RockHard:


Guy, you are actually buttressing my own point with this your Catholism analogy coz obviously the Catholic appeal must've been too irresistible and desirable enough for you to consciously choose to identity with it over more traditional igbo religion, in the same way the igbo slaves must've felt when they decided to allow their culture to die in the diaspora. . I never really argued against your point about the admixture and varied ethnic composition of the slaves that were taken to Brazil during the slave trade. My emphasis was on the enduring character of Yoruba culture relative to those of slaves that even outnumbered them.

RockHard:


Guy, you are actually buttressing my own point with this your Catholism analogy coz obviously the Catholic appeal must've been too irresistible and desirable enough for you to consciously choose to identity with it over more traditional igbo religion, in the same way the igbo slaves must've felt when they decided to allow their culture to die in the diaspora. . I never really argued against your point about the admixture and varied ethnic composition of the slaves that were taken to Brazil during the slave trade. My emphasis was on the enduring character of Yoruba culture relative to those of slaves that even outnumbered them.

YourNemesis:


You are mixing up two things.
I am telling you that Yoruba DNA is the benchmark for Middle Guinea saves in the new world, Mandenkas for the Western Guinea, and of course Bantu and SAN have their own components.
The component of DNA African shares were not done under any wrong assumptions, they knew what exactly they were doing. Mandenka and Wolof DNA are not that different Hence The proportions you see there representing slaves from that axis. Same with Yoruba, Igbo Etc from the middle guinea coast.

Check any DNA documents of Africans - Yoruba always old the pole.anchor position.

“Abstract: Rice production was a key industry of many colonial South Carolina low country plantations. Accordingly, rice plantations owners within South Carolina often requested enslaved Africans from the so-called ‘‘Grain Coast’’ of western Africa (Senegal to Sierra Leone). Studies on the African origins of the enslaved within other regions of the Americas have been limited. To address the issue of origins of people of African descent within the Americas and understand more about the genetic heterogeneity present within Africa and the African Diaspora, we typed Y chromosome specific markers in 1,319 men consisting of 508 west and central Africans (from 12 populations), 188 Caribbeans (from 2 islands), 532 African Americans (AAs from Washington, DC and Columbia, SC), and 91 European Americans. Principal component and admixture analyses provide support for significant Grain Coast ancestry among African American men in South Carolina. AA men from DC and the Caribbean showed a closer affinity to populations from the Bight of Biafra.“

bigfrancis21:


Listen up, the Congolese, Angolans, Akan may have even been more in numbers than Igbo slaves and all these groups with major numbers had very little bits of culture that survived. It is not an Igbo thing, it is a matter of when you arrived or the period in time when the tribes arrived.

Compare the figures exported from Bight of Biafra and Bight of Benin. Exports from Biafra was consistent from the beginning of slavery (1400), and dropping towards the end, while exports from Benin (Lagos and Badagri ports) did not pick up until half-way into the slave trade era (1751) and rose towards the end (when Lagos sent its most slaves). So once again, it was as a result of the time when Yoruba slaves arrived the new world. Figures show that Yoruba slaves were the last to arrive the new world, and for them their origins were still fresh in mind and they taught other slaves about mama africa and their roots!

Remember, not all Ifa practitioners in the diaspora are of Yoruba ancestry!

bigfrancis21:
Of course we do. It's always been part of our culture. Before the advent of Christianity, Igbo families often held naming ceremonies for their newly born or after circumcision conducted 8 days or two native market weeks after birth if male. Anybody who says otherwise does not know Igbo culture.

Donzman:
@Laudate
The link you posted has vindicated me, it has also called on you, TerraCotta and the rest to admit you were wrong. There was no naming ceremony mentioned in that article, the article clearly described the process most Igbos go in naming their kids. They name them after the experiences pre-during-post pregnancy, there is no OFFICIAL ceremony where people gather just to name a kid.

Now Thiefofhearts, Laudate and TerraCotta, where is the apology to Donzman, Babyosisi and the other people who have been banging it into your heads that we do not have naming ceremonies?

