

Well, just got back from Iraq less than 4 weeks ago. I grew up in Naija and actually was a proud student of OAU before I left. I hate getting into issues that deal with this war or whatever you want to call it but I could tell you things from experience. Been to Iraq twice so there's nothing hidden from me. When you go to Iraq and back, you'll understand better. There is no fine line between this issue. If anyone have any specific question I'll be more than willing to answer but please try not to point fingers.

Easyy:

Your first point about terrorism - fair enough, anyone will love to destroy all forms of terrorism. PLEASE DEFINE TERRORISM, then, we will be able to identify who can/should be labelled a terrorist. Whether it be an attack in NY or an attack in Bangladesh, if it is terrorism, it is terrorism. Why do you think that only attacks against certain countries/people should be labelled terrorism?

There were no terrorists in Iraq until George 'war monger' Bush decided to destroy every infrastructure there hence making it a fertile ground for terrorism.

The fact you deny the death of innocent people in Iraq shows the kind of heart you have. Even George 'war monger' Bush has never denied the death of innocent people in Iraq, several of whom are women and children. I bet you did not hear about the sexual horrors American troops bring to bear on Iraqi civilians.

I do not have the powers to arrest and jail 'war monger' Bush but if the world was democratic, George Bush would have been voted into the gallows.

Easyy,
Have you been there are what you see on the TV? It's like saying someone is destroying Ajegunle (not to offend anyone), what else do you have to destroy there? I listen to some so called analyts sometimes and they sound so ignorant. Always remember what the media is for; to get people's interest, make money and sometimes to promote there interest

Layifioren,

Are you then saying that because some people live in poverty, their lives deserve to be made even more miserable?

Are you going to justify the atrocities committed by US invaders by saying that Saddam was a bad leader?

Would you be happy if America had invaded Nigeria during the Abacha era and destroyed every infrastructure, killing and maiming several thousands of people in the process?

Easyy,
You started this topic thus I know you already have your opinion about the situation and I'm not here to try to change your mind. All I'm doing here is give you vital info from someone that has been there done it. So, because the Saddam Hussein loyalists that fought the Coalition forces were over-riden by a more powerful force; it's now America's fault? It wasn't like they held their hands, the choose to fight and they face the consequences. Every conflict always have collateral damage. Unfortunately alot of innocents have died there. I don't think it's a new news that GWB has admitted that he was falsely alarm by the weapon of mass destruction. So if America has come to Nigeria to take over from Abacha, would a reasonable person had stopped them? Ask yourself that question. How many people died in Nigeria due to Abacha's misdeed? Infact, how many people have died in Nigeria due to the LEADERS misdeed? I don't think any outside force could beat how much WE as Nigerians punish ourselves. Are you telling me that you would have been loyal to Abacha if another country that you know is more powerful tries to take over be it that they are coming for a just or unjust call? Don't get me wrong here Easyy, I understand some things you are saying but goodness, WAR CRIME!

There is something that is forgotten in this debate,most people who die in Iraq die at the hands of fellow Iraqis.Most of the bloodshed is being perpetrated by Iraqis against each other in a sectarian conflict.

For many years Iraq was a quasi-apartheid nation where the Sunni minority ran things to the exclusion of the majority Shia and Kurdish populations,now Iraq is reaping the fruits of this arrangement.

Every single poll done of Iraqis show that say that the invasion was worth it.ithink we should leave it at that.Nobody said anything when Shias and Kurds where being masssacred in the 80s and 90s,now everybody is saying things should have been left the way it was.

If Kurds were as influential on world opinion as Arabs,most people will be welcoming the removal of Sad
dam

Layifioren, let's put a little more intelligence into this. Are you saying that it is good that everyone everywhere should never fight back in the face of invasion/oppresion by a mightier force?

I dont want to believe you're trying to stste here that people should never fight up and fight what causes if they face a mightier foe. In that case, you are saying that because America is militarily powerful, every nation should just submit to every whim and caprice of George 'war monger' Bush.

Please tell me what should happen if, in some years' time, any silly person ruling a country discovered some very powerful weapon that makes it mightier in military terms than America. Should the whole world just dance to the dictates of the of the silly man?

I am astounded that you are positing a rule by might in the world. Is that the way any civilised human being should reason?

