Noetic your post makes no sense.

Are you aware that most of these illiterate early Christians became Christians because some Theodosius dude decided to make it the official religion of some empire. And that all it took to become a Christian was to say a creed and be baptized, and to refuse was to suffer, burn, be incarcerated, die. . ? You think the "spirit" convinced these people about the contents of some book they never read, while some guy was waiting to light their asses on fire should they refuse?

Just admit u don't have all the answers. Maybe God does, but your attempts aren't doing him much justice.,

Very interesting thread. And very thoughtful too. Kudos to all of you discussants.

Let me clear up some residual issues:

Jesus Christ: In heaven, he existed with the Father as the Word, which was also God. (see John 1). The heavenly existence is unified in the Holy Spirit. That was why he asked in John 17 "glorify thou me, with thine own self, with the glory which I had with you, ", That glory they shared was encapsulted in their unity in the Holy Spirit. In other words, they (Father and Son existed as one in the Holy Spirit from the  get go). Read Genesis 1 v 2 for confirmation , "And the Spirit of God moved upon the waters".

On the earth plane, both Father and son and Holy Spirit can take different personalities and exist as human beings.  A human being is made up of a house, and spirit. The house is built with water and blood. That was  why it was said "Let us make man in our image". That statement was made by God to the Son on the earth plane. And so after constructing the house, by breathing into man, he transferred the spirit which is our common heritage into man. It is that spirit that gives life. We humans existed as one with him in the very begining. The lack of this understanding is the cause of problems in the world.  We can also decipher from the bible that God taught  Adam directly and you recall that when Adam and Eve sinned, they heard  God's voice walking  in the Garden ( Gen 3:, confirming that God manifested as man. After that sin, God and the Son, transmutted back to spirit existence and would talk to man only through angels. It was only the coming of Jesus, that reconcilled man back to God. While on earth,  Jesus Christ existed as a Son, directly Fathered by the Father himself, through the power of the Holy Ghost. So Christ is actually, the Father coming in the mould of  the Son ( John 14:9).


Salvation and Religions

Christians argue that you cannot know God except through Christ and you are not saved if you do not know Christ. Muslims see their worship of Allah as the worship of God directly. What I should stress is the Our Lord Jesus Christ left just one commandment, which defines you as a disciple - Love. Love your neighbour and Love God. God is Love. No matter your religion, once you practice Love, you have practiced righteousness and you are known of God. That was why he said that not all those that call him "Lord, Lord" will receive salvation. Rather than criticize any faith.it is more profitable to put to practice the teachings of Christ, afterall he justified a common thief in the cross, so can we as created beings decide for the creator?

Heaven and Hell

Heaven and hell are spiritual existence and hence  have many levels acciording to the development of individual souls. Paul talked about the 3rd heaven, how many more levels do you have? When we die our spirits go to the appropriate place as directed by God. However, do not forget his teaching that the righteous shall inherit the earth. The righteous who are dead at the coming of the Christ, will be re-incarnated into the world to rejoice with him ( 1Thes 14- 17). The evildoers are elliminated by the angels and they stay in Hell fire, in perpetual spiritual suffering.

Krayola:

Noetic your post makes no sense.

Are you aware that most of these illiterate early Christians became Christians because some Theodosius dude decided to make it the official religion of some empire. And that all it took to become a Christian was to say a creed and be baptized, and to refuse was to suffer, burn, be incarcerated, die. . ? You think the "spirit" convinced these people about the contents of some book they never read, while some guy was waiting to light their asses on fire should they refuse?

Just admit u don't have all the answers. Maybe God does, but your attempts aren't doing him much justice.,

did all ancient xtians accpet Christianity by force? . . . . .did any of them accept it willingly like millions do today?. . , , ,

Deep Sight:

Pastor - I know that you only answered those questions out of your desperation to devour that testicle. However you have made a grave error: you will see that the wager was made with Jesoul, and not you. I have therefor parcelled it off and sent it to her mailing address. Right now i am recuperating from the surgical procedure that it took to extract these answers from you extract the testicle.

Thanks for the answers, and thanks, Jesoul.

