KunleOshob:

It must be really lonely being the only deist on Nairaland hence your attempt to co-opt another "believer"

^^^ Successfully, wouldn't you say?

Deepsight. I do not think that you have actually found out what are Pastor AIO convictions. He is certainly not a deist. Look very closely to his reply on your argument of a primer mover and you may probably come close to what are his convictions. Cheers.

m_nwankwo:

Deepsight. I do not think that you have actually found out what are Pastor AIO convictions. He is certainly not a deist. Look very closely to his reply on your argument of a primer mover and you may probably come close to what are his convictions. Cheers.

I thought these below form a pretty good summary?

Deep Sight:

Well Pastor, we need to bring this to a close, so is it safe to conclude the following:

1. You believe in God, a supernatural creator of the universe, et al

2. You also believe in the Christ, and draw essential christianity therefrom

3. This Christ you believe to be love, harmony and order inherent in creation, and not necessarily knowledge of the Earthlife of Mr. Jesus from Nazareth and as such -

4. Any person of any religion, tribe or philosophy who can key-in with that love inherent in creation is well placed therein, and may experience the "harmony" that results therefrom, and this may in part be understood also as spiritual salvation.

5. Guidance comes through the spirit, which provides contextual ethics for man: that man may know right and wrong on a situational basis, each situation being different, as opposed to codified and rigid laws.

And please note that by Diest, i do not necessarily mean the strict interpretation of one who accepts a Supreme Deity exists, but is apathetic to worship and matters of the Spirit. . . I mean one who accepts that existence without the baggage of religion or dogma, and possibly with certain recognitions of universal truths as well. . .

Deism is quite flexible in concept. . .

Deep Sight:

I thought these below form a pretty good summary?

And please note that by Diest, i do not necessarily mean the strict interpretation of one who accepts a Supreme Deity exists, but is apathetic to worship and matters of the Spirit. . . I mean one who accepts that existence without the baggage of religion or dogma, and possibly with certain recognitions of universal truths as well. . .

Deism is quite flexible in concept. . .

My view is that it is only number 5 that is closer to his convictions and number 2 to a limited extent. cheers

Problem is Pastor may refuse to make a categorical statement on the identity of the individual called Jesus of Nazareth. . . that would have helped us on Nos. 2 & 3 above. . .

Deism (\ˈdi:iz(ə)m\)[1] or (\ˈdē-ˌi-zəm\)[2] is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without a need for either faith or organized religion. Deists tend to, but do not necessarily, reject the notion of divine interventions in human affairs, such as by miracles and revelations. These views contrast with a dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Judeo-Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I have never argued in favour of a creator from observation of the natural world alone, neither have I based my convictions on any form of reasoning.  I have said many times before that in spite of my obvious penchant for intellectual arguments I do not value them as anything worthwhile in spiritual matters.

Pastor AIO:

what about such christians as are illiterate?  Without being able to read the bible how do they discover this 'unique truth of the gospel of Christ themselves'.    Not to mention those that may be able to read but haven't the intellectual capacity to grasp theological arguments or points of doctrine. 

1. how did the illiterate accept the gospel?. . . . .did he understand what he was accepting?.
My point is . . . . what does it mean to be an "illiterate" in this context?. . . . . I honestly dont understand. . . . .why dont u help me?

2. when did theological arguments become the basis of deciphering the truth of the gospel? . .  .where did u get that from?
study your bible and pray. . . . . .and He will continue to teach and guide u through His spirit. . .  . . . .that was all Jesus said.

3. and why do u, a deist, call urself a pastor? . . . is that not FRAUD?

KunleOshob:

@Pastor
Nice questions, let's see noetic wriggle his way out of this one.

what is this? . .  .is this an organised collision or what?. . . .I expected better from u.

noetic15:

1. how did the illiterate accept the gospel[b]?[/b]. . . . .did he understand what he was accepting[b]?.[/b]
My point is . . . . what does it mean to be an "illiterate" in this context[b]?. [/b] . . . . I honestly dont understand. . . . .why dont u help me[b]?[/b]
2. when did theological arguments become the basis of deciphering the truth of the gospel[b]?[/b] . . .where did u get that from[b]?[/b]study your bible and pray. . . . . .and He will continue to teach and guide u through His spirit. . . . . . .that was all Jesus said.
3. and why do u, a deist, call urself a pastor[b]? [/b] . . . is that not FRAUD[b]?[/b]what is this? . . .is this an organised collision or what[b]?[/b]. . . .I expected better from u.