4play,

There's no disputing the fact that Sadman Hussein was a crazy leader and that his leadership was despicable. However, is that enough justification for the dehumanisation of Iraqis by America?

Now Now, dont tell me about subjective polls.

Do you ever see the reacton of Iraqi people whenever there has been an American casualty? That tells me more than the doctored subjective polls.

If you say that people are dying at the hands of fellow Iraqis, how can you say with the same breadth that the people are happy with the American decimation of their entire nation? Even when Saddam was leader, they had electricity, they had functional hospitals, they went shopping without getting bombed, they had running water, they had jobs, Now all of those things have been taken away, are you so callous as to say that their lives are better?

Yes, Saddam was evil BUT what has now been foistered on Iraqis is anarchy.

Please dont mention democracy, who wants democracy when you cant walk about? who wants a democracy that sets out to destroy your way of life? who wants a democracy that allows suicide bombers to have a field day? who wants a democracy that gives you leaders who are imposed by foreigners?

What you're trying to say is that they don't have real democracy.
Maybe they should divide the country or something? They are in a war afterall.

Johnny:
More people have died in Iraq than the people who died on September 11, so Bush's action wasn't justified.

@Easy
How logical is it to say that opinion polls of Iraqis are less reliable than pics of Iraqis celebrating American deaths even when some of those polls were conducted by anti-war groups?

Iraq does not have any less electricity or water supply than before the war.It is true that is the case with Baghdad and Sunni areas but that is not true of the South and the north were most people live.Besides where was the outcry when Saddam was diverting resources to Sunni areas.?It shows how influential Sunni Arabs are on world opinion.

The fact of the matter is that 85 precent of all violence in Iraq occurs in the 4 Sunni provinces which include BAGHDAD where all most all journalists are based.The remaining 14 provinces are relatively quiet.

You asked who wants democracy.Apparently most Iraqis do.Most of them braved suicide bombers to go and vote in unprecendented numbers risking their lives in the process.Who are you to tell them that they do need democracy

Everytime there is a sudden removal of a despotic system,there is bloodshed in the following years.Remember South Africa in the early 90s.Remember all the bloodshed and the claims that the it showed that the apartheid regime no matter how bad was not really bad compared to the new era.

What we are seeing in Iraq is not new.It happened in Northern Iraq when with American help they freed themselves from the Saddam regime in 1991.For 5 years they were plunged into a fullscale civil war,but today Kurdish Iraq is a more prosperous area than Nigeria and is one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

You asked me whether i see how Iraqis celebrate American deaths,more importantly perhaps u did not see how they celebrated Saddam's death sentence.Did u sense from their celebration a regret that Sadddam should have remained in power?

4play, thanks for the civil response.

How many Iraqis do you think will have the guts to say openly to a foreign official that they are not happy with their presence? I'd rather take spontaneous reactions such as happens when an american is killed.

I have spoken with quite a few Iraqis and the general idea I get is that the whole country has been decimated by the invaders. There seems to be a consensus that these infrastures were widely available before the American led invasion. The fact that you said Baghdad had more electricity before the invasion is enough to say that there is less electricity. If the capital which is the nerve centre is devoid of electricity, of what use is it in villages with no resources and industry?

Iraqis went to vote because they had no choice. They went to vote for peace; but do they have the peace now? They had hoped there country would at least be restored to it's former state with a new government. They know better now. Tell any people anywhere that there are elections and they'll vote. It's a natural thing and it is NOT and indication that they accept the American decimation of their land.

Was America invited to help remove Saddam Hussein? Did America invade Iraq just to remove Saddam? NO. America invaded under false claims of WMD!

Did America have to bastardise and destroy every standing institution in Iraq? NO. Why did they destroy every insitution in Iraq? Personally, I think it's part of Bush's agenda to ensure that America controls everything in Iraq thereby gaining a foothold in the middle east before entending it influence further.