Let me attempt, if i dare, to expound on the various subtleties that you referred to.

Please correct me wherever i am wrong: these are my perceptions, and i hope that in the matter of these subtleties, they are yours also.

1. Jesus as the Son of God: To the extent that all things and all beings are spawned by the creative will of God, we are, as Jesus was, all Children of the Creator. We thus may all be called sons of God. Jesus himself gave credence to this when he suggested that God was His father in the same way as God remains father for us, when he stated: "I am ascending. . . to my father and your father, to my God and your God. . ." It thus seems fairly clear that "Sonship" needn't be seen in exclusive terms.

Nevertheless i am aware that the bible speaks of Jesus as being "the only begotten son" and also places a special light upon his "sonship". For this, i can only say two things: In the first place it is no doubt possible for Jesus to be a special son of God in one esoteric form or the other which we may not understand. However in the second place i must say that specific knowledge of such could not possibly be required of any human being as if it is the case, then it will be an advanced divine matter reserved for the understanding of Divine Beings. The dictates of a human conscience cannot be affected by such advanced knowledge, as i am convinced that "salvation" rests in the minute and the simple, the everyday kindnesses we can show one another, the strength to power a good volition, and nothing more. Thus, we are not required to know who he is, in terms of any such "sonship" or "divinity" - if at all such exists.

However i must state my own personal aversion towards any attempt to deify a human being, which i regard Jesus as being.

2. His death as salvation for mankind: In a way it could be said that this is actually the case, on the understanding that in the process of teaching TRUTH to mankind, he was killed. He may therefore be seen as a matyr, who laid down his life for the purpose of teaching people truth and ethics. However once again i do not believe that a human being has to be aware of this fact at all, much less accept it as true, in order to be "saved". I believe, as i said above, that a true and pure conscience is all that is required.

As a side note, let me state that my perception of Divine Justice is completely at variance with the idea that anybody can ritually "die" for any other persons sins, and thereby "justify" or "take away" such sins. I verily believe the words of Jesus himself when he stated "whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap". This statement, for me, contradicts the dogmatic idea of salvation by death on the Cross. Also, Jesus' parable of the Vineyard, makes it clear that the crucifixion was not the will of God, and the prayer in Gethsemane, shows that Jesus himself did not want it to happen.

3. Heaven and Hell: Certainly there are many realms of existence. Each individual's experience in each realm could be "heavenly", "hellish" or an admixture of both. I believe that the experiences will be determined by Karma ("Verily verily i say unto you, whatsoever a man soweth the same shall he reap".

4. The Bible: No doubt it contains alot of profound truth. But also alot of mistranslations, insertions, misunderstandings, misconceived dogma, aside from the fact that it is a selection from a vast body of existing works, many of which are missing today, and it must be remembered that the selection process was conducted by an institution (the Roman Church) which at the time was vastly corrupt (and dogmatic).

Aside from this, i agree with Pastor that no person needs any book to be saved (lest all illiterates be damned!) and for me the words of the "Book of Life" are imprinted on the spirit and conscience of each and every man.

Pastor, have i captured some of the subtleties you had in mind, of course i know i can neither capture all, nor be on the same wavelength as you are, being different individuals with different perspectives that we are.

1. Yes, Whether you conceptualize Jesus as the Son of God, his brother, or even his 2nd cousin thrice removed has little or no bearing on the actually experience of Christ.

2. I am at odds with you on the death and resurrection. I'll explain myself clearer. For me the historical event that occurred 2000 years ago is just a photocopy. The real event occurred beyond the realm of Time and History at 'the Foundation of the World'. Prior to time in eternity Christ was crucified and rose again. This event might manifest historically at some point in time however the real event occurred/occurs/will occur in Eternity.
Knowledge of the resurrection is a great source of strength because you realise that death is not an end and that we'll share in the resurrection. You become fearless of death and any other circumstances.

3. There are definitely various realms of existence. Some hellish, others heavenly.

4. I agree with your fourth point.

@Noetic

haha. U see what I mean? Read my post. . .I said "MOST", not "ALL".

I rest my case

Krayola:

Noetic your post makes no sense.