Just as i thought typical of Noetic to be answering questions with even more questions And whilst you are at it could you kindly show us from scriptures were Jesus said we should study the bible as i happen to be aware the bible was not compiled until almost 300 years after his ressurection.

KunleOshob:

Just as i thought typical of Noetic to be answering questions with even more questions And whilst you are at it could you kindly show us from scriptures were Jesus said we should study the bible as i happen to be aware the bible was not compiled until almost 300 years after his ressurection.

is this all u could come up with?

noetic15:

1. how did the illiterate accept the gospel?. . . . .did he understand what he was accepting?.
My point is . . . . what does it mean to be an "illiterate" in this context?. . . . . I honestly dont understand. . . . .why dont u help me?

Illiterate in this and every context is the same, the inability to read and write. I can accept that you simply don't want to answer the question, perhaps because you're simply unable to without compromising your dogma.

noetic15:


2. when did theological arguments become the basis of deciphering the truth of the gospel? . .  .where did u get that from?
study your bible and pray. . . . . .and He will continue to teach and guide u through His spirit. . .  . . . .that was all Jesus said.

I got that from reading your post, as that seemed to be what you are doing.

noetic15:

3. and why do u, a deist, call urself a pastor? . . . is that not FRAUD?

what is this? . .  .is this an organised collision or what?. . . .I expected better from u.

Let me answer this in your style. What do you understand by pastor? What do you understand by deist and how are the two mutually exclusive? I'm not even going to go into why you would say that I'm a deist.


I've got a feeling that this is becoming an organised collision indeed. I am colliding into you, watch it.

Deep Sight:

Well Pastor, we need to bring this to a close, so is it safe to conclude the following:

1. You believe in God, a supernatural creator of the universe, et al

2. You also believe in the Christ, and draw essential christianity therefrom

3. This Christ you believe to be love, harmony and order inherent in creation, and not necessarily knowledge of the Earthlife of Mr. Jesus from Nazareth and as such -

4. Any person of any religion, tribe or philosophy who can key-in with that love inherent in creation is well placed therein, and may experience the "harmony" that results therefrom, and this may in part be understood also as spiritual salvation.

5. Guidance comes through the spirit, which provides contextual ethics for man: that man may know right and wrong on a situational basis, each situation being different, as opposed to codified and rigid laws.

Pastor, you confirm that the above are accepted by you?

I like number 5 for the succinct way in which it summarises what I think.

I'm more cautious about accepting the others because they can easily be misconstrued or interpreted in ways that will no longer be accurate for me. So in a sense they are right and in another sense they are not right.

^^^Pastor, this thread was opened exactly because of comments like these from you. . . eternally ambiguous -

Pastor AIO:

So in a sense they are right and in another sense they are not right.

The questions are all very very simple and very very clear, and you can see that i have gone to great lengths to try to elicit answers from you.

I am very surprised that No. 4 is not outrightly acceptable to you.

I am also still perplexed at the way you recoil from being directly associated with Jesus Christ, and still profess yourself christian. . . On this thread alone, you have avoided identifying who he is, or being associated with him at least three times. . . Are you afraid of being seen as a Christian?

I must be honest when i say that i am beginning to feel entirely frustrated as we are exactly where we were before this thread. There is absolutely no clarity from you, and although i have gone silent on them, several severe and telling contradictions still remain.

My surmise of the 5 points above was an honest attempt to be clear on you. . . but there we go again. . . right in a sense and wrong in a sense. . .

Very soon, i will give up entirely.

With number 4 my reservations are around the part that says 'this can be understood as spiritual salvation'. I think salvation means different things to different people. I think for example that for people like noetic salvation means getting into heaven.
Finding Christ is a salvation, yes. But I don't want it to get mixed up with other people's notions of salvation, like I said there are many types of salvation.

