Guys, guys, we are in the 21st century!! My thing with religion is, I love Christ, God and I love to read the Bible, and I always will, regardless of what church I go or don't go to or if I go to any church at all - its all on the inside, from the heart.

Now, as a Christian, loving and respecting other people, regardless of their creed, colour, religion, orientation or whATEVER other difference u can think of should come naturally. Whilst we are here on earth, TODAY, RIGHT NOW, IN THE PRESENT, what are we doing? Are we loving and respecting one another? Or are we neglecting to do that and instead fantasizing, very selfishly I might add, about the richness of our individual reward from God for 'serving' Him.

There are 2 points here. (1) How do you serve God? Is it
(A) by following, blindly, ancient rules and traditions observed centuries ago in Bible times + going to Church every Sunday? Or is it (B) by thinking like JESUS would and applying kindness, virtue e.t.c in your everyday interaction with others.

(2) If you answered (A) to the above question, you are missing the point big time.....If you truly love God, you will know that there is no one particular way to show this love, but several ways, big and small. Furthermore, Christianity is NOT some kind of transaction where you do X (whatever you might imagine that may be) and GOD gives you Y (a guaranteed place in heaven ) in return. No. GOD is way more intelligent than that - he sees into the heart of every man - WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART WHEN YOU ASK SUCH A QUESTION (Can non-Christians go to heaven?). We are all children of God.......let's try to remember that.

nferyn:

When someone lives a just life and does good all through his or her life, but does not accept Jesus in his heart, he will go to hell.
Someone who commits unspeakable atrocities, but accepts Jesus on the other hand will go to heaven?

This is wicked.

I did not say that Hitler did go to heaven, and Mother Theresa did not go to heaven, i said that it's possible if Hitler received Christ before he died that he would go to heaven and if Mother Theresa didn't then she wouldn't.

Also, my point of this is, no matter what you do, we are all, in essence, evil people. If you lied one time, and that is the only bad thing you do your entire life, but you do not receive Christ before you died, you would go to hell. This is because God is perfect. He cannot be around imperfectness. But, he loves us so freaking much, that he sent his son, to die for us. nyferyn, if you were the only person to ever have sinned, God would have still sent his son to die for you. because he loves you and wants you to be with him that much. No One and i mean  absolutely no one  deserves to go to heaven. but those who recognize who Jesus is, and receive him, can... not because they did anything. because you cannot do anything good enough to get into heaven. but rather, because they received Jesus Christ.

I think we should let God defend Himself when it comes to issues of whether one will go to hell or not. That's why He came up with the whole idea, anyway. How would you rank my greatgrandpops who lived in the days where there were no clothes and really, a tree was considered sacred? I wonder....

Ashbaby:

I think we should let God defend Himself when it comes to issues of whether one will go to hell or not. That's why He came up with the whole idea, anyway. How would you rank my greatgrandpops who lived in the days where there were no clothes and really, a tree was considered sacred? I wonder....

I don't 'rank' neither does anyone else, except God of course. I just simply know, that he/she who is not perfect and has not received Jesus into their heart will not go to Heaven. Only God truly knows if your greatgrandpops knew Jesus. And if he did... well i will see him in heaven.

@ AbbeyMarie
You put a lot of faith in a theory of salvation that was developed 4th century in a political struggle between the priests Arius and Athanasius. It was Emperor Constantine himself that pushed for the deification of Jesus because it suited his political needs better

nferyn:

When someone lives a just life and does good all through his or her life, but does not accept Jesus in his heart, he will go to hell.
Someone who commits unspeakable atrocities, but accepts Jesus on the other hand will go to heaven?

This is wicked.

This is not wicked. You misunderstand. You cannot accept the Lord Jesus sincerely into your heart and continue in your atrocities. The Holy Spirit will help you live a life of righteousness, a life of purity which includes good works. Accepting Jesus, a life of righteousness and good works will get you to heaven, not "good works" alone.

but if you honestly repent on your death bed, even after having commited the most atrocious crimes against humanity, you will go to heaven. This is wicked.

nferyn:

but if you honestly repent on your death bed, even after having commited the most atrocious crimes against humanity, you will go to heaven. This is wicked.

