Abuzola  1:

Mr man why are you arrogantly denying the truth, i wrote two hadith and two ayats that jesus the son of mary is coming instead you said it is another jesus. Am really scared of your doctrine.

How many jesus son of mary do we ve in the Quran ? One or two, i asked you to tell me which jesus ascended come to talk of descending, was it not jesus the son of mary. Now i know how you guys are herectic. Truely herectic, 



@olabowale: niyi and the congregation of ahmadiya disbelieve in the coming of imam mahdi, despite numerous hadith stating that mahdi and prophet isa will meet and argue at masjidil haram on who to give the solah prayer. The ahmadi believe that their indian founder of ahmadiya ahmad ghulam is the mahdi , he had came and gone

thanks the holy prophet was called a mad man by the meccans.
I have already proved from the quran and with traditions that jesus is dead and the holy prophet also stated his age.
The idea of jesus been raised to heaven is contrary to the quran. If you can prove it, then your view can be established.
Remember that the holy quran also described the holy prophet as ('nazala') descend(65:10-11), but nobody ever thought that the holy prophet came down from the heaven.
You can call the Ahmadis whatever name you like. The previous prophet were also called all sort of names. So, continue to call us all sort of names.
Calling the Ahmadis kafirs because they dont accept your view, is that what the holy prophet taught you?
There are some muslim sects who believe that it is ali who suppose to be the prophet and not muhammad (saw), according to you, they are muslims. Some believe ali will even come back. Some belive God is having begining and so on. Go to google and find out yourself. If i give you a website you might be thinking its an ahmadiyya created website (astagfirulla).

Nope, ahmadiyya are the only sect that say jesus will not come. All the school of taughts agree that he is coming because of the sahih hadith.


Who is the another jesus you considered to be coming, who is the son of mary that will descend, let me ve the details in hadith or Quran

If MUTAWAFFI KA in means sleep in that context, it means you believe he is sleeping up there in heaven. How absurd is that idea.
In sura maryam, 33, he says 'and He has made me blessed whereso ever i may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as i live.
If he is sleeping, and he is not yet dead, how is he going to observe this commandment he says Allah has giving to him? Because he says "AS LONG AS I LIVE",from this also it means he is dead.
In 3:144, Allah says and muhammad is only but a messenger. Verily,all messengers have passed away before him,
If jesus is alive, God would have made the exception. About the destruction of the people of lut, God made us know that he will destroy all of them with the exception of the family of lut. He also made the exception of his wife from his family.
Concerning the nations which did not accept the message of God, God said that He destroyed all of them EXCEPT the people of Yunus. God made the exception clear. Therefore, if jesus be alive, He would have made it clear explicit. As for bukhari been the most authentic tradition, know that the shite do not accept the six authentic hadith. They believe and accept the musnad as superior followed by the rest. But i do not say i do not accept it.

If MUTAWAFFI KA in means sleep in that context, it means you believe he is sleeping up there in heaven. How absurd is that idea.
In sura maryam, 33, he says 'and He has made me blessed whereso ever i may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as i live.
If he is sleeping, and he is not yet dead, how is he going to observe this commandment he says Allah has giving to him? Because he says "AS LONG AS I LIVE",from this also it means he is dead.
In 3:144, Allah says and muhammad is only but a messenger. Verily,all messengers have passed away before him,
If jesus is alive, God would have made the exception. About the destruction of the people of lut, God made us know that he will destroy all of them with the exception of the family of lut. He also made the exception of his wife from his family.
Concerning the nations which did not accept the message of God, God said that He destroyed all of them EXCEPT the people of Yunus. God made the exception clear. Therefore, if jesus be alive, He would have made it clear explicit. As for bukhari been the most authentic tradition, know that the shite do not accept the six authentic hadith. They believe and accept the musnad as superior followed by the rest. But i do not say i do not accept it.

God carried him while he was asleep, pls answer my question and don't try to be cunning

@Niyi53: « #58 on: Yesterday at 07:28:38 PM »

@olabowale, i said i believe he is coming, but not the first jesus. Yes there is going to be two jesus, as there were two elijah.
You and abuzola have not yet refute my views with the quran and hadith.
Whether there is going to be two jinn or not, its not my concern, and what does that has to do with ones faith?
Provide the verses which says jesus is in heaven and prove it. It is not possible that jesus die and come back to life again, its against the quranic teachings

I was wondering if there is verse that says that Jesus is in Second heaven with his cousin Yahya bin Zakariyya (AS), while Adam (AS) is on first, Musa on sixth, telling Muhammad (AS) to ask Allah to reduce the number of daily salah until is settled at 5 per day, and Ibrahim on seventh leaning against Bait Mamur? We learn about these in ahadith, each authentic agreeing with Quranic verse or verses that it explain!

« #59 on: Yesterday at 08:42:44 PM »
@Abuzola and olabowale. I am still expecting your views in the light of the holy quran and and hadith to refute what i have presented.
There is a tradition of the holy prophet in kanzul ummal, which fixed the age of jesus at 120 yrs.
And there is also another which says 'if moses and jesus were alive, they would have among my followers(tafsir ibn katheer.
Is the holy prophet also contradicting himself?

