Deep Sight:

If the information can be removed from one material thing and placed in another material thing, that deductivey affirms that the information exists independently of [b]either[/ b] of the material things.

Pastor AIO:

If absolutely every aspect of human behaviour can be caused by the brain then what does the Soul do?

Deep Sight:

Perhaps i may assist.

It appears to me that the analogy of splitting a brain may have certain problems: and more importantly it has a number of holes through which the escapist materialist may seek to divert attention and ask endless questions.

Let us rather come up with a different analogy:

Again, it is the year 2097, and mankind has discovered a way to make mechanical brains - in much the same way as mechanical parts are made nowadays for hearts, glands, ears or limbs.

Thus Tom's natural brain is defective or has a terrible tumor, or cancer. . .

We take out all the information in the natural brain and transfer it into the mechanical brain - a computer which will be implanted into his head in place of the brain.

Questions –

1. Where was Tom during the period of transfer of information?

a. In the original brain

b. In the machine

c. In between

i. He was not in the original brain as it is being discarded

ii. He is not yet in the machine, as it is just being “filled” with the information

iii. If he is in between, the materialist worldview collapses instantly – as it is thereby shown that the man may exist without a physical brain. . .

2. Let us ask: what if that information is stored for a while on a micro-chip, prior to being placed in the new mechanical brain?

a. Is Tom in the Micro-Chip

b. Is the Micro-Chip Tom

c. Where is Tom?

3. Since it is asserted by the materialist that “the brain is the man” – now that the brain has been replaced by a mechanical computer (or a micro-chip), can we also with equally-footed logic assert that “the computer is the man”[/i] or “the micro-chip IS THE MAN?”

4. If the information passed from the brain to the computer is what defines TOM the man, then clearly that information itself is TOM – Not the brain, and not the computer – but the information. Accordingly and automatically it follows that the materialist assertion that the man is the brain must fail as the man can now exist without the brain. Rather the information stored within the brain is now what is more important, and is transferred to a computer or a microchip which can perform the function of the discarded brain? Once this is accepted, as it per force must be, then it has been incontrovertibly shown that the brain is not the man but that it holds something else which defines the man – and which may be transferred outside the brain!

5. If that information can be transferred outside the brain, then there is no reason to suppose that it cannot be transferred to another brain for example in the form of a baby. . . thus. . .reincarnation?

Se.xy stuff. . .Puristic materialism is a joke. . .

Deep Sight:

I would have thought that the brain is a tool via which the soul apprehends the world. Of course if the tool is defective, apprehension would be defective or impossible.

Pastor AIO:

No it doesn't!!!!

Would you care to spell out the steps of your deductive reasoning that affirms it.

KunleOshob:

What if the information on this micro chip or mechanical device is copy or downloaded to say ten different mechanical brians? would we have ten Toms in that regard?

Deep Sight:

I would have thought that the brain is a tool via which the soul apprehends the world. Of course if the tool is defective, apprehension would be defective or impossible.

Pastor AIO:

No it doesn't work and I'll break it down for you with an analogy.

I am quite capable of parasiting off my brother.

I am also quite capable of parasiting of my wife.

I can even parasite of my co-workers.

Does that mean that I can sustain myself without parasiting of anybody?  Does that mean that I can exist independent of parasiting of someone just because I have a variety of means of doing so?

toneyb:

The "soul" uses the brain to apprehend the world?

Here is a post from the link that was provide which shows how flawed your hypothesis is.

"The soul, apparently, must be somehow separate from the brain. There are a number of gaping flaws in this idea (as is often the case with religious pseudo-science). The most obvious one is this: If a person has a major physical change to their brain (due to injury, surgery, disease or oxygen starvation), it will often bring about a major change to their personality. Many people who suffer accidents that cause brain injury also undergo a personality change. It used to be common practice to lobotomise (surgically remove the frontal lobes of the brain) dangerously violent people as this brought about a dramatic change in their personality - they became much more subdued and docile.

There have been several cases where a person went into hospital for an operation, something went tragically wrong, perhaps with the anaesthetic, and the person suffered massive brain-damage as a result. Healthy, thinking, reasoning person before the operation, and a vegetable afterwards. What happened to the soul? Did the material drugs damage the immaterial soul?"

Deep Sight:

Your very words affirm that:

1. YOU EXIST (Thus the information exists)
2. YOU ARE NOT YOUR BROTHER, YOUR WIFE OR YOUR CO-WORKER (Thus the information is not the brain, or the mechanical brain, or the microchip, but is contained within them)

This already says a lot. For one thing it affirms the existence of the immaterial part.

If I understand you correctly, you are asking if that immaterial part can exist without a material “container”, “host” or “cloak” if I may use these terms.

Does it not strike you that what seems to be required is the “enabling environment” (if I may borrow a Nigeria political cliché) for the parasite to exist?

The parasite IS THERE. Just as the information is there.

What it requires is the environment to support it, and in this you are right.