P.S.: After reading that article, we still have people who think Ikwerres who name their communities in the same exact pattern, Umu-this, Umu-that are not Igbos, people need to be more honest with themselves! https://www.nairaland.com/59913/what-significance-yoruba-tribal-marks/6

RockHard:


Dude, i'm not one to engage you in a fruitless back and forth banter over a non-issue. I already spelled out my premise and didn't even argue or disagree with you concerning the numerical strength of igbos slaves relative to others. No. I am merely stating the obvious fact that the Yoruba culture has, more than any other I can think of, managed to stay alive, endure and even convert more adherents that would rather identify with it than any other amongst the descendants of slaves in the diaspora. There's a higher probabilty that more of the descendants of those slaves would be quicker to identify with Yoruba culture than igbo today, #Fact.

And your comment that "not all Ifa practitioners in the diaspora are of Yoruba ancestry" only goes further to buttress this point. Look i can't shout, abeg.

YourNemesis:


Just telling you Yorubas most likely outnumbered Igbos on the new world, from all indications. Even if not by much.

All in all, it all depends on the country. Countries like Jamaica and the US had more Igbo slaves.

bigfrancis21:


@bold... I've always agreed. Never disputed that. My point made is that not all these adherents are necessarily of Yoruba descent. You and I, as we know, are highly westernized and practice Western culture, food, dressing, religion (Christianity etc.) but we are NOT Europeans neither are we Westerners. That is just my point.

pazienza:
No. I am merely stating the obvious fact that the Yoruba culture has, more than any other I can think of, managed to stay alive, endure and even convert more adherents that would rather identify with it than any other amongst the descendants of slaves in the diaspora. There's a higher probabilty that more of the descendants of those slaves would be quicker to identify with Yoruba culture than igbo today, #Fact.




"The survival of Yoruba traditional elements is attributed to 2 major reasons: the late emergence of Yoruba slaves in the slave trade and favorable slave conditions and weakened slave laws in Latin American slave colonies in the mid/late 19th century". #Fact

^^^I don't think it has anything to do with that... The last slaves to land on the shores of USA were part of the Igbo landing in Virginia, however that never changed anything there...

I personally think it has more to do with the level of spirituality and consciousness in Yoruba culture and how rich the language... Even places like: Haiti, Jamaica etc. that had few Yoruba slaves, the few slaves still left an impact on those country... I've met Jamaicans with Yoruba first names in the UK, especially those from the New Cross area where Yoruba slaves settled..

This isn't to say that one culture is more superior to the other - Yoruba culture is just deeper in the lives of most people of Yoruba descent - it's like an in-born thing... Heck, modern day Yorubas even Yorubanised Christianity into the white garment churches which were the first African churches we had in diaspora before the pentecostal churches came in the late 90s and early 20s... Most of us were born in white garment churches out here...

Lushore1:
If order of arrival would explain the lasting cultural footprint then Fulani should be the culture surviving and not Yoruba.

Lushore1:


Let assume you are right that yoruba slaves were late in the game. Can you tell me why is this? Since yorubas have early contact with white men than igbo....

Lushore1:
If order of arrival would explain the lasting cultural footprint then Fulani should be the culture surviving and not Yoruba.

YourNemesis:


lol.... You dey mind them?
They are just repeating the same things said by some New World researchers, nothing that was being thought about by themselves.

They should tell us how the Fons managed to preserve Vodun in Louisiana despite their very old presence there.
Or how the Yoruba and Fon slaves of Haiti managed to Preserve their culture, while that of the Igbos on the same Island died out.

We are all waiting patiently.

pazienza:


Why should t it be Fulani, rather than Yorubas.
Can you use a credible data to show us the number Of Fulanis exported to the New world, as compared to Yorubas?

Lushore1:


So you don't know fulanis are one of the last group of slaves in the new world?...please use Google it's free.

pazienza:


It's not just about the period of arrival, but also the numbers.