Are you aware that most of these illiterate early Christians became Christians because some Theodosius dude decided to make it the official religion of some empire. And that all it took to become a Christian was to say a creed and be baptized, and to refuse was to suffer, burn, be incarcerated, die. . ? You think the "spirit" convinced these people about the contents of some book they never read, while some guy was waiting to light their asses on fire should they refuse?

Just admit u don't have all the answers. Maybe God does, but your attempts aren't doing him much justice.,

Contrary to the fables you posted above, the early christians were persecuted and they demonstrated extreme levels of faith that the average christian today cannot even dream of. It is a historical fact that the christians were persecuted in the roman empire before constantine accepted christianity around the year AD320 and made it the official religion of the empire there after. Prior to that for almost three hundred years christianity had thrived as an "illegal" religion and it was practised at a great risk to the life of the beleivers. Several of them lost there lives becos of their faith in christ Jesus. So it is very wrong to claim that the early christians were forced to accept christianity. They did so purely by faith and they practised the purest form of christianity contrary too what we practise today. They understood the true gospel and you deed not need to be literate to understand i becos of it's simplicity, unfortunately centuries later due to various pulls and pushes of indoctrination by various men and various reasons christianity today is vastly different from that which was established by the apostles.

@ Kunleoshob.  haha. U need to stop feelin like an expert. . . u are not, and wrong.

My post mentioned Theodosius, so obviously I was referring to post constantine, which considering we are 1600 years past that, is "early" , . .  He was emperor after constantine, and he made Christianity the official religion of the empire, not Constantine. . Constantine only made it legal to practice christianity. . .Paganism was still the official state religion till Theodosius. After Theodosius," choose christianity or die" was the policy. the rest is history. (check those out for validity and get back at me  )

Can I just ask that you two pull on the reins a bit before it becomes a slanging match between the 2 of you? @Krayola I don't think you needed to question Kunleoshob's expert status. @KunleOshob I don't think you needed to call his contribution a fable whether or not you agree with it.

You are both right. Theodosius made christianity the state religion by decree. But also christianity had existed for about 400 years prior to that and the adherents were mostly illiterate.

haha. oya no vex Kunleoshob.

Persecution was not a universal policy before constantine. Some emperors were not going after christians. Nero and I think Diocletan were the main ones, but most of the rest mainly persecuted christians when they where reported as being rebellious.

@Pastor
Thanx, i would sheath my sword but not before mentioning that krayola tried to distort historical facts by saying just one part of the story and ignoring the other part which speaks even more volumes on early christianity.

Krayola:

haha. oya no vex Kunleoshob.

Persecution was not a universal policy before constantine. Some emperors were not going after christians. Nero and I think Diocletan were the main ones, but most of the rest mainly persecuted christians when they where reported as being rebellious.

Lesson noted i am sure we have a lot to learn from you since youare more of a professional in this terrain.

@pastor
I asked for your opinion on the meaning of a statement creditted to Jesus in the gospel of Thomas, i would repeat it here, could you kindly give an insight into it? Krayola your views would also be highly appreciated.

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Kindly let me know your understanding of the above scripture. Thanx.

KunleOshob:

@pastor
I asked for your opinion on the meaning of a statement creditted to Jesus in the gospel of Thomas, i would repeat it here, could you kindly give an insight into it? Krayola your views would also be highly appreciated.

These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.

1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Kindly let me know your understanding of the above scripture. Thanx.

I have some understanding of the verses that is My Understanding and may or may not be of value to you. What I proffer here is not an absolute authoritative meaning of the verses.

vs.1 I am reminded of another tradition that seeks to lead adherents to enlightenment by getting them to meditate on cryptic verses. The Zen tradition. They have verses called koans that disciples are supposed to meditate on. Here are some examples:

1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

13. A Buddha

In Tokyo in the Meiji era there lived two prominent teachers of opposite characteristics. One, Unsho, an instructor in Shingon, kept Buddha's precepts scrupulously. He never drank intoxicants, nor did he eat after eleven o'clock in the morning. The other teacher, Tanzan, a professor of philosophy at the Imperial University, never observed the precepts. Whenever he felt like eating, he ate, and when he felt like sleeping in the daytime he slept.

