Deep Sight:

Mantraa & Mazaje -

I am astounded that you both have failed to see the major loophole in your reference to other ancient people:

Those people were scientists, astronomers and physicists.

What was Job, that he should have such knowledge?

What was Isaiah?

Actually you do not know who wrote the book of job. . . The book of Job was NOT written by job. . .it is one of those books in the bible whose author remains unknown. . . .In antiquity you could not seperate religion from anything. . .religion was everything. . . . . it was politics, science, morality. . .everything. . . .

And most importantly the Greek Civilization was far down the line after the Hebrew Texts had been written!

You both astound me.

Any evidence for this?. . . . . .

Mazaje: Learn: A rejection of religion (which is my path) does not necessarily amount to a rejection of God, or Spirituality. The Deistic worldview focuses on the existence of a Supreme Being who created the world, but there are many many different types of, variations, and views within Deism.

If you want to be a christian come out and declear that you are one. . .you can not say you reject the christian faith and present what is written in their bible as evidence for your nameless god. . . .

How I wish someone can write down all the reasonable questions that has been asked about the proof of existence of God

and the proofs of How false the Bible is out on a thread. Let's know who the Losers are

@ Deep Site,

Sorry i could not complete my post last night, my times expires at 9:00pm.

Now lets analyse your response.

Deep Sight:

I hope you realise you have neither addressed what i rasied nor made any point.

Why the hell are people so black and white? ? ? ? ?

Once somebody sees somethings of value and interest in a compound book such as the bible, such a person must be a fire-breathing-born-again christian-in-disguise? ? ? ? ? Good grief! ! !

I have learnt something in life: nothing is ever as bad as people claim it to be. And nothing is ever as good as people claim it to be.

Things are not black and white!

Thus, there are illogicalities in the Bible just as surely as there are things to wonder at. As well as useful bits of history.

The persons (like you atheist lot) who seek to state that there is nothing worthwhile in the bible or quoran are just as off-the-mark as the persons who seek to state that there is nothing wrong in these books!

Get it? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Please what are your points?

That God spoke to Job And taught him astronomy and cosmology?

Ok lets analyze this Job and how he saw the world around him.

Who was Job, lets get our description from the Bible as that is our only source.

1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

2And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

3His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

Job according to these passages was a very wealthy herdsman, the writer of the passage thinks he is the richest man in the east (middle east), and he has 10 children.

Now the story did not claim it was written by Job, but it was written about Job by another person. So what was written was the unknown author's perspective and not Job's.  I wander why Christians always associate authorship with the characters of a story.

So what are the Author's perspectives of Nature?

Now lets take a look at Job chapter 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
       with words without knowledge?

So according to the author of  Job, god talks to him through storms (thunder i guess). Job thought thunder was a god voice talking to certain people.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
       Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
       Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
       or who laid its cornerstone-

The author of Job thought the earth was built the way you build a house, complete with foundation footings and cornerstone.

7 while the morning stars sang together
       and all the angels shouted for joy?

The morning stars were the planet Venus and Mercury by ancient Greek thought, because these stars (planets) were sometimes visible  just before dawn, at other times they are visible just before dusk, then they are known as evening star. This shows Job had Greek influence.

13 that it might take the earth by the edges
       and shake the wicked out of it?

Now this is the same Job you claimed knew the earth was spherical talking about the earth having edges. Wow Jobs Sphere has edges.

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
       Tell me, if you know all this.

Yes i can comprehend the expanses of the earth, it shows that the person that wrote Job could not comprehend the earth beyond the middle east and maybe southern Europe.

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
       And where does darkness reside?

20 Can you take them to their places?
       Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Darkness residing somewhere?, Job did not know that darkness is simply the absence of light.

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
       or seen the storehouses of the hail,

Snow and hail having storehouses? That means Job has no idea where snow or hail comes from

31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Job's author was highly influenced by greek mythology .

To to your verse; He stretches out the north over empty space, and hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26.7.

Please tell me how this can be translated to mean the earths motion in space. What does the" he stretches out of the North mean? North of where?.

you are being very dishonest by implying that "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers" is telling us that the earth is spherical.  I am sure this statement is from the perspective of a sailor who sees a circle around him at see. Are you also then implying that some God seats physically above the earth, because  that is what this author believes.

