Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. - Religion (4) - Nairaland
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| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:10pm On May 18, 2017 |
An2elect2:Thanks so much for the question. No, it is for believers. Though if it is warranted, it can be explained to them. For example, if an unbeliever has heard about it and asks to know the Bible's position,the child of God must not flinch at all in their answer.The truth breaks and heals. It can offend them temporary and later be the means God uses to save them. It can also offend permanently , but in that case the believer has done their job faithfully. The outcome of our labours depends on our God and not us. Also to be noted is that this doctrine strikes at the root of ''freewill '' which is the direct opposite of predestination. The sooner the sinner knows that their salvation is not in their hands to turn on and off like a light bulb, as they please, the better for them. Predestination of course is comprised of two parts- election and reprobation . Election is the choice of certain persons unto everlasting life by God before the foundation of the world. Not because of their merits but for His own purpose and grace .Reprobation is God’s passing by of certain persons and leaving them in their sins. Yes! There is not only an election of persons unto salvation there is also a bypass of persons by God. John Wesley said he would have believed the doctrine of election if it did not imply predestination.Half of his heresies have not been told. The early Protestants however believed in both and their writings give witness to this. Election is a very comforting doctrine for believers and it ought to be taught to them . What if it is done during the church service? What if it is done in a bible study or Sunday school? How can we be sure we will not have an unbeliever present ? And must we teach it in a corner? Thus to teach election we must also be ready to teach reprobation, as far as it is warranted. For reprobation see Jude 4 and 1 Peter 2:8. It is not only implied by election but affirmed by the Bible. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 2:34pm On May 19, 2017 |
5solas:Thank you so much 5Solas. You just cleared my doubts. About reprobation very true. Even if it's just a verse, as long as its clearly defined, then it is true. I was wrong to think God is only actively working in the vessels of honour and passively in those of dishonour. If I accept that some are made for honour, I must accept also that some others are for dishonour. Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. It's God's world  1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Nobody: 12:32am On May 20, 2017 |
An2elect2: My dear i know the meaning of context as you have seen. you do detach verses out of context. You have quoted verses and you have given them your own interpretation without paying attention to biblical facts Of course, it is. for one thing, no one can earn eternal life because you cannot qualify by just your own conduct. no one can live without sinning, as such, no one merits it. The way to be saved through the sacrificial death of Christ was made available by God himself, not any human. Nor is salvation by works of law. Since no one can live perfectly, but has to be helped by Christ's sacrifice, eternal life is a gift from God. however, this does not mean that it comes without effort from those God give it. Paul says he pummel his body and leads it as a slave so that he does not lose the race. This shows that his effort is needed to make his calling sure. You ve not provided any point against that. Phil 3:12-14 reads: "Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see[b] if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me[/b]. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus" Paul says he is pressing on to see IF he MAY lay hold on it. And it is interesting to note that all this "pressing on" comes after he has been "selected"(or apprehended of christ). 1. You cannot be pressing on towards something you cant lose, whats the point? 2. KJV says "press toward the mark for the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". All the boldfaced words/phrases shows diligence to attain something you dont get by sitting one place after selection. Notice that it is called PRIZE. That word conveys the sense of reward for an effort one made. It is still a gift cos no matter the effort, you cant be perfect, but God rewards your hardwork for His name. read Heb 6:10. If we go by your interpretation of those verses then salvation cannot be a gift but a reward for living/working right/fighting sin. But the passage that speaks of salvation says it is a gift. What then? I give you an example of Hymenaeus and Philetus, who deviated from the faith after being called. 2Tim 2:17, 18 You can lose your crown dear, read Rev 3:11. No two ways about it. Please Read Romans chapter 6. (I won't highlight any part so you don't say I am picking) see boldfaced - Tell me the plausibility of that exhortation if one cant retire into willful sin after being called? [i]it says do not "let". An effort, dont you think? For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. lets analyse this: YOU obeyed from the heart. This is a comment about an effort they made to ward off bad habits, dont you think so? Now, he goes further, "just as YOU presented YOUR members as slaves.... so NOW present YOUR members as slaves of righteousness". This shows that when they were living as gentiles, they were the ones who, on their own practiced unrighteousness, now they are urged to make a change, by PRESENTING their bodies for righteousness. Dear, this implies effort from the recipients of the letter. God didnt make them unrighteous people when they were gentiles. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord[/b] Again, you misinterpreted that. Sin must not dominate over them does not mean that this CANNOT happen after being called. Demas, Hymenaeus and Philetus example will fault such claims. He is rather urging them to present their bodies for righteousness, not giving way to sin. verse 15: What follows? Are we to commit a sin because we are not under law but under undeserved kindness? Certainly not!" What was his point? that since grace is available (a means to forgive sin through Jesus sacrifice), they should not go on sinning presuming on God's forgiveness thru the ransom, for such conduct will amount to slavery to sin. verse 16 buttress the point. in verse 17, he acknowleged that they were obedient from the heart from the doctrine delivered to them. this conveys personal effort. verse 19 gave the exhortation to continue presenting themselves as slaves for righteousness. They are the ones to do the presentation, not God. Another example: In corinth, we find this incident: 1cor. 5:1,2 - "Actually sexual immorality is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife. 2 And are you proud of it? Should you not rather mourn, so that the man who committed this deed should be taken away from your midst?" This shows that someone atleast were living in sin after being called back then. He then counseled: verse 11 - "But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man" - First, this counsel would have been meaningless had any who was called never could live in sin again. Secondly, it shows that some back then were already living in sin, and needed to be disfellowshiped to clean the church. Some sinners were also found in other congregations, read Rev 2:15, 16. How do you subject your body by yourself? Is it not by doing this and not doing that? But there is another way to do that which is by grace. The "doing and not doing this" law keeping attitude is a weak and fruitless way of subjecting or disciplining your body. It cannot lead to glory(the crown of life) but shame and death. The glory God gives to His servants is associated to receiving their heavenly reward. So you cant gain eternal life without glory. As we go further along your interpretation, does it mean that according to that Rev 3:11, one can prove unfaithful thru the trials, and then gain eternal life and not glory? I dont see how that looks plausible. Secondly, the scripture says "crown of life". That to me points to extending eternal life. dont you think? There is "crown of glory" and "crown of righteousness" mentioned in the bible. This one is "crown of life". Thirdly, after mentioning that the crown of life is what God promised to the ones who loves Him in James 1:12, chapter 2:5 indicates that the kingdom was what He promised to those who love Him. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Paul is here attributing the hardwork he puts in to God. It is good to give all praises to God who gave you the power to do what you do. If God hard not sent the ransom, he would not be opportune to make such exploits. This does not mean that God is remote-controlling your powers. Nope. Rom 2:12 says "keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" I can do all this through him who gives me strength Of course, God can help you, but wont do the work for you. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? it will appear as if this verse is stating that God remotes people(eg the Philipians) to do His will. No, God's working or energizing you is if you ask for His help, and do your part. This could be seen when we move forward in that verse to 21, we ll see that some who do not avail themselves of Gods help and do their part, would make the wrong choice. luk 13:24 says "Exert yourselves vigorously (strive to enter kjv) to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able". We need to strive for the kingdom, God will now help. God wills that all be saved, but any who do not want to avail themselves of God's help will die eternally altho Gods will is that all be saved. The crown of life certainly cannot be salvation but the glory ahead. How do we partake of the glory ahead without partaking in the sufferings of Christ too? The two of them must go together! Like Paul all Christians must fellowship in Christ's suffering and death. God sent His son so that "so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life". john 3:16 Whoever makes the choice to believe in Jesus, will be saved. That is a fruitful choice if you ask me. Rev 22:17 "And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, “Come!” and let anyone hearing say, “Come!” and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take life’s water free". That wish would be a fruitful one, dont you think? At Josh 24:15 we see that Joshua's choice is a good one that will lead to salvation. No so? First of all. The crown of life is not eternal life. Christians have eternal life already. Christians are not enduring death or suffering to earn eternal life but they are suffering because of the love of God in their hearts and the glory ahead. Why cant He search a man's heart? Rather the account shows that God searched the heart with a view to rewarding individuals according to their deeds. Why search the heart for such reward when their destiny is already determined? Meanwhile. God would judge us according to our deeds in our bodies. True. But the deeds of the righteous are wrought in grace. So they are considered as fruits of the gift of grace or eternal life. There is no room for boasting because it is God's work from beginning to end. Of course, there is grace to forgive any christian that sin, but that provision is also available to the sinners who wish to repent. Acts 2:38; The Corinthians were formerly grave sinners. 1Cor 6:11 If its Gods work from beginning to end, none will slack back after being called. But we see some slack back Rev 2:20-22 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 11:29am On May 20, 2017 |
JMAN05:You agree Eternal life is a gift? Lol the contradiction again. "Eternal life is a gift but you have to work for it too" No need for long argument. You don't believe it's a gift but a reward. You are just not stupid to bluntly say it. Still yet, any objective person can see what you implying. No one works for a gift. Imagine after working my life out to earn a monthly pay and it's termed a gift not a reward on point of reception. Doesn't make sense because that would mean I don't deserve the pay in spite of my work. For it to be a gift, then I can't work for it but would get it on a platter. Freewillers cannot see eternal life as a gift. If they do they will have to accept the doctrine of predestination and election which they hate. So I understand why you have to "twist" the truth to make eternal a "gift and a reward". Even when I showed you that it wasn't Eternal life Paul was pummeling his body for? And also showed you that Paul did nothing without God's grace working in him? You still think God's grace isn't sufficient but a special effort from Paul. Well it's not that I've not provided any point against that it is that you don't see eternal life as a gift. Because if you did you would not interpret a verse that is not talking of eternal life against one that plainly spells it out. For someone who believes salvation or eternal life is a reward, I don't see you interpreting that another way. [i] This is drawn because "eternal life is a reward" You are getting bolder now. Now you can say "It is a reward" Yet in order not to sound too "biblically off" you still "maintain" it's a gift. [i] Sure you can if it depends on you. But in the Bible it depends on God. His grace and promises. Yes thanks, I'm sticking with the Bible Why won't it be "an effort" when "Salvation or eternal life is a reward" Not expecting you to contradict yourself, am I? Ya you obeyed from that stony, wicked and deceitful heart. It was really an effort! Sure! The Bible is such a book of lies. How dare it say no one can do good or non is righteous or non is seeking God when there are people (outside Christ)according to you who can choose not to submit themselves to sin. There are definitely people who would not submit their bodies to sin and are living sinless lives. It's not an automatic submission but a willful submission. Yeah let God be a liar and Freewillism true. Ya Bible says Sin cannot have dominion over believers anymore because they are under grace, but I forgot for freewillism to have its way, the believer must not think he is no more a slave of sin and now a slave of righteousness but he must see none as his master. Moreso Bible says People who leave us were never a part of us. Like Judas, they appear to be spiritually called. But freewillism has to rear its ugly head and twist the truth into a beautiful lie. When "eternal life and salvation are rewards" works and efforts become inevitable. Grace is only an abstract thing that only offers forgiveness but is not an ability to overcome sin. Your freewill theology has been consistent so far Yeah when the enemy wants to plant his children in the midst of God's children he won't give them a form of godliness and false righteous appearance to deceive the truly called. He would plant atheists in the midst of unbelievers. Indeed. "Isn't Salvation a reward" Exactly! God can't be the one working inside of us both to will and to do but He is just a standby supplying us power occasionally. It's high time we removed parts of the scriptures because they are really getting in the way of freewillism! Very consistent. "Eternal life is a reward" How do we arrive at all these wrong conclusions? Simple. When we believe that we are not dead in sins and trespasses Ephesians 2:1,2. And when we believe Salvation is not a gift but a reward or part-gift. Ephesians 2:8,9. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by ichuka(m): 11:52am On May 20, 2017 |