Are you qualified to judge that which is wicked or not?

nicetohave:

Are you qualified to judge that which is wicked or not?

Why would I be less qualified than anyone else?

nferyn:

but if you honestly repent on your death bed, even after having commited the most atrocious crimes against humanity, you will go to heaven. This is wicked.

This is MERCY.

alheri:

This is MERCY.

And an honest person who tried to do good all his life, but does not believe will go to hell for all eternity. What do you call that?

nferyn:

Why would I be less qualified than anyone else?

no, youre no more unqualified than anyone else

nferyn:

And an honest person who tried to do good all his life, but does not believe will go to hell for all eternity. What do you call that?

It is called foolishness, because what exactly do you call good works? no man can be justified before God by the works of the flesh because all our righteousness are as filthy rags before him, a condemned man cannot ransom himself except with his life, so if you refuse the offer of redemption then the price is to pay yourself, etenal death!

nicetohave:

It is called foolishness, because what exactly do you call good works? no man can be justified before God by the works of the flesh because all our righteousness are as filthy rags before him, a condemned man cannot ransom himself except with his life, so if you refuse the offer of redemption then the price is to pay yourself, etenal death!

If that is the case, than your God is pure evil. By no stretch of the imagination can an all good God do such a thing.

Then the judiciary is also evil for condemning a criminal.

God cannot be evil nferyn,that is a title reserved for the fallen angel, lucifer. My God is a righteous God and no evil or impurity can be seen in Him. He gives/showeth mercy to whoever asks of Him. Whether murderer or rapist. God sees the heart and will forgive whoever repents of his/her evil ways. If you call that evil, if you call that wicked, that of cause is your opinion. You can continue to stretch your imagination still doesnt change the fact that God is GOD and God was never and will never be evil.

You are forgetting Proverbs
12:2 Good people obtain favor from the LORD, but he condemns those who devise wicked schemes.
17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent the LORD detests them both.

That's also true. He brings judgement for the sins we have made not because he is evil, but because HE IS JUST.

Vey true chrisd, thank you for those verses. God punishes evil but will forgive if you repent sincerely. God is sooo far from evil!

@Chrisd, I love that.

layi:

Then the judiciary is also evil for condemning a criminal.

The judiciary would be evil for condemning a criminal if:
* they know beforehand what the criminal is going to do
* they have the power to prevent the criminal from commiting his criminal act
* they chose not to act, thus allowing the criminal to do harm
* they condemned the criminal afterwards, even though thy could have prevented the criminal act in the first place
This is not only evil, it is also wicked
Now apply the same logic to your God

Sometimes we confuse things. It is agreed that God sees the heart, but that does not mean HE will forgive, as is said in Proverbs. That murderer or rapist can be saved but he cannot escape judgement still.

GOD is actually coined from the word Good.

Evil is the absence of good/GOD.

Truth be told, GOD is not the one punishing people..albeit old testament wrtiers of the bible had lil revelation as per the person and work of satan. He is the accuser of the brethren and doer of evil.

GOD's commandments and principles are like an hedge round us. If u break...the serpent would bite. GOd isnt an evil doer. U get evil as a result of ur disobedience..a consequence of ur action...a principle in line without laws of nature.... law of "cause and effect"

Calm down a bit nfern. It is not rules of God, just that a lot of persons misinterpret God's word. Seen a lot of that happening.

chrisd:

Calm down a bit nfern. It is not rules of God, just that a lot of persons misinterpret God's word. Seen a lot of that happening.

I'm calm, don't worry. You cannot possibly maintain that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, while at the same time evil exists on this world. This is just impossible.

The conditions for being a good God, though, have nothing to do with moral goodness, because God is the wrong kind of thing to be described as morally good. Moral goodness is to do with fulfilling one’s duties, acting in the way that one ought to act. God, though, has all authority over Creation; he has no duties; there is no way that he ought to act. To describe God either as morally good or as morally bad is therefore a mistake; God is an amoral being. God’s perfection, then, does not imply moral goodness, and so does not entail that he will prevent evil from occurring.

layi:

GOD is actually coined from the word Good.