Christ has many connotations for various people. I try to avoid a mix up by using terminology that many others use in a very different sense from me.

As I write this I realise that I've probably been a little over defensive. Perhaps because of your attempt to put me into a deist box. I resist categorisations because I'd rather you interacted with me as I am rather than with a label. When I say something I'd rather that you just reacted to what I said than to that fact that it is 'a christian' saying it, or 'a deist' saying it. Or 'a pastor' saying it.

I Give up -

Please don't. I am curious about where you see 'severe and telling contradictions'.

Just passing by so i decided to drop a line,

Pastor AIO:

Please don't.  I am curious about where you see 'severe and telling contradictions'. 

Pastor AIO:

With number 4 my reservations are around the part that says 'this can be understood as spiritual salvation'.  I think salvation means different things to different people.  I think for example that for people like noetic salvation means getting into heaven.
Finding Christ is a salvation, yes.  But I don't want it to get mixed up with other people's notions of salvation, like I said there are many types of salvation.

Christ has many connotations for various people.  I try to avoid a mix up by using terminology that many others use in a very different sense from me. 

I think that the highlighted words are contradictions.

Okay, so that it doesn't seem like I'm being unnecessarily difficult I will accept the 5 points above, and if at any point in time someone says something inaccurate about me as a result I can then go into explaining further why it is not the case.

So as things stand, I accept the 5 points.

sharp man:

Just passing by so i decided to drop a line,

I think that the highlighted words are contradictions.

How are they contradictions? I mentioned earlier things like financial salvation etc. Some see salvation as going to heaven etc. So when I say 'a salvation' rather than the salvation because there are various types, I don't see the contradiction. Could you spell it out to me?

Pastor AIO, If I may jump into the mix . . . I believe Deepsight is particularly curious about your belief on the person of Jesus Christ. So point blank,

- do you believe Jesus Christ is/was the son of God?
- do you believe He died and rose again for the salvation of the souls of mankind?
- do you believe men can be saved by believing in Him and living like Him?
- do you believe in hell or heaven? (hell and heaven as the bible describes)
- do you believe the bible (some parts or all) is from God?
- do you see the bible (some parts or all) as an authority on supernatural matters?

just some basic questions that are not meant to be confrontational, but should you decline to answer, that'll be fine.

Pastor AIO:

Illiterate in this and every context is the same, the inability to read and write.  I can accept that you simply don't want to answer the question, perhaps because you're simply unable to without compromising your dogma.

On the contrary. .  I dont have the habit of evading questions. . ,   I asked simply because I wanted to understand ur perception of "illiteracy".
I am puzzled as to how an illeterate got to make the "choice" of accepting Jesus in the first place as his/her Lord and saviour.

In light of ur definition. . . ,   .I'd expect the illiterate to pray and rely on God's spirit to discover the truth that lies within them. . . . .The spirit does not lie, neither does it mislead. I hope that answers ur question?.

I got that from reading your post, as that seemed to be what you are doing.

You are so very wrong. How have I offered theological arguments as a platform for understanding the gospel? All I have done is simply to present these analyses as they are.
All u have done is to TWIST the gospel to suit ur preconceived notions that DIFFER completely from the message of the gospel.

Let me answer this in your style.  What do you understand by pastor?  What do you understand by deist and how are the two mutually exclusive?  I'm not even going to go into why you would say that I'm a deist.

1. A pastor is one who shepherds the flock of God in the message of the gospel of Jesus. A pastor serves in a capacity within the church of God. A pastor proclaims the message of God to the lost sheep whom the chief shepherd (Jesus) came to save,  . . . . . .do u fit this description?

2. A deist is a person who believes God created the world but has abandoned it. A deist does not conform to spiritual beliefs or revelations.

3. A deist and pastor are mutually exclusive simply because . . . .a pastor is expected to be led by the spirit as an ambassador of God, A deist does not conform to spiritual influence.
A deist acknowledges the indifference of God to the world. . . .this is a contradiction to the entire purpose of the coming of Jesus. He came that we may know that heaven is concerned about our well being in this world and the one to come.
As such a deist CANNOT be a pastor. . . . . .unless u mean a pastor of a satanic/demonic or unGodly gathering.