@Easy
How possible is that most Iraqis do not feel free to express their opinions to polling officials ,who by the way are fellow Iraqis ,but feel free to celebrate at the scene of an atttack on American troops.Suppose Nigerian troops are killed in an attack in the Niger-delta,can Niger-Deltans go to the scene and celebrate ?You will be crazy to do that wouldn't you?But nothing stops us from expressing our opinion to the presss about our disatisfaction with our govt. Do u see Chechens celebrating when Russian troops die? Do u know why?because they cannot dare

If the point u are trying to make is that Iraqis feel afraid to express their opinion about the Americans u probably don't know much about the place.Everyday in the UK,the TV is filled with pics of Iraqis expresssiing their opnion about Americans which by the way they could not do earlier with their previous govt.The much missed Saddam,who is so misssed that his people burst out in celebration when he was captured and when he was sentenced to death

U said that it is more important that Baghdad has electricity than the provinces.U forget that Iraq's revenue-90 percent is derived from oil.Where is the oil?Every single barrel of it comes from the provinces where most people live.Who deserves more electricity,the place where the greatest number of people live and the source of alll the countreis wealth.IT is like saying that Abuja deserves more spending than the Niger-Delta .

Iraqis more than anyone did everything possible to facilitate the US invasion of their country.The Iraqi National Congress ,SCIRI,the 2 kurdish patrties all contributed men and resources to the invasion.Some of them went to the extent of concoting elaborate stories of WMD to get the Americans to invade.

I am not saying that Iraqis like the continued prescence of American troops , All am saying that they welcomeed the intial overthrow of Saddam and see the continued prescence of US tRoops as a neccesary evil to stop full scale civil war from erupting

and i still maintain, isn't it hypocrisy to agitate for the trial of George Bush for his 'war mongering' while failing to call for Obasanjo's trial for the Odi massacres and numerous atrocities committed by naija soldiers in ECOMOG?
Heck, have any of you even called for the trial of the police IG for the killings oF nigerians by 'accidental discharge'?
Hating Americans can be soooo lucrative for some,

4Play, I see the news regularly. I also happen to know a few Iraqis who are better positioned than you to tell me what is actually on ground.

I appreciate your other point BUT no one is saying that the overthrow of Saddam is a bad thing. What we are saying is that George 'war monger' Bush lied his way to war. Of course, the presence of foreign troops is now required to keep the murderous situation slightly controlled, not that it is controlled at the moment.

If, however, the US never invaded Iraq, there would be no need for any American presence there. People wont be dying daily the way they are being killed now. The situation was not this way when the Iraq police was there on it's own without American and allied presence.

texazzpete:

and i still maintain, isn't it hypocrisy to agitate for the trial of George Bush for his 'war mongering' while failing to call for Obasanjo's trial for the Odi massacres and numerous atrocities committed by naija soldiers in ECOMOG?
Heck, have any of you even called for the trial of the police IG for the killings oF nigerians by 'accidental discharge'?
Hating Americans can be soooo lucrative for some,

Let's put some intelligence into use here. This thread is about George 'war monger' Bush not about OBJ. I'm sure there are several threads about Obasanjo here otherwise feel free to start one. Besides, Obasanjo has not been responsible for a thousandth of the number of deaths that George 'war monger' Bush has been responsible for all over the world.

texazzpete:

Hating Americans can be soooo lucrative for some,

Get a grip. Where is ther hatred of Americans here? I have American relatives and I'm sure many here are same. If you dont know how to put things properly, please refrain from using wrong sentences.

This is about George 'war monger' Bush's war crimes and NOT about Americans!

It is commonly assumed that when a lie is told over and over again that people may passively accept it as truth.

The statement by 4 Play that every single poll conducted in Iraq favours the invasion of Iraq is a blatant lie.

While I have not been to Iraq before neither do I watch Al Jazeera, CNN have reported results of polls and surveys carried out in Iraq regarding the invasion and the results showed that many Iraqis were in favour of the invasion in the early days of the invasion and over 60% have consistently voted against the invasion at least for the past 7 months mainly due to the level of carnage in the country.

While trying to make our points we must avoid going overboard with statements that are flat wrong or at best misleading.

Afam, Thanks for that piece of information

@Easyy,

Thanks, we really do not have many options as regards making sure we discuss issues based on facts, it helps everyone but those that do not like truth.

Enjoy!