Is it, I didn't know. I have not seen any etymological entries indicating that God stems from Good

layi:

Evil is the absence of good/GOD.

Truth be told, GOD is not the one punishing people..albeit old testament wrtiers of the bible had lil revelation as per the person and work of satan. He is the accuser of the brethren and doer of evil.

So God splits himself up to allow evil to exist. Why?

layi:

GOD's commandments and principles are like an hedge round us. If u break...the serpent would bite. GOd isnt an evil doer. U get evil as a result of your disobedience..a consequence of your action...a principle in line without laws of nature.... law of "cause and effect"

Ultimately, evil are the acts that harm others. Are you changing the meaning of the word evil to disobedience?

i saw the topic as "Christians:-can a non Christian go to heaven?"
Im suprised to see u here too Nfery(with ur arguments),I thought u are not a Christian or have u changed ur mind.

God chose to create humankind free, and that evil is the result of our abuse of that freedom. Evil is not God’s fault; it is ours. This defence applies only to moral evil; natural evil does not result from the choices of free agents, and so cannot be justified in this way. Natural evil therefore poses a greater threat to belief in God than moral evil.

A generic response to the problem of evil question its fundamental assumptions. It denies that God is morally good, casting doubt on whether he would prevent evil if he were able to; the second denies that evil exists, casting doubt on whether there is a problem to solve at all.

chrisd:

The conditions for being a good God, though, have nothing to do with moral goodness, because God is the wrong kind of thing to be described as morally good. Moral goodness is to do with fulfilling one’s duties, acting in the way that one ought to act. God, though, has all authority over Creation; he has no duties; there is no way that he ought to act. To describe God either as morally good or as morally bad is therefore a mistake; God is an amoral being. God’s perfection, then, does not imply moral goodness, and so does not entail that he will prevent evil from occurring.

So basically saying that God is good is meaningless. The only goodness we can have knowledge about is moral goodness, the goodness of God is unknowable to us.

Yes, it seems that it is leading that way

chrisd:

God chose to create humankind free, and that evil is the result of our abuse of that freedom. Evil is not God’s fault; it is ours. This defence applies only to moral evil; natural evil does not result from the choices of free agents, and so cannot be justified in this way. Natural evil therefore poses a greater threat to belief in God than moral evil.

What is freedom?
What is use, what is abuse of freedom?
If god is omniscient, he knows that by creating man free, he would willingly introduce moral evil in the world. Where does that leave God?

chrisd:

A generic response to the problem of evil question its fundamental assumptions. It denies that God is morally good, casting doubt on whether he would prevent evil if he were able to; the second denies that evil exists, casting doubt on whether there is a problem to solve at all.

Yes, indeed and your conclusion is?

The argument may succeed in casting some doubt on the supposition that a good God would eliminate all suffering; God's benevolence and his justice may exist in tension.

Perhaps a more robust approach to resolving the problem of natural evil is that which holds that it is necessary for the universe to contain some evil in order for it to contain some good. Good and evil, according to this position, are relative terms, like up and down or past and future; one cannot have one unless one has both. If this is correct, if it is impossible for one to exist without the other, then perhaps God was justified in creating a world containing evil because it was only by doing so that he could create a world containing good.

Even if the previous suggestion is resisted, a similar argument might be proposed, holding that evil is necessary in order for certain types of good to exist. Specifically, the existence of evil allows for goods that oppose evil, opening up possibilities for bravery, for compassion, and for mutual dependence, for example. These higher-order goods could not exist otherwise. A world without suffering would lack such goods as these, and would therefore be inferior.

What you think?

wendytilda:

i saw the topic as "Christians:-can a non Christian go to heaven?"
I'm suprised to see u here too Nfery(with your arguments),I thought u are not a Christian or have u changed your mind.

Why? If I'm breaking any rules, I'm sure Seun will be on my back shortly. Anyway, I'm politely engaging my Christian brethern in this debate. I want to understand how exactly they arrive at their conclusions and what their motivations are.