A question was asked by Shahan on the thread 'Is Jesus God?'. the question is ' before Jesus became a man, WHO WAS HE (IN HEAVEN)? I like to know everyones thought on this.

Surely a Boy

lafile:

A question was asked by Shahan on the thread 'Is Jesus God?'. the question is ' before Jesus became a man, WHO WAS HE (IN HEAVEN)? I like to know everyones thought on this.

Hee-hee-hee!

I go just maintain for now until others contribute. Cheers.

shahan oya now. i heard a very popular preacher here in lagos say jesus did not exist as a person before his birth. that he only existed as the word. (i hope i got it right sha). and i really think this will clear some doubts about the Trinity.

By the way, can we all ignore the kinky rev on this thread? i mean totally ignore.

@lafile,

I'll post something in a while that might be of interest after settling in for the day. . . wanna go see some of my pallies b4 I travel again!

Cheers.

NB. Yep, we'll just iggy Rev.

well , in the beginning was "the word" and the word was with God, and the word was God.

so I believe the pastor meant it in that context.

I believe Jesus has always been the begotton son of God, and the trinity existed before the creation of man.

We were made in his image and likeness , father, son, and holy ghost , body, soul, and spirit man.

trini_girl
You have said it all

@lafile,

Right, I'm back now - and thanks for your patience. Quickly to the point. At least a lot of people have no issues with accepting the Humanity of Jesus Christ; but that is as far as it takes some of them. To even suggest that the same Bible declares the deity of Jesus is something that is unacceptable to many. However, the question that might be helpful to us in considering this issue is:

Who Was Jesus Before He Became A Man?

Other questions that might be ancillary to the above are: 'Did Jesus even exist before He became Man? If He had a pre-Human existence, what was His nature?' The answer to the first, of course, is that Jesus actually existed before He became Man, and this is established in the following texts:

Micah 5:2
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

The last clause reveals that the Messiah was heralded to be from everlasting - pointing to His eternal past. I offer that the pre-Human existence of Jesus was confirmed by Himself in John 5:58 when He said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Nevermind the arguments about the last two words of that verse for now - however one may interpret them. The substance of the verse is that Christ truly attested to His pre-Human existence as occuring even before Abraham's existence.

His Pre-Human Nature

We next come to the question of what His nature was in His pre-Human existence. Some would have us believe that He was an angel, albeit the highest angel to have been first created by God before others; or something like that. The collective testimony of Scripture refutes that idea; and here's why -

(a) angels were never involved in creation
Not one verse in the Bible shows any angel to have been involved in the divine work of creation. However, several times in Scripture we read of the Jesus as the Creator together with the Father and the Spirit [John 1:3; Psa. 104:30 & 148:5; Isa. 45:12].

(b) angels were never created to be worshipped
Again, not one angel was to be worshipped in God's divine economy (and only fallen angels actually seek worship). However, when God brought His firstbegotten into the world, He proclaimed: "And let all the angels of God worship him" [Heb. 1:6]. If Jesus had been an angel, He surely would not have been worshipped by any other angel.

So, what then was the nature of Jesus before He became Man? He was God. He was exactly what God the Father and the Holy Spirit have been from all eternity; and in the following entry, I'll be adducing some texts to the point.

Cheers.

waiting, (not likes babs787 sha o)

@lafile,

Hope the previous entry helped. We start off by asking another question that may be helpful on the subject: Why did the apostle John write in his epistles about confessing "that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" (see I John 4:2-3 & II John 7)? This strengthens the understanding that indeed Jesus had an existence before He came in the flesh (or, before He became Man). We have already established His pre-Human existence as God. Now to adduce texts that support the claim of Jesus' nature as deity (God).

Jesus' Pre-Human Existence as God

John 1:1
Many people struggling with the deity of Jesus would rather look away from this verse; or they would seek some so-called translations that categorically deny what it says. An example is the NWT used by the JW group, and scholars have exposed the fraud in its pretended erudition.

