According to religions like Christianity and Islam, the answer is yes.

Here's the good news: the religions are all wrong, so there is no God, and there is no hell.  No cause for alarm.

Nope,seun.According to these two religions,everybody will go to hell!Cause for alarm,especially for satan,because overpopulation is underway for the Federal Republic of Hell!Muhahahaha!!Economic crisis!Bwahahahaha!!!

So guys are we in agreement if we say the following:

1. The only way to heaven is through Christ.

2. However, there are indeed some who genuinely did not believe, because the preacher appeared ungodly (as many propsperity, miraculous, Naija and USA preachers often appear).

This non-believer will surely not go to hell because the bible says that the sins of these ones will be borne by the ungodly (false) preacher?

I am really in search of the truth here.

@ group point, can i use that same excuse on the judgement day?

Errr God if not for pastors like Reverend King, i would have been born again. . .

LOL.  

God Himself will slap me, if I use Rev King as my own excuse O.

But seriously. There are illiterate people from China to Russia to Katsina that rely on a preacher to read and interprete the word of God to them.
Are we saying that God will hold these innocent people to book if they genuinely believed wrongly?

Somehow, I think not.

mrpataki:

Probably you should go to the forum games and make such wishes. Making it here, is equivalent to pouring water on a hard rock as to my case, because I will never stop short of telling you where you are wrong as to the scriptures.

*Paraphrasing*

". . . because I will never stop short of telling you how deluded, blind and confused you are whenever I don't agree with you."

See, you're free to point out my errors, I have absolutely no problems with that.  I have observed this religion section of the forum and realised that 85% of topics created here are questions, requiring clarification.  Obviously, no one knows it all.  But when people are being insulted for stating wrongly (if at all) what they feel about a particular matter, rather than being corrected reasonably, then one has every reason to wonder.  You know, it's a good thing I'm not the only one that reads some of your posts and wonders. . . (don't ask! )

If you guys have been calm enough to notice, you'd see that I never presented any of my inputs here as facts that should be generally accepted; and I have really stood to be corrected.  But when your refutations do not appeal to me, do you expect me to just accept so as to appear as some "good Christian" before you?  Do you think I am disagreeing just because I want to?  Perhaps, you guys should be wondering why I am not seeing "the truth" you claim to showing me.  Could it be because of your manner of approach?  Actually, it's just a part of it.

Again, pataki, I went through this thread from page 2 to this present page, and I never came across a single post of yours that "told me 'where' I was wrong as to the scripture".  Rather, all I came across were your "lovely, 'Christianly' addenda" to the others' inputs as to how fallacious my inputs were, how a post I directed to trini_girl appeared contrary to you, how deluded my thought patterns were, how you sometimes mistake me for babs787, how I had too many errors loaded on me, how you totally misrepresented a post I made on another thread to make others believe I am a false Christian, how idiotic I jabbered, how hypocritical I was, your sanctimonious injunctions, and finally, the post I am currently replying to.

Anyway, I still honestly wish you and your friend could learn from TV01 and other mature Christians on this forum on how to reply to posts that you disagree with.  Humility is a Christian virtue. .  possess it!

Shalom.

David, I'm wondering:  Will an infant go to hell if he/she dies?

Grouppoint:

So guys are we in agreement if we say the following:

1. The only way to heaven is through Christ.

The only way to heaven is through the ESSENCE of christ,and by that i mean his message.The person of Jesus is of no relevance.He was just a mere messenger,a teacher.
LOVE and COMPASSION for humanity and God's creation at large,that is the essence of Christ.
It has nothing to do with religious affiliations.IMHO.

Grouppoint:

LOL.  

God Himself will slap me, if I use Rev King as my own excuse O.

But seriously. There are illiterate people from China to Russia to Katsina that rely on a preacher to read and interprete the word of God to them.
Are we saying that God will hold these innocent people to book if they genuinely believed wrongly?

Somehow, I think not.

groupP,

In such cases, I trust God that the basic truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to be saved will reach those incapable of "reading" it for themselves. If these people are taught error apart from that, the Holy Spirit will guide them, but the most important thing is to receive salvation and forgiveness thru christ.  

