m_nwankwo:

Pastor AIO may not explain his beliefs to suit what discussants suspect of his religious inclination. But my view is that Pastor AIO have not changed even by a hairs breath from his original religious convictions. I also do not think that any argument or debate from any body will change his convictions. I am not holding brief for him but I think that his position is being misunderstood by many. Many of the questioners seem to have a perception of what they think are Pastor AIO convictions and counsciously or uncounsciously expect him to confirm their suspicision. But Pastor AIO gives an answer which accurately describes his spiritual convictions but the answers cannot be put into defined religious boxes. Pastor AIO answers inspite of the clarity and depth cannot be understood as long as discussants want to fit his answers into  defined religious concepts. This in my view is the main reason why he is being accused of not being clear or evasive. I do not agree with some of his convictions for we have had very serious debates where we agreed to disagree. But he is very honest about what his convictions are. 

This certainly cannot explain his reference to the fact that God makes people in a certain way. . .

And then in another breath on this same thread demand a Definition of God, and state that he is wary of discussing God. . .

Certainly, any person who states that "God made [someone] that way" must have a preconception of what the word "God" means, to be able to make that statement. It is odd that the person shortly thereafter demands for definitions of God, and also categorically states that [God] is not a bearded old man sitting in the sky". . . further evidence that he in fact has a fair idea of what the word "God" refers to.

I was mildly surprised that he herein referred to himself as a Christian -

Pastor AIO:


The following is Pastor AIO's very second post on Nairaland. I think it gives a lot of insight into my attitude to christianity and the sort of christian I am.

-

Because when i asked him who Jesus was, despite the fact that Christianity commences with Jesus, he is not inclined to make a commitment on the identity of Jesus. Christians accept Jesus as the "Messiah" and also as "the Son of God" who brought a message of light to mankind. Instead Pastor chose to state only:

Pastor AIO:


This is an historical question and the historical records have a lot to say.

.

You must admit he is a bit confusing, and hopefully this thread will be a chance for him to clear things up. . .

Deep Sight:

This certainly cannot explain his reference to the fact that God makes people in a certain way. . .

Only in another breath on this same thread demand a Definition of God, and state that he is wary of discussing God. . .

Certainly, any person who states that "God made [someone] that way" must have a preconception of what the word "God" means, to be able to make that statement. It is odd that the person shortly thereafter demands for definitions of God, and also categorically states that [God] is not a bearded old man sitting in the sky". . . further evidence that he in fact has a fair idea of what the word "God" refers to.

Hi DeepSight. I see your point but if you look at all Pastor AIO posts, not only the one you referenced, you will hopefully find what he believes God to be. Pastor AIO believes in God and I am confident that he will answer your question on that issue. Maybe, you may consider the way you frame your questions to him. They do appear to look like a demand rather than a request. It is like you are putting his convictions on trial. I do not want to hold brief for him but their is a very interesting debate I had with him more than a year ago on identity and counsciousness. In that debate, he clearly demonstrated what his convictions are and I do not think that he has changed since then. Maybe you just find time to read all his posts and hopefully you will see what his convictions are. In addition Pastor AIO usually bring jokes into what is a very serious discussion. I guess it a way of him saying that we should not taken things too serious or else we become fixated to forms and become imperceptible to the pulsating power of God which shapes the forms. As always stay blessed.

^^^ I believe in Pastor, i really do. Together with Prizm, yourself (i mean no flattery) and a genlteman called EasyLogic, he ranks amongst the few on this forum who have genuinely "wowed" me and blown me away with the high quality of their minds.

It is for this reason that i have a need to understand him better.

I am sure he will help.

Deep Sight:

^^^Dudu Space -

In order that this thread is not derailed into another "Proof of God's Existence" thread, i will meet you up on another thread to discuss these. But very briefy, let me point out a few things -

I am through arguing the proof of God's existence with anyone (except when I'm in the mood to amuse myself) because I 've come to the conclusion that it is a moot point which is why I'm an apathetic agnostic. You can't prove either way whether he exists or not without falling into a fallacy so I keep a very open mind in that regards.