I've got a feeling that this is becoming an organised collision indeed.  I am colliding into you, watch it. 

please do so. . . . . .I would love my ignorance, hypocrisy, false doctrines and lies to be exposed.

JeSoul:

Pastor AIO, If I may jump into the mix . . . I believe Deepsight is particularly curious about your belief on the person of Jesus Christ. So point blank,

- do you believe Jesus Christ is/was the son of God?
- do you believe He died and rose again for the salvation of the souls of mankind?
- do you believe men can be saved by believing in Him and living like Him?
- do you believe in hell or heaven? (hell and heaven as the bible describes)
- do you believe the bible (some parts or all) is from God?
- do you see the bible (some parts or all) as an authority on supernatural matters?

just some basic questions that are not meant to be confrontational, but should you decline to answer, that'll be fine.

I can bet you my left testicle that Pastor will not answer these questions. Its really strange.

Deep Sight:

I can bet you my left testicle that Pastor will not answer these questions. Its really strange.

ROTFLOL . . . that's a pretty hefty chip to put up as collateral  just hope and pray PastorAIO folds.

Well, just a little on my encounter with the 'pastor'.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-135166.0.html

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-135166.32.html

My Conclusion: He does not know the Lord or the truth for that matter.

The Lord Jesus Christ warned His followers, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15). The warning was important because Jesus later said to them: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves" (Matt. 10:16). The apostle Paul, with a deeply troubled spirit and in tears, penned a similar warning: "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock" (Acts 20:29).

Throughout church history these warnings concerning professing Christians who deceive even the elect have seldom been taken seriously. How can the church be so easily deceived? According to Webster's Dictionary "deceive" means "to lead astray or to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid." Could it be the church has not only lost its ability to discern truth from error but also to discern wolves from sheep?

Christians beware, watch and pray.

JeSoul:

Pastor AIO, If I may jump into the mix . . . I believe Deepsight is particularly curious about your belief on the person of Jesus Christ. So point blank,

- do you believe Jesus Christ is/was the son of God?
- do you believe He died and rose again for the salvation of the souls of mankind?
- do you believe men can be saved by believing in Him and living like Him?
- do you believe in hell or heaven? (hell and heaven as the bible describes)
- do you believe the bible (some parts or all) is from God?
- do you see the bible (some parts or all) as an authority on supernatural matters?

just some basic questions that are not meant to be confrontational, but should you decline to answer, that'll be fine.

- do you believe Jesus Christ is/was the son of God?

Yes.  But again this is not a straightforward issue.  eg. I do not mean son in the way that human beings procreate and bear sons.  

- do you believe He died and rose again for the salvation of the souls of mankind?

Yes. But again not straightforward cos I sense that you still understand something different from what I do.

- do you believe men can be saved by believing in Him and living like Him?

Yes, and again there are subtleties to this matter that I am glossing over.  eg.  What is meant by believing in him.  In his historical existence?  Or in what he had to say?  Living like him?  Certainly not be walking around like 1st century jew and giving sermons on mountains.  Again there are subtleties here that are being glossed over in order to give a simple one word answer.

- do you believe in hell or heaven? (hell and heaven as the bible describes)

No!  At least not the way it is described in churches around the world.  

- do you believe the bible (some parts or all) is from God?

I believe everything is from God.  But I think that what you are asking is whether God spoke or communicated the words of the bible 'directly' to the writers.  Not all of it.  

- do you see the bible (some parts or all) as an authority on supernatural matters?

Some parts of it yes.  But you can get authoritative knowledge on supernatural matters all around you without opening any book.

@ kolaxy. .IMO U are the type those verses are referring to.

noetic15:

On the contrary. .  I dont have the habit of evading questions. . , 

lol

Deep Sight:

I can bet you my left testicle that Pastor will not answer these questions. Its really strange.

I want that testicle.

Pastor AIO:

I want that testicle.

Pastor - I know that you only answered those questions out of your desperation to devour that testicle. However you have made a grave error: you will see that the wager was made with Jesoul, and not you. I have therefor parcelled it off and sent it to her mailing address. Right now i am recuperating from the surgical procedure that it took to extract these answers from you extract the testicle.