Salvation is free; it is not obtained through man’s work. It is God who has GRACED us. We are not saved through any merit of our own. We can look at a few verses from the Bible: "Ho! Everyone who thirsts [the sinners], / Come to the waters [God’s salvation], / And you who have no money [merits, righteous acts, etc.]; / Come, buy and eat [every sinner can believe and be saved]; / Yes, come, buy wine and milk [the joy of salvation] / Without money and without price [without righteous acts and without goodness in oneself]" (Isa. 55:1). "The gift of God" (John 4:10). "But the gift of God is eternal life" (Rom. 6:23). "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). "Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5). "Let him who wills take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17). We should pay attention to the above verses. These verses, and many others which i have not quoted, prove that our salvation is free. It does not come about through our work or our righteous acts. We are saved through the grace of God. All there is for us to do is to believe in God’s gift of grace, that is, in God’s free gift. We must be very clear about this. The work of salvation is completely accomplished for us by the Lord Jesus. He died on the cross to accomplish our salvation. If we want to be saved and have eternal life now, we do not need to have any more work or to accumulate any merit. All that is needed is for us to believe and to receive. None of our good deeds are acceptable before God. In the whole New Testament, there are over one hundred fifty times(150+)where it says that we receive salvation by believing or that we receive eternal life by believing. God never lies to us. He says, "Believe, believe, believe." When we believe, we are saved, have eternal life, and are justified. This is free. "God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (1 John 5:11-12). According to the Word of God, everyone who receives the Lord Jesus as Savior by faith has eternal life. Truly, "He who believes into the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36). The minute we believe, we have it! But reward is different. It is different from gift. Reward is not given for free. It is obtained through good works. Reward is given according to the saints’ work. We can look at the following verses: "My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is" (Rev. 22:12). This is a word to the church (see v. 16). "Each will receive his own reward according to his own labor" (1 Cor. 3:  ."Whatever you do, work from the soul as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as recompense....For he who does unrighteously will receive what he unrighteously did" (Col. 3:23-25). "Now to the one who works, his wages are not accounted according to grace, but according to what is due" (Rom. 4:4). I can quote many other verses, but these few are sufficient to prove to us that reward does not come freely. According to the teaching of the Bible, we can see that reward is awarded according to the good works of the believers. Whether it be as small as a cup of cold water (Matt. 10:42), or as hidden as a counsel of the heart (1 Cor. 4:5), or a humble service (Mark 10:43), or a suffering for the Lord (Luke 6:22), all these are opportunities for reward. Hence, according to the Bible, what is set before man is two goals. While we were sinners, our goal was to be saved. After we are saved and have become believers, our goal is to receive the reward. Salvation is prepared for the Sinners.Reward is prepared for the Believers.A man should first receive salvation and then seek after the reward. The perishing ones need salvation. The saved ones need the reward. After reading 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 and Philippians 3:12-14, we see that some believers will not receive the reward. In those two passages, Paul was speaking of the question of reward rather than of salvation. Paul knew very well that he was saved. In his Epistles, he often expressed that he was a saved person, but in these two passages, he showed us what he was pursuing after he was saved. He was pursuing after the reward. At that time, he could not say for sure yet that he would receive the reward. He was still seeking after it. A sinner should seek for salvation, while a believer should seek for reward. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 1:27pm On May 20, 2017 |
An2elect2:Nice one! My greatest shock is how he or anyone else can argue salvation can be lost from Philippians 3! It is so anti-work (for salvation ). 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 2:21pm On May 20, 2017 |
5solas:They just can't see who is behind the scene...or have seen but pride would not let them submit to the truth. How can Salvation be lost when the condition for remaining saved is God's to fulfil! Anyway, so were we until God had mercy on us and showed us these things and gave us new hearts to accept them!!! 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by KingEbukasBlog(m): 3:40pm On May 20, 2017 |
An2elect2: Why the obsession with freewill and predestination ? Where do you actually stand ? 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 7:19pm On May 20, 2017 |
KingEbukasBlog:Obsessed...Why not? Free will is the heretical false gospel being peddled by everyone in our time. It stands in direct opposition to the gospel of grace and denies the Sovereignty of God. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by KingEbukasBlog(m): 7:27pm On May 20, 2017 |
An2elect2: So you saying people are predestined for hell ? If yes , provide bible verses to support that . 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 7:30pm On May 20, 2017 |
KingEbukasBlog:You can go through the thread. So far, that has been answered. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 10:26pm On May 20, 2017 |
An2elect2:So true! Which calls for patience and prayers. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 6:50am On May 21, 2017 |
KingEbukasBlog: 'Freewill ' is the most subtle lie . 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 6:53am On May 21, 2017 |
KingEbukasBlog: Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Nobody: 5:02pm On May 27, 2017 |
An2elect2: None on their own effort made the ransom provision available nor are any perfect. Granting the those who try to be faithful to God eternal life is a gift no one deserves. However, God gave it to those who exercise faith in Him. Not just everyone. Lol the contradiction again. "Eternal life is a gift but you have to work for it too" No need for long argument. You don't believe it's a gift but a reward. You are just not stupid to bluntly say it. Still yet, any objective person can see what you implying. No one works for a gift. Imagine after working my life out to earn a monthly pay and it's termed a gift not a reward on point of reception. Doesn't make sense because that would mean I don't deserve the pay in spite of my work. For it to be a gift, then I can't work for it but would get it on a platter.[/quote] For sure, you cannot on your own work and earn salvation. You are a sinner for Gods sake, no matter how you try, you will keep falling. However, God sees your effort, and grants you salvation cos He knows you fall cos you are dust. But if you sin willfully, He wont give you the reward He promises to those who endeavor to serve Him. Read Heb 10:26 As to say whether salvation could be called a reward see Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12; Rev 11:18: "But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Freewillers cannot see eternal life as a gift. If they do they will have to accept the doctrine of predestination and election which they hate. So I understand why you have to "twist" the truth to make eternal a "gift and a reward". Even when I showed you that it wasn't Eternal life Paul was pummeling his body for? And also showed you that Paul did nothing without God's grace working in him? You still think God's grace isn't sufficient but a special effort from Paul. Well it's not that I've not provided any point against that it is that you don't see eternal life as a gift. Because if you did you would not interpret a verse that is not talking of eternal life against one that plainly spells it out. Paul himself says he pummel himself and leads it as a slave. Seriously, that does not entail effort? You ve given some scriptures quite alright, and I appreciate that. but the way you interpret it contradicts other parts of the scripture. That isnt the way to get a bible's message. For example, if we are to agree with your position, and someone reads Rev 11:18 and the other scriptures I have above, how will we HONESTLY run away from that obvious truth where salvation is termed a reward? Can't you see the awkward position your conclusion lives us? My position took the scriptures you quoted into consideration and brings a reasonable conclusion. It is a gift cos you just cant live perfectly to earn eternal life nor did any of us made provision for the ransom. Of course, there would be no ransom if we dont sin. However, God gives that gift to those who at least make effort to serve Him, those who exercise faith. Gift could be giving even when you did some work. We read: Eccl 3:12, 13 I have concluded that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during their life, 13 also that everyone should eat and drink and find enjoyment for all his hard work. It is the gift of God". Still Eccl 5:19. Again, at Daniel 2:6 the scriptures associated gifts with rewards. Do you see that Daniel did something before he was giving