Deep Sight:

The words "multiple" and "prime" are an incurable contradiction in themselves. Reflect closely on this.

You are talking about living out of time and you are still holding on to rigid definitions as defined in time, isn't that a contradiction? My precise point being that once you go out of what we know and are sure of, all other things become conjectures with their attendant inconsistencies.

Deep Sight:

Natural Disasters re-balance the earth's cycles and eco-systems. Predators control cattle populations. . .  etc. Again, reflect closely.

You've put up a reasonable defense but it falls flat on its face, without going into details, the question remains couldn't an "Ultimate intelligence" design things better?

Deep Sight:

Come on! I almost had to chuckle at this. Prior to the big bang, what nothingness was there? You seem not able to step out of the bubble of things already existing, within which you input possibilities. . . Let's discuss nothing existing (singluarity/ pre-big bang). What endless possibilities could exist in such? Nil. Have you reflected on the law of motion? Notice how nothing can move without being moved by something alreay moving. . .?

I do step out of the bubble of pre-existing things, but with a caveat (that no one is able to prove anything conclusive beyond the point at which matter came into existence without falling into a fallacy). The age old question remains that how exactly did something come out of nothing? but attributing it to a creator and then giving attributes of intelligence and power to that creator is also a fallacy which actually does descend into farce as evidenced in religion (organised or individual).

Besides, have you ever questioned why matter cannot be destroyed? but is only transitional? maybe when we get to understand how to make nothing out of something then we will know how something can come from nothing. I think there is a very good reason why null and infinity are theoretical constructs which cannot be practically evidenced or ascertained.

^^^ Duduspace - Like i said, let's not derail this thread.

I am still waiting for Pastor.

Hi Pastor. . .wassup?

Deep Sight:

Insert Quote
Pastor, the contradictions are too many. Let me elucidate.

In one breath you said -

Quote from: Pastor AIO on October 11, 2009, 07:55 PM

The Right thing is unique to each person.  It comes from the person's essential nature, the way God made him to be. 


Thus expressly acceding to both the existence of God, and the fact that HE/SHE/IT is the Creator. Because you stated. . . "The way God made him to be. . . "

Then in another breath you stated -

Quote from: Pastor AIO on October 11, 2009, 08:31 PM

To consider whether God exists or not you must first tell me exactly what you mean by God. Do I think that there is an old man with a long beard in the sky? The answer is No. There are so many Gods and so many Jesuses out there that I hesitate to join when people talk about God, or ask me to join in prayer to God. the JW believe that God actually has a physical location somewhere in the universe and he has a body. That is somewhat different from any of the concepts of God that I've indulged in in the past.


Also:

As for the God part, you have to tell me what you mean by God.


- Which suggest that God remains for you undefined. I really cannot understand this and this is what i meant when i stated that your answers are often laced with great ambiguity.

Hello Deepsight.  Thank you for your patience.  I shall now answer your questions and hopefully it will be satisfactory. 

As regards the definition of God first I want to recall certain posts eg. this one from the thread on the Kabbalah.

Quote from: Krayola2 on July 19, 2009, 03:44 AM

[size=16pt]
"When your intellect conceives of God, do not permit urself to imagine that there is a God that exists as depicted by you. For if you do this you will have a finite and corporeal conception of God, God forbid. Instead, your mind should dwell on the affirmation of God's existence and then recoil. To do more than this is to allow the imagination to reflect on God as God is in Himself and such reflection is bound to result in imaginative limitations and corporeality. Put reins therefore on your intellect and do not allow it too great a freedom, but assert God's existence and deny your intellect the possibility of comprehending God"  16th century kabbalist Moses cordevero[/size]


I think that every religionist should be made aware of this statement.

When I said that every religionist should be made aware of this statement it is because I agree with it.  I am wary of various peoples various notions about God.  Quite rightly you said that for me God is undefined.  I believe that I am incapable of defining God.  That doesn't mean that I don't believe God to exist. Moreover I find that those rigid definitions of God become quite dangerous after awhile.