Thanks for the answers, and thanks, Jesoul.

Let me attempt, if i dare, to expound on the various subtleties that you referred to.

Please correct me wherever i am wrong: these are my perceptions, and i hope that in the matter of these subtleties, they are yours also.

1. Jesus as the Son of God: To the extent that all things and all beings are spawned by the creative will of God, we are, as Jesus was, all Children of the Creator. We thus may all be called sons of God. Jesus himself gave credence to this when he suggested that God was His father in the same way as God remains father for us, when he stated: "I am ascending. . . to my father and your father, to my God and your God. . ." It thus seems fairly clear that "Sonship" needn't be seen in exclusive terms.

Nevertheless i am aware that the bible speaks of Jesus as being "the only begotten son" and also places a special light upon his "sonship". For this, i can only say two things: In the first place it is no doubt possible for Jesus to be a special son of God in one esoteric form or the other which we may not understand. However in the second place i must say that specific knowledge of such could not possibly be required of any human being as if it is the case, then it will be an advanced divine matter reserved for the understanding of Divine Beings. The dictates of a human conscience cannot be affected by such advanced knowledge, as i am convinced that "salvation" rests in the minute and the simple, the everyday kindnesses we can show one another, the strength to power a good volition, and nothing more. Thus, we are not required to know who he is, in terms of any such "sonship" or "divinity" - if at all such exists.

However i must state my own personal aversion towards any attempt to deify a human being, which i regard Jesus as being.

2. His death as salvation for mankind: In a way it could be said that this is actually the case, on the understanding that in the process of teaching TRUTH to mankind, he was killed. He may therefore be seen as a matyr, who laid down his life for the purpose of teaching people truth and ethics. However once again i do not believe that a human being has to be aware of this fact at all, much less accept it as true, in order to be "saved". I believe, as i said above, that a true and pure conscience is all that is required.

As a side note, let me state that my perception of Divine Justice is completely at variance with the idea that anybody can ritually "die" for any other persons sins, and thereby "justify" or "take away" such sins. I verily believe the words of Jesus himself when he stated "whatever a man soweth, the same shall he reap". This statement, for me, contradicts the dogmatic idea of salvation by death on the Cross. Also, Jesus' parable of the Vineyard, makes it clear that the crucifixion was not the will of God, and the prayer in Gethsemane, shows that Jesus himself did not want it to happen.

3. Heaven and Hell: Certainly there are many realms of existence. Each individual's experience in each realm could be "heavenly", "hellish" or an admixture of both. I believe that the experiences will be determined by Karma ("Verily verily i say unto you, whatsoever a man soweth the same shall he reap".

4. The Bible: No doubt it contains alot of profound truth. But also alot of mistranslations, insertions, misunderstandings, misconceived dogma, aside from the fact that it is a selection from a vast body of existing works, many of which are missing today, and it must be remembered that the selection process was conducted by an institution (the Roman Church) which at the time was vastly corrupt (and dogmatic).

Aside from this, i agree with Pastor that no person needs any book to be saved (lest all illiterates be damned!) and for me the words of the "Book of Life" are imprinted on the spirit and conscience of each and every man.

Pastor, have i captured some of the subtleties you had in mind, of course i know i can neither capture all, nor be on the same wavelength as you are, being different individuals with different perspectives that we are.

noetic15:

On the contrary. .  I dont have the habit of evading questions. . ,   I asked simply because I wanted to understand your perception of "illiteracy".
I am puzzled as to how an illeterate got to make the "choice" of accepting Jesus in the first place as his/her Lord and saviour.

I perceive an inability to read or write as an inability to read or write. You do realise, I hope, that the greater part of humanity for the greater part of history has been illiterate, and that the majority of christians in the first few centuries were illiterate. Heck even up until 150 or so years ago in europe. oh . . . oh . . oh . . okay, I get it. You don't think that all those poor slaves that were martyred were real christians. Not real christians with a hotline directly to God such as yourself, Noetic. I understand now.

noetic15:

You are so very wrong. How have I offered theological arguments as a platform for understanding the gospel? All I have done is simply to present these analyses as they are.
All u have done is to TWIST the gospel to suit your preconceived notions that DIFFER completely from the message of the gospel.