All said and done, and in as much as we are all entitled to our own opinion, the problem (not war) in Iraq is justifiable as long as Saddam was removed and democracy instituted in the country. The removal of Saddam was good news to Iraqis and all lovers of democracy worldwide. The death of the innocent civilians which we so much talk about is being brought about by fugutives, Islamic fanatics, suicide bombers and oppressors of the lesser beings. Of course, I can never fault these casualties on the American - led troope. At least watching CNN and listening to other international media houses like BBC and VOA, I have never seen a scene where the coalition forces was shooting at the helpless Iraqis as we are being made to belive here. No! The people are killing themselves. The continual stay of the troop in Iraq is to protect the poor, the weak, women and children who have become victims of the immoral and inhumane act of Saddam's loyalists. Cannibalism, you may say.
My final post on this topic.

The reproduced post above is as stupid as it is senseless.

Afam, you should have been more sensible and employ a little decorum.

Johnny:

All said and done, and in as much as we are all entitled to our own opinion, the problem (not war) in Iraq is justifiable as long as Saddam was removed and democracy instituted in the country. The removal of Saddam was good news to Iraqis and all lovers of democracy worldwide. The death of the innocent civilians which we so much talk about is being brought about by fugutives, Islamic fanatics, suicide bombers and oppressors of the lesser beings. Of course, I can never fault these casualties on the American - led troope. At least watching CNN and listening to other international media houses like BBC and VOA, I have never seen a scene where the coalition forces was shooting at the helpless Iraqis as we are being made to believe here. No! The people are killing themselves. The continual stay of the troop in Iraq is to protect the poor, the weak, women and children who have become victims of the immoral and inhumane act of Saddam's loyalists. Cannibalism, you may say.
My final post on this topic.

I agree that every sane human being would be happy to see Saddam go.

I however think your humanity is questionable if you say that killing several thousands of innocent people (including women and children) is enough justification for the removal of Saddam.

Do you honestly think Soldiers will shoot at civilians when they see the media around?
Anyway, there was one I saw where the pilot 'took out' a group of fleeing Iraqis. It was on Channel 4 for a whole week and America waved it aside.

Which people are killing themselves? Why were they not killing themselves before the arrival of American soldiers. If American soldiers invade, Iran tomorrow, you'll see the same thing happening there and you'll say they're killing themselves.

The continued stay of the troop does nothing to ameliorate the sufferings of the people neither has it prevented people being killed in scores on a daily basis. They have created a mess and they do create a mess in every nation they go to.

Quote Easyy,
"Layifioren, let's put a little more intelligence into this. Are you saying that it is good that everyone everywhere should never fight back in the face of invasion/oppresion by a mightier force?

I don't want to believe you're trying to stste here that people should never fight up and fight what causes if they face a mightier foe. In that case, you are saying that because America is militarily powerful, every nation should just submit to every whim and caprice of George 'war monger' Bush.

Please tell me what should happen if, in some years' time, any silly person ruling a country discovered some very powerful weapon that makes it mightier in military terms than America. Should the whole world just dance to the dictates of the of the silly man?

I am astounded that you are positing a rule by might in the world. Is that the way any civilised human being should reason?"

Did you read what I said very well? What I was saying is that the Coalition force did not just decided to kill Iraqi's; it was a fight like you said and what happens when two opposing teams fight; either of the two will suffer more loss. You need to read and understand and you make it sound as if the innocent people killed were killed intentionally. If I were you, I'll put my energy on the Nigerian government that refuses to take care of issues like Airplane crash that has taken lifes of our love ones who were TOTALLY INNOCENT. You're not arguing to learn, you're arguing to prove that you're right. So what will you gain from it all? I need to reserve my energy for better things so this is my last post on this issue. Enjoy!

@Afam
Can u plz link me to the site where u found that Iraqis say that that the invasion was not worth it

The last time I checked 77 percent of Iraqis thought the invasion was worth with it despite the troubles on the Brooking instituition website in September 2006.I tried to link it but it i couldn't

It's very easy for Nigerian to criticize Bush, American Policies, and the way things are ran In America. Like Texazzpete said, what in the world have you done for Nigeria. It's very easy to point fingers, but can you walk the walk and talk the talk.

It so sickens me when I see so many Nigerian come on here and say all kinds of crap about America, just to find out that it's the same people that send days and nights at the American Embassy trying to get a freaking VISA to the country.