I'm not too impressed with the Prime mover argument, as you could probably tell, for various reasons.  It places God and the act of creation at a point in Time (the beginning) and I think that God is beyond the temporal. 

I entirely deny that my questions to you were vague. Who can genuinely state that he does not have an idea of what it means to talk about spiritual salvation, be it in a christian or moslem context! As children, we were all accustomed to ideas of "heaven" and "hell" - whether or not those places exist, the point is that you perfectly well understand what the words "Heaven", "Paradise" and "Salvation" connote, but rather than answer the question, as has become customary of you, you again evasively stated -

Like I said in response I believe that humans can be saved from their conditioned souls.  That is a type of salvation.  If you are talking about the concepts of heaven and hell then this is what I've said in the past.

Re: Would The World Be A Better Place If:
« #4 on: July 11, 2009, 12:18 PM »


Will Heaven be populated by heartless people?  I've wondered since I was a child that when I get through the pearly gates how comfortable would I be?  How comfortable would I be knowing that somewhere else there are multitudes of people burning and suffering in extreme torment.  Could I enjoy heaven knowing that that was going on somewhere. 

I remember going to a club and getting in but my friends couldn't get in.  In the end I couldn't stay in the club because I thought it better to keep my friends company. 

Knowing that there are so many people that you've known and loved burning in eternity, how can you enjoy heaven.  Unless the ability to empathize is removed from all citizens of heaven.  Or maybe we will lose our memories so we don't know or care.

Any other way and my time in heaven would probably be spent petitioning Jesus to let some people that knew and loved into heaven. 

Maybe that is what the catholics are talking about when they talk of the saints praying for them and all that.

I find that the concept of heaven and hell does something nasty to religionists.  It brings out a spitefulness in their nature.  Like a gleeful hope that their enemies are going to burn forever.  It takes them in a direction away from love and as such, in my opinion, takes them away from salvation.  The Mountain of Fire guys remain the greatest example of vitriolic hate filled religionism. 
Salvation to me (in the sense that I think you want to hear it) means coming to the knowledge of, and resting in, Christ who is found within.  For me the Kingdom of heaven is within you and I. 

A question I would like to ask anyone who would care to answer:  When Jesus died where did he go?

In this post, you have shown a very personal belief in God, Redemption through faith and grace, as well as an understanding of a concept of salvation??

I am troubled that whereas you once were expounding what you perceived as Truth, now you are content to descend into whirlpools of definitions.

And although i am aghast to say it, but i verily believe that in this respect you have been strongly influenced by the approach of many of the atheists on this Forum.

Think about this.

Go and have a look at your very old posts. Compare them with the recent ones. What is uniform in both is that you have always shown knowledge, objectivity, and a strong intellect. However in the old posts you were happy to expound on spiritual truths even in a christain context (as in the quote above) whereas nowadays it is very difficult to even get you to admit the existence of a spiritual realm.

You have noticed a change, not in my beliefs but in the language in which I express them.  The change came earlier this year and I wrote this post at that time:

There are big differences between those days and these days 'christians'.  People can profess christianity till they are blue in the face.  They can come here and be rude, spit bile and attack other people in the name of their 'christianity', they can scream 'Jesus is Lord' till the cows come home but at the end of the day if it don't look like a duck, walk like a duck or sound like a duck then I'm not gonna call it a duck.

There is plenty of evidence within christianity and outside of christianity of what christian practice entails.  The majority of 'churches' today are simply not christian churches.  However if they want to fight me over the word christianity and the right to use it then I'll let them have the word.  It is not professing it but rather practicing it that matters. 
 

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=295066.msg4170194#msg4170194

Around this time I also mentioned in other posts that I was giving up the word christian for hate-filled mob.  If you noticed above when I gave a list of what Life's appropriation is called in various cultures I missed out the word Logos which is the Greek term and it is also used in christianity.  Previously it would have been at the top of the list.  I am trying to avoid any terminology that any 'christians' might latch unto and use to bring their own notions into what I want to say. 