a gift by the king in that chapter? At times you gain a gift for something you did just like in the case of Daniel. For someone who believes salvation or eternal life is a reward, I don't see you interpreting that another way. Of course the scriptures is clear as to God rewarding your efforts, we read: Col 3:24 "for you know that it is from Jehovah you will receive the inheritance as a reward. Slave for the Master, Christ" Read more about the use of reward here 2Sam 22:21; Prov 13:13; Psalm 58:11; heb 11;26; matt 5:12 Ya you obeyed from that stony, wicked and deceitful heart. It was really an effort! I dont get you, provide references, lets know where u are coming from. Ya Bible says Sin cannot have dominion over believers anymore because they are under grace, but I forgot for freewillism to have its way, the believer must not think he is no more a slave of sin and now a slave of righteousness but he must see none as his master. First, none of the example I gave above chose to leave, Paul was the one recommending there eviction. They were called, but lost it cos of there conduct, that is the point am making. THAT WHEN CALLED, YOU CAN LOOSE THE CALL THRU YOUR CONDUCT. Your comment above seem to support that. You said an enemy trying to plant. That isnt plausible cos these people were called by the Lord. Why call someone an enemy was implanting? Or who is to blame? one who predestined an enemy, called the children of the enemy who cant loose the crown, and later, when he lost the crown you accuse the one you created enemy? I still do not think that your position as to the effect that these people appeared to be called is correct. They were called and in fact were members of the church to which Paul wrote to. 1Cor 1:1,2 shows that Paul was writing to those called. He even said that these people were called brothers (1cor 5:11). So, we see the bible's view. Another example is that of Hymmaneous and Philectus. The bible says that they "deviated from the truth". Which means they were previously in the truth. Lending support to the fact that they lost their call after some time cos of there conduct. At Rev 2:15, 16 we cannot say that it wasnt those called that is being addressed there, for Jesus told them to repent. Now if they CHOSE not to repent, what will happen? So there salvation is dependent on who; there repenting or Jesus who told them to repent? "Isn't Salvation a reward" Are you quoting me or making your own statement. I cant see how that replies my comment. Exactly! God can't be the one working inside of us both to will and to do but He is just a standby supplying us power occasionally. At least we agree on that. No. none of the scriptures need to be removed. They are not getting in the way of free will, the problem is when some misunderstand some verses. Almost every writeup as large as the bible can end up as such when debated. Very consistent. "Eternal life is a reward" Am not sure this is your opinion. But it can be referred to as a reward. Its scriptural. How do we arrive at all these wrong conclusions? Simple. I ve answered that issue of reward and gift. We can let the bible tell us how it uses those terms. Salvation is a gift, but it isnt automatic. You must show appreciation before it is given you. This entails effort on your part. Without such, it is taken away from you. Heb 10:28,29. Gal 5:7-10 You were running well. Who hindered you from continuing to obey the truth? 8 This sort of persuasion does not come from the One calling you. 9 A little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough. 10 I am confident that you who are in union with the Lord will not come to think otherwise; but the one who is causing you trouble, whoever he may be, will receive the judgment he deserves So if care is not taken, one who is called could be deceived from the course he was called. See also 2cor 11:2-4 |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:42am On May 28, 2017 |
Salvation is a reward- JMAN05, spokesman for all freewillers on this thread. A big thumbs down!!! 2 Likes |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 11:00am On May 30, 2017 |
Chapter 2 Statement of the Doctrine In the Westminster Confession, which sets forth the beliefs of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches and which is the most perfect expression of the Reformed Faith, we read: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." And further, "Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions." This doctrine of Predestination represents the purpose of God as absolute and unconditional, independent of the whole finite creation, and as originating solely in the eternal counsel of His will. God is seen as the great and mighty King who has appointed the course of nature and who directs the course of history even down to its minutest details. His decree is eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign. It extends not merely to the course of the physical world but to every event in human history from the creation to the judgment, and includes all the activities of saints and angels in heaven and of reprobates and demons in hell. It embraces the whole scope of creaturely existence, through time and eternity, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations. Everything outside of God Himself is included in this all-embracing decree, and that very naturally since all other beings owe their existence and continuance in existence to His creative and sustaining power. It provides a providential control under which all things are hastening to the end of God's determining; and the goal is, "One far-off divine event Toward which the whole creation moves. Since the finite creation through its whole range exists as a medium through which God manifests His glory, and since it is absolutely dependent on Him, it of itself could originate no conditions which would limit or defeat the manifestation of that glory. From all eternity God has purposed to do just exactly what He is doing. He is the sovereign Ruler of the universe and "does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou?" Daniel 4:35. Since the universe had its origin in God and depends on Him for its continued existence it must be, in all its parts and at all times, subject to His control so that nothing can come to pass contrary to what He expressly decrees or permits. Thus the eternal purpose is represented as an act of sovereign predestination or foreordination, and unconditioned by any subsequent fact or change in time. Hence it is represented as being the basis of the divine foreknowledge of all future events, and not conditioned by that foreknowledge or by anything originated by the events themselves. The Reformed theologians logically and consistently applied to the spheres of creation and providence those great principles which were later set forth in the Westminster Standards. They saw the hand of God in every event in all the history of mankind and in all the workings of physical nature so that the world was the complete realization in time of the eternal ideal. The world as a whole and in all its parts and movements and changes was brought into a unity by the governing, all-pervading, all-harmonizing activity of the divine will, and its purpose was to manifest the divine glory. While their conception was that of a divine ordering of the whole course of history to the veriest detail, they were especially concerned with its relation to man's salvation. Calvin, the brilliant and systematic theologian of the Reformation, put the matter thus: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." [ Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, sec. 5.] That Luther was as zealous for absolute predestination as was Calvin is shown in his commentary on Romans, where he wrote: "All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." And Melanchthon, his close friend and fellow-laborer, says: "All things turn out according to divine predestination; not only the works we do outwardly, but even the thoughts we think inwardly"; and again, "There is no such thing as chance, or fortune; nor is there a readier way to gain the fear of God, and to put our whole trust in Him, than to be thoroughly versed in the doctrine of Predestination." "Order is heaven's first law." From the divine viewpoint there is unbroken order and progress from the first beginnings of the creation to the end of the world and the ushering in of the kingdom of heaven in