Remember, to as many as received him to them gave he power to become sons of God, illiterate or scholar.Through his spirit, God communicates error and your own spirit bears witness to what is and is not of Him.

goodguy, grow up (I already know your response "you too trini girl).

your problem is you have too much knowledge and no wisdom. you are guided too much by intellect. we all have to learn how to balance the two.

during your "break from the forum" I hope you consider being less of a bratty whiner, and more of reasonable young man who's willing to take correction.

5994 and counting , _{(*** anticipating goodguy's departure with great joy ****)}

goodguy:

David, I'm wondering: Will an infant go to hell if he/she dies?

wonder not. perhaps David will explain to you the age of accountability when we know right from wrong. i know you won't receive any truth from me.

besides, i read in some silly book somewhere that millions of babies who die are in cribs in a huge warehouse in heaven waiting for their earthly mothers who were saved to be rejoined with them. no worries.

I appreciate your post trini_girl.  Really, I do.

trini_girl:

during your "break from the forum" I hope you consider being less of a bratty whiner, and more of reasonable young man who's willing to take correction.

But the problem I seem to have with you here, and perhaps the other two is the "correction" you're referring to here.  So far, no one has pointed out anything substantial concerning that.

trini_girl:

5994 and counting , _{(*** anticipating goodguy's departure with great joy ****)}

No need to get overtly excited.  "I intend" was what I said.  Things may turn out differently as time goes on.

trini_girl:

wonder not. perhaps David will explain to you the age of accountability when we know right from wrong.

I was expecting this.  Thanks anyway, though I'm still anticipating David's response.

goodguy:

I appreciate your post trini_girl.  Really, I do.

But the problem I seem to have with you here, and perhaps the other two is the "correction" you're referring to here.  So far, no one has pointed out anything substantial concerning that.

No need to get overtly excited.  "I intend" was what I said.  Things may turn out differently as time goes on.

I was expecting this.  Thanks anyway, though I'm still anticipating David's response.

lol! and i really appreciate you being a good sport about it. 

5995, please don't disappointment me, i already booked the virtual party room and ordered virtual cake and balloons 

is the problem the fact that you can't take correction, or that  you don't like the way we correct you.  are you saying we should be nice and gentle like TV?

because we have all showed you valid points that you refuse or can't receive.

trini_girl:

5995, please don't disappointment me, i already booked the virtual party room and ordered virtual cake and balloons

With the rate at which we're going, I may possibly exceed 6000 tonight.

trini_girl:

is the problem the fact that you can't take correction, or that you don't like the way we correct you. are you saying we should be nice and gentle like TV?

I take corrections. Even on this thread, I took corrections from bari_kade. Besides, what you call corrections (if you're referring to David and pataki's inputs), I call them insults. I suggest you read from page 1 to really know how things turned out to how we're seeing it right now.

trini_girl:

because we have all showed you valid points that you refuse or can't receive.

What you call valid points, I responded accordingly to them. And rather than get further reasonable and maturely presented refutations from the opposing sides, ad hominem set in.

goodguy:

With the rate at which we're going, I may possibly exceed 6000 tonight.

I take corrections. Even on this thread, I took corrections from bari_kade. Besides, what you call corrections (if you're referring to David and pataki's inputs), I call them insults. I suggest you read from page 1 to really know how things turned out to how we're seeing it right now.

What you call valid points, I responded accordingly to them. And rather than get further reasonable and maturely presented refutations from the opposing sides, ad hominem set in.

you really like that little ad hominem word don't u. it is like this.  they resort to the "ad hominems" because you refuse to see the vaildity even when it is SCRIPTURALLY support.  so when you do that, just because you like to argue, it gives people the impression that you are deliberately avoiding the truth even when it's in right in front of you, without even considering the possibility that you might be wrong.  you already believe what you want and no one can change your mind, even if you are wrong.  that's the impression.

well, unless we baby you into believing, not rough you up.  but you bring it upon  yourself sha.