The first bolded, is it authentic? The second bolded was said when Umar bin Khattab (RA) was glowing just because he was reading te Taurah of Musa (AS), while the Professor of religion Muhammad (AS) was with them. There is a verse in the Surah Imran that is line of this, which the ahadith forbidding Umar and you and I to read Taurah, Sabur and Injil as they have each in the Bible, even though we have to believe their authenticity as they were revealed to each prophet (AS) who received them. The verse in the Surah Imran is saying that "Allah took covenant from the Prophets, saying to them "if My Messenger were to arrive when you are on earth in your prophetic office, and you hear about his messengership, you must aid him and assist him." All of the prophets answered affirmatively to Allah that they will."

Niyi53, did any of them was still walking the street of any town any nation any continent when Muhammad arrived with the final phase to complete the religion given to man (Islam) by Allah? No. But if any were to be alive, wouldnt he have came to the aid and assistance and followership of Muhammad? Yes.

Allah's statement to the prophets before they were body and soul was simply repeated to the Prophet and the Muslims in the Quran to let them know what had happened in the past (qasas). This is also similar to the gathering of man souls together and taking the oath from them, Allah saying to them "Am I not your Lord?"

I think you are having sahih muslim? In it, the holy prophet said "kayfa antum iza nazala fiikum ibn maryam wa imamukum minkun"(how will you be when the son of mary descend among you and he will be an imam from among you), in another statement of the same book he used "wa am makum minkum"(and he will be an imam from among you). This tradition is making us know that the jesus would be from among the muslim umma.
I have already presented to you the tradition in which the holy prophet stated that jesus spent 120 yrs, and in that tradition, the holy prophet said that he would spend half of the age jesus spent. If therefore jesus is still alive, then the holy prophet is to still be alive.

I think you are having sahih muslim? In it, the holy prophet said "kayfa antum iza nazala fiikum ibn maryam wa imamukum minkun"(how will you be when the son of mary descend among you and he will be an imam from among you), in another statement of the same book he used "wa am makum minkum"(and he will be an imam from among you). This tradition is making us know that the jesus would be from among the muslim umma.
I have already presented to you the tradition in which the holy prophet stated that jesus spent 120 yrs, and in that tradition, the holy prophet said that he would spend half of the age jesus spent. If therefore jesus is still alive, then the holy prophet is to still be alive.

Why dont you find out the verse which says jesus is in the second heaven, yahya also with him, and so on? There is no such verse in the quran! I have read the quran from the begining to the end and i have never come across such verse.

The verse of the quran you quoted about taking covenent from prophets NEVER mentioned that such a prophet would be on earth walking, (3:81).

As for whether the quoted hadith is authentic or not, thats a baseless idea. Do you think the hadith we are having is only confined to the six authentic hadith? Let me tell you, there is no book authentic as the quran. It is having first class authenticity. May be you have not heard of kanzul ummal, baihaqi, hakam, musnad ibn hambal, dar u qutni and so on. Even hadith abu daud, is considered to be having some weak hadith in it. Even bukhari is also considered by some scholars to be having some weak traditions in it.
I want the two of you to prove from the quran that jesus was really raised bodily to heaven while asleep.
I would like to know how jesus is eating up there as God says in sura ambiya,8, and we gave them not a body that eats not nor were they to live eternally.

@Niyi53: « #40 on: December 01, 2009, 10:08 AM »  

I believe jesus christ is dead the way other prophets died, but not on the cross. I also believe that "isa ibn maryam" is coming as foretold by the holy prophet (saw).

If you believe that he was dead in India, yet he is still coming back to signal end of time, to fight Dajjal at least, if nothing else, can you tell me if he will die a second death, so that the verse of Surah Rahman sayying that all things will die on earth and in heaven and what shall remain is Allah. Please tell me if Isa bin Maryam will have to die the second time, since there is an ahadith that says that when Allah is the Only One Living He will ask, "who is alive, including the kings of the earth? When there is no one to respond, Allah will say "it is Allah Alone Who remains." Will this condition ever to happen except Jesus shall die when he returns, while Allah says all soul shall taste death once?

The holy quran mentioned his death in a number of places more than it even mentioned the death of other prophet. And one fact still exist, and it is as long as the muslims are still believing that jesus is still alive, they are supporting them in their belief, because they would (in that case be worshipping a living god)

Please note that each time it was mentioned, it was as in a story being told of what has passed. For example, when Jesus was defending his mother, he said "the day I die", could that mean that he was dead when he was saying this? No. When Allah says to Isa "I will cause you to die," was he dead as this was being said? No. When Allah was saying in Surah Maida "Oh Isa bin Maryam did you tell people to worship you and your mother as gods with Allah?" Was that event taken place already, since it is for the day of Judgement? No.

 

This are my evidence (from the quran) that he is dead:
1) 5:117-  'and i was a witness over them as long as i remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them;and Thou Witness over all things'.

This is a conversation that Allah says that will occur on the day of Judgement! Has the day of Judgement occurred, or the signs of the last day here, already? No. Therefore there is still room before day of Judgement for Isa to actually die, since you believe in his second coming, he will die the first and the only time, finally at that time.

There is no doubt that this verse indicates clearly about the death of isa ibn maryam. This is because of the question asked at the begining of the preceding verse (and when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of mary, didst thou say to men, 'take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?). If we accept as it is said that, it is an event which is going to occur on the day of resurrection, then,we should know that jesus is saying that he was a witness and a watcher over his people as long as he was among them. And that they never turned in to disbelievers(taken him for a god), except after he left them(he died).