all its glory. The divine purpose and plan is nowhere defeated nor interrupted; that which in many cases appears to us to be defeat is not really such but only appears to be, because our finite and imperfect nature does not permit us to see all the parts in the whole nor the whole in all its parts. If at one glance we could take in "the mighty spectacle of the natural world and the complex drama of human history," we should see the world as one harmonious unit manifesting the glorious perfections of God. "Though the world seems to run at random," says Bishop, "and affairs to be huddled together in blind confusion and rude disorder, yet, God sees and knows the concatenation of all causes and effects, and so governs them that He makes a perfect harmony out of all those seeming jarrings and discords. It is most necessary that we should have our hearts well established in the firm and unwavering belief of this truth, that whatever comes to pass, be it good or evil, we may look up to the hand and disposal of all, to God. In respect of God, there is nothing casual nor contingent in the world. If a master should send a servant to a certain place and command him to stay there till such a time, and, presently after, should send another servant to the same place, the meeting of these two is wholly casual in respect to themselves, but ordained and foreseen by the master who sent them. They fall out unexpectedly as to us, but not so as to God. He foresees and He appoints all the vicissitudes of things." [Quoted by Toplady in Preface to Zanchius' Predestination.] The psalmist exclaimed, "O Jehovah our Lord, How excellent is thy name in all the earth!" And the writer of Ecclesiastes says, "He hath made everything beautiful in its time." In the vision which the prophet Isaiah saw, the seraphim sang, "Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah of hosts: The whole earth is full of His glory." When seen from this divine view-point every event in the course of human affairs in all ages and in all nations has, no matter how insignificant it may appear to us, its exact place in the development of the eternal plan. It has relations with preceding causes and exerts an ever widening influence through its effects so that it is related to the whole system of things and has its individual part in maintaining the perfect equilibrium of this world-order. Many instances might be given to show that events of the greatest importance have often depended upon what at the time appeared to be the most fortuitious and trivial events. The inter-relation and connection of events is such that if one of these were to be omitted or modified, all that follows soon would be modified or prevented. Hence the certainty that the divine administration rests on the foreordination of God extending to all events both great and small. And, strictly speaking, no event is really small; each one has its exact place in the divine plan, and some are only relatively greater than others. The course of history, then, is infinitely complex, yet a unit in the sight of God. This truth, together with the reason for it, is very beautifully summed up in the Shorter Catechism which states that, "The decrees of God are, His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass." Dr. Abraham Kuyper, of Holland, who is recognized as one of the outstanding Calvinistic theologians in recent years, has given us some valuable thought in the following paragraph: "The determination of the existence of all things to be created, or what is to be camellia or buttercup, nightingale or crow, hart or swine, and equally among men, the determination of our own persons, whether one is to be born as boy or girl, rich or poor, dull or clever, white or colored or even as Abel and Cain, is the most tremendous predestination conceivable in heaven or on earth; and still we see it taking place before our eyes every day, and we ourselves are subject to it in our entire personality; our entire existence, our very nature, our position in life being entirely dependent on it. This allembracing predestination, the Calvinist places, not in the hands of man, and still less in the hand of blind natural force, but in the hand of Almighty God, sovereign Creator and Possessor of heaven and earth; and it is in the figure of the potter and the clay that Scripture has from the time of the prophets expounded to us this all-dominating election. Election in creation, election in providence, and so election also to eternal life; election in the realm of grace as well as in the realm of nature." [Lectures on Calvinism, p. 272.] We can have no adequate appreciation of this world-order until we see it as one mighty system through which God is working out His plans. Calvin's clear and consistent theism gave him a keen sense of the infinite majesty of the Almighty Person in whose hands all things lay, and made him a very pronounced predestinarian. In this doctrine of the unconditional and eternal purpose of the omniscient and omnipotent God, he found the program of the history of the fall and redemption of the human race. He ventured boldly but reverently upon the brink of that abyss of speculation where all human knowledge is lost in mystery and adoration. The Reformed Faith, then, offers us a great God who is really the sovereign Ruler of the Universe. "Its grand principle," says Bayne, "is the contemplation of the universe of God revealed in Christ. In all places, in all times, from eternity to eternity, Calvinism sees God." Our age, with its emphasis on democracy, doesn't like this view, and perhaps no other age liked it less. The tendency today is to exalt man and to give God only a very limited part in the affairs of the world. As Dr. A. A. Hodge has said, "The new theology, asserting the narrowness of the old, is discarding the foreordination of Jehovah as a worn-out figment of the schools, discredited by the advanced culture of today. This is not the first time that the owls, mistaking the shadow of a passing eclipse for their native night, have prematurely hooted at the eagles, convinced that what is invisible to them cannot possibly exist." [Popular Lectures on Theological Themes, p. 158.] This, in general, is the broad conception of predestination as it has been held by the great theologians of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Foreordination is explicitly stated in Scripture. Acts 4:27, 28: For of a truth in this city against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel foreordained to come to pass. Ephesians 1:5: Having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:11: In whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His will. Romans 8:29, 30: For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. 1 Corinthians 2:7: But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory. Acts 2:23: Him (Jesus) being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay. Acts 13:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Ephesians 2:10: For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them. Romans 9:23: That He might make known the riches of His glory upon the vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them. Cc 5Solas 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 11:07am On May 30, 2017 |
Will come back to comment 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Scholar8200(m): 4:10pm On May 30, 2017 |
An2elect2: Kindly indulge this curiosity: Would you consider yourself one of those predestined to believe? If yes, how did you know?(scriptural basis pls) And how are you sure you wont turn out to be the opposite later? As regards the highlighted, how do we explain the Great commission in the light of predestination? Besides, would those predestined be saved preacher or no preacher? If the latter is true, what purpose was the life-threatening Great Commission? If the former, why would God need man to fulfill His call on the called ones since they were already chosen? And what does the persistent use of, "whosoever will" suggest? Does He mean what He says when He uses that clause? Kindly indicate if this derails your thread and I will take it down. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 7:26pm On May 31, 2017 |