What is an analyses? I would think that once you start analysing a text then you are no longer presenting the text 'as they are'.

Now let me give you an example of twisting and redefining terms to suit your agenda.

noetic15:

1. A pastor is one who shepherds the flock of God in the message of the gospel of Jesus. A pastor serves in a capacity within the church of God. A pastor proclaims the message of God to the lost sheep whom the chief shepherd (Jesus) came to save,  . . . . . .do u fit this description?

As such a deist CANNOT be a pastor. . . . . .unless u mean a pastor of a satanic/demonic or unGodly gathering.

please do so. . . . . .I would love my ignorance, hypocrisy, false doctrines and lies to be exposed.

Compare what you said above to the dictionary definitions of a pastor.

pas·tor (pstr)
n.
1. A Christian minister or priest having spiritual charge over a congregation or other group.
2. A layperson having spiritual charge over a person or group.
[/b]3. A shepherd.
tr.v. pas·tored, pas·tor·ing, pas·tors
To serve or act as pastor of.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin pstor, shepherd; see p- in Indo-European roots.]

pastor [ˈpɑːstə]
n
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a clergyman or priest in charge of a congregation
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a person who exercises spiritual guidance over a number of people
3. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Agriculture) an archaic word for shepherd [1]
4. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Animals) Also called rosy pastor a S Asian starling, Sturnus roseus, having glossy black head and wings and a pale pink body
[b][from Latin: shepherd, from pascere to feed]

Pastor means shepherd, someone who is in charge of the wellbeing of a flock (of sheep, but in a christian sense of people). Not just spiritual well being but in all their affairs. A Pastor feeds people. nurtures them. A pastor is not necessarily a preacher ( as you insist) but people can be pastored in different capacities. However I'm sure that you will not acknowledge that because it will not allow you to press your agenda. Now, is that not a fine example of hypocrisy.

^^^ Ecellent definition of the word 'Pastor'!

Now what do you make of those 'subtleties' i tried to address above.

Pastor AIO:

I perceive an inability to read or write as an inability to read or write. You do realise, I hope, that the greater part of humanity for the greater part of history has been illiterate, and that the majority of christians in the first few centuries were illiterate. Heck even up until 150 or so years ago in europe. oh . . . oh . . oh . . okay, I get it. You don't think that all those poor slaves that were martyred were real christians. Not real christians with a hotline directly to God such as yourself, Noetic. I understand now.

What is an analyses? I would think that once you start analysing a text then you are no longer presenting the text 'as they are'.

Now let me give you an example of twisting and redefining terms to suit your agenda.

Compare what you said above to the dictionary definitions of a pastor.
Pastor means shepherd, someone who is in charge of the wellbeing of a flock (of sheep, but in a christian sense of people). Not just spiritual well being but in all their affairs. A Pastor feeds people. nurtures them. A pastor is not necessarily a preacher ( as you insist) but people can be pastored in different capacities. However I'm sure that you will not acknowledge that because it will not allow you to press your agenda. Now, is that not a fine example of hypocrisy.

1. If an illiterate can make a rational decision to accept Jesus as his/her personal Lord and Saviour . . , .then he/she can decipher the truth. The holy spirit has that responsibility of helping such. And like u pointed out, the large chunk of humanity have been uneducated and have as such not had to read or write but have well ended up being christians. Deducibly one can state that formal reading or writing (literacy) has no place in knowing the truthof the gospel. Some get to know the truth by personal encounters, life experiences, dreams and revelations. To discard or accept these truths is at the discretion of the recipient. So back to my point. . . . , .deciphering the truth remains at the discretion of each individual.

2. ur definition of a pastor is really interesting. why did u not tell us what a shepherd leads the flock to do?
All I did was to define a pastor within the larger christian context. . . .is there any part of my definition that does not correspond to the functions of a pastor?
I have stated why a deist CANNOT be a pastor . . . .am I wrong? how can a deist pastor a spirit filled church? will there not be a diconnect between the church and the holy spirit?

My definition of a pastor stands, unless u deny that the core message of a pastor is the salvation of the flock as commanded.