One day Unsho visited Tanzan, who was drinking wine at the time, not even a drop of which is suppposed to touch the tongue of a Buddhist.

"Hello, brother," Tanzan greeted him. "Won't you have a drink?"

"I never drink!" exclaimed Unsho solemnly.

"One who does not drink is not even human," said Tanzan.

"Do you mean to call me inhuman just because I do not indulge in intoxicating liquids!" exclaimed Unsho in anger. "Then if I am not human, what am I?"

"A Buddha," answered Tanzan.

71. Learning To Be Silent

The pupils of the Tendai school used to study meditation before Zen entered Japan. Four of them who were intimate friends promised one another to observe seven days of silence.

On the first day all were silent. Their meditation had begun auspiciously, but when night came and the oil lamps were growing dim one of the pupils could not help exclaiming to a servant: "Fix those lamps."

The second pupil was surprised to hear th first one talk. "We are not supposed to say a word," he remarked.

"You two are stupid. Why did you talk?" asked the third.

"I am the only one who has not talked," concluded the fourth pupil.

http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html


vs.2. I believe that what is found is initially disturbing because it does away with all the notions that give us comfort and security (falsely). It disorientates us. But it is just a stage that is soon followed by peace.

vs.3. The third verse reminds me of an Indian story I once heard. It goes like this:

When Man was first created he had so much Power and knowledge that certain gods became afraid. The connived together to steal the powers of Man. After the deed was done they were left with a problem. 'Where do we hide this power that we've stolen from man'?
They held a meeting and discussed. Some gods suggested that they hide the power in the Earth.
'No', said another god, 'this man is so crafty and curious that if we hide the power in the earth his curiosity will one day lead him to dig into the earth and he will rediscover the power'.

Another suggested in that case that they hide it in the wind. but again they concluded that crafty man would eventually investigate the wind and extract the power from it.

Some suggested Fire. But again they concluded that man would soon discover all the secrets within fire. Water was suggested, but that was soon dismissed too. There seemed to be no solution to the problem.

But then one young yogi (there were yogis at the meeting too) had a brilliant idea. He said,' let us take this great power and put it inside Man himself. I bet you my bottom dollar that when he awakes and finds his power gone he will begin his thorough search of Fire, Water, earth and Wind, but it will never ever occur to him to look within to find the power'.

All the gods rejoiced at the brilliant plan and that is what they did. They placed the Truth deep within the man himself and indeed till this day man seeks high and low and makes a thorough investigation into everything but it never occurs to him to quieten down and probe within.

4. Obedience

The master Bankei's talks were attended not only by Zen students but by persons of all ranks and sects. He never quoted sutras not indulged in scholastic dissertations. Instead, his words were spoken directly from his heart to the hearts of his listeners.

His large audience angered a priest of the Nichiren sect because the adherents had left to hear about Zen. The self-centered Nichiren priest came to the temple, determined to have a debate with Bankei.

"Hey, Zen teacher!" he called out. "Wait a minute. Whoever respects you will obey what you say, but a man like myself does not respect you. Can you make me obey you?"

"Come up beside me and I will show you," said Bankei.

Proudly the priest pushed his way through the crowd to the teacher.

Bankei smiled. "Come over to my left side."

The priest obeyed.

"No," said Bankei, "we may talk better if you are on the right side. Step over here."

The priest proudly stepped over to the right.

"You see," observed Bankei, "you are obeying me and I think you are a very gentle person. Now sit down and listen."

mmmh pastor, very thought provoking posts but not necessarily precise, i would prefer an answer within the salvation context being preached in churches today or better still what relevance it has to making 'heaven' or the Kingdom of God.

@ Kunle Oshob -

On the contrary, i believe Pastor's quotes did perfect and deep-lining justice to your request. It shows exactly where "salvation" rests - within.

Pastor, eku ise gaan o. That was sensationally apt.

Deep Sight:

@ Kunle Oshob -

On the contrary, i believe Pastor's quotes did perfect and deep-lining justice to your request. It shows exactly where "salvation" rests - within.

