Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." - Religion - Nairaland
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| Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 11:33am On Jan 28, 2010 |
Greetings to everyone in da house, I came across this passage last nite and i must say its been really disturbing hence i felt to seek better clarities here from christians. This is what the passage says: NLT bible Proverbs 20:30- " Physical punishment cleanses away evil; such discipline purifies the heart. "NLT NIV bible Proverbs 20:30- " Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being. NIV What exactly is the bible trying to say here, could it mean that "there is a pact of casting demons and evil spirits that involved the use of wipes" I appreciate all topic related contributions. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tudor6(f): 11:48am On Jan 28, 2010 |
I thought you claimed to be Holy spirit filled? Why not ask him/her/it? |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by mazaje(m): 11:52am On Jan 28, 2010 |
Is the elusive "holy spirit" that is said to explains things to people no longer a part of your being? |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 11:54am On Jan 28, 2010 |
It has to do with chastisement,punishment for the purpose of correction and setting aright. Matthew Henry has this to say ---------- 1. Many need severe rebukes. Some children are so obstinate that their parents can do no good with them without sharp correction;some criminals must feel the rigour of the law and public justice;gentle methods will not work upon them;they must be beaten black and blue. And the wise God sees that his own children sometimes need very sharp afflictions. 2. Severe rebukes sometimes do a great deal of good, as corrosives contribute to the cure of a wound, eating out the proud flesh.The rod drives out even that foolishness which was bound up in the heart,and cleanses away the evil there. 3. Frequently those that most need severe rebukes can worse bear them. Such is the corruption of nature that men are as loth to be rebuked sharply for their sins as to be beaten till their bones ache. Correction is grievous to him that forsakes the way, and yet it is good for him.Hebrews 12:11. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by KunleOshob(m): 1:05pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Pastor tonye  were have you been? Where were you when your partner in crime Pastor Agbaje was being exposed and given a thorough dressing down, you should have been around to at least give him some unscriptural/ twisted back ups  the heat on him was soo much that he had to harrass the moderators to give him some respite, but i am sure he has learnta lesson or two now.To your question, the problem is that most baby christians like you tend to spiritualize everything you read in the bible which should not always be the case. You have to read each scripture within the context it is siituated. Proverbs for one is just a collection of wise sayings mostly written by King Solomon and most of what is written there are not necessarily spiritual or instructions from God. Once you get the context within Solomon was writing the passage you would begin to get a clearer picture. As the name of the book implies [proverbs] the scripture you quoted is merely a proverb which would be best understood within the cultural setting of the people that used the proverb. For instance a yoruba proverb might loose it's meaning if translated to english and even if it doesn't an english man might not understand tit even after translation cos he is not familiar with the culture the proverb emanated from. Hope this helps  1 Like |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 2:28pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
@Tudor Dont worry when i get my pesticide i will do the needful to you! @Ttalks, Yeah i appreciate that contribution, but i think what that passage suggests is actually the casting away of AN EVIL SPIRIT and not necessarily some correction from a vice(s). I read a Hebrew bible and saw that the term Evil as used there meant the same as "the evil spirit that King Saul had" and needed a harpist to play and pacify. I have been so afraid to agree to what my mind is pointing to. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by nuella2(f): 2:34pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Clarity on nairaland!!! Every poster with his opinion here o. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 2:36pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
KunleOshob: @KunleOshob, Behind my screen watching them tagging you a crook!  Back to the Topic: I disagree with you when you say that the book of proverbs means nothing more that just a collection of man's wisdom. Recall "All scriptures are given by God" including the book of Proverbs, and these books were not really written in English language and as such could mean understanding the languages in which they were written. My brother, i marveled at explanations i got while reading some topicals and references. That portion means more than a mere interpretation. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 2:49pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Tonye-t: Tonye-t, that passage has nothing to do with casting out any evil spirit. It is as I said earlier. The hebrew word for evil used there and that used for the evil spirit tormenting Saul is : ra‛ or râ‛âh It is the same word used for evil all over the old testament. eg. in the garden of eden; the tree of good and evil. Would you now say that those other uses of evil in the old testament had to do with evil spirits because they are the same with that related to the evil in evil spirit? |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 3:08pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
