I just keep wondering why people wouldn't take the text of scripture for what it is.

Why would you keep asking how can a God retrieve SALVATION given to man through GRACE?

Are you just hardening your hearts?

Eph 2:8 - For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes I know I have been saved by Grace, but through Faith that works not self-imposed work.
What kind of work was Paul talking about here?
He was simply saying that work motivated by SELF can neither earn us salvation nor cause us to remain in Him.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my
absence--CONTINUE TO WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for IT IS GOD WHO WORKS it is God who works in you to WILL and to ACT(WORK) according to his good purpose.

On the other hand, CONTINUING WORK produced by FAITH or the inward working of the SPIRIT is prerequisite to our remaining saved.

Let him that has ears listen and be instructed!
Pls beloved brothers & Sisters I do this not for argument sake. I do this because I love my fellow believers and it pains me to see them
tossed to and fro by devilish wind of doctrines.

plainbibletruth what is "the christian way of life"? Also what happens when a person cannot be brought back to repentance sir? Did you see the criteria in vs 4&5, that's not for baby christians oh. That chapter 6 has nothing to do with sacrifices sir. "For it is impossible .....if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance". If you cannot "fellowship with God" (your words) ever again, how are you still a christian. If God cannot hear you and you cannot speak to Him and Him to you that is damnation. An unbeliever is even better because he can have audience with God whenever he is ready to.

Scholar8200:
plainbibletruth, kindly correct this notion: when God gives HE doesnt take back:

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelations 2:5


Besides, kindly lay these to heart:

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
John 15:2,6

Aye brother, none can pluck us from His Hands;but HE can cut us off if we dont abide.

Romans 11:21,22
for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

See what Jesus Christ declared:

“I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins--the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
JOHN 5:24 AMP

Note: "has eternal life"; "does not come into judgement and condemnation"; "has passed from death into life"

Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
JOHN 6:29 AMP
Note: "work" required by God is "that you believe in the One whom he has sent"

All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me].
JOHN 6:37 AMP
Note: The one who comes to Christ is NEVER cast out.

And I give them eternal life, and they will never, ever [by any means] perish; and no one will ever snatch them out of My hand.
JOHN 10:28 AMP
Note: No one will EVER snatch the believer out of Christ's hand. They will be perpetually "in him".

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
JOHN 10:29 AMP
Note: No one means "no one" - all inclusive. Not the believer himself or anyone else.

plainbibletruth:


See what Jesus Christ declared:

“I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins--the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
JOHN 5:24 AMP

Note: "has eternal life"; "does not come into judgement and condemnation"; "has passed from death into life"

Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
JOHN 6:29 AMP
Note: "work" required by God is "that you believe in the One whom he has sent"

All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me].
JOHN 6:37 AMP
Note: The one who comes to Christ is NEVER cast out.

And I give them eternal life, and they will never, ever [by any means] perish; and no one will ever snatch them out of My hand.
JOHN 10:28 AMP
Note: No one will EVER snatch the believer out of Christ's hand. They will be perpetually "in him".

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
JOHN 10:29 AMP
Note: No one means "no one" - all inclusive. Not the believer himself or anyone else.

Sir, for those of us that are following the discussion so far, your stance is that moment a Christian is saved is saved for ever[once saved always saved]?

Now, a Christian that was saved change his faith or belief[maybe by converting to another religion just as we have it these days] is such a person still save in Christ following your stance on the topic?

2kaybiel:


Sir, for those of us that are following the discussion so far, your stance is that moment a Christian is saved is saved for ever[once saved always saved]?

Now, a Christian that was saved change his faith or belief[maybe by converting to another religion just as we have it these days] is such a person still save in Christ following your stance on the topic?

In the Old Testament God chose a people for himself - Israel. That choice COMMITTED him to them.

In spite of his relationship with Israel, there were SEVERAL times in Israel's history that they ACTUALLY TURNED TO other gods - Baal, etc. In other words, they changed their religion.

When they did, God always punished them but NEVER disowned them as his people. He never went back on the COMMITMENