johnydon22:


Not really, what he is trying to explain is much more bigger than what you might be thinking.

Gravitational dilation, the more the gravity the slower the time which makes it seem that near a blackhole (immense gravity) time slows down so much that it is nearly stopped.

If you spend 1hour in a blackhole or too near one, when you come back to earth you will see that most of your children are already grand parents.

But to you, you only spent 1hr and will still look same. . .

That's it..thanks Johnny

dblackninja:

Hehehe Do you know what is awesome with the human physiology? It adapts.
It is experimentable. That doesn't mean you could spend your life in a pit or basement just to outlive others on the surface. The effect isn't noticeable on such a small scale. If you became a basement hermit, then across your entire lifetime you'd only age a fraction of a second slower than everyone else above ground.

Hmm, sorry to kill you here bro, but your cells set time can't just be "reset".
You see, your body cells was not just put on a "timer" the day you were born, the circadian rthymn of your body has been preset thousands of years ago; as animal life slowly adapted to life on EARTH.

What I'm saying is that : the "timer", so to speak, have been "set" hundreds of thousands of years ago; before you were even born.

Now going from the direction of the discussion SirWere is about to pull with Reyginus a thought occurred to me.

Our dreams are from the imagery of the neurological systems, our imaginations are directly as a result of the neurological imaging firings, the images we can form in our minds or dreams are all emanating from previous experiences of that even when you don't remember.

The only reason you can imagine an aeroplane or dream of one as we have today is because you have seen one, if you never have and was asked to imagine one you imagination will be too far from aeroplanes we have.

So now the problem is.

Do blind people dream or can they ever imagine?

SirWere:


Hmm, sorry to kill you here bro, but your cells set time can't just be "reset".
You see, your body cells was not just put on a "timer" the day you were born, the circadian rthymn of your body has been preset thousands of years ago; as animal life slowly adapted to life on EARTH.

What I'm saying is that : the "timer", so to speak, have been "set" hundreds of thousands of years ago; before you were even born.

Who set the timer? What's your take on evolution and mutation?

Reyginus:
I have a brain.

If so, then you are something more than your brain. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for this, as everything about you memories, perceptions, likes, hates, knowledge, experience, everything really exists in your brain..........

With all the above, can't one say you exists in your brain....... That you are a brain

johnydon22:
Now going from the direction of the discussion SirWere is about to pull with Reyginus a thought occurred to me.

Our dreams are from the imagery of the neurological systems, our imaginations are directly as a result of the neurological imaging firings, the images we can form in our minds or dreams are all emanating from previous experiences of that even when you don't remember.

The only reason you can imagine an aeroplane or dream of one as we have today is because you have seen one, if you never have and was asked to imagine one you imagination will be too far from aeroplanes we have.

So now the problem is.

Do blind people dream or can they ever imagine?

Of course, yes, they think. The thing is, they don't imagine the same things we imagine. They dream too but not the same with the pictures we get. They dream the elements in their imagination.

SirWere:


Hmm, sorry to kill you here bro, but your cells set time can't just be "reset".
You see, your body cells was not just put on a "timer" the day you were born, the circadian rthymn of your body has been preset thousands of years ago; as animal life slowly adapted to life on EARTH.

What I'm saying is that : the "timer", so to speak, have been "set" hundreds of thousands of years ago; before you were even born.

You are still not getting it brother, there is no need to reset the cells here...

the cells all think that there are witnessing time as normal, like when you spend what seem to you to be 1hr in a blackhole.

Your cells won't shrink and get old, no it is still just like 1hour to you, the only problem is that when you get to earth that 1 hour was actually 100 years.

So here time runs slower but to the observer still looked same only when compared to a faster time medium.

johnydon22:
Now going from the direction of the discussion SirWere is about to pull with Reyginus a thought occurred to me.

Our dreams are from the imagery of the neurological systems, our imaginations are directly as a result of the neurological imaging firings, the images we can form in our minds or dreams are all emanating from previous experiences of that even when you don't remember.