ttalks: Good! if you've agreed to say the evil used there was as the same as that used to explain King Saul's evil, then lets also see it this way King Saul was possessed with "râ‛âh[evil spirit]" and it was pacified through a physical means, would i be wrong now to postulate that A PHYSICAL MEANS IS NEEDED TO CASTING EVIL SPIRITS? Ttalks, the onus is that i think one of the means to cleanse evil spirits was the use of the means of wipes and strokes. The term evil could be synonymous with the term DEMON(i wish i m wrong to say this). |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 3:29pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Tonye-t: First of all, some corrections need to be made here: râ‛âh does not mean evil spirit; it means evil. Evil spirit would be râ‛âh rûach or the other way around. Based on the above, it would be very wrong to suggest that evil is synonymous with the term demon; it should be : evil spirit is synonymous with demon. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 3:33pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Ok brother, How then would you define or describe EVIL. *pardon my many questions i am trying to arrive somewhere and you are getting closer* |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by PastorAIO: 4:03pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Please watch the following video from just before 7 minutes into it. It shows how the traditional yoruba cleanse evil from a town by means of some serious flogging. [flash=400,400] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Lec2pv5k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"[/flash] |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 4:04pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Tonye-t: I'll give you strong's concordance definition: bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.] |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by JeSoul(f): 4:27pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
Pastor AIO:Looks like it worked for you I can think of a few NLders who could use some o'dat . . . starting with the OP.[size=4pt] gosh I miss naija[/size]  |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Bearshare(m): 4:32pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
:- |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Bearshare(m): 4:37pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
:-x :-x |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 4:42pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
@AIO, Brother, thanx bro for that vix exactly what i m kinda thinking that passage relates to although Ttalks seem to be coming from a different angle. First of all, to me the term EVIL is an abstract word and INTANGIBLE in its nature, we dont see evil rather we use things to describe and relate to it. One can be said to be evil when you have the aura of evil in and around you howbeit this aura is not seen but perceived by a person's act. Meaning EVIL IS A SPIRIT that is percieved. Example: King Saul was said to be possessed with râ‛âh rûach because he acted in a way in which people with râ‛âh acted. Mr.Ttalks, pls dont tell me you havent come across scenes of people casting out EVIL SPIRITs with wipes. A good topical will reveal that this practise was done by even the ancients in which the Jews fell into. Now one thing i dont know for sure is "DID THE JEWS JOIN IN THIS PRACTISE" for the writter of that portion of Proverbs 20:30 to have written it plainly in the bible |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Nobody: 4:42pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
if you check some other translations, the verse seems to be talking about infection. ie wound healing. Not flagellation per se. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 4:43pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
JeSoul: J-Babe, you know i cant do a thing like that na , but i feel there is something spiritual to the practise even though western civilization seem to be giving contrast to the subject. Check every ancestral pacts they made use of the custom. dont you think there is something we aint knowing about?Reason why i need clerifications.! |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Nobody: 4:59pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
VERY FUNNY THREAD i must say |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by nuclearboy(m): 6:36pm On Jan 28, 2010 |
A yoruba adage says, "you have not suffered and yet you say you've wisened up; who TAUGHT you?" I think it was IMHOTEP who pointed out that when a person is sincere, God pushes into such person's path a series of harsh experiences which cleanse him of the innate "evil" in us. Personal suffering seems to have the effect of helping us find/have emphathy for others who we see go through what we have ourselves faced and suffered. Our past experiences became DISCIPLINE which PURIFIES us for service. Another way to say this is David the King fought (DISCIPLINE) and "suffered" to get his throne and wealth. He built Israel into an empire. His son Solomon had wealth, wisdon, knowledge and power handed to him on a platter of gold. He lost his father's empire! Look then at the words "physical punishment, blows and wounds AND beatings" as the suffering (training coming from God or a parent) that cleanses and purifies you from within that you might be a wiser, more responsible person. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 10:19am On Jan 29, 2010 |