Since you resolved the will say, I will explain the after he left to mean that Allah simply revealed what will happened and you and I know that Jesus is not with us, now, and some people, the christians are falsely claiming that they follow him. You must know that when Jesus was on earth, receiving and preaching the revelation from Allah to his people, those who were with him did not call him god, nor called his mother anything except prophet and believer, respectively. You know that Trinity and Christianity began after Allah had saved his soul and body from being perished on the cross. He was saved, but how do you rekorn that he got to India and while he was in India, did he preach Islam that Allah gave him? Did he have Awariyyun (helpers) in India? If you can explain how he got to far away India, you will not be able to say that he did not preach as a prophet of Allah when he got to India, since you said that he remained on earth till he was 120 years old. No prophet remained on earth idle doing nothing after his mission, revelation was over, and from your statement he would have remained on earth hiding from the very determined Jews for abour 90 years doing no preaching. Muhammad died very soon after the end of the reveation, almost after Surah Nasr was revealed! Now when did Jesus die in India? This is very difficult to explain, and if you said that he preached in India, I am sure the Jews would have tried to kill him still, just as the Quraishi pursued the Muslims even to far away Ethiopia and even Muhammad to Madina, yet the Arabs are not as Prophet killers as the children of Israel!

But if it is that he returned from heaven as it is said, he would have surely knew that his followers have gone astray and have taken him for god. It is a known fact that the christians take jesus for god (5:72, indeed they are disbelievers who say surely Allah is none but the messiah son of mary.) and they have not stoped taking him for god. Then it would be a lair(God forbids) on his path to deny that he doesnt know about it.

I hope you areaware that Allah is the knower of everything and Jesus knowledge is limited. Allah says that the limbs shall witness against them. Let me ask you shouldnt the owner of the limb be willing keep his limb from witnesing against him, even now that it is in the Quran as the event of miracles to happen on the day of Judgement? Can they control it? No. Inshort Jesus only knew what Allah allowed for him.

In hadith bukhari, it is narrated that the holy prophet, on the day of judgement, would want to intercede for some people who would be on the left side. Then he would be told that they deviated after you have left them. Then the holy prophet would then recite 5:116. Bukhari vol 6, kitabu tafsir, 5:116.) does this mean that the holy prophet was also raised?

This question of yours seem to indicate that the only quality that defines a prophet is just one. Please you should know that if youuse this type of reasoning to argue your viewpoint, you will be not be showing any depth at all. Did Muhammad get raised up? Yes. Did Muhammad come down after that? Yes. Did Muhammad died after that at the end of time for him? Yes.

Did Adam get created in heaven? Yes. Did Adam entered Paradise? Yes. Did Adam get out of Paradise and sent to the earth? Yes. Did Adam died after his time? Yes. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that Jesus was raised up, and will return to earth to die after his time, finally, for the first and the only time?

@Niyi53: « #72 on: Today at 06:36:00 AM »

Why dont you find out the verse which says jesus is in the second heaven, yahya also with him, and so on? There is no such verse in the quran! I have read the quran from the begining to the end and i have never come across such verse.

The verse of the quran you quoted about taking covenent from prophets NEVER mentioned that such a prophet would be on earth walking, (3:81).

As for whether the quoted hadith is authentic or not, thats a baseless idea. Do you think the hadith we are having is only confined to the six authentic hadith? Let me tell you, there is no book authentic as the quran. It is having first class authenticity. May be you have not heard of kanzul ummal, baihaqi, hakam, musnad ibn hambal, dar u qutni and so on. Even hadith abu daud, is considered to be having some weak hadith in it. Even bukhari is also considered by some scholars to be having some weak traditions in it.

My argument is based on Quranic verses and authentic ahadith, which must agree with Quran. I dont accept ahadith just because it is called ahadith, or somebody says Aisha (RA) said it, because all ahadith must come from Muhammad (AS).

I want the two of you to prove from the quran that jesus was really raised bodily to heaven while asleep.
I would like to know how jesus is eating up there as God says in sura ambiya,8, and we gave them not a body that eats not nor were they to live eternally.

Did the people of the Cave and their dogs (Surah Kahf) ate? Did the one (Ezra (as)) from the children of Israel who wondered if bodies will be raised up ate as both groups were made to sleep for a long time, the Cave people for 300 years, I think? I think you need to look at the totality of the paragraph (verses) in the Quran.

@Niyi53: « #45 on: December 01, 2009, 12:04 PM »

One more point is that Allah says in sura Nahl 20-21, and those on whom they call beside Allah created not anything, but they are themselves created. THEY ARE DEAD, NOT LIVING; AND THEY KNOW NOT WHEN THEY WILL BE RAISED.
Its a fact which the quran acknowledge, that jesus is among those been called upon beside Allah. Therefore according to this verse,all (no exception is made) is dead. JESUS IS THEREFORE DEAD.
And peace shall be on him who follows the guidiance. (20:47)

Its a good thing that you quoted the above! But you did not reflect upon it, for you would have realised that just in the late 1970s in Jonestown, Guyana South America, there was a man named Jim Jones, an American who made himself god and people worshipped him. He committed mass murder of his followers and even ordered the death of a US Congress man. Today Pastor Kim Young Moon of Moon Church worldwide is revered as a god by his followers. David Kuresh of Waco Texas was taking as god by his followers. The Heaven gates people took their leader as god too, and they died with him. Jeff, a Mormon Church roup leadership now in Prison in Nevada is revered as god by his followers. Most of these people called themselves god with their own lips, and those among them who didnt say that act like it and commands as if he is and his followers never question his authority but follows it!

