bigfrancis21:


Possibly way more than the Yoruba population of 3m in the 1800s, probably between 4m to 5m. Remember also that for the Bight of Biafra slave numbers, the Igbo exports are more spread out or distributed over year periods from as early as 1470 to 1860. Thus, the 1.27m figure estimate for Igbo slaves spans over nearly 400 years from 1470 to 1860 (390 years), whereas the Yoruba figure estimate of 437,700 spans from 1650 to 1860 (217 years, the major peak period being between 1820 and 1860). In other words, the longer the presence in slavery, the more the numbers exported.

Speaking of which, a population census of southern Nigeria performed in the early 1900s indicated that the Igbo population was highest followed by the Yoruba, which again confirms early population figures for the 1800s and the percentages of exports taken from them.

YourNemesis:


Well, Manning's estimates simply do not correlate with that of the other research I quoted earlier.
Whose own research Yielded an Upper estimate of 1.67 Million, A middle estimate of 968.2 Million, and a lower end estimate of 647,000 Thousand Yorubas sold into Atlantic slavery.

YourNemesis:
Some researchers have attributed the low "survivals" of Igbo culture in the Americas, especially in relation to their numbers, to the relative Weakness of Igbo traditions.
I wonder how true this is.

YourNemesis:
Here are his middle value estimates:




So, either Manning is wrong, or Eltis is. I chose to go with the latter.
The true value lies somewhere between his upper and middle estimate.

Btw, where did Manning get an estimation of Yoruba population in the 1640's from??

There is no record anywhere of any West African population at that time... Chooi!

YourNemesis:


Well, Manning's estimates simply do not correlate with that of the other research I quoted earlier.
Whose own research Yielded an Upper estimate of 1.67 Million, A middle estimate of 968.2 Million, and a lower end estimate of 647,000 Thousand Yorubas sold into Atlantic slavery.

bigfrancis21:


We all know Eltis, basked in the euphoria of the Yoruba religion, is too excited with his figures. No serious academician would take his figures seriously. First he claims Yorubas were the majority of slaves exported from the bight of benin, which we know is false. Because the Yoruba did not dominate the Bight of Benin slave trade until 1820 to 1860 or the last 40 years of the slavery era from 1470 to 1860, as we saw in the previous statistics. Between 1640 and 1810 the Aja peoples dominated the bight of benin slave trade, reaching as high as 97% and the Yoruba were at one time merely 2% of the total exports. In other words, 40 years is such a small period of time to export 968,000 Yoruba slaves. Even at 968,2000, 1.27m is still a greater number.

Abeg, just stick to the popularity if the Ifa religion in the new world and/or its promotion thereof. In terms of numbers, Yoruba no reach anywhere.

bigfrancis21:

Speaking of which, which even begs the question, why did lukumi language not survive in Sierra Leone? I mean these lukumi people never left Africa to begin with, neither did they undergo the horrific cultural stripping process others in the new world went through. These lukumi speakers were intercepted by the British in slave ships destined for the new world and they were dropped off in Freetown SL, with slaves from other tribes too. Given that they were in an African country, very similar to their place of origin, why did lukumi fail to survive as a living language in Sierra Leone? Also given the preponderance of Yoruba speakers among SL Krio people, why are there barely any lukumi words used in SL creole today?

Words of English origin account for about 70% of the vocabulary of Krio, though a large number of words are borrowed from West African languages, particularly Yoruba, which is second only to English as the largest contributor to Krio vocabulary. While the pronunciations of English borrowings have in most cases been modified, words borrowed from African languages have generally retained the pronunciations they had in the language of origin. Some examples are given below (with the tone of each syllable shown, as described above in 'Sounds'):

Certainly, when one considers the Krio lexicon today and in records of the past, one finds borrowings and input from an extremely wide range of sources, with English and Yoruba being most present, then some Hausa, Wolof, Portuguese, Jamaican Creole, Arabic, Fanti, French, Fula, Mende, Temne, and other African languages. With such a tremendously mixed lexical background and the situation present in Freetown at the turn of the nineteenth century, it seems most likely that Krio did evolve in Freetown among its mixed population, first as a simple pidgin, and then as a more complete Creole as it came to be used by the settlers’ children as their mother tongue, eventually metamorphosing into the Krio language that is known today

YourNemesis:


And who told you that there are barely any Yoruba words in Sierra Leonian creole?
Yoruba has been identified as the single most important language that influenced the syntax, pronunciation and words infused into SL creole as spoken today.