The conventional rendering of the verse well-captured in the KJV is:

               "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

This is more or less the same rendering as in the NIV, ASV (American Standard Version), Darby, Douay-Rheims Bible 1899, ESV, LITV, RV and a few others. The argument by the JW group that "the definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os′ (God) but not before the second" is a weak premise for denying that Jesus was God. Rather, when compared the results show that the Word/Logos (i.e., Jesus) was actually God, not just 'divine' as if He was "a god".

However, we need to be careful here to understand that John 1:1 is not stretching the deity of Jesus to mean that He was the Father; rather, it only concretely evinces to us that the Logos (Jesus the Son) was exactly what the Father was in His essence as "God". This is clear from the Greek construct itself in the Textus Receptus (TR) manuscript; and if we attempt a rough transliteration of the verse, this is what we have:

          Greek:  εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος
          English: in beginning was the logos and the logos was with the god and god was the logos
          outline:
          in(εν) beginning(αρχη) was(ην) the(ο) logos(λογος) and(και) the(ο) logos(λογος) was(ην) with(προς) the(ο) god(θεον) and(και) god(θεος) was(ην) the(ο) logos(λογος)

Look again at the last two clauses: "the logos was with the god and god was the logos". Two interesting things here: (a) "the god" and "god" were not two separate 'Gods' - that would be paganism. The verse rather points out that what the Father was in His essence as God, the logos (the Son) also was exactly the same in essence; (b) the verse also makes clear that the Son was with the Father in intimate fellowship (see verse 2), and therefore could not have been a created being.

How did the other apostles express the essence of the Son? The writer of Hebrews calls Him (the Son) "the brightness of His [i.e., the Father's] glory, and the express image of His [the Father's]  person" - meaning that the Son is the very expression of who and what God the Father is in Himself. Paul affirms this in II Cor. 4:4 - "Christ, who is the image of God"; and in Col. 1:15 - "the image of the invisible God". Does it then make sense when Jesus said whosoever had seen Him had seen the Father (John 14:9)? Jesus did not say "has seen God", but has seen the "the Father". He came to declare the Father (John 1:18), and has done exactly that in Heb. 2:12.

From the foregoing, it now becomes clear that before Jesus became Man, He was always God in eternity. He was not a created being, for indeed the inspired apostle tells us that He created all things (John 1:3). This is why John wrote that He "came in the flesh" (I John 4:2-3 & II John 7).

Next we shall be examining the testimony of the other apostles on Jesus deity.

Bless up.

@ Shahan,

God bless you for that exposee once again.
Also never forget to note, when Daniel and His friend were thrown into the fiery furnace, what did the King say, sorry my bible is not here with me, but I am definitely sure that was Jesus in the burning fire with them!

Wish i could remember what the King Nebucchanezzar said!

@mrpataki,

Lol. . . many blessings to you as well. Here's Nebuchadnezzar's quip:

Dan. 3:25 - "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

There's so much noise and distraction in our house just now _{partying and stuff}. . .When the noise has died down, I'll be able to concentrate and post the sequel to my previous entry.

Cheers.

Jesus possessed the form of God as expressed by Paul in Phillipians 2. Paul in Collosians referred to Christ as "the express image of the Father"

So from all indications Jesus was very much God, with all the attributes of His Father. Recall also that Jesus created the universe. He hholds it together according to Paul in Collosians.

i'm really enjoying this.

It's been a very busy weekend for me; but I trust the sequel will be posted later today - and you can look forward to something equally good.

if he was a boy before he was man, or was a word before he was man,all the same it means there was a time he didnt exist, so how the hell is he gon be God?
if indeed he is a son of God, there should have been a time that he was not alive, cos the dad precedes the son,  showing that he is not eternal, so how the hell is he gon be God?
THINK, REFLECT O CHRISTIANS.

@Islampride,

Jesus Christ is not like Muhammad. The Son of God created Muhammad a man; but the sinful Quraish prophet didn't like to hear that - for the simple reason that if he acknowledged that, then he would have to forsake his sins.

Muhammad loved sin - the Qur'an and Hadiths prove that to the letter. After his career, the sinner cried that he did not know what his *allah would do to him. We can guarantee you that he will stand before the very same One he denied, and will be severely punished for his atrocities.