What is the difference between when I said this

I'll put it another way.  I don't do good in order to win God's favour.  I do good because I've had God's favour (however undeservedly).

and when I said this:

From my experience of Christ I believe that knowledge of him results first in a sense of being Loved.  The world suddenly becomes more cosy, nothing will harm you.  The Love is almost tangible it emanates off everything around.  It is out of this feeling of being loved, or love pouring unto you that it gets to a certain level that it overflows and you start to exhibit the love back in your actions.  It then seems like the love is pouring out of you. 

You're not forcing yourself to love (or act as if you love) because that is what it says in the rule books.  It is a part of your nature, you can't help it.  Love becomes effortless.  Whereas with the carnal mind it is something that you beat yourself up over.  "I must be more loving.  I must be kind because this is what the bible says I must do.  Why didn't I show that other guy kindness, that was wrong of me, father please forgive me, I will make myself a more loving person by force by force by force." 

It is the same thing articulated differently.  It is a matter of putting the cart before the horse. 
Love comes from the experience of Christ.
You don't earn Christ by Loving.  that is the wrong way round.
Being Good/righteous comes from the divine influence in your life not the other way round whereby if you are good then you earn divine favour. 

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=135166.msg4213434#msg4213434

Quote from: donnie on July 11, 2009, 12:03 PM
If your desire is to explore truth, is it not wise to start from the one who himself is truth: JESUS? Why dont you say like Paul (who saw the devotion of the men of Athens to the worship of the one whom they called THE UNKNOWN GOD), I declare unto you the one whom you ignorantly worship -Acts 17:23.

This possibility of 'ignorantly' worshipping God is very interesting.  It would seem from discussion with proselytes of various religionisms that they believe that it is impossible to worship God unless the worshipper shares the same Concept (or intellectual understanding ) of God as they do. 

First they define God and insist that you accept their definition otherwise it is not God you are worshipping.

And some would even go further and stipulate the manner in which he is to be worshipped, saying that if you do not worship in precisely the way they worship then you are not worshipping God.

I find the idea that some are ignorantly worshipping God very powerful.  Jesus said that some will be surprised when he welcomes them and tells them that they served him when he was hungry, when he was homeless etc.
Perplexed they will ask him, 'lord when did we do these things?'
To which Christ answered,  'whenever you did it to the least of these, you did it also to me'.   (I'm paraphrasing). 

It is the rigid human constructs that pass for religion that make me lift my guard up.  If I'm dealing with somebody's false notions then I need to know exactly what those notions are and so I need clear definitions.  Then I can say exactly where and why I agree or disagree with them. 

Boy, this has taken the better part of 2 hours.  There is more to say but I don tire.  We'll have to wait to the next episode.

Pastor sir, my respect grows. . . i think we are getting there. . .

We are learning, i am so glad about this thread.

But in the next episode, can i respectfully request that we take up the issue of christ -

Pastor AIO:


Love comes from the experience of Christ.
You don't earn Christ by Loving.  that is the wrong way round.
Being Good/righteous comes from the divine influence in your life not the other way round whereby if you are good then you earn divine favour. 

This dovetails with Noetic's position, curiously.

What really, do we mean by the experience of Christ?

Because i would have thought that those who have love in their hearts, have "Christ" however defined. Thus, it could be said that a loving muslim, hindu, buddhist, agnostic. . . all have christ in their hearts, once they have charithy and empathy with their fellow men. . .

And this tallies perfectly with -

Pastor AIO:


I find the idea that some are ignorantly worshipping God very powerful. Jesus said that some will be surprised when he welcomes them and tells them that they served him when he was hungry, when he was homeless etc.
Perplexed they will ask him, 'lord when did we do these things?'
To which Christ answered, 'whenever you did it to the least of these, you did it also to me'. (I'm paraphrasing).

The thread keeps getting more and more interesting, some deeper truths are being revealed in this thread but i am sure most readers would miss it. I would take a back seat and keep learning.