Yoruba words in Krio are countless.
Kabo (Welcome), Kushe (Welldone/Hi), Okuru (Rabies), Omolanke (Wheelbarrow), Wareware (Alacrity), Alakori (Idiot), Koko (notch), Gbangba Ode (Out in the open), Event Uniform (Ashobi) and numerous others are all Yoruba words in Krio.
I guess you didn't really research this particular topic before posting this ^^

read further.

Also, You are very wrong to have assumed there are no Yoruba language speakers left in SL. There are still very viable Yoruba speaking communities in Sierra Leone till today, who are virtually Yoruba in all their mannerisms. infact, even among the creolized population in Sierra Leone, a large percent still carry Yoruba names, majority as first names, but some as last names too. Abioseh, Bankole, Balogun, Oloh, Ade, Abayomi-Cole, Ogunlade Etc are just a few.

I already told you, Yoruba Populations don't gather in any significant concentration in a place without leaving a lasting impact.

1. The first president of Sierra Leone was an Igbo by the name of Christopher Okoro Cole. Before then, Okoro served as the Governor-General of Sierra Leone. His ascendancy into the presidential seat took place on April of 1971.

2. In April of 1992, an Igbo by the name of Captain Yahya Kanu became Military Head of State of Sierra Leone.

3. In 1857, an ex-slave of Igbo extraction, Simon Jonas, wrote the first manuscript written in Igbo language, ‘Isoama-Ibo Primer’. This was done in Sierra Leone for emancipated slaves from Igboland in Freetown, Sierra Leone. The Igbo dialect spoken in Sierra Leone is called Isoama/Isuama-Igbo. Ex-Lagos slave, Samuel Crowther, published it as a book. Both Jonas and Crowther stayed together in Lagos before being shipped to Sierra Leone.

YourNemesis:


The reason why I, and any other critical researcher won't agree with your assertions are simple.
While it is true that Gbe ports in "Aja" lands like Ardra (Allada), Jakin and Offira, as well as the largest by far (Ouidah) were the largest slave deportation ports between 1650 and mid 18th Century, controlling in fact almost virtually all for a while - There were at least a 10% Yoruba slave population Among the figures from these ports in all that time.
However, in the Mid 18th century, 1750 And Onwards, Oyo was said to have provided the Bulk of the slaves embarking from Ouidah.





And that is why figures from Eltis's research is superior to Manning's, which Eltis was very much aware about, as he even quoted the later. A majority of slaves from The Ouidah port being Yoruba as well as those from Offra/Jakin which lay even further East that Ouidah and just south of Lake Nokue. Along with the other Eastern ports of Porto Novo, Epe, Badagry, Lagos), and A minority of those departing from the western port of Popo post mid 18th Century together gives a figure of over 960,000, not even considering the number of Yorubas in the figures between 1650 and 1750.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/4778130_snip5_png75e2e2916230dbf86db0a3d8c63dfc1d

All the slaves from Xweda otherwise known as Whydah (Ouidah) plus all the others to the East had a majority Yoruba slave component from 1750 Onwards till the eventual abolition of the slave trade. While becoming a significant minority (at least 18%) of those from popo.
Do the maths yourself

If common sense would prevail here, one would see that the true figures lies somewhere between Eltis's middle and Upper estimate.

Even his lower (And unlikely) figure of 660,000+ is still more believable than manning's 400k.

The Sierra Leone Creole people (or Krio people) are an ethnic group in Sierra Leone. They are the descendants of freed African American, West Indian and Liberated African slaves who settled in the Western Area of Sierra Leone between 1787 and about 1885. The colony was established by the British, supported by abolitionists, under the Sierra Leone Company as a place for freedmen. The settlers called their new settlement Freetown. Today, the Krio comprise about 4% of the population of Sierra Leone.