I am sure you remember that Allah says in the Quran that they take their rabbis and their leaders as gods. And by the way these rabbis and leaders might not have said am god, so worship me, but when their actions indicate such authority, what else do you want? The prophet (AS) when asked by the former Jews and Christians who were Muslims about the verse that they take their Rabbis and leaders as gods, (AS) said to them when their rabbis and leaders forbids what Allah allows and or permits what Allah forbids, they are taking them as lord, god besides Allah, hence another sign of their disbelieving!

Finally, the late senator Ted Kennedy wrote a letter to Pope confessing and asking for forgiveness, and many Catholics go for confessions where they are forgiven by the priest. Now, Niyi53, who do you truly confess to and can forgive you? Your Lord. No? This is a sign that in the essence of it, as Allah was saying, He was saying that those whom the past disbelievers take as gods are dead, and it does not mean that the gods for all times, including those that the future disbeliever groups are all dead! Look Atheism is a group and 1000 years ago there was nothing like that. Today by the fact that they deny Allah or render Him not neessary is another form of changing Allah's word out of its place accepting the word of their leader(s). No?

@Niyi53: « #41 on: December 01, 2009, 10:37 AM »

2) 3:55, and when Allah said o jesus i would cause you to die (a natural death.) and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, untill the day of resurrection,

When the bolded was said to Isa bin Maryam, he was still alive. No?

TAWAFFA, if it is from babi-t-tafhil, and the MUTAWAFFA(subject) is Allah or one of the angels, and the MUTAWAFFI (object) is a person with soul, the meaning is nothing but death. A thing contrary to this cannot be found in the quran nor in the books of hadith nor in arabic language nor in any book of arabic poetry. This example from the dictionaries, quran, and hadith will be sufficient:
tawaffa-l-lahu fulaanan means he took his soul.(aqrabul mawarid)
TAWAFFA LAHU means he took the soul.(qamusu muhit, lisan ul arab)
from the quran:
And those of you who die and leave wives behind,(2:234) and in death number us among the righteous(3:193) let death come to me in a state of submission to thy will and join me to the righteous(12:101).
From the traditions:
hazrat Aisha says 'TAWAFFA N nabiyyu fi bayti. (the holy prophet died in my room). In the funeral prayer, the holy prophet recite, man tawaffaitahu minna, fatawaffahu alal iman.
Ibn Abbas says in his tafsir, MUTAWAFFI KA MUMIITUKA. MUTAWAFFI KA is I will cause you to die.

Cause you to die, does not mean you are dead at the time of speech but a statement about death to occur in the future!

Niyi why re u evading my question, i again ask: who is this jesus son of mary, give me his identity, Quran 4:159 says jesus is coming, how many jesus son of mary do we have in the Quran

@olabowale, you are just talking without evidence from the quran. Use the quran to support your self. Give evidence of TAWAFFA meaning otherwise from the quran.
In 3:55, God says i will cause you to die. Accepted that its going to be a future occurence, why is the action of 'raising' not a future happening when it is also used in a future tone like the word TAWAFFA? Are you trying to arrange the quran for God? He says that He has arranged everything accordingly, so why dont you accept it the way He said it?
If you accept that others that are called god beside Allah are living, then challenge God Himself.
I dont know may be jesus was not made God before the revelation of the quran.
Know that if rafaha means to take up bodily, then according to that, many people are up there whom we must be expecting their advent.
As for jesus's preaching in india, i would post it when i have a chance for it. You can also go to google and find out about the lost children of israel. You will know that they dispersed in to different places. As at the time jesus was crucified, it was only two tribes out of the twelve tribes that were there. The remaining ten must also hear his message.
Go to google and search for jesus in india, you will see that many historians also have testified to the fact that he died there.

@abuzola, check my previous post, i have already explained it there.
I would like both of you to explain ch 23:50 for me.

I will answer that sir olabowale

@Niyi: Why dont you find out the verse which says jesus is in the second heaven, yahya also with him, and so on? There is no such verse in the quran! I have read the quran from the begining to the end and i have never come across such verse.

Of course there is no verse in the Qur'an that says Isa is in the second heaven - and who said there is such a verse?

So what are you trying to say? That you don't believe it because you did not find it in the Qur'an?!

What of if it were in an authentic Hadith? Will you disbelieve it?

@Niyi: Even hadith abu daud, is considered to be having some weak hadith in it. Even bukhari is also considered by some scholars to be having some weak traditions in it.

And so? What's your point? Scholars have spent centuries identifying weak, false and authentic hadith. May Allah bless their efforts.

The Prophet said:

I leave for you two things, with which you will never go astray: The Qur'an and Hadith.


Niyi, do you have anything against the Hadith of the Rasul?

@Niyi: I would like to know how jesus is eating up there as God says in sura ambiya,8, and we gave them not a body that eats not nor were they to live eternally.

Well I don't know how Jesus is eating up there, or whether he is eating or not 


The question is: Is it possible for Allah to keep a human being alive without food? The answer is YES.


Proof: The People of the Cave (Surah Kahf) were kept alive in the cave by Allah for more than
300 years without food, drink or any form of nourishment.


Do you think that the people of the Cave and the Inscription were a wonder among Our Signs?

ahmadist are cultist,they dnt follow the hadiths,they keep praying to dead patrons,pure dead worshippers

uplawal:

ahmadist are cultist,they dnt follow the hadiths,they keep praying to dead patrons,pure dead worshippers

you better start seeking for forgiveness. Allah says in sura hajj 22:30; "shun therefore the abomination of idols and shun all words of untruth".

uplawal:

ahmadist are cultist,they dnt follow the hadiths,they keep praying to dead patrons,pure dead worshippers

you better start seeking for forgiveness. Allah says in sura hajj 22:30; "shun therefore the abomination of idols and shun all words of untruth".

uplawal:

ahmadist are cultist,they dnt follow the hadiths,they keep praying to dead patrons,pure dead worshippers

you better start seeking for forgiveness. Allah says in sura hajj 22:30; "shun therefore the abomination of idols and shun all words of untruth".

@niyi,u berra desist from ahmadiya sect,its what i saw and know,its you that needs to reform yourself

@niyi-
Quran 23:50 'and We made ibn maryam and his mother as a sign, and We gave them refuge on high ground, a place of rest , security and fowing streams'

the verse is clear

Niyi where in the Quran was it stated that there re two isa bin maryam ila bani isra'ila ? Waiting and waiting, i ve waited for so long

@Niyi53: « #71 on: December 03, 2009, 06:03 AM »

I think you are having sahih muslim? In it, the holy prophet said "kayfa antum iza nazala fiikum ibn maryam wa imamukum minkun[b]"(how will you be when the son of mary descend among you and he will be an imam from among you[/b]), in another statement of the same book he used "wa am makum minkum"(and he will be an imam from among you). This tradition is making us know that the jesus would be from among the muslim umma.

Niyi, am glad that the other brothers have the time to dialogue with you and try to analyse the lexiconology of the arabic grammar, connecting the dots. For me, I would have thought that you believe every letter, word, sentence, phrase and chapter of the Quran? I simply ask you that you tell us how Jesus got to india from Jerusalem, and what did he do there, since he was not receiving any more Wahi, being that Quran says that Jesus was sent only to bani Israil, but to confirm Torah and inform them of the Rasul whose name is Ahmad (AS), you are telling me to give you a meaning of a word, which may have many meaning, except that the specific meaning must fit the sentence structure and the total message of the speech, verse or verses! Muhammad (AS) left the earth, immediately after the end of revelation to him.

Why would Jesus be left on earth for almost 90 years, if you believe that he died at the age of 120 years? Was there more revelation or he was left to just rot, doing nothing as a prophet, no revelation? And the first bolded did not mean that he was already appeared or that the listeners of that speech from the prophrt would be alive when the second coming was in place, because if Isa had spent 120 years, he would have been dead many centuries before Muhammad, and his second coming if you said that the sahabahs were supposed to be alive, would have happened by now, and there would have been a mahdi, along with him and dajjal, an even to have occurred long time before Ghulam. No? As to the second bolded imamship does not mean that he will lead the muslim in prayers, that being the position of Mahdi (unless you think Ghulam will reappear too?), and Jesus is a leader of faith, clearly preaching Islam of Muhammad (AS)!

My friend, prophet Muhammad said in the farewell address that his message should be carried to people, and maybe the people of successive generations to come will have better understanding og what was said. We all can think, and those who have good knowledge, when they hear, read something they think about it, its truth and its possibilities. Why do we muslims disagree with the Christians concepts of 3 persons; godship? It is because Allah says that He is One and He gives us human capable understanding evidences to support it! Further when I first heard that Muslims can marry cousins, I was shocked, thinking that this was reserved for the Messenger (AS) alone, until I asked people of knowledge who simply told me that it covers all muslims.

I immediately accepted it, though I will never do it. I got thinking that the males and females who may opt to marry their cousins may have personalities different from people like me who have no interest in doing it. Further, didnt Adam marry a clone from from his ribs, and his children their own siblings, and the grandchildren their first cousins? If Allah allows it their is no harm in it and it must have its benefit, greater than the any possible harm, and there is no compulsion in religion. Please show from Quran that says that Jesus died on this earth. Or provide same from the ahadith, if you can! This is very important.

I have already presented to you the tradition in which the holy prophet stated that jesus spent 120 yrs, and in that tradition, the holy prophet said that he would spend half of the age jesus spent.

If Jesus have spent 33 years with his people, and you also believe that he will come back, for him to spend 2 times, approximately of what the prophet spent, then that prophet statement from the Messenger (AS) about Isa bin Maryam (AS) referes to some 90 years he will still spend when he comes back to earth, except if you dont believe that he will come back, hence you disbelieve the Quran, and contradict yourself, probably the reason you are give us the idea that a different Jesus will come and not what Maryam gave birth to?

If therefore jesus is still alive, then the holy prophet is to still be alive.

Do you doubt that Muhammad (AS) is alive in his grave? Supporting evidences; Allah says the Slain warriors (shahid)are not dead. Muhammad said that in Isra wa Miraj, he saw Musa praying in his own grave "outside Jerusalem". Muhammad said of himself that when salaam is given to him, the angel will bring it to him, connecting his soul to his body so that he can hear it and respond to it.Let me ask you, Niyi, is there a time on earth that some salaama is not given to Muhammad (AS), and what does ahadith say to you, except that Muhammad is alive?