Please Deep Site convert to Christianity so we can understand your positions, stop tittering on the border.

Wirinet you just nailed it. . . .

@ Wirinet! Sorry, but i am mostly dissapointed by your interpretations. Particularly with respect to your failure to distinguish metaphors from literal descriptions.

mazaje:


Now the story did not claim it was written by Job, but it was written about Job by another person. So what was written was the unknown author's perspective and not Job's. I wander why Christians always associate authorship with the characters of a story.

Authourship is actually not important. What is cardinal is what is reported in the text. Especially since you MOGANALA (MOTLEY GANG OF NAIRALAND ATHEISTS) seek to disparage the bible as set out. Thus, we read what is written therein, and what statements are ascribed to Job regardless of the authours. Who doesn't know that the First five books of the bible were only ascribed to Moses, same with the Gospels.

mazaje:


So according to the author of Job, god talks to him through storms (thunder i guess). Job thought thunder was a god voice talking to certain people.

Good grief, this is sooo lame! How would you expect God to talk to a prophet. . . perhaps bring out a mat and sit beside him in a hut and give him tales by moonlight? ? ? ? Give me a break!

mazaje:

The author of Job thought the earth was built the way you build a house, complete with foundation footings and cornerstone.

You have never read poetry in your life before? You don't know what metaphors are? Get real man!

If you must know the book of Job is a poetic work, and such works are replete with metaphors.

This is from Wiki -
quote author= link=topic=327345.msg4653145#msg4653145 date=1254484399]
[[The Book of Job (Hebrew: אִּיּיּיֹוב) is one of the books of the Hebrew Bible. It relates the story of Job, his trials at the hands of Satan, his theological discussions with friends on the origins and nature of his suffering, and finally a response from God. The Book itself comprises a didactic poem set in a prose framing device and has been called "the most profound and literary work of the entire Old Testament".

[/quote].

Note the highlighted portion in the quote above and please do not dissapoint me in your appreciation of literature! The thing was a didactic poem for God's sake!

mazaje:


The morning stars were the planet Venus and Mercury by ancient Greek thought, because these stars (planets) were sometimes visible just before dawn, at other times they are visible just before dusk, then they are known as evening star.

CHRIST! You amaze me! Up till this very day, Venus is still metaphorically called "the morning star" because of its bright appearance in the sky! So what? ? ? ?

[quote author=mazaje link=topic=327345.msg4653145#msg4653145 date=1254484399]

Snow and hail having storehouses? That means Job has no idea where snow or hail comes from

Aside from the obvious poetic use, you should be aware that the Earth's water cycle stashes away vasy quantities of ice-water within the atmosphere. Are those not "Storehouses"? Ok, sorry, you expect the earth's water cycle to function through man made pipes. . .? ? ?

Overall, Wiriniet, i score your response very poor. Go and read the Book of Job again, and although i would have urged you to read it with spiritual insight, i must say that since you deny spirituality, at least read it like a man who understands literature and metaphors!

mazaje:


Please Deep Site convert to Christianity so we can understand your positions, stop tittering on the border.

Not a chance, i cannot accept bizzare dogma such as the trinity, redemption through the crucifixion etc.

mazaje:

Wirinet you just nailed it. . . .

Nailed what? As you can see from the above, it was a response without much depth of understanding of literature. You just dey do follow-follow. . .?

Its clear that the athiests and more intelligent than the thiest

Na wah o

@ Rich John -

It sounds very "intelligent" to you when somebody reads about God speaking from a Cloud of Thunder, and concludes that the prophet was worshipping Thunder?

It sounds very clever to you that somebody mentions "the mornin star" as evidence that the Prophets were ignorant - despite the fact that up till this day in 2009, Venus is still called the Morning Star metaphorically?

It sounds very clever to you when somebody reads a didactic poem and picks out words such as "the storehouses of snow" to conclude that the Prophet was referring to a warehouse in Iyana-Ipaja? ? ?

I can only wonder at your literary and academic background.

The problems of not being able to distinguish between metaphors and literal descriptions in the Bible was not created by me but by the Christians themselves, who want us to take every verse in the Bible literally. I also understand most verses of the bible has a lot of literal value as they are brilliant works of literature just like the Odyssey and the illiad. But the Christians especially the pentecostal Variety wants us to take every prose and verse literally. Thereby wanting us to believe that a man survived inside the stomach of a whale for 3 days.