Like their Americo-Liberian neighbors in Liberia, Krio have varying degrees of European ancestry because some of the settlers were descended from European Americans and other Europeans. Through the Jamaican Maroons some Krio probably also have indigenous Jamaican ancestry. Alongside the Americo-Liberians, the Creoles are the only recognised ethnic group of African-American, Liberated African, and West Indian descent in West Africa. As with their Americo-Liberian neighbors, Creole culture is primarily westernized. The Krios developed close relationships with the British colonial power; they became educated in British institutions and held prominent leadership positions in Sierra Leone under British colonialism.

The vast majority of Creoles reside in Freetown and its surrounding Western Area region of Sierra Leone. The only Sierra Leonean ethnic group whose culture is similar (in terms of its integration of Western culture) are the Sherbro. From their mix of peoples, the Creoles developed what is now the native Krio language (a mixture of English and indigenous West African languages). It has been widely used for trade and communication among ethnic groups and is the most widely spoken language in Sierra Leone.[6]

The Creoles are primarily christian, although some scholars consider the Oku community of Sierra Leone as 'Creoles'. The Oku or Oku Mohammedans are known as Oku or Frobe (Fourah Bay) Krio and are the descendants of liberated Muslim Africans, who were mostly Yoruba from what is today Southwest Nigeria who settled in Freetown in the mid-19th century. Because the Creoles are a mixture of various ethnic groups and the Oku are mainly of Yoruba descent, some scholars do not classify the Oku as Creoles.

Due to their history, the vast majority of Creoles have European first names and surnames. Many have both English first names and last names. Most of the Oku Muslims have Islamic first names, some of them have English surnames.

bigfrancis21:


Oh my Gawd, this dude

Your article still supports Manning's calculations. Once more let us digest the very same source you posted:


It clearly states that from 1750 we begin to see more and more Yoruba slaves show up, which is what I have said here many times before. This dude does not listen. Yoruba slaves were not a majority from the Bight of Benin until the 19th century or 1800s. This article of yours clearly supports Manning's figures and by the foregoing, the population of exports is a realistic figure around 437,700. In other words, the Yorubas emerged late in the slave trade and is the major reason for the survivial of the religion in the new world. Another important fact your article also confirmed is that majority of these slaves were sent to Brazil and former French colonies. To think that you once posted an image of the DNA of African Americans showing Yoruba as majority. Once again, you just shot yourself in the leg.

You have clearly shifted stance severally in this debate. From your overly excited figure of 1.67m, to 986k, and now to 660k. Hmm why do I get this feeling that most of your debate is speculative? We need realistic quantifiable data, not speculative ones as you have been posting. Keep on sourcing boy, hopefully you find something to support your 1.67m figure.

There is nothing different between your new source and the source below from Manning.

bigfrancis21:


Dude, these words, except kushe, are old slang words only known by the elderly ones who are dying out soon. Modern Krio speakers DO NOT use these words anymore. Any Sierra Leonean speakers on this forum can confirm this for you.

Dude, you still did not answer my question. What is a living language? One that has native speakers and is used both at home and in public places. I asked, why did Yoruba NOT survive as a living language in Sierra Leone? Nobody, I mean, NOBODY speaks Yoruba as a native language in Sierra Leone, except a few individuals who may decide to learn the language as adults, but that does not make it a living language. The Government of SL DOES NOT recognize Yoruba language as one of its local languages. Do not make up claims that you cannot prove. This is an information age and information is out there to be easily gotten. I did mention before that a few Krio people bear Yoruba last names or middle names, but majority bear English names. A few also bear Igbo names like Obi, Okoro etc. Infact, Obi (which means King) is one popular name among the Krio community in SL.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Sierra_Leone

@bold...oh yes this time they did leave nothing behind. Not even the Ifa religion survived in SL as one would expect, but it survived in far away Latin America. What's even surprising, these folks never left Africa, never experienced slavery nor underwent any cultural or language stripping. How Yoruba language became a dead language in SL baffles me.