@ Pastor AIO.  I think your last post was fukn brilliant. I'm pretty sure u know where I stand on the issue of God as you quoted that stuff from the Kabbalah thread. I don't even like to use the word "God" because I think it is such a loaded term. Also, I'm a huge fan of Jesus, but I hate everything about "Christianity".  I'm taking a course on Jesus right now and I've been using my phone to capture video of the lectures (I can get kicked out of school if I get caught    ). I'll get around to uploading them on youtube when I have time but I think It'll be worth checking out. I've been playing devil's advocate throwing all sorts of hard questions at the prof and he has been able to answer everyone of them, imo, honestly and satisfactorily. So, so far all my conspiracy theories about the Biblical authors have been "debunked" (alternative explanations that make sense) I'm sure Nairaland Christians will enjoy watching.

I'm learning quite a bit about Islam right now and the more I learn about Mohammed, the more a fan of his I become. It's crazy how much vitriol is out there in the so called religious communities, and how much misinformation (propaganda) people have accepted as matter of fact.

But your reply to my questions on the last page, we are going to have to slug that one out.  But I am drowning in school work so I probably can't make any post longer than three lines for the next week or so.  Unless u wan pay my school fees if I fail.  So we go get back to that later.  Take am easy.

^^^Krayola, the Pastor is brilliant. But we need him to get more specific because brilliance is often a conumburation (does this word exist) of multiplicity. . .

Haha. "Conumburation" pass my power. Na to go find dictionary. Abeg sofly sofly

Even though I've been quite busy shuttling around coz of work, i've been following this thread and i must say i respect pastor's convictions on god. If all religionists were like him honestly the world would be such a happy place. . .we'd be kissing one another here on the religion section instead of the usual fighting. . . One love pastor.

Tudór:

Even though I've been quite busy shuttling around coz of work, i've been following this thread and i must say i respect pastor's convictions on god. If all religionists were like him honestly the world would be such a happy place. . .we'd be kissing one another here on the religion section instead of the usual fighting. . . One love pastor.

A diluted version of the gospel is appealing to a helpless atheist . . . . , its a narrow road and only FEW find it. . . .Jesus said so and not me.

noetic15:

A diluted version of the gospel is appealing to a helpless atheist . . . . , its a narrow road and only FEW find it. . . .Jesus said so and not me.

ha ha ha ha. . . . .Na today you start to dey craze?

Why has Abu-zola not signed his fanaticism here

Tudór:

ha ha ha ha. . . . .Na today you start to dey craze?

suit urself

the truth is that this so called pastor AK47IO does not have any Christian bearing, he is a farce

You are still thinking in terms of codes and general rules applying to everybody at all times. What is right today may not be right tomorrow. What works for me may not work for you. You are not bearing in mind the individuality of human beings. You are not bearing in mind the uniqueness of various situations.

To use Krayola's example above, My spirit might tell me not to give him a penny though he might be my best friend yet another guy who doesn't even know neither of us, but just overheard our conversation, might feel inspired by his spirit to suddenly give it to him. It would be right for that guy but not right for me. Each situation is unique, each person is unique. What applies to me will not necessarily apply to another person.

Thank you for explaining, so you are saying therefore that there is no "right" or "wrong" thing.

Chrisbenogor:


Thank you for explaining, so you are saying therefore that there is no "right" or "wrong" thing.

No, there is right and wrong. It is unique to each particular situation.

noetic15:

A diluted version of the gospel is appealing to a helpless atheist . . . . , its a narrow road and only FEW find it. . . .Jesus said so and not me.

Has it ever occured to you that the the over 2 billion adherents of popular christianity world wide cannot possibly be on that narrow road only very few would find? As it occured to you that even this very few[the very elect] are also in grave danger of being deceived? As it occured to you that there is a great deal of deception and mis-representaion being circulated in churches today? As it even occured to you that there are some deeper truths in the bible being obscured by main stream christianity today. I am sorry my brther but popular christianity [i.e pentecostal movement and other denominations] cannot possibly be on that narrow road.