Do you believe that Muhammad led the prophets in Salah alal Ibrahima (as) in his isra wa miraj? Did Muhammad speak with Adam, Isa, Musa, Ibrahim (AS), just to list a few? Did Muhammad discuss with Musa (AS) about the numbers of salah per day? What were these prophets, then dead or alive? Finally, in the least evidence, when after Abbass (I think) RA, had passed, and was buried for a time, his grave was dug so that he could be moved to another place. In the process, of moving his foot was scratched, laxarated. Blood began to flow out of this opening as if he was still alive, or just frshly died Are these not proofs enough, for you? Finally, how would a person who has to do something in the future be able to do it, except that he will comeback, still made readied, though dormant until the time?

My brother, please improve you aqeedah. May Allah purify us all. Amin.

@Niyi53: « #78 on: December 03, 2009, 10:16 AM »

@olabowale, you are just talking without evidence from the quran. Use the quran to support your self. Give evidence of TAWAFFA meaning otherwise from the quran.
In 3:55, God says i will cause you to die. Accepted that its going to be a future occurence, why is the action of 'raising' not a future happening when it is also used in a future tone like the word TAWAFFA? Are you trying to arrange the quran for God? He says that He has arranged everything accordingly, so why dont you accept it the way He said it?

I accept the Quran the way it is, the reason that the future action is still in the future, the death and the risng up of Jesus. Or have we reached the end of the future? Are his return, the occurrence of Mahdi and dajjal along with his second presence on earth already past or are they not in the future? Will he not die after he kills dajjal, and then be raised up? Yes or no, please!

If you accept that others that are called god beside Allah are living, then challenge God Himself.
I dont know may be jesus was not made God before the revelation of the quran.

I do not need to challenge Allah. I read what he says and I make a valid agreement with it, since I know some people act as gods on earth, today with a significant followings. Didnt Muhammad (AS) pointed out to the new muslims in Madina who were Jews and Christians that when they accept the orders of their leaders and scholars, it means worship, taking as gods. Do you know better than Muhammad (AS)? Today, again, the catholic, am sure you do know this, go for confessions. The listeners will say to them "you are forgiven, my child " (~Lady, where are you?). A person who forgives a person whoconfesses to him, though the sin was not against him, is that not playing God?

Know that if rafaha means to take up bodily, then according to that, many people are up there whom we must be expecting their advent.

Taking up may mean many form of up lifting, from a lower plane. Idris is raised up in rank. Jesus is raised up, but how in your case, except secured away from his enemies who wish to do him arm, if they have the power to do it?

As for jesus's preaching in india, i would post it when i have a chance for it. You can also go to google and find out about the lost children of israel. You will know that they dispersed in to different places. As at the time jesus was crucified, it was only two tribes out of the twelve tribes that were there. The remaining ten must also hear his message.
Go to google and search for jesus in india, you will see that many historians also have testified to the fact that he died there.

Ridiculous! How many times were dispersions among the Children of Israil before Jesus was said to have been crucified? Then I asked you, how did Jesus get to India from Jerusalem but did not answer? I further asked you, if after his revelation stopped in the core population of Bani Israil, which means that he disappeared from them, I say he was lifted by his Lord to heaven, you say he arrived somehow in India, did he teach just what had received to the bani israil of India, his new people, without anymore revelations, or there were more revelations which the Philistine located bani Israil missed out on? Either position you take, you will have problems explaining it. Just to driving in my position a little clearer:

a). If your idea is that he just taught the Indian faction what he had taught the Philistine family members, you will destroying the rule of his Messengership prophetic office as to be a wholesale at one time messenger and prophet to those whom he was sent. Further, he would have started his role wrong from the first time because he would have excluded the Indian group, which would have been wrong! A messenger who received Wahi, will not be made to a teacher without anymore revelations. When revelation stops, its time to go. Musa and Muhammad (AS) are excellent examples here.

b). If your idea is that he received more revelations, in India, then his messengership was cut short with the Philistine larger body and that is not the intention of Allah since before Jesus, Musa's messengership was with the whole larger group of bani Israil. And Muhammad after jesus was with the whole Arabs, Makka first with flows of Arabs into it from other tribes, and when in Madina, his messengership still included all the arabs and of course in Makka and in Madina, since he is the messenger prophet to all the world, you see his letters inviting every civilization and at farewell address telling his companions (RA) to carry it to the people who didnt hear it, hence they left doing just that.

We know that Muhammad died less than a year after the speech. There was no emissary going from India body to Philistine body to carry the message of Jesus between these group. Is it because Jesus was afraid for his life? If he were, then the Indian jesus was not a believer, completely different from what Allah says of the Jesus of Philistine. If the Indians let the Philistine brothers know, they would have travelled there to still make attempt on his life, knowing fully well that he did not die in the first attempt, which will go against the verse of the Quran that it was made to seem so, while what follows of those who believe that he died was mere conjecture without any proof! Again who knows better, you or Allah?