An2elect2:It is good for believers to know what they believe. Is it Roman Catholic or Protestant. These are the dominant school of thoughts.Reformed churches are churches which are Protestant and their belief on predestination is here set out. It is disheartening that most Protestant Churches now teach what is at variance with their creeds.The average Protestant does not know about predestination, even argues against it, holding forth ''freewill'' one of the errors of the Roman Catholic Church which the early reformers proved to be a lie. God ordains all that come to pass (Rom. 13:1,2) evil rulers or good rulers,good or evil.And for all that, he is not responsible for the sin of the wicked. We don't accuse God to be responsible for the sins of those who crucified Christ even though He ordained the crucifixion . (Acts 2 )
Acts 4
Amen! Nothing happens by chance! God not only has control over man , He has control over animals, plants and non-living things-rains,floods,volcanoes, earthquakes,e.t.c He determined before time what shall be and how far there are to extend. Amos 3 6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?Job 38
Amen!!!!!!! Have you been deceived to overlook predestination whenever/wherever you see it in the Bible? Reconsider it. Is predestination unfair? What about grace? Any interpretation of the Bible (especially as it pertains to salvation) that does not take into account the fact that there is predestination is totally flawed. Thanks An2elect2 for energizing me. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:30pm On May 31, 2017 |
5solas: Thank you 5Solas. Glory to our Lord and Sovereign God!!! Great comment. Well done!  Do protestants ever check history? How can they be happy to associate with reformed men like Martin Luther and not consider what they preached. 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by 5solas(m): 11:34pm On May 31, 2017 |
An2elect2: Thanks. As you have observed most Protestants do not know what Luther and the other reformers preached. How I wish most know for example that Luther took more than 300 pages to show that ''freewill'' does not exist in ''The Bondage of the Will''. During Luther's time the false doctrine that salvation can be lost (Arminianism) was not in existence. Most people assume Calvinism (the view that salvation cannot be lost) is more recent, but how wrong they are! |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 11:17am On Jun 01, 2017 |
5solas:Lol it looks recent because we have been deep in error for a long long time. Now the truth looks like a lie! 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 9:01pm On Jun 07, 2017 |
Will update by posting chapter 3 this week and comment too |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 12:13pm On Jun 11, 2017 |
Chapter 3 God Has a Plan It is unthinkable that a God of infinite wisdom and power would create a world without a definite plan for that world. And because God is thus infinite His plan must extend to every detail of the world's existence. If we could see the world in all its relations, past, present, and future, we would see that it is following a predetermined course with exact precision. Among created things we may search where we will, as far as the microscope and the telescope will enable the eye to see, we find organization everywhere. Large forms resolve themselves into parts, and these parts in their turn are but organized of other parts down as far as we can see into infinity. [b]Even man, who is but the creature of a day and subject to all kinds of errors, develops a plan before he acts; and a man who acts without design or purpose is accounted foolish. Before we make a trip or undertake a piece of work all of us set our goal and then work to attain that goal in so far as we are able. Regardless of how some people may oppose Predestination in theory, all of us in our every-day lives are practical predestinarians. As E. W. Smith says, a wise man "first determines upon the end he desires to attain, and then upon the best means of attaining it. Before the architect begins his edifice, he makes his drawings and forms his plans, even to the minutest details of construction. In the architect's brain the building stands complete in all its parts before a stone is laid. So with the merchant, the lawyer, the farmer, and all rational and intelligent men.[/b] Their activity is along the line of previously formed purposes, the fulfillment, so far as their finite capacities will allow, Of preconceived plans." [The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 159.] The larger our enterprise is, the more important it is that we shall have a plan; otherwise all our work ends in failure. One would be considered mentally deranged who undertook to build a ship, or a railroad, or to govern a nation without a plan. We are told that before Napoleon began the invasion of Russia he had a plan worked out in detail, showing what line of march each division of his army was to follow, where it was to be at a certain time, what equipment and provisions it was to have, etc. Whatever was wanting in that plan was due to the limitations of human power and wisdom. Had Napoleon's foresight been perfect and his control of events absolute, his plan or we may say, his foreordination would have extended to every of every soldier who made that march. And if this is true of man, how much more is it true of God! "A universe without decrees," says A. J. Gordon. "would be as irrational and appalling as would be an express train driving on in the darkness without headlight or engineer, and with no certainty that the next moment it might not plunge into the abyss." We cannot conceive of God bringing into existence a universe without a plan which would extend to all that would be done in that universe. As the Scriptures teach that God's providential control extends to all events, even the most minute, they thereby teach that His plan is equally comprehensive. It is one of His perfections that He has the best possible plan, and that He conducts the course of history to its appointed end. And to admit that He has a plan which He carries out is to admit Predestination. "God's plan is shown in its effectuation to be one," says Dabney. "Cause is linked with effect, and what was effect becomes cause; the influences of events on events interlace with each other, and descend in widening streams to subsequent events; so that the whole complex result is through every part. As astronomers suppose that the removal of one planet from our system would modify more or less the balance and orbits of all the rest, so the failure of one event in this plan would derange the whole, directly or indirectly." [Theology, p. 214.] If God had not foreordained the course of events but waited until some undetermined condition was or was not fulfilled, His decrees could be neither eternal nor immutable. We know, however, that He is incapable of mistake, and that He cannot be surprised by any unforeseen inconveniences. His kingdom is in the heavens and He rules over all. His plan must, therefore, include every event in the entire sweep of history. That even the small events have their place in this plan. and that they must be as they are, is easily seen. All of us know of certain "chance happenings" which have actually changed the course of our lives. The effects of these extend throughout all succeeding history in ever-widening influences, causing other "chance happenings." It is said that the quacking of some geese once saved Rome. Whether historically true or not it will serve as a good illustration. Had not the geese awakened the guards who gave the alarm and aroused the defending army, Rome would have fallen and the course of history from that time on would have been radically different. Had those geese remained silent who can imagine what empires might have been in existence today, or where the centers of culture might have been? During a battle a bullet misses the general by only an inch. His life is spared, he goes on commanding his troops, wins a decisive victory, and is made the chief ruler of his country for many years, as was the case with George Washington. Yet what a different course history would have taken had the soldier on the other side aimed the slightest trifle higher or lower! The great Chicago fire of 1871, which destroyed more than I half of the city, was started, we are told, when a cow kicked over a lantern. How different would have been the history of Chicago if that one motion had been slightly different! "The control of the greatest must include the control of the less, for not only are great things made up of little things, but history shows how the veriest