5997(fingers crossed) 

trini_girl:

they resort to the "ad hominems" because you refuse to see the vaildity even when it is SCRIPTURALLY support.

And since they resorted to ad hominem, I guess the validity of their scripturally supported input has been made clearer to me? I guess Jesus would also do the same, right?

Why do you overlook the responses I gave to these "scripturally supported" posts? Obviously, you guys refused to reason with me, because you believed you had said the final words on the issue, and when I came with my own refutation, the best you could do was to label me a deluded Christian.

Anyway, back to the topic itself. Syrup made a post here (5th paragraph), which I believe, has helped buttress my point further on this issue. She said that her belief in the existence of God is founded on having experienced His power and grace in a very real way. And my question is: What then happens to those who have never had such experiences, despite having just 'heard' the gospel?

goodguy:

And since they resorted to ad hominem, I guess the validity of their scripturally supported input has been made clearer to me? I guess Jesus would also do the same, right?

Why do you overlook the responses I gave to these "scripturally supported" posts? Obviously, you guys refused to reason with me, because you believed you had said the final words on the issue, and when I came with my own refutation, the best you could do was to label me a deluded Christian.

Anyway, back to the topic itself. Syrup made a post here (5th paragraph), which I believe, has helped buttress my point further on this issue. She said that her belief in the existence of God is founded on having experienced His power and grace in a very real way. And my question is: What then happens to those who have never had such experiences, despite having just 'heard' the gospel?

goodguy, this is what I was JUST telling you about. habaaaa. have a good break from the forum. *sigh* 

go back and read david and my posts. i don't feel like beating this dead horse anymore. i tire.

goodguy:

David, I'm wondering: Will an infant go to hell if he/she dies?

Num 14: 26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

@ Group point, thanks for your valid question. I must confess that like you when i was much younger i once asked my dad whether babies would go to hell or heaven.
The verse i just quoted gives us a very clear understanding of how God operates. There is definitely an age of accountability, below which God will not hold you guilty for whatever you do as you are not expected to know right from wrong at that age. It is clear that God set the age of 20 as the age at which you became accountable for your deeds.

Is 20 still the age of accountability today? No. In bible days, men were still having kids at 120 today that is not so. Now children of nowadays mature much earlier than the children of 30 yrs ago so it is likely the age of accountability is now much lower.

But yes infants who die go straight to heaven because at that age they are not responsible for their own actions.

goodguy:

And my question is: What then happens to those who have never had such experiences, despite having just 'heard' the gospel?

This question has been asked more than 50000089 times now. I am sure more than enough answers have been provided but since you are simply looking for the answers you want to hear in complete disregard to the various scriptural references that have been sighted to counter your argument, there is very little anyone can do but to leave you to continue peddling your "questions" while we settle down to have a productive discussion with the likes of grouppoint who are here to learn and not merely to attempt to show their "superior wisdom".
God bless you.

This simplistic "having-just-only-heard-the-Gospel-but-did-not-believe" argument is an empty drum. What happens to those who heard several times and yet still did not believe?

My own question: what happens to those who were taught chemistry by a bad teacher and thus could not understand the fundamentals? should they also fail their exams?

davidylan:

My own question: what happens to those who were taught chemistry by a bad teacher and thus could not understand the fundamentals? should they also fail their exams?

Heheheheheee!! Una no go kill me with laughter!

davidylan:

Num 14: 26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

@ Group point, thanks for your valid question. I must confess that like you when i was much younger i once asked my dad whether babies would go to hell or heaven.
The verse i just quoted gives us a very clear understanding of how God operates. There is definitely an age of accountability, below which God will not hold you guilty for whatever you do as you are not expected to know right from wrong at that age. It is clear that God set the age of [b]20 as the age at which you became accountable for your deeds.[/b]

Is 20 still the age of accountability today? No. In bible days, men were still having kids at 120 today that is not so. Now children of nowadays mature much earlier than the children of 30 years ago so it is likely the age of accountability is now much lower.
to learn and not merely to attempt to show their "superior wisdom".
God bless you.

hold on hold on hold on! wait just a minute here. David, explain to me how you came up with the age of accountability being 20?  So are you saying that if I die at 18 whether or not I am saved I will go to heaven?