Pastor, eku ise gaan o. That was sensationally apt.

Well maybe what i had in mind was a comparison/ contrast to popular church doctrine since it is from a book rejected by the "church"

KunleOshob:

Well maybe what i had in mind was a comparison/ contrast to popular church doctrine since it is from a book rejected by the "church"

I see what you mean. I guess it is in direct contrast with what a lot of churches teach because those churches teach one to look for salvation in various phenomena around you rather than within you. eg. salvation is in the Bible, or salvation is in the pastor, or salvation is in the holy water, or the icons or whatever wherever. It could be that God is closer to us than we think, closer to us than our jugular vein, as a certain arab camel herder once put it. If it were not so then certainly those who are closer whether they be birds or beasts will certainly get to him before we do.

^^^ Well, inspite of the odds, it seems that i am actually going to leave this thread at the end very very fulfilled.

Pastor, now you have begun to nourish my soul, keep it up!

I would be deeply interested however, in an expatiation of the death and resurrection which you said occurred/ occurs in eternity. . .

After all said and done, 90% is just conjecture, nothing that can hold any real basis in reality.

^^^^^^What is "Reality'"?

Chrisbenogor:

After all said and done, 90% is just conjecture, nothing that can hold any real basis in reality.

What is conjecture? I was asked questions about my beliefs and I answered. Is it the beliefs that are conjecture? I stated quite clearly that I wasn't into doctrines or concepts as the basis of my faith so there is no way that I could be making conjecture. What doctrines I espoused have been derived from my experience. Okay, of course it is conjecture. But so is Newton's theory of Gravity. The experiential fact is that apples fall to the earth. The theories derived from it are conjecture.

Deep Sight:

^^^ Well, inspite of the odds, it seems that i am actually going to leave this thread at the end very very fulfilled.

Even with one testicle.

Pastor AIO:

Even with one testicle.

Pastor AIO:

Even with one testicle.

Pastor - it might dissapoint you to learn that i still have both my testicles perfectly safe.

I actually have a storehouse of cloned testicles matching my DNA which i usually use to gamble.

Sometimes i sell them to Ritualists who desperately need to win elections in Nigeria.

I am still waiting for your words on "death and resurection occuring in Eternity". . .

Thanks

Pastor I was borrowing the vague leaf from you, oya make I explain, by conjecture I just mean the supernatural has rarely ever meant and felt the same way to people. I was cool with your explanations and of course there are certain places where I cannot say I agree with you but as this thread was for you to explain your beliefs no wahala. It sounds like you have carefully thought out your convictions about God, about existence and all that but when you veer off into the Son of God, eternity, and every other thing, its just going to be guesses and guesses just like other people before you have done, that's all.

Chrisbenogor:

I was cool with your explanations and of course there are certain places where I cannot say I agree with you but as this thread was for you to explain your beliefs no wahala. It sounds like you have carefully thought out your convictions about God, about existence and all that but when you veer off into the Son of God, eternity, and every other thing, its just going to be guesses and guesses just like other people before you have done, that's all.

GBAM!

you folks are still here? Stop wasting your time arguing with this so called pastor. the last day we will know if he is truly one or not!

it's been 2 weeks since anyone was here until you came to ask if anyone was still here. What is it that you are really looking for?

@pastor. It is because you are not pastoring them right. Promise them every desirable thing in the afterlife, get their money, buy urself some Armani suits, a private jet, and a condo in the south of France. Feed some hungry people a few times a year and make sure you get it on camera. That's all the credibility u need. No real man of God is on the internet engaging people in intelligent conversation.

You've got a point there o! I will also change my name to Brother Jero. Remember him?

When I've bought my jet that'll will be sure proof that God has blessed me and they'll need to imitate me if they want the same blessing as me.

How unfortunate! I seem incapable of such deception. I keep saying the wrong things like 'we all have our own appropriation. Don't pray to be blessed with my blessings, but rather seek out that which has been appropriated for you'. This ministry na real suffer head o! And nobody likes a sufferhead pastor.

you never did reply me pastor?