But what you miss I believe, is the implication of the fact that a different environment corresponding with the nature of the parasite will enable it to sustain itself.

Thus once the “information” loses its “enabling environment” – in this case the physical body – death occurs.

This very fact suggests that the information is no longer within the defective host, and lies outside of it, yes?

Now I ask you; is there any logical problem with an immaterial thing resting in an immaterial environment? Or put differently – an abstraction being part of abstractions?

It is my personal belief that the information being immaterial is naturally held within an immaterial environment: the world of forms: which some refer to as the spirit realm.

For me it is sufficient to state that the information being immaterial is therefore abstract and rests in abstraction.

This is altogether different from stating that it does not exist any longer, for God itself is the ultimate abstraction.

Deep Sight:

Sorry, but this says nothing.

Will a defective tool not hamper the performance of its principal just as clearly suggested in the example you gave of a violent person?

What do you understand by the word “tool?”

Not good enough.

I hope you understand that you are suggesting to me the reverse;

Namely that the brain is the independent creature in itself and the man (with physical body, legs to walk about, etc) is its tool.

Abeg joooooooooooor!

Deep Sight:

Sorry, but this says nothing.

Will a defective tool not hamper the performance of its principal just as clearly suggested in the example you gave of a violent person?

What do you understand by the word “tool?”

Not good enough.

I hope you understand that you are suggesting to me the reverse;

Namely that the brain is the independent creature in itself and the man (with physical body, legs to walk about, etc) is its tool.

Abeg joooooooooooor!

Deep Sight:

Your very words affirm that:

1. YOU EXIST (Thus the information exists)
2. YOU ARE NOT YOUR BROTHER, YOUR WIFE OR YOUR CO-WORKER (Thus the information is not the brain, or the mechanical brain, or the microchip, but is contained within them)

This already says a lot. For one thing it affirms the existence of the immaterial part.

If I understand you correctly, you are asking if that immaterial part can exist without a material “container”, “host” or “cloak” if I may use these terms.

Does it not strike you that what seems to be required is the “enabling environment” (if I may borrow a Nigeria political cliché) for the parasite to exist?

The parasite IS THERE. Just as the information is there.

What it requires is the environment to support it, and in this you are right.

But what you miss I believe, is the implication of the fact that a different environment corresponding with the nature of the parasite will enable it to sustain itself.

Thus once the “information” loses its “enabling environment” – in this case the physical body – death occurs.

This very fact suggests that the information is no longer within the defective host, and lies outside of it, yes?

Now I ask you; is there any logical problem with an immaterial thing resting in an immaterial environment? Or put differently – an abstraction being part of abstractions?

It is my personal belief that the information being immaterial is naturally held within an immaterial environment: the world of forms: which some refer to as the spirit realm.

For me it is sufficient to state that the information being immaterial is therefore abstract and rests in abstraction.

This is altogether different from stating that it does not exist any longer, for God itself is the ultimate abstraction.

1. YOU EXIST (Thus the information exists)
2. YOU ARE NOT YOUR BROTHER, YOUR WIFE OR YOUR CO-WORKER (Thus the information is not the brain, or the mechanical brain, or the microchip, but is contained within them)

Pastor AIO:

So what is the function of the Soul? What does it do?

Pastor AIO:


The subject in this case is not Me, but my Parasite status.

Can I exist as a parasite, or better still Can a Parasite Exist Without Someone To Parisite Off?

Thus once the “information” loses its “enabling environment” – in this case the physical body – death occurs.

This very fact suggests that the information is no longer within the defective host, and lies outside of it, yes?

Now I ask you; is there any logical problem with an immaterial thing resting in an immaterial environment? Or put differently – an abstraction being part of abstractions?

It is my personal belief that the information being immaterial is naturally held within an immaterial environment: the world of forms: which some refer to as the spirit realm.

For me it is sufficient to state that the information being immaterial is therefore abstract and rests in abstraction.

Deep Sight:

^^^ The Soul is the being. It is the real entity.

The brain being a tool is what can be said to have a function in temporal terms.

THE soul cannot be spoken of as having a function in real terms. . . at best it can be said that it is the natural emanation of the energy of divinity and the self expression of the universal mind. . .

Deep Sight:

Toney will you positively assert to me that the Brain itself is a creature . . .

Does it not make more sense to assert that creatures have brains. . .

Address that!

toneyb:

The brain is not the creature but it controls every part of the creature.

Thoughts, voluntary and involuntary actions all have their origins from the brain

Where then does the soul come into play here?

Where in the human body does the soul reside

easylogic:

As i said earlier, the Soul in Theism or Dualism is what we refer as to the person.Therefore are you asking," At what point does a baby become a person?"

toneyb:

Here is an interesting video from Mazaje's youtube mega list.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsPn5dXfTvA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"[/flash]

Pastor AIO:

O pari o!  You don talk am finish.  Nothing more to add.