5solas:

Can you know for sure a person is born again?
Whoever is born again was predestinated.
Did you not read Paul talking of vessels of wrath fitted for destruction? Did you not read of God consoling Paul and telling him to abide in a city because He has much people there?

menxer:

How can Predestination a Bible doctrine, a pillar of Christian belief, be a sham, just because it does not sync with your version of Christianity?
That's funny.

menxer:

@bolded, can you see that sticking out like a sore thumb? The "knowledge of right and wrong" I guess is not the one Adam was accused of getting.

menxer:

How can anyone know who is born again?
Not possible.
There is no faithometer or spiritometer to measure that.

@bolded, That is as true as the reverse is.
Little by little we are peeling the layers...

@underlined, calls the creation story to question, making the Anunnaki version more believable.

Splinz:


This is totally out of syn with what I have up there. Please read and understand.

An2elect2:

In one of your posts you boldly and wrongly asserted that foreknowledge simply means knowing before hand.

An2elect2:

So if this "God" you preach knows before hand a dear friend of yours (whom "he" claims to love so much)won't choose life why does he create him still?

An2elect2:
Good morning everyone This is a discussion thread about historical Christianity and salient church doctrines. It's important to every diligent student of the Bible to know what the Bible holds as truth, what the early churches believed and what the best and wisest men in history preached. And how passionate they were about what they preached. Guess? every wise person would consider why they held on to those truths even in the face of great opposition. Surely there has to be something in it!

Brother 5Solas and any other person with sound contributions and/or questions are officially welcome.

We would commence with a book by Loraine Boettner
[b]THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION You can download the PDF and it's corresponding audio files ( all on Google) [/i][/b]

WHO IS LORRAINE BOETTNER?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loraine_Boettner

Splinz:


Oh sorry, I'm not arguing for/against Op's book. I'm only sharing what is predestination which the book seems to discussed.

But then, claiming that some are predestined to inherit eternal life and some, eternal death, doesn't portray God as loving but our very enemy. Yes. He is a monster who having predestined some to commit every conceivable sin, still went ahead and condemned these ones that were simply doing His bidding. What sort of a God is that? Is God then lying and being hypocritical when He said that He wants ALL to come to repentance and be saved? (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9)

Of course no. Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).

menxer:

How can anyone know who is born again?
Not possible.
There is no faithometer or spiritometer to measure that.

@bolded, That is as true as the reverse is.
Little by little we are peeling the layers...

@underlined, calls the creation story to question, making the Anunnaki version more believable.

An2elect2:

This does not portray God as loving?Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What else does?

Let's look at what you consider as loving: God love Mr A(who is a slave of sin). Knew before time that Mr A won't choose life but rather death. Why are you not also mad at God for going ahead to bring into this world Mr A He love even when he knows his "fate" beforehand. Isn't this unloving to you?

Splinz:


Wrong? Okay, teach me. What is foreknowledge?

Splinz:


Wrong? Okay, teach me. What is foreknowledge?

5solas:

The doctrine of predestination was taught by Christ' himself, why should it pose a problem to His gospel?
Read John 6:44,65, John 10 and 17. Jesus continously talked of those GIVEN to Him and of His ''sheep'' and of those who could not hear His Word because they were not His ''sheep''. He also declared that it took the ''drawing '' of the Father for anyone to come to Him . Read also Matthew 11:25-27.

An2elect2:
Splintz of course you are not stupid. I wasn't expecting you to accept your view of God even when it's so obvious. But let's see one of your posts about predestination bit by bit [i] Is this not biblical?

...and some, eternal death, doesn't portray God as loving but our very enemy. Yes. He is a monster who having predestined some to commit every conceivable sin, still went ahead and condemned these ones that were simply doing His bidding.

5solas:

Could God have justly condemned all men as a result of Adams sin? Was He under obligation to save ALL men? Would He be unjust if He decided to save SOME and not ALL?

An2elect2:
Yes foreknowledge to a layman or in our world is knowing before hand a thing. But it has a deeper meaning in the Bible than just knowing before hand.

An2elect2:

The "knowledge" in the word is not just information but connotes LOVE. FORE-LOVED=FORE=KNOWN.

JMAN05:


He won't be unjust if he decided to save some, and condemn many who chose the wrong path. but He would be unjust to predestine them for evil, and then kill them for acting out a role he wrote for them.

An2elect2:


Unfortunately there isn't going around this. In one of your posts you boldly and wrongly asserted that foreknowledge simply means knowing before hand. You agree that God knows before time everything.