trifles are continually proving the pivots on which momentous events revolve. The persistence of a spider nerved a despairing man to fresh exertions which shaped a nation's future. The God who predestinated the course of Scotch history must have planned and presided over the movements of that tiny insect that saved Robert Bruce from despair." [The Creed of Presbyterians, p. 160.] Examples of this kind could be multiplied indefinitely. The Pelagian denies that God has a plan; the Arminian says that God has a general but not a specific plan; but the Calvinist says that God has a specific plan which embraces all events in all ages. In recognizing that the eternal God has an eternal plan in which is predetermined every event that comes to pass, the Calvinist simply recognizes that God is God, and frees Him from all human limitations. The Scriptures represent God as a person, like other persons in that His acts are purposeful, but unlike other persons in that He is all-wise in His planning and all-powerful in His performing. They see the universe as the product of His creative power, and as the theater in which are displayed His glorious perfections, and which must in all its form and all its history, down to the least detail, correspond with His purpose in making it. In a very illuminating article on "Predestination," Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, who in the opinion of the present writer has emerged as the outstanding theologian since John Calvin, tells us that the writers of Scripture saw the divine plan as "broad enough to embrace the whole universe of things, and minute enough to concern itself with the smallest details, and actualizing itself with inevitable certainty in every event that comes to pass." "In the infinite wisdom of the Lord of all the earth, each event falls with exact precision into its proper place in this unfolding of His eternal plan; nothing, however small, however strange, occurs without His ordering, or without its peculiar fitness for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory, and accumulation of His praise. This is the Old Testament (as well as the New Testament) philosophy of the universe a world-view which attains concrete unity in an absolute decree, or purpose, or plan of which all that comes to pass is the development in time." [Biblical Doctrines, pp. 13, 22.] The very essence of consistent theism is that God would have an exact plan for the world, would foreknow the actions of all the creatures He proposed to create, and through His all-inclusive providence would control the whole system. If He fore-ordained only certain isolated events, confusion both in the natural-world and in human affairs would be introduced into the system and He would need to be constantly developing new plans to accomplish what be desired. His government of the world then would be a capricious patch work of new expedients He would at best govern only in a general way, and would be ignorant of much of the future. But no one with proper ideas of God believes that He has to change His mind every few days to make room for unexpected happenings which were not included in His original plan. If the perfection of the divine plan be denied, no consistent stopping place will be found short of atheism. In the first place there was no necessity that God should create at all. He acted with perfect freedom when He brought this world into existence. When He did choose to create there was before Him an infinite number of possible plans. But as a matter of fact we find that He chose this particular one in which we now are. And since He knew perfectly every event of every kind which would be involved in this particular world-order, He very obviously predetermined every event which would happen when He chose this plan. His choice of the plan, or His making certain that the creation should be on this order, we call His foreordination or His predestination. Even the sinful acts of men are included in this plan. They are foreseen, permitted, and have their exact place. They are controlled and overruled for the divine glory. The crucifixion of Christ, which is admittedly the worst crime in all human history, had, we are expressly told, its exact and necessary place in the plan (Acts 2:23; 4:28). This particular manner of redemption is not an expedient to which God was driven after being defeated and disappointed by the fall of man. Rather it is "according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord," Ephesians 3:11 . Peter tells us that Christ as a sacrifice for sin was "foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world," 1 Peter 1:20. Believers were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" (or from eternity), Ephesians 1:4. We are saved not by our own temporary works, "but according to His purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal," 2 Timothy 1:9. And if the crucifixion of Christ, or His offering up Himself as a sacrifice for sin, was in the eternal plan, then plainly the fall of Adam and all other sins which made that sacrifice necessary were in the plan, no matter how undesirable a part of that plan they may have been. History in all its details, even the most minute, is but the unfolding of the eternal purposes of God. His decrees are not successively formed as the emergency arises, but are all parts of one all-comprehending plan, and we should never think of Him suddenly evolving a plan or doing something which He had not thought of before. The fact that the Scriptures often speak of one purpose of God as dependent on the outcome of another or on the actions of men, is no objection against this doctrine. The Scriptures are written in the every-day language of men, and they often describe an act or a thing as it appears to be, rather than as it really is. The Bible speaks of "the four corners of the earth," Isaiah 11:12, and of "the foundations of the earth," Psalm 104:5; yet no one understands this to mean that the earth is square, or that it actually rests upon a foundation. We speak of the sun rising and setting, yet we know that it is not the motion of the sun but that of the earth as it turns over on its axis which causes this phenomenon. Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of God repenting, for instance, no one with proper ideas of God understands it to mean that He sees He has pursued a wrong course and changes His mind. It simply means that His action as seen from the human view-point appears to be like that of a man who repents. In other places the Scriptures speak of the hands, or arms, or eyes of God. These are what are known as "anthropomorphisms," instances in which God is referred to as if He were a man. When the word "repent," for instance, is used in its strict sense God is said never to repent: "God is not a man, that He should lie, Neither the son of man, that lie should repent." Numbers 23:19; and again, "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent; for He is not a man, that He should repent," 1 Samuel 15:29. The contemplation of this great plan must redound to the praise of the unsearchable wisdom and illimitable power of Him who devised and executes it. And what can give the Christian more satisfaction and joy than to know that the whole course of the world is ordered with reference to the establishment of the Kingdom of heaven and the manifestation of the Divine glory; and that he is one of the objects upon which infinite love and mercy is to be lavished? SCRIPTURE PROOF 1. God's plan is eternal: 2 Timothy 1:9: (It is God) who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal. Psalm 33:11: The counsel of Jehovah standeth fast for ever, The thoughts of His heart to all generations. Isaiah 37:26: Hast thou not heard how I have done it long ago, and formed it of ancient times? Isaiah 46:9, 10: I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. 2 Thessalonians 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Matthew 25:34: Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:20: (Christ) who (as a sacrifice for sin) was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world. Jeremiah 31:3: Jehovah appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love. Acts 15:18: Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Psalm 139:16: Thine eves did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 12:27pm On Jun 11, 2017 |