Exactly. So i take it you recant your allegations that the Prophet was ignorant.

Forget the bozos who take everything literally, the bible is a heavily symbolic book, although it contains alot of real History.

Deep Sight:

Exactly. So i take it you recant your allegations that the Prophet was ignorant.

Forget the bozos who take everything literally, the bible is a heavily symbolic book, although it contains alot of real History.

It seems you are more confused as I thought. . . . why are you NOT using the koran or any other religious text out there only the bible as evidence for your nameless god. . . the bıble is NOT the religious book of any nameless deist god. . . . I will begin to take you as a serious person when you tell us the name of this your nameless god. . . ,

Deep Sight,
lol you are cracking me up, you never considered that your first assertion was a metaphor, see how you were  finished wirinet lol  

You have never read poetry in your life before? You don't know what metaphors are? Get real man!

Funny

deepsight is far from a deist. I already told him that.

he falls in the "i'm spiritual because i don't like organized religion" category.

The point is that Job cannot have the knowledge to make the assessments he made just like you folks. God's ways are different from ours. It is wiser to bow in submission and adoration of God than to try to judge him.

Isaiah 55:8-9

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord.
'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

You've been forewarned,

Kolaxy well done!. This atheists have become afraid, now dey won close down the thread!

@ xtians

y'all have a problem against people disputing what u bliv in so dearly . . . but u hardly know what u bliv nor can u intelligently defend it

d sango worshippers were not any smarter dan y'all cos they worshippd sango in fear & trust of _{d sango priests}. . . it's veri easy 4 y'all xtians 2 abuse dem & feel dey were foolish worshiping wood, iron e.t.c all cos they wantd 2 guarantee another bountiful harvest year wif no floods, earthquakes e.t.c . . . .which we now know are natural occurences which MUST occure irrespectiv of the god u server _{take a trip 2 ASIA & c 4 urslf}

in sum years from now. . . must of ur blivs, fears, uncertaintly WILL BE unvield, we'll see who laughs then

have u ever askd urslf y u r here? isn't d chicken u killd 2 eat last week as important. . .does IT have a GOD?

we've been 2 space & bac. . .but isn't it easier 2 bliv in Mars dan d Tower of Babel?

^^^see tokunbo calling original fake

No.1 Everyone is mad

No.2 In sum years now christianity will be no more, so you're only confirming the Bible

No.3 God gave us dominion over the animals. If you are only as important as a chicken, so be it

No.4 I love it when Christ says: 'O ye of little faith, ' (You don't believe coz ur biased)

Follow science in its delusion. Till today they can't accept the supernatural (and yet they can't even explain what the mind is )

Anything else you wanna talk?

Mars & the Towel of Babel?

[size=13pt]You are right man. . ., True talk on here. [/size]

rich_john:

Its clear that the athiests and more intelligent than the thiest

Na wah o

@deepsight.
i understand what you mean by the metaphors and literal thing and that shows you have been reading, only the wrong books. my problem with that however is that before people got more enlightened, metaphors were never in the picture. Skepticism about biblical claims had to rise up before christianity started hiding under metaphors. Why should the sunday school teacher not tell us right from Genesis 1:1 that everything is all about analogies?
I have come to realise that this metaphor clamouring only comes out when believers themselves now see that some claims/stories are just too outrageous for them to justify. The kingdom of God is like- if jesus hadn't used those words ahead of his parables, am sure those stories will end up being stamped as actual occurrences.

My question: at what point is a biblical claim a metaphor? is it when it is being confronted eyeball to eyeball with empiricism? how about having something like a council of vatican to append to the bible, a glossary of metaphors and that of literal claims?

Taking the christian side in an undecided argument is taking the Pascal's wager which any supreme being(God, Sango, Zeus etc) should be able to see beyond. Worshipping me not because you really believe me but because of the punishment associated with not believing me if it turns out am right. I think it's time we advanced past fear-motivated ideologies.

Quoting Betrand Russel when asked the same question:
"Oh God, you did not give us sufficient evidence"

Ogaga4Luv:

[size=13pt]You are right man. . ., True talk on here. [/size]

Periodic jazz to block your ears from the truth
Keep it up but don't make it obvious!

^^^^arghh! That hurts