So if this "God" you preach knows before hand a dear friend of yours (whom "he" claims to love so much)won't choose life why does he create him still?

Isn't this "God" you preach powerful enough to change your dear friend's will to choose him and be saved?

This "God" you preach claims to love every individual, has the power to save all of them but wont save them still but make them "savable" Let's not even start yarping about their inability to choose him on their own.

The "God" we preach claims to love his own who are of the world and has determined to save them all not letting anyone perish. The rest he doesn't save because He loves them not.

Which God is Almighty and truly loving?

JMAN05:


The problem you have seem to stem from total omniscient you attribute to God. It is better to state that God has the ability to foreknow everything, but God doesn't use this ability ALWAYS.

When God created Adam and Eve, didn't foreknow what they would choose. He left such for them. There is no how we can state that God predestined every human without holding Him accountable for the woes of humanity over the past and pressnt centuries. No way!

It means all of us are just acting out a role, and the evil are punished for doing what they are cloned to perform.

The Bible talks of the predestination of the elect and not the non-elect. And Salvation as a gift. These are facts any sincere and objective person would readily accept.


You are bringing in sentiments and emotions into the Bible that's why you can't understand or accept the truth!

For you to be a Freewiller you would have to ignore so many scriptures. And what you have at the end are inconsistencies and a doctrinal system built on contradictions

Study to show thyself approved!

Splinz:


Oh really?



Wow... Is there any FORE-HATED?

oaroloye:


Foolish people say that things are "IMPOSSIBLE."
As if no one can know more than them.

Wise people say that THEY are the ones IGNORANT of how to do things.


There is a METER that can MEASURE FAITH and SPIRITUAL POWER.

It is called the E-Meter.

It is used in the SCIENTOLOGY Religion.

An2elect2:
Have you now seen the Bible meaning of "know"? That's how you should study. The Bible must interpret itself.

JMAN05:


John 6:45 explains:

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me"

So if any of the Jews back then were sincere lovers of God, they would easily accept what Jesus said and follow him. This doesn't mean that if you are blocked hearted like the pharisees and chooses not to believe in God no matter the evidence, that God will draw you. Draw you for what? To come and become a Christian halfheartedly?

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Splinz:


Are you kidding me? You mean the bible interpreted “foreknowledge” to mean love: “FORE-LOVED=FORE=KNOWN”? Please where is this interpretation in the bible? By the way, don't you think the “FORE=KNOWN” that forms part of your definition still mean to “know before”, which you said is wrong?

An2elect2:
I've shown you how "know" is used in the Bible. I would be surprised if you admit you have learned something.

5solas:

Thanks for your comments. It would have thrilled me to see you answer John 6:44,45 . Rather than do that you jumped to John 6:45!
It is clear from the context God draws whom He wills just as He quickens whom He wills not as a result of our MERIT.

John 5:21
.
So ''drawing'' is a gift of His grace, not a reward for our efforts

JMAN05:


He won't be unjust if he decided to save some, and condemn many who chose the wrong path. but He would be unjust to predestine them for evil, and then kill them for acting out a role he wrote for them.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

An2elect2:
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

A false Christian is not aware of how blind and deceitful his heart is. His false assurance produces a great confidence in his own opinions.Jonathan Edward

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

5solas:

Pelagians, Semi-Pelagians (Arminians ) and Open Theists will never interprete this verse correctly,65 as well..
John 6:65

5solas:


The most important question is, does the scripture teach predestination? Even the predestination of the non-elects? Consider the verses below:

Jude. 4


. 1 Peter 2:8

5solas:

Thanks for your comments. It would have thrilled me to see you answer John 6:44,45 . Rather than do that you jumped to John 6:45!
It is clear from the context God draws whom He wills just as He quickens whom He wills not as a result of our MERIT.

John 5:21
.
So ''drawing'' is a gift of His grace, not a reward for our efforts

Modified.
Thanks for your comments. It would have thrilled me to see you answer John 6:44,65 . Rather than do that you jumped to John 6:45!

An2elect2:


The Bible talks of the predestination of the elect and not the non-elect. And Salvation as a gift. These are facts any sincere and objective person would readily accept.


You are bringing in sentiments and emotions into the Bible that's why you can't understand or accept the truth!

For you to be a Freewiller you would have to ignore so many scriptures. And what you have at the end are inconsistencies and a doctrinal system built on contradictions

Study to show thyself approved!