Interesting point. Sierra Leone Krio received smaller numbers of Igbo ex-slaves than Yoruba but the first president of Sierra Leone was a Krio man of Igbo extraction, Christopher Okoro Cole.

https://oblongmedia.net/2016/05/21/about-the-igbo-and-sierra-leone-what-you-should-know/

YourNemesis:


hmmmn,... first, Yoruba didn't contribute to Sierra Leone creole, That was proven wrong when I showed you that Yoruba was the largest African language contributor to Krio vocabulary.



Now you're talking about the Krio people who had Igbo origin? pls.
The Okus of Sierra leone speak both Krio, and Yoruba. Yorubas is not "dead" there by any means,lol.

If the first president of SL was Okoro Cole. How does that change any of my earlier point, or prove any of your earlier points that there are very few Yoruba words in Creole lexicon?

bigfrancis21:


Dude, all these still do not answer my questions. You're being evasive. Modern day SL Krio speakers, except kushe, do not speak any Yoruba words in them. Second, the language is dead in SL with no native speakers.

The website you posted even claimed krio, bad way of saying Creole, comes from Yoruba.

YourNemesis:


hmmmn,... first, Yoruba didn't contribute to Sierra Leone creole, That was proven wrong when I showed you that Yoruba was the largest African language contributor to Krio vocabulary.



Now you're talking about the Krio people who had Igbo origin? pls.
The Okus of Sierra leone speak both Krio, and Yoruba. Yorubas is not "dead" there by any means,lol.

If the first president of SL was Okoro Cole. How does that change any of my earlier point, or prove any of your earlier points that there are very few Yoruba words in Creole lexicon?

The Sierra Leone Creole people (or Krio people) are an ethnic group in Sierra Leone. They are the descendants of freed African American, West Indian and Liberated African slaves who settled in the Western Area of Sierra Leone between 1787 and about 1885. The colony was established by the British, supported by abolitionists, under the Sierra Leone Company as a place for freedmen. The settlers called their new settlement Freetown. Today, the Krio comprise about 4% of the population of Sierra Leone.

Like their Americo-Liberian neighbors in Liberia, Krio have varying degrees of European ancestry because some of the settlers were descended from European Americans and other Europeans. Through the Jamaican Maroons some Krio probably also have indigenous Jamaican ancestry. Alongside the Americo-Liberians, the Creoles are the only recognised ethnic group of African-American, Liberated African, and West Indian descent in West Africa. As with their Americo-Liberian neighbors, Creole culture is primarily westernized. The Krios developed close relationships with the British colonial power; they became educated in British institutions and held prominent leadership positions in Sierra Leone under British colonialism.

The vast majority of Creoles reside in Freetown and its surrounding Western Area region of Sierra Leone. The only Sierra Leonean ethnic group whose culture is similar (in terms of its integration of Western culture) are the Sherbro. From their mix of peoples, the Creoles developed what is now the native Krio language (a mixture of English and indigenous West African languages). It has been widely used for trade and communication among ethnic groups and is the most widely spoken language in Sierra Leone.[6]

The Creoles are primarily christian, although some scholars consider the Oku community of Sierra Leone as 'Creoles'. The Oku or Oku Mohammedans are known as Oku or Frobe (Fourah Bay) Krio and are the descendants of liberated Muslim Africans, who were mostly Yoruba from what is today Southwest Nigeria who settled in Freetown in the mid-19th century. Because the Creoles are a mixture of various ethnic groups and the Oku are mainly of Yoruba descent, some scholars do not classify the Oku as Creoles.

Due to their history, the vast majority of Creoles have European first names and surnames. Many have both English first names and last names. Most of the Oku Muslims have Islamic first names, some of them have English surnames.