Keep calm and keep reading - you might learn a thing or two that will help you embrace the Saviour before it is too late, and escape the same fate as Muhammad charted for himself.

Cheers.

shahhan or whateva,
u the dumbest clown i ever seen, how would the son of god create man, where was God?
was He on vac?
face facts , thats a reasonable question for u again, stop running away. answer how will he be God when he has a dad, tha preceded him, and how will he be eterenal when there was a time that he was not alive?
he has a beginnign so definitely he will have an end, so how would that be God?

stop running answer, call the pope, text ur bishop, i need answers pls. stop insulting , no side talking, straight forward answers pls.

@Islampride
where did u get the idea that Jesus had a beginning?

jesus was gos in his preincarnate nature before he came from heaven. he was god and is still god.

@ezeking, many blessings for that confession. You will not lose your reward according to what you know in God's Word.

islampride:

shahhan or whateva,
u the dumbest clown i ever seen,

. . . i need answers please. stop insulting , no side talking, straight forward answers please.

@Islampride,

I really don't mind your insults while pleading at the same time that I don't send any your way. Such is a fact of life and it's of little consequence to me.

islampride:

how would the son of god create man, where was God?
was He on vac?
face facts , thats a reasonable question for u again, stop running away. answer how will he be God when he has a dad, tha preceded him, and how will he be eterenal when there was a time that he was not alive?
he has a beginnign so definitely he  will have an end, so how would that be God?

I have offered some reasonable answers to address your questions in another thread: The Qur'an Fraud Contradictions or Great Truths?. There you will find answers to such questions as to the fact of Jesus eternal existence, His deity, and His death as Man while still upholding all things as God.

As to the Father's preceding Him, nowhere in the Qur'an or the Bible is that expression found; nor can you defend the idea that He had a beginning and therefore will have an end.

If you still are not clear after reading my rejoinders as referred, please get back to me and I'll oblige you a walk through the issues that becloud your thinking on the subject.

Cheers.

Surely He was God!
see john chapter one verse one down.
in the beginning was the word and the word was with God

The word is Jesus christ.

ALEXMAKAY,
SOMEONE HAS A DAD. DOESNT IT BEHOVE THE INTELLECT THAT THERE IS A TIME THAT THE SON WOULD NOT EXIST?
REASON WITH ME!SEEMS U R SOME HOW COOL UNLIKE THE OTHER FANATICS IN HERE.PLS THINK ABOUT THAT. THE FATHERT PRECEDES THE SON, OBVIOUSLY. SO IT SHOWS HE HAS A BEGINNING THAT IS DETERMINED BY WHEN HE WAS CONCEIVED.


ESCAPIST SHAHAN.
U DONT HAVE TO RUN AWAY. ANSWER HERE. ANYWAY I VE SEEN UR ANSWERS BUT THEY R NOT PLAUSIBLE.I VE REPLIED TO THE BABBLES ANY WAY.SO U CAN ALWAYS REPLY AGAIN OR ESCAPE.

DOES REVELATIUON HAVE TO TELL U THAT BEFORE U KNOW?(THAT HE HAS A BEGINNING) AND FORUR INFO IN MANY PLACES IN THE QURAN, THERE IS PROOF THAT HE HAS A BEGINNING.
SEE THE STORY OF HIS CREATION.
I WONT TALK ABOUT THE BIBLE, A BOOK THATS AS CORRUPT AS KURRUPT. OOUCH

@Islampride,

You really have your eyes turned in your sockets if you think I've been running. . . lol. There's really no need for you to foam in the mouth if you can't keep up. Tip: you can enlarge the fonts to point 24 and embolden them to shout all you want; it won't change the truth of the Bible even if Muhammad denied them to his doom. Just dress warm and keep reading - you will learn a thing or two that will help your reverse-IQ.

@islampride,
Thank you for commending me,cos religion is all about containing and tolerating other peoples religion.

But let me ask u?
Jesus christ was never the son of God during the creation, but he was made the son when He God incarnated in form of God to save mankind.
so to tell me that jesus was formerly a son who only come from the father is a mere falacy.
read the bible and understand me.
sorry if i may sound rude.