The only reason you can imagine an aeroplane or dream of one as we have today is because you have seen one, if you never have and was asked to imagine one you imagination will be too far from aeroplanes we have.

So now the problem is.

Do blind people dream or can they ever imagine?

Wow i like your idea but the answer is simple..yes. Imagery doesn't come from sight only. It comes from all the 5 senses of the body.

johnydon22:


Not really, what he is trying to explain is much more bigger than what you might be thinking.

Gravitational dilation, the more the gravity the slower the time which makes it seem that near a blackhole (immense gravity) time slows down so much that it is nearly stopped.

If you spend 1hour in a blackhole or too near one, when you come back to earth you will see that most of your children are already grand parents.

But to you, you only spent 1hr and will still look same. . .

I concur. However, your body cells have a particular "timer" irrespective of the current "time difference".

What I'm saying (and not too well I'm afraid) is that your body has a clock independent of the present surrondings and is counting down even as we speak.

Reyginus:
Of course, yes, they think. The thing is, they don't imagine the same things we imagine. They dream too but not the same with the pictures we get. They dream the elements in their imagination.

Thinking doesn't necessarily must include imagery, so blind person can think surely.

So since they have no imagery how can they imagine up anything or dream up one...

How can one dream of up when you don't even know what up or down looks like therefore don't even know them.

I doubt..

dblackninja:

Who set the timer? What's your take on evolution and mutation?

The flying sphagetti Monster? The laws of Nature? God?
Take your pick, I care less..



And yes, I accept evolution.

dblackninja:

Wow i like your idea but the answer is simple..yes. Imagery doesn't come from sight only. It comes from all the 5 senses of the body.

It gets complicated. . . You might remember/imagibe how something smells or feels or feel the contours but how can you imagine an image of it without seeing it since the onset of your being.

Do you think a blind person who has never seen blue, can automatically recognize blue immediately he opens his eyes for the first time?

and be like "Ehee that's the colour blue"

SirWere:
If so, then you are something more than your brain. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for this, as everything about you memories, perceptions, likes, hates, knowledge, experience, everything really exists in your brain..........

With all the above, can't one say you exists in your brain....... That you are a brain

I don't think the reason why you exist is because you can think. Can a brain exist on its own gathering and using information? No. It would have made more sense if the brain is capable of independent existence. Can the brain think on its own? If the brain can't do all these on its own how then am I solely a brain?

SirWere:
The flying sphagetti Monster? The laws of Nature? God?
Take your pick, I care less..



And yes, I accept evolution.

And you think this timer occurs like you think in that my analogy which Johnny explained further?
Does cells continue metabolism at the same rate when completely frozen and when not frozen?

johnydon22:
Now going from the direction of the discussion SirWere is about to pull with Reyginus a thought occurred to me.

Our dreams are from the imagery of the neurological systems, our imaginations are directly as a result of the neurological imaging firings, the images we can form in our minds or dreams are all emanating from previous experiences of that even when you don't remember.

The only reason you can imagine an aeroplane or dream of one as we have today is because you have seen one, if you never have and was asked to imagine one you imagination will be too far from aeroplanes we have.

So now the problem is.

Do blind people dream or can they ever imagine?

Hmm.... Blind people can acquire information through other senses i.e some can "taste" colour or "feel" shapes.

So yeah, they should be able to dream.

SirWere:

Hmm.... Blind people can acquire information through other senses i.e some can "taste" colour or "feel" shapes.

So yeah, they should be able to dream.

You see the only reason why you can imagine a sphere after feeling one is that you have seen one.

There is completely no imaging, and our imaging is not formulated by 'feeling, taste' these can only provide thoughts on their own scope but not an image to one who has never ever perceived images.

do you think a blind man knows what 'light' is? how then can there be imagination without neurological illumination?

johnydon22:


It gets complicated. . . You might remember/imagibe how something smells or feels or feel the contours but how can you imagine an image of it without seeing it since the onset of your being.