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5934495/1/

YourNemesis:


lol, you are the one being Evasive and lying to all our faces.
First, you said there are very few to no Yoruba words in Krio (How the Sierra Leoneans themselves pronounce their language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krio_language

.... You were shown otherwise.
Then you went rambling about how the first president there was an Okoro to cover up your tracks.
Now you are repeating the same thing that 'Kushe" is the Only Yoruba words SL creoles use.


http://www.ucl.ac.uk/atlas/yoruba/introduction.html

bigfrancis21:


Well, actually Krio people are descendants of african american slaves, gullah people, slaves from Jamaica, nova scotians etc. who settled in Freetown SL and are mostly Christians. The Yoruba descendants are called Oku and they tend to be moslims. Because, Oku are liberated Africans who never left the continent, they are often not regarded as Creole people.

YourNemesis:


Yes, the predominantly Yoruba ones are called Okus, and are said to be predominantly Muslims.
The Other Yorubas, especially the christian ones are a major components of the Creole themselves.
You are not saying anything new.

bigfrancis21:


Fake map, fake everything. Imagine a map that cannot correctly tell Togo from Benin.

Shown otherwise, from your fake website that credits 'krio' from 'creole' to Yoruba too?

Keep basking in the attention academic sources are giving you, when in reality only half of it is deserved.

An understanding of Yoruba will grant you access to a wide variety of Yoruba-speaking cultures across the globe. Yoruba is the native language of the Yoruba people, is an official language of Nigeria, and is widely spoken in Togo, Benin, and Sierra Leone. It is also a prominent language for communities in Brazil, Venezuela, Cuba, Trinidad, Tobago, Puerto Rico, and Haiti. Yoruba is a language of significant interest to linguists. The skills demonstrated by mastery of less commonly taught languages such as Yoruba are valuable to employers and graduate programs, and fluency in Yoruba itself is sought by government agencies and international non-governmental organizations.

YourNemesis:




https://languages.wisc.edu/language-tags/yoruba

More "Fake fake fake" for you.

bigfrancis21:


Once again,

Dude, all these still do not answer my questions. You're being evasive. Modern day SL Krio speakers, except kushe, do not speak any Yoruba words in them. Second, the language is dead in SL with no native speakers. With your newest source, you are still being speculative. As of modern krio today, there is no Yoruba linguistic influence on the language, except kushe. Those words from the fake website you posted are old slang words, probably used among the Oku people of old not the entire Krio, no longer in modern day Krio usage.

The website you posted before even claimed krio, bad way of saying Creole, comes from Yoruba.

bigfrancis21:




This dude ehh...kai.

More original for you: Languages of Sierra Leone. Yoruba is NOT listed among the list.

https://www.ethnologue.com/country/sl/languages

Region: Most of Oyo, Ogun, Ondo, Osun, Kwara, Lagos states; Kogi state, west LGAs. Also in Benin, Sierra Leone, Togo, United Kingdom, United States.

What has become apparent to me from reading various books on the Gullah people is that they inherited various things from several different ancestors. Most of their quotidian cultural performances have heavy Sierra Leonean and Liberian imprints, to use the modern identifiers for their places of origin. In terms of lexical influences in their language, Senegambia (Mandingo, Fulani, Wolof, etc.) and Angola tend to predominate, although there are tinctures of lexical influences from almost all of the ethnicities from which they trace their ancestral provenance.
In personal names, Yoruba is disproportionately dominant, especially given that slave records from the Port of Charleston in South Carolina show that less than 1 percent of the ancestors of the Gullah are Yoruba. Of the nearly 4,000 personal names Turner recorded, I identified 775 names that are unmistakably Yoruba, including names like Oduduwa (the mythological Yoruba progenitor), and even names of Yoruba sub-groups like Ijesa and Ogbomosho.

Nonetheless, as the records I quoted above show, merely looking at the percentage distribution of Africans brought to the Sea Islands to determine the Nigerian origins of Gullah people may be misleading since a large number of their ancestors came to their present location by way of the Caribbean Islands. My sense is that the Nigeria influence in Gullah culture and language emerged from their ancestors who came from the Caribbean Islands.

YourNemesis:


Funny that you have decided to quote the same ethnologue but have absolutely nothing to say about Yoruba influence on Krio language as acknowledged by Ethnologue. which goes completely against your previous assertions.
You even stylishly removed it from what you posted.

Anyways:


http://archive.ethnologue.com/16/show_language.asp?code=yor