Next we shall be examining the testimony of the other apostles on Jesus deity.

That's precisely what follows now:

The Testimony of the Apostles on the Deity of Jesus

Regardless the various translations and versions of the Bible, the collective testimony of Scripture shows that the apostles had the revelation of Jesus as very God Himself in His essence. This testimony was carefully preserved in all their ministry in the various contexts where they discoursed the work and Person of Jesus Christ. It is a mystery that no human lanuage adequately captures, but which nonetheless holds true, such as birthed the exultation we read of in I Tim. 3:16 - "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." The import of the clause 'God was manifest in the flesh' points to Jesus as deity come in the flesh - the revealed truth which all divinely inspired prophets of the OT have variously referenced.

First, let's take a look at the OT prophecies of His deity, and then come back to the NT to see the revelation on this subject.

God Manifest in Flesh. . .

Two of the clearest references to the Lord Jesus being God manifest in flesh are Isaiah 9:6 and Micah 5:2 (of course, there are others).

"For unto us a child is born" says the prophet, "and unto us a son is given: the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." The One who is deity (God) would be born as Human, whose name shall be called "The Mighty God"! For those who think that this is a reference to a mere title, Isaiah's prophecy refutes that indeed - he says the Mighty God is "His NAME" (not title)!

Micah furnishes us with the revelation of His eternal existence: "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." The One who steps into time has infact been from eternity (same word as 'everlasting'). Existing as God without a reference point of measurement in time or space, yet in the fullness of time appointed by divine prerogative, He came in the flesh as the Man Jesus Christ. Even under intense suffering, blessed Job captures this revelation so well that no careful reader could miss it: "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25-26).

. . .As the Redeemer

The significance of this is multiplex. The OT prophets had variously proclaimed that the Redeemer would come as the divine Saviour; and for them there were no two divine "saviours" but only One. In no uncertain terms, Israel's prophets knew this Redeemer to be the LORD God Himself: "As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel" (Isa. 47:4); and, "Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with Him is plenteous redemption; And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities" (Psa.130:7-8). The LORD affirmed this revelation by declaring: ". . .thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob" (Isa. 60:16).

What is even more remarkable is that this Redeemer-Saviour would come in flesh, as a Man, in absolute Humanity. The Psalmist encapsulated this revelation in Psa. 49:7-8, alluding to the value of the true Sacrifice: "None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever." The value of the Ransom that avails for eternity is predicated on the worthiness of the One who gives it. As no man was worthy or qualified on account of having been tainted by iniquity (Psa. 51:5), there was only One who could truly provide that ransom - God Himself. This is why Isaiah 9:6 proclaims His incarnation centuries before the prophecy was fulfilled - "unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given". In that verse, the One who is the Mighty God is presented to us as a Child, a Son!

Even much earlier, God Himself was the first to declare the prophecy of His incarnation in Gen. 3:15 - the Seed of the woman who was to bruise the head of Satan, that old Serpent. The whole of humanity was in the grip of a fallen nature up until Christ, which in one sentence was simply this: "in Adam all die" (I Cor. 15:22). However, when the Son of God became flesh and was to be born as the Man Jesus Christ (John 1:14), the angels described Him as "that Holy thing" (Luke 1:35), pointing to the revelation that He was not under the grip of the fallen nature as the rest of the human race.

The great revelation of the New Testament is the incarnation of the Son of God. Many who have been troubled about the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ can rest assured that this is not a new idea of the dozen men who followed the Nazarine in the first century; neither was it a doctrine made up to elevate Jesus to godhood in the Nicene Council in the 3rd century. The deity of the Son of God had been well established in the OT prophets before the first advent. The remarkable thing about the Incarnation is the weight of confession it brings to our hearts; for we are drawn to see Him in His deity, and proclaim with the prophet in Isa. 54:5:

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called"

Yes, for verily, Jesus is the God of the whole earth!

Lord willing, we'll next gather the harvest of Jesus Deity in the New Testament.