Do you think a blind person who has never seen blue, can automatically recognize blue immediately he opens his eyes for the first time?

and be like "Ehee that's the colour blue"

Hehehe of course no no no. Remember the naming of things is just what we use to describe them for our understanding. When I say gįm gįm (a sound) you haven't seen it but you will imagine what's it's like..just like reading a novel and come across some description you haven't heard, you must imagine something which may be actually wrong but you must imagine. Do you know that sound produces colour?
I believe that a blind will imagine a colour to his own taste after describing to him about the colour.

dblackninja:

Hehehe of course no no no. Remember the naming of things is just what we use to describe them for our understanding. When I say gįm gįm (a sound) you haven't seen it but you will imagine what's it's like..just like reading a novel and come across some description you haven't heard, you must imagine something which may be actually wrong but you must imagine. Do you know that sound produces colour?
I believe that a blind will imagine a colour to his own tasted after describing to him about the colour.

So you think if a man blind from birth opens his eyes now and you bring Red, Yellow and Blue and ask him 'Have you imagined them before? he will say 'yes'?

johnydon22:


So you think if a man blind from birth opens his eyes now and you bring Red, Yellow and Blue and ask him 'Have you imagined them before? he will say 'yes'?

No no no. He can't. I really laughed at your post in Hardmirror's thread about that miraculous pastor healing a blind and showing him his handkerchief and the blind man got the colour
What am saying is that it's not only sight that gives imagery but the whole sense. Just like you imagining the gįm gįm sound I wrote but never actually seen it

Reyginus:
I don't think the reason why you exist is because you can think. Can a brain exist on its own gathering and using information? No. It would have made more sense if the brain is capable of independent existence. Can the brain think on its own? If the brain can't do all these on its own how then am I solely a brain?

Funniest thing now is that you ask; can a brain think on its own? Yes it can! Lemme take an example..

In a savannah, a lion spots a herd of bufflaoes. He, sorry, she )" knows one on one she can overpower a buffalo but as a herd, they will tear her to pieces. So what does she do?

The lioness then goes to a cave and howls loudly. The echo magnifies her voice so it sounds to the buffaloes like there is a pack of savage vicious lions wanting to tear their asses instead of a lone lionness (i like the sound of that, lone lioness ).
Whatever happens afterall is not our concern.
The story above is fictional actually
From the above example, one can see that the lioness applied restraint, logic, deductive reasoning and even physicis

Is there a "self" in the lion? A controller of actions in its brain? No, no, no. The lion is primitive and yet, and yet, its brain is capable of thinking, of executing a grandly wicked plan without there being any "thinking" going on.


So yes, a brain can think for itself.



Back to humans, there have been studies showing that our brains make decisions miliseconds before you do. Now, the question, I ask again,


Are you a brain

I own a brain

ANDD::::::::::

I exist in a brain?

dblackninja:

No no no. He can't. I really laughed at your post in Hardmirror's thread about that miraculous pastor healing a blind and showing him his handkerchief and the blind man got the colour
What am saying is that it's not only sight that gives imagery but the whole sense. Just like you imagining the gįm gįm sound I wrote but never actually seen it

Gim gim sound can only be thought off in the same sense as sound not an image..

Like i said above: thoughts are not limited to images, you can think with words and no images.

So the conclusion: A blind man can think but can never imagine up images therefore he might dream but the dream might only be sounds and feelings and not actually images?

dblackninja:

And you think this timer occurs like you think in that my analogy which Johnny explained further?
Does cells continue metabolism at the same rate when completely frozen and when not frozen?

No........... But I see what you're trying to do

johnydon22:


Gim gim sound can only be thought off in the same sense as sound not an image..

Like i said above: thoughts are not limited to images, you can think with words and no images.

So the conclusion: A blind man can think but can never imagine up images therefore he might dream but the dream might only be sounds and feelings and not actually images?

problem is, blind people claim they see colours light and stuff when they dream

johnydon22:


Gim gim sound can only be thought off in the same sense as sound not an image..

Like i said above: thoughts are not limited to images, you can think with words and no images.

So the conclusion: A blind man can think but can never imagine up images therefore he might dream but the dream might only be sounds and feelings and not actually images?