You all are just making issues getting complicted for yourselves. This issue is quite clear and obvious. Jesus is dead and he is never going to come back to this world. Its is anothe person who is going to come in his name and power. If you like accept it or reject it.
The quran did not say that jesus was raised to heaven, it says nay Allah raised him to Himself. I dont know if you are now restricting Him to a particular place. He said He is the one who created the heavens and the earth, the question is where was He before the creation.
You say that the holy prophet say him in the second heaven, he must have been dead before entring into it.
Some claim that in sura maryam, where he was saying peace be on me the day i was born the day i will die and the day i will be raised up again, means that he is not dead. May be hazrat Yahya who also said the same is not dead, (it might be a reason for seeing them together in the same place by the holy prophet.)
for arguments sake let us accept all such claims of religious leaders having ascended to heaven and take them at their face value. If the case of jesus christ's reported ascent is ti be treated in a superficial sense and his second coming to be interpreted as literal and real then there is no reason why we should refuse to accept other similar cases in the world. Why make an exception of Elijah; king of salem; the twelfth imam of the shiite faction in islam;the ascension of Hindu gods; or other similar holy men and the so-called personification of God? It is safer, therefore, to avoid entering into such unproductive, futile debates with those who entertain such beliefs. One may enquire, from all such credulous believers in fantasy if they can point out a single revisit, in person, of those who are reported to have disappeared by ascending into remove heavenly recesses. Can all of human history present a single example of the bodily return of any person to this world who is reported to have bodily ascended? Show me if there is one.

You all are just making issues getting complicted for yourselves. This issue is quite clear and obvious. Jesus is dead and he is never going to come back to this world. Its is anothe person who is going to come in his name and power. If you like accept it or reject it.
The quran did not say that jesus was raised to heaven, it says nay Allah raised him to Himself. I dont know if you are now restricting Him to a particular place. He said He is the one who created the heavens and the earth, the question is where was He before the creation.
You say that the holy prophet say him in the second heaven, he must have been dead before entring into it.
Some claim that in sura maryam, where he was saying peace be on me the day i was born the day i will die and the day i will be raised up again, means that he is not dead. May be hazrat Yahya who also said the same is not dead, (it might be a reason for seeing them together in the same place by the holy prophet.)
for arguments sake let us accept all such claims of religious leaders having ascended to heaven and take them at their face value. If the case of jesus christ's reported ascent is ti be treated in a superficial sense and his second coming to be interpreted as literal and real then there is no reason why we should refuse to accept other similar cases in the world. Why make an exception of Elijah; king of salem; the twelfth imam of the shiite faction in islam;the ascension of Hindu gods; or other similar holy men and the so-called personification of God? It is safer, therefore, to avoid entering into such unproductive, futile debates with those who entertain such beliefs. One may enquire, from all such credulous believers in fantasy if they can point out a single revisit, in person, of those who are reported to have disappeared by ascending into remove heavenly recesses. Can all of human history present a single example of the bodily return of any person to this world who is reported to have bodily ascended? Show me if there is one.

@niyi53:

You all are just making issues getting complicted for yourselves. This issue is quite clear and obvious. Jesus is dead and he is never going to come back to this world. Its is anothe person who is going to come in his name and power. If you like accept it or reject it.

I wonder why and how another person is coming in his name, when the original could easily be sent? show us the proof of how you arrive that this opinion? Did Jesus have any power of his own? Is there anyone who has any power except what Allah gives to accomplish His Purpose?

The new Jesus is what I want to know about sine there are no 2 Jibril, or Mikail, etc of the angels or Shaitan who used to be Iblis from the Jinn, or Adam, Idris, Nuh, Ibrahim, Lut, Ismail (the first to be slaughtered of the two fathers of Muhammad (AS), Isiaq, Yaqub (named Israil), Yusuf whom Allah permits his father israil and the whole family allowed Sadjah (not worshipping him, but making true of his prophetic dream), etc, and the beloved of Allah; Muhammad (AS)!

Why 2 Jesus(es)? Are things not made clear by Allah in His Book? Did Muhammad (AS) not say Isa bin Maryam will come back to fight Dajjal? Do you know about what Allah has ordained than Allah and His Messenger (AS)? Allah says that those who believe hear the Quran and get the best meaning thereof from it. How do you know the best meaning? It agrees with the Quran and it is what the prophet says about it! Allah says "and his coming will be a sign of the hour", and Allah says "believers only say we hear and we believe to what Allah and His Messenger say" and "whatever Muhammad gives take and what he forbids, avoid". Where are you making mistakes?

@Niyi
@olabowale
@Abuzola

please i beg u guys in the Name of God, read all of it, or simply copy it to your system so u can refer to it when less busy. thanks.

Brother Niyi, i must commend u for your astute, intelligent observations and understanding of the verses of the glorious quran.  i keep trying to make the muslims know that most of those who translated the quran were under the influence of their corrupted traditions. Any intelligent person will observe that there is no indication what so ever that jesus will be returning to this life again in the lights of the quran. does God violate his laws? no, no man will die and then come back from the dead again, it is against God's laws. infact lets use common sense here, how would we know jesus when he comes"back". who would believe him to be jesus. What miracle would he provide in this age of technological advancement where no reasonable mind accepts such things as miracles anymore. ppl perform what they call miracles day in day out, how different will that of the "comming jesus" be like. lets just think for a while ppl. God never violates his Rules. see below,

[48:23]  Such is GOD's system throughout history, and you will find that GOD's system is unchangeable.

this is what happens when u try to xpain the quran using outside sources. God prohibits such, He told us d quran is detailed(6:144-116).
the idea of him comming for the second time is unfounded.