What do you understand to be the "age of accountability"?

davidylan:

Is 20 still the age of accountability today? No. In bible days, men were still having kids at 120 today that is not so. Now children of nowadays mature much earlier than the children of 30 years ago so it is likely the age of accountability is now much lower.

But yes infants who die go straight to heaven because at that age they are not responsible for their own actions.

eeerrrmm i guess you missed the part in bold. When the Isrealites where in the wilderness, the cut of age for those who were held accountable for their trangressions was set at 20. please read several instances in Exodus and Numbers where the age was used as the cut off for those who were to be numbered as able to go to war or those who were to perish in the wilderness for their sins.

Today thanks to the fact that kids born today end up getting mature faster than those born in 1930, if you died at 18 without getting saved, you are on your own o.

davidylan:

eeerrrmm i guess you missed the part in bold. When the Isrealites where in the wilderness, the cut of age for those who were held accountable for their trangressions was set at 20. please read several instances in Exodus and Numbers where the age was used as the cut off for those who were to be numbered as able to go to war or those who were to perish in the wilderness for their sins.

Today thanks to the fact that kids born today end up getting mature faster than those born in 1930, if you died at 18 without getting saved, you are on your own o.

I have to do some contextual research to verify that. Ididn't miss it, I just couldn't see the relevance of referring to pre new covenant modus operandi. It will be interesting to see what I find on the age of accoutability in the old testament.

The age of accountability today is when you reach the age of cognition where you fully understand the gospel and can make a decision. it can be as early as 12 years old, dependant on the child's ability to understand.

I think the same thing is being argued.

"The age of accountability today is when you reach the age of cognition."

trini_girl:

The age of accountability today is when you reach the age of cognition where you fully understand the gospel and can make a decision. it can be as early as 12 years old, dependant on the child's ability to understand.

I don't know if fully understanding the Gospel defines the age of accountability/cognition. There are lots of grown-ups who do not have a basic understanding of other issues of life, let alone having to fully understand the Gospel.

I would offer that even in the Old Testament, children were seen as accountable for their actions without specifying an age bracket. 2 Ki 2:23-24 "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Number 26:31 should be understood in light of Deut. 1:39 - "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

The line that underscores what davidylan was trying to point out as far as regards the age of accountability is the clause: "had no knowledge between good and evil." When someone acts out of cognition/knowledge of between good and evil, such is demonstrating the age of accountability - IMHO. But there again, I may be wrong, and I'll graciously receive correction thereto.

davidylan:

Num 14: 26 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me.
30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

@ Group point, thanks for your valid question. I must confess that like you when i was much younger i once asked my dad whether babies would go to hell or heaven.
The verse i just quoted gives us a very clear understanding of how God operates. There is definitely an age of accountability, below which God will not hold you guilty for whatever you do as you are not expected to know right from wrong at that age. It is clear that God set the age of 20 as the age at which you became accountable for your deeds.

Is 20 still the age of accountability today? No. In bible days, men were still having kids at 120 today that is not so. Now children of nowadays mature much earlier than the children of 30 years ago so it is likely the age of accountability is now much lower.

But yes infants who die go straight to heaven because at that age they are not responsible for their own actions.

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

davidylan:

This question has been asked more than 50000089 times now. I am sure more than enough answers have been provided but since you are simply looking for the answers you want to hear in complete disregard to the various scriptural references that have been sighted to counter your argument, there is very little anyone can do but to leave you to continue peddling your "questions" while we settle down to have a productive discussion with the likes of grouppoint who are here to learn and not merely to attempt to show their "superior wisdom".
God bless you.

Once again, you evade the question, as usual. I will be greatly surprised if you tell me that you are a Christian today because you just 'heard' the gospel. If you say you are a Christian because of what you have experienced and seen, then why do you think others who haven't had such experiences will go to hell, as you've been trying to make me believe? Guy, I'm in serious need of answers here, I'm not here to show any superior wisdom.

davidylan:

My own question: what happens to those who were taught chemistry by a bad teacher and thus could not understand the fundamentals? should they also fail their exams?