Yorubas had the numbers, Fulanis didn't,how hard is this to understand?

bigfrancis21:
YORUBA SLAVE NUMBERS EXPORTED FROM BIGHT OF BENIN FROM 1650 TO 1865

The image below is a table of all slave ports in the Bight of Benin and the number of slaves exported from these ports during the entire slave trade period from 1650 to 1865.

Of all these ports, Lagos/Onim port was the number 1 source of Yoruba slaves. A quick look shows that from 1651 to 1750, Lagos exported 0 number of slaves for nearly 100 years. We begin to see the exports from Lagos (mostly Yoruba slaves) start from 1751, attaining its all time high between 1826 and 1850 (during the time of the Oyo empire wars) and dropping thereafter. The table indicates that between 1751, when Lagos slave exports began, and 1865, (end of slavery), 317,300 slaves (let us assume all were Yorubas for simplicity) were exported from Lagos port. That is, 317,300 Yoruba slaves were exported from the port of Lagos during the entire slave trade period of 215 years for Bight of Benin.

Now, there are high chances that some Yoruba slaves were also exported through nearby ports of Badagri and Epe. The slaves from these ports would have included Fon slaves, Ga slaves, Akan slaves, Ewe slaves, Yoruba slaves etc. Assuming all the slaves exported from these 2 ports were all Yoruba slaves, the figures are 53,700 and 85,500 for Epe and Badagry respectively, for a combined total of 139,200.

Assuming all the slaves exported from Lagos, Epe and Badagry were of Yoruba descent, the overall number of all 'Yoruba' slaves exported from these 3 ports in the Bight of Benin is 456,500, or less than half a million. However, realistically speaking, given the fact that many non-Yorubas were often labelled 'lukumi' by the Spanish/Portuguese (see second image below) and not all slaves from these 3 ports were actually Yorubas, especially from the ports of Epe and Badagry, the actual number of Yoruba slaves taken from these 3 ports would be a figure between 300,000 and 400,000.

To add also, that not all 300,000 to 456,500 Yoruba slaves who left the shores of West Africa did make it to the new world. A small percentage who were intercepted by the British and settled in Sierra Leone did not make it to Latin America, out of which some of those intercepted by the British who never left the African continent and settled in Sierra Leone (Saros) actually returned back to Lagos. Out of the majority who made it to Latin America, a small percentage (Agudas) returned to Lagos where they settled. Taking into consideration the numbers of Saros and Agudas, the final number of Yoruba slaves settling in Latin America (mainly Brazil) is a figure between 300,000 to 400,000.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Uk1Tbdsq99gC&pg=PA179&dq=yoruba+slave+population+numbers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkzI34o8zRAhWH34MKHZDPDaEQ6AEIJTAC#v=onepage&q=yoruba%20slave%20population%20numbers&f=false

bigfrancis21:
@bold... I've always agreed. Never disputed that. My point made is that not all these adherents are necessarily of Yoruba descent. You and I, as we know, are highly westernized and practice Western culture, food, dressing, religion (Christianity etc.) but we are NOT Europeans neither are we Westerners. That is just my point.

pazienza:


It's not just about the period of arrival, but also the numbers.

Yorubas had the numbers, Fulanis didn't,how hard is this to understand?

bigfrancis21:


That's no issue at all. Bight of Biafra could have extended all the way down to South Africa. The figures being looked at is the actual number of Nigerians (Yoruba and Igbo) exported from these bights, regardless of how far away the bights may have extended. 1.2m from the Igbo country compared to 456,500 from the SW regions. You can dispute the territory of the bights but can't dispute the numbers.

Lushore1:




You can't have it both ways, especially if we have to believe your brother arguement. Igbo with 1.2 million slaves simply have minimal impact in the new world in comparison to the half a million yoruba slaves.

laudate:


Are all the adherents of the Carabali Isuama and participants of the Carabali Olugo, necessarily of Igbo descent? Just asking.

Lushore1:


I thought your brother was just telling us in another thread that only 300-400 thousand yoruba slaves left the sores of Africa.