There're many types of imagery..you haven't heard of auditory imagery? And yes we can conclude like you stated above..A blind man can dream and imagine but not like you that have an extra sense

SirWere:
No........... But I see what you're trying to do

Hehehe coool

johnydon22:


Thinking doesn't necessarily must include imagery, so blind person can think surely.

So since they have no imagery how can they imagine up anything or dream up one...

How can one dream of up when you don't even know what up or down looks like therefore don't even know them.

I doubt..

Images also doesn't come from that which we have seen. We can image too from interaction with our environment. Only that for the blind what may be obtainable would be patterns. If they can feel braids and other physical reality they can image pictures, no matter how blurred, of reality.

SirWere:


Funniest thing now is that you ask; can a brain think on its own? Yes it can! Lemme take an example..

In a savannah, a lion spots a herd of bufflaoes. He, sorry, she )" knows one on one she can overpower a buffalo but as a herd, they will tear her to pieces. So what does she do?

The lioness then goes to a cave and howls loudly. The echo magnifies her voice so it sounds to the buffaloes like there is a pack of savage vicious lions wanting to tear their asses instead of a lone lionness (i like the sound of that, lone lioness ).
Whatever happens afterall is not our concern.
The story above is fictional actually
From the above example, one can see that the lioness applied restraint, logic, deductive reasoning and even physicis

Is there a "self" in the lion? A controller of actions in its brain? No, no, no. The lion is primitive and yet, and yet, its brain is capable of thinking, of executing a grandly wicked plan without there being any "thinking" going on.


So yes, a brain can think for itself.



Back to humans, there have been studies showing that our brains make decisions miliseconds before you do. Now, the question, I ask again,


Are you a brain

I own a brain

ANDD::::::::::

I exist in a brain?

We are now on lions and humans? But then can we excise the brain of the lion from the body and still notice some thinking? How exactly does such an experience forming the thought come by? I doubt this is possible. I still maintain that I have a brain. Can a brain place in a jar of water think?

johnydon22:


You see the only reason why you can imagine a sphere after feeling one is that you have seen one.

There is completely no imaging, and our imaging is not formulated by 'feeling, taste' these can only provide thoughts on their own scope but not an image to one who has never ever perceived images.

do you think a blind man knows what 'light' is? how then can there be imagination without neurological illumination?

**Runs away **

Reyginus:
We are now on lions and humans? But then can we excise the brain of the lion from the body and still notice some thinking? How exactly does such an experience forming the thought come by? I doubt this is possible. I still maintain that I have a brain. Can a brain place in a jar of water think?

The "lion story" is a story I used to explain that the brain can think
for itself without a "controller".


You seem to miss the point. I did not claim that a brain independent of a body can think (or is even feasible).

I'm simply asking where you stand in the order of things.

Ok, let me ask in a different way

Do you just exist as a "presence" inside your brain cells?( are you a brain?)

OR


Do you own your brain



I await answer, WITH EXPLAINATIONS

Reyginus:
We are now on lions and humans? But then can we excise the brain of the lion from the body and still notice some thinking? How exactly does such an experience forming the thought come by? I doubt this is possible. I still maintain that I have a brain. Can a brain place in a jar of water think?

I believe where SirWere is driving at is this:
If you Rey and me undergo a brain transplant, will who you're are become me and vice versa? Will you move with your brain? If yes then you're a brain.

But SirWere what is the right conclusion if the answer is no?

dblackninja:
But SirWere what is the right conclusion if the answer is no?

I created on thread on that.
It's titled "where am I"



But really, if the answer is no, well, it shows a whole generation of Neuro-scientists have been smoking oshogbo weed, that the very bedrock on cognitive fields like pyschology, psychiatry, neuroscience and even more fields has been flawed.

I have no doubt many scientists will go back home that day, crawl under the bed and cry/hide; afraid of the massive backlash about to come.


We'll bounce back, sure, but the whole biology of the mind will be in doubt forever more.


Of course, many theists will come out and say "Ah ha! We said it "