...cont 2. God's plan is unchangeable: James 1:17: Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning. Isaiah 14:24: Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely, as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand. Isaiah 46:10, 11: My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure: . . . yea, I have spoken, and I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed I will also do it. Numbers 23:19: God is not a man, that He should lie, Neither the son of man, that He should repent; Hath He said, and shall He not do it; Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make It good? Malachi 3:6: I, Jehovah, change not; therefore, ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. 3. The divine plan includes the future acts of men: Daniel 2:28: But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and He hath made known to the King Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. John 6:64: For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray Him. Matthew 20:18, 19: Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests and scribes; and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him unto the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify ; and the third day He shall be raised up. (All the Scripture prophecies which are predictions of future events come under this heading. See especially: Micah 5:2; Cp. with Matthew 2:5, 6 and Luke 2:1-7; Psalm 22:18, Cp. John 19:24; Psalm 69:21, Cp. John 19:29; Zechariah 12:10, Cp. John 19:37; Mark 14:30; Zechariah 11:12, 13 , Cp. Matthew 27:9, 10; Psalm 34:19, 20, Cp. John 19:33, 36.) 4. The divine plan Includes the fortuitous events or chance happenings: Proverbs 16:33: The lot is cast Into the lap; But the whole disposing thereof Is of Jehovah. Jonah 1:7: So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah. Acts 1:24, 26: And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show of these two the one whom thou has chosen . . . And they cast lots for them; and the lot fell on Matthias. Job 36:32: He covereth His hands with the lightning, And giveth it a charge that it strike the mark. 1 Kings 22:28, 34: And Micaiah said, If thou (Ahab) return at all in peace, Jehovah hath not spoken by me . . . And a certain man drew his bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the armor. Job 5:6: For affliction cometh not forth from the dust; Neither doth trouble spring out of the ground. Mark 14:30: And Jesus said unto him (Peter), Verily I say unto thee, that thou, today, even this night. before the cock crow twice shall deny me thrice. (Cp. Genesis 37:28 and 45:5; Cp. 1 Samuel 9:15,16 and 9:5-10.) 5. Some events are recorded as fixed or inevitably certain: Luke 22:22: For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined; but woe unto that man through whom He is betrayed. John 8:20: These words spake He in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no man took Him; because His hour was not yet come. Matthew 24:36: But of that day and hour (the end of the world) knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. Genesis 41:32: And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharoah, it is because the thing is established of God, and He will shortly bring it to pass. Habakkuk 2:3: For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteneth toward the end, and shall not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay. Luke 21:24: And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Jeremiah 15:2: And it shall come to pass when they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them. Thus saith Jehovah: Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for famine, to the famine; and such as are for captivity, to captivity. Job 14:5: Seeing that his days are determined, And the number of his months is with thee, And thou has appointed bounds that he cannot pass. Jeremiah 27:7: And all nations shall serve him (Nebuchadnezzar), and his son, and his son's son, until the time of his own land come; and then many nations and great kings shall make him their bondman. 6. Even the sinful acts of men are included in the plan and are overruled for good. Genesis 50:20: As for you, ye meant evil against me (Joseph), but God meant it for good. Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I am Jehovah that doeth all these things. Amos 3:6: Shall evil befall a city and Jehovah hath not done it? Acts 3:18: The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled. Matthew 21:42: The stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner. Romans 8:28: To them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to His purpose. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Nobody: 1:37pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
wow didn't know you have read the Book another powerful book like that is God's sovereignty by AW pink you will like it because it shows that God is in control over ALL THINGS, EVEN THE WICKED VICE OF MEN are you Presbyterian? |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by An2elect2(f): 1:43pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
Ferisidowu:Thank you for stopping by. Yes true!!! I've not read every bit of it but I have come to that understanding by God's grace that He is in charge of everything and man still responsible for his sins. I should be a Presbyterian but where I live there is none for now. |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Nobody: 1:54pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
An2elect2: one thing is.... I have found comfort in the reforned doctrines they are true and shows that God is in control ... it gives me joy know that God is in control of everything... even all of Satans doing has decreed.... it feels good to know that God will not be mocked since all our good and evil were decreed... (I usually don't discuss this cos lot of Christians don't understand.. it even beyond what we can teach ,.... it God that makes someone understand) it feels good to know that saving faith of produced God for the ELECT and it's different from what modern SIMPLE BELIEVISM teach I thank God he allowed me know all of this... bro, it's a great privilege That we know these things... a lot of people don't understand these things... some even give more priority to Satan more than God A book I will never forget in my life is FAITH by A W pink 1 Like |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Nobody: 1:58pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
early theologians even wrote concerning bondage of free will.... a lot of modern Christians and even pastors give much priority to free will |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Ubenedictus(m): 2:56pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
An2elect2:lol I thought you wanted to go back to as far as the entire history of the church and interact with the evidence... but ofcus I forgot that for Protestants Christian history began in the 15 th century... that isn't even half of the Christian history. see where ur chapter began The purpose of this book is not to set forth a new system of theological thought, but to give a re-statement to that great system which is known as the Reformed Faith or Calvinism, and to show that this is beyond all doubt the teaching of the Bible and of reason. The doctrine of Predestination receives comparatively little attention in our day and it is very imperfectly understood even by those who are supposed to hold it most loyally. It is a doctrine, however, which is contained in the creeds of most evangelical churches and which has had a remarkable influence both in Church and State. The official standards of the various branches of the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches in Europe and America are thoroughly Calvinistic. The Baptist and Congregational Churches, although they have no formulated creeds, have in the main been Calvinistic if we may judge from the writings and teachings of their representative theologians. The great free church of Holland and almost all the churc |
| Re: Historical Facts! Freewillism Existed For Centuries As A Heresy. by Ubenedictus(m): 3:04pm On Jan 10, 2018 |
5solas:a serious Calvinist |
Is this reasonable to you that God does not know the destinies of men? (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (Reply)
Churches Preaching Prosperity May Soon Attract Tax In Ghana / RCCG 64th Annual Convention : Amen; Aug 1-7 / Pastor Chris: Christ In You The Hope Of Glory!
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