They should not fail their exams because they know fully well the aftermath of their failure. They should get a Chemistry textbook by all means in order to pass their exams. This is absolutely not the case with an unbeliever. Again, your analogy is flawed.

4get_me:

This simplistic "having-just-only-heard-the-Gospel-but-did-not-believe" argument is an empty drum. What happens to those who heard several times and yet still did not believe?

You're asking the same question I need answers to.

One thing though, do you guys really think people just choose to disbelieve just because they feel like? For all you of to have believed in and accepted Jesus, you had to be convinced first, right?

@ goodguy,

Now that you have reached your 6000post maybe anther of your specie can enter the stage now, seeing your self acclaimed knowledge is nolonger working here

goodguy (m)
Lagos, Nigeria
Posts: 6000

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Re: What Then Happens To The Unbeliever?
« #121 on: Today at 02:40:19 PM »

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Quote from: 4get_me on Today at 01:30:52 AM
This simplistic "having-just-only-heard-the-Gospel-but-did-not-believe" argument is an empty drum. What happens to those who heard several times and yet still did not believe?

You're asking the same question I need answers to.

One thing though, do you guys really think people just choose to disbelieve just because they feel like? For all you of to have believed in and accepted Jesus, you had to be convinced first, right?

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My question to you is if ever you accepted Jesus how did it happen?

6,000!!!!!

Break out the confetti guys! Goodguy is as good as gone! woohoo!!

_{** trini dances around thread in jubilation! ***}

Enjoy your time away goodguy, we'll miss you!

Yeah, i'll especially miss his mutilation of the bible and the use of human wisdom to understand spiritual truths.

Not understanding the "issues of life" does not automatically transfer to not knowing right from wrong and/or understanding the gospel (meaning the messages of salvation - redemption to God through Jesus Christ, not the entire new testament ) with the exception of "special" cases of mental retardation.

Since the prerequisite for salvation is faith, infants up to a certain age of cognition cannot understand this, and it may vary from case to case.  The same is not true for an adult who is "immature" or chooses not to believe.

In any event, the debate as to whether infants go to heaven when they die i think, can only be known when we get to heaven, since one can argue that there is a difference between the penalty of inherited sin (from generation to generation)  which is SPIRITUAL DEATH,  adamic sin (from adam to pre Christ) which in old testament times was PHYSICAL DEATH and sinning as a result of hearing the gospel and not believing/accepting, which could be coined as the UNBELIEVER whose penalty is ETERNAL SPIRITUAL DEATH.

Ps. 51:5 — "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Rom. 5:14 — "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression."

So since we were born spiritually separated from God and die before reconciliation through Christ to Him, then it can be said our separation remains true after physical death, even as an infant.

However, knowing the nature of God, we can only hope that babies we like to call "innocent" will still enter heaven by his grace, since there is no such thing as an "innocent" baby/infant if we consider what the Bible contains.

Sometimes we are also guilty of over spiritualisation. God must have had a reason why of all the adults over 20 yrs of age who came out of Egypt, only 2 made it to the promised land. Would you claim that the 16yr old then was not conceived in sin too?

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Did Jesus forget that the little children here were also concieved in sin too?

davidylan:

Sometimes we are also guilty of over spiritualisation. God must have had a reason why of all the adults over 20 years of age who came out of Egypt, only 2 made it to the promised land. Would you claim that the 16yr old then was not conceived in sin too?

Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Did Jesus forget that the little children here were also concieved in sin too?

David, are you contending that I am over spiritualizing the so called "age of accountability"? It's quite simple.

Consider that only 2 entered because only 2 were found in obedience to the law instituted at that time.

As I said adamic/imputed sin's penalty which was atoned for by the levitican priesthood, carried a penalty of physical death regardless of age. But under the new covenant of grace, as long as even a child understands the message of salvation he can be saved.

However, we cannot take a firm stance and say that babies go to heaven, since we are all born separated from God.  We can hope and expect that the nature of God allows it.