May the God of the whole earth richly bless you.

alexmakay.

is a son made or born?
when tupac said he is a made nigga, people raised eyebrows, buthe was a rapper so it was understandable.but we r now talkin on what the salvation of about 2billion people in the world and the hereafter depend, so we shouldnt take chances. i think u have to really think about it. falsehood has no two names, it is always falsehood.
thanks.

plus u need to go down some history lane to really understand what the divinity of jesus means.it wasnt something that came when he was alive or some few yrs after him,but many years after. we know how many meetings were held, how many protests wee held, how many people were burnt just to establsih the deity of a noble and pious man.

so let me leave it like this, i hope shahan learns somethings about herfaith here. wowwwww.

Jesus was God before he came as flesh.
Gen 1: 1 Let US make man in our image. US; This is God the father speaking with God the son and God the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand This is the Father speaking to the Son.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was I AM This is Jesus confirming that He had always been from everlasting

Are you then the Son of God?" He (Jesus) replied, "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:70).

Hence the correct answer is that Jesus was the second person in the godhead, the Son of God, functioning as the word of God, before he came as a man to save the world.

islampride:

is a son made or born?
when tupac said he is a made nigga, people raised eyebrows, buthe was a rapper so it was understandable.

This is how Muslims reason - far-fetched illusions that do not even help Islam one bit. If asked what significance it bears to the present discussion, this is the typical backdoor excuse:

islampride:

but we r now talkin on what the salvation of about 2billion people in the world and the hereafter depend, so we shouldnt take chances.

There's always got to be a "but" somewhere in an unfinished Islamic apology.

Even when we talk about the salvation of billions of souls, is the polytheistic paganism on the pages of the Qur'an not as clear as the noon-day? How can we take chances with a self-confessed sinner, pedophile, leader of marauding brigand, and murderer?

islampride:

i think u have to really think about it. falsehood has no two names, it is always falsehood.
thanks.

One doesn't have to think hard on this one - the falsehood in Islam has only one face: 'Falsehood with a capital F.' 

islampride:

plus u need to go down some history lane to really understand what the divinity of jesus means.it wasnt something that came when he was alive or some few years after him,but many years after.

Capital falsehood again! Is this the reason why Muhammad was afraid to make any reference to the prophets Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah and Jeremiah - all of whom spoke of the deity of Jesus Christ centuries before He came to earth? Is this why Muslims are so scared to read the Psalms of David in the Bible even though *allah in the Qur'an claims to have revealed them to David? Falsehood has no two faces; but yours fly in every direction like the spokes of a bicycle tyre.

islampride:

we know how many meetings were held, how many protests wee held, how many people were burnt just to establsih the deity of a noble and pious man.

Another falsehood that you can't defend? Let me humour you for the moment: please cut and paste what you believe to be the history that you pander about.

islampride:

so let me leave it like this, i hope shahan learns somethings about herfaith here. wowwwww.

Told you before: keep reading and you'll be schooled enough to see the glory of Jesus Christ, the God of the whole earth! 

Shahan, Islampride

Whilst exchanging your views, it may interest you to know that you are ministering to some of us. So a little christ-like or mohammed-like character would help your cause.

Shahan, personally, I am quite impressed by your understanding of the word. But it seems beclouded by a certain anger towards your moslem brothers and their beliefs.

Afterall, did Jesus not say; love those that despise you?

I doubt if it is anger towards muslims, but anger towards that Quarish nikka Mo, and the ideology of Islam.

Grouppoint:

Shahan, Islampride

Whilst exchanging your views, it may interest you to know that you are ministering to some of us. So a little christ-like or mohammed-like character would help your cause.

Shahan, personally, I am quite impressed by your understanding of the word. But it seems beclouded by a certain anger towards your moslem brothers and their beliefs.

Afterall, did Jesus not say; love those that despise you?

grouppoint,

although i may disagree with how shahan delivers her point sometimes, the purpose of this forum to exchange information, ideas and to have discussions. However, if in the process you are ministered to, wonderful.

I think shahan is passionate about this topic because of her history, and her passion sometimes gets the better of her now that she's moved from darkness to light and the truth has set her free

but it's all in good spirit. we are all here to learn and exchange ideas, even argue a point, that's the fun of it isn't it?