@PastorAIO/Deep sight
What do you make of this quote extracted from the "gospel of Thomas" attributable to Jesus:

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

KunleOshob:

Has it ever occured to you that the the over 2 billion adherents of popular christianity world wide cannot possibly be on that narrow road only very few would find? As it occured to you that even this very few[the very elect] are also in grave danger of being deceived? As it occured to you that there is a great deal of deception and mis-representaion being circulated in churches today? As it even occured to you that there are some deeper truths in the bible being obscured by main stream christianity today. I am sorry my brther but popular christianity [i.e pentecostal movement and other denominations] cannot possibly be on that narrow road.

1. I have never said that popular Christianity is the narrow road. Every christian is on a unique personal journey/relationship. Why would any bible-reading/ holy spirit filled christian take the word of his pastor as the ABSOLUTE truth? , . .I dont see why. every one needs to discover the unique truth of the gospel of Christ themselves. . . . .thats where a personal study of the bible comes in.

2. that narrow road is however EXCLUSIVE to genuine christiandom. No matter the degree of good works of a person, once they have not accepted the saving grace of Jesus as preached constantly to them. . . . then they are NOT partakers of eternity.

noetic15:

1. I have never said that popular Christianity is the narrow road. Every christian is on a unique personal journey/relationship. Why would any bible-reading/ holy spirit filled christian take the word of his pastor as the ABSOLUTE truth? , . .I dont see why. every one needs to discover the unique truth of the gospel of Christ themselves. . . . .thats where a personal study of the bible comes in.

2. that narrow road is however EXCLUSIVE to genuine christiandom. No matter the degree of good works of a person, once they have not accepted the saving grace of Jesus as preached constantly to them. . . . then they are NOT partakers of eternity.

what about such christians as are illiterate? Without being able to read the bible how do they discover this 'unique truth of the gospel of Christ themselves'. Not to mention those that may be able to read but haven't the intellectual capacity to grasp theological arguments or points of doctrine.

@Pastor
Nice questions, let's see noetic wriggle his way out of this one.

Pastor AIO:


When I said that every religionist should be made aware of this statement it is because I agree with it.  I am wary of various peoples various notions about God.  Quite rightly you said that for me God is undefined.  I believe that I am incapable of defining God.  That doesn't mean that I don't believe God to exist. Moreover I find that those rigid definitions of God become quite dangerous after awhile.

Herein lies a conundrum, how exactly can you believe in something you can't define? doesn't this equate to something like "I don't really know"? what exactly are you sure of and what exactly are assumptions?

I don't know what more to say. Perhaps if you asked the question then I'll see if I have the answer.

By experience of Christ I guess I mean a experience whereby you feel LOVE and you feel a sense of an intentional Order in the universe. I couldn't say that these are the defining characteristics of the experience but they come associated with the experience.

Well Pastor, we need to bring this to a close, so is it safe to conclude the following:

1. You believe in God, a supernatural creator of the universe, et al

2. You also believe in the Christ, and draw essential christianity therefrom

3. This Christ you believe to be love, harmony and order inherent in creation, and not necessarily knowledge of the Earthlife of Mr. Jesus from Nazareth and as such -

4. Any person of any religion, tribe or philosophy who can key-in with that love inherent in creation is well placed therein, and may experience the "harmony" that results therefrom, and this may in part be understood also as spiritual salvation.

5. Guidance comes through the spirit, which provides contextual ethics for man: that man may know right and wrong on a situational basis, each situation being different, as opposed to codified and rigid laws.

Wow! You really are a lawyer!!!  Or is it that you just have such a gift with words. 

Did you read my last post on the Paul Kurtz thread?  I wrote it with this thread in mind.  you haven't commented yet.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-148054.32.html

^^^ Good, so we can conclude, that you are now officially the second Deist on Nairaland (or actually the first, since you pre-date me)

We must celebrate this.

_{Don't worry, these days there is even Christian Deism.}

Deep Sight:

^^^ Good, so we can conclude, that you are now officially the second Deist on Nairaland (or actually the first, since you pre-date me)

We must celebrate this.

_{Don't worry, these days there is even Christian Deism.}

It must be really lonely being the only deist on Nairaland hence your attempt to co-opt another "believer"