The verse u quoted(sura 3:55), the word "mutawwafika" means to terminate or put to death, but because of the influence of hadith and other sources, the translators of quran are forced to change it.

now i'll prove to others that jesus is infact dead according to the quran. i'll start from quoting the verse u mentioned.


[3:55]  Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.


it is interesting to note that exactly 57 verses ahead in that sura(i.e 112) God gave a hint to something  concerning this:

[3:112]  They shall be humiliated whenever you encounter them, unless they uphold GOD's covenant, as well as their peace covenants with you. They have incurred wrath from GOD, and, consequently, they are committed to disgrace. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and [b]killed the prophets u[/b]njustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

the next clue given by God is also mentioned exacly 57 verses ahead of (112  i.e 169):

     The Righteous Do Not Really Die

[3:169]  Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.

according to the above verse All  The Righteous Do Not Really Die. the question now is, is jesus amongst the  Righteous? if so, then the verse also applies to him. little wonder made similar statement in sura 2. now that xplains what God meant when He said in sura 4:157, that jesus was never killed.

     Crucifying "the Body" of Jesus

[4:157]  And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

Consistently in the Quran, God refers to the soul as the real person. As far as God is concerned the body is just a host for the real you"the real person. the body only serves us in this world, but after our death the soul lives on. for the reighteous as soon as they die God raises them to Himself. for the unreighteous, they wait untill the day of judgmnet. infact the jews did infact kill jesus, but jesus the "body", but prior to that God has already raised his soul to Himself, i.e the real persson, jesus the "soul".

No wonder when u read (4:157), God said i"it was made to appear so". meaning , the jews did crucify him, atleast that is what they thought.

Further read sura mariam"mary" i.e sura 19. in that sura , jesus actually mentions that he will die, and be resurrected(the day of judgment). see below,

[19:27]  She came to her family, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have committed something that is totally unexpected.
[19:28]  "O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."
[19:29]  She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
[19:30]  (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
[19:31]  "He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat) for as long as I live.
[19:32]  "I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
[19:33]  And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected."


As u can see in the last verse above(19:33), jesus clearly talks about the day he will die. remember he was prophetic from birth. God neveer violates His laws, no man will die and then come back to life again in this life.

Please read the below verses about death accordign to the Quran. pls pls pls .



                             Death

Death is a great mystery to most people. Not so for the students of the Quran. We learn that death is exactly like sleeping; complete with dreams (6:60, 40:46). The period between death and resurrection passes like one night of sleep (2:259; 6:60; 10:45; 16:21; 18:11, 19, 25; 30:55).

At the moment of death, everyone knows his or her destiny; Heaven or Hell. For the disbelievers, death is a horrible event; the angels beat
them on the faces and rear ends as they snatch away their souls (8:50, 47:27, 79:1).

             
Give good news to those who believe and work righteousness that they will have gardens with flowing streams. When provided with provisions
of fruits therein, they will say, "This is what was given to us in the past." They will be given similar provisions, and they will have pure
spouses therein. They abide therein forever. (2:25)

Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of God are dead; they are alive at their Lord, being provided for. (3:169)

Do NOT say about those who are killed in the cause of God, "They are dead." For they are alive, but you do not perceive. (2:154)

O you who believe, you shall respond to God and the messenger when he invites to what keeps you alive. (8:24)

Those who emigrate in the cause of God, then get killed or die, God will surely provide for them a good provision. (22:58)

They do not taste death, beyond the first death, and God spares them the retribution of Hell. (44:56)

He was told, "Enter Paradise." He said, "I wish my people (on earth) know; that my Lord has forgiven me and honored me." (36:26-27)
     
THE RIGHTEOUS DO NOT DIE; when their lives on this earth come to the predetermined end, the angel of death simply invites them to leave their earthly bodies and move on to Heaven, the same Paradise where Adam and Eve once lived. Heaven has been in existence since Adam and Eve. We learn from 89:27-30 that God invites the believers' souls: "Enter My Paradise.

                         THE DISBELIEVERS

As for the disbelievers, they know at the moment of death that they are destined for Hell. The angels beat them up on the faces and rear
ends (8:50 & 47:27), order them to evict their souls (6:93), then "snatch their souls" (79:1). The Quran teaches that the disbelievers
go through 2 deaths (2:28 & 40:11). They will be put to death - a state of nothingness during which they see Hell day and night in a
continuous nightmare that lasts until the Day of Judgment (40:46). Hell is not yet in existence (40:46, 89:23).

                   Of Course, the Righteous Depart

As far as people are concerned, the righteous "die." People do not realize that the righteous simply leave their bodies, and move on to Paradise. The verses shown above are self explanatory. They tell us that the righteous die only once - the one death we have already experienced as a consequence of the great fued (38:69). In 36:26-27, we see the best evidence that the righteous go to Paradise, while their friends and relatives are still living on earth. Like going to Hawaii and waiting for us there.  See also 16:32 & 6:60-62.

Many muslims are actually good natured people. Could it be your Qur'an that makes you guys nice? Listen to what this Jewish rabbi has to say as to why a lot of you are nice and why others are not.

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgbWMEedJM&hl=en_GB&fs=1&[/flash]

Jesus, (Yeshua and not Isa) was clear enough when He predicted His own death and resurrection.

[17] And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, [18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, [19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again. -- Matthew 20:17-19

Paul received this apostle creed:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-8

This is what your 'holy book' says in Surah 19:33 that corroborates what I quoted above.

"Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"