Nuclearboy, I know God takes us [CHRISTIANS] thru' paths of trials and temptations to make us strong and thus purified. That i agree no doubt!. And this He does thru' hunger, perils, unclothedness, rejection, persecution. Like Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22:32". . .I have prayed for you, when you overcome and are strong, strengthen the brethren [*mark the keyword-BRETHREN*] But there is something no one seem to be getting clear here. That passage of Proverbs is actually talking about A PHYSICAL BLOW as a means to CLEANSE EVIL, i dont think it has anything related with stuffs like giving us HUNGER, REJECTIONS to purify us, besides God's purging has to do with BRINGING OUT A GOLD IN US, while Prov.20:30 has to do with CASTING OUT SPIRITS. I feel there is a mysterious truth everyone seem to be dodging. Pls explain! |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 11:06am On Jan 29, 2010 |
Psa 89:32 (32) Then will I punish their transgression with the rod [of chastisement], and their iniquity with stripes. [II Sam. 7:14.] Pro 13:24 (24) He who spares his rod [of discipline] hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines diligently and punishes him early. [Prov. 19:18; 22:15; 23:13; 29:15, 17.] Pro 22:15 (15) Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him. Pro 23:13-14 (13) Withhold not discipline from the child; for if you strike and punish him with the [reedlike] rod, he will not die. (14) You shall whip him with the rod and deliver his life from Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead). Pro 26:3 (3) A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a [straight, slender] rod for the backs of [self-confident] fools. Pro 29:15 (15) The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left undisciplined brings his mother to shame. The verses above say essentially the same thing which Proverbs 20:30 is saying: Pro 20:30 (30) Blows that wound cleanse away evil, and strokes [for correction] reach to the innermost parts. Remember, the language of the bible is mostly symbolic. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 11:11am On Jan 29, 2010 |
But none of those passages used the keyword "EVIL" rather foolishness which is not the same thing as evil |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 11:20am On Jan 29, 2010 |
Tonye-t: So you do not know that foolishness in itself is evil? If it wasn't evil, why the need to get rid of it? Foolishness/stupidity/folly are all by-products of evil or sub-classes of evil; hence the need to get rid of them by correction. Mar 7:21-23 (21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by nuclearboy(m): 1:23pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
@TTalks: Thank you - brilliant post there  @Tonye-T: Iniquity is evil! So is transgression! A life style that tends to going to Hell is evil! Basically, everything on the list TTalks has presented is not what you'd plan for your life or that or your child - Why not? Please stop looking for meanings that are not there. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 2:43pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
Ttalks and Nuclearbboy Ok I know that foolishness, deceit et al are EVILS, all i want to know is if there is a part or portion FOR A PHYSICAL BEATING AND BLOW TO MAKE SOMEONE DESIST FROM THERE ACT that's all. lets see the scriptures again, it says : Proverbs 20:30- " Physical beating cleanses away evil; such discipline purifies the heart. "NLT Pls dont tell me the keyword "physical" are figuratives, before you do, pls check the hebrew translation for that word. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by ttalks(m): 3:06pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
Tonye-t: It's very simple. It's just like saying when you flog a child for doing something wrong, he desists from doing that wrong again for fear of another beating/flogging. The pain or suffering derived from the blows of the beating or flogging would serve as a deterrent from doing that wrong again; thereby cleansing away that evil. Or the pain received through rebuke on a wrong would serve as a deterrent for further wrong doing. It isn't far-fetched. |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by nuclearboy(m): 3:22pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
Tonye-T, Sorry to say this but its not necessary to check the Hebrew for everything. Please remember that "In a multitude of words, there is folly" and we've overflogged this matter. If you still have doubts over this issue, maybe its worth it taking the matter to God in prayer knowing He answers sincere questioning prayers. Personally though, my thought is that Ttalks has solved your problem |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by Tonyet1(m): 3:29pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
Thanx for the contributions, so it means that in a bid to CORRECT SOME FORM OF EVIL THERE IS A NEED TO USE A PHYSICAL BEATING. simple! I didnt say so, the bible did! |
| Re: Proverbs 20:30 - "Physical Beating Cleanses Away Evil. . ." by nuclearboy(m): 3:58pm On Jan 29, 2010 |
Yes Sir: the Bible says: Prov 23:13-14 "Withhold not discipline from the child; for if you strike and punish him with the [reedlike] rod, he will not die. You shall whip him with the rod and deliver his life from Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead)." NOW if you decide to beat up KunleOshob because he doesn't support tithing and you think that is evil and want it out of him, you may find him capable of handling himself or/and end up spending a weekend behind bars in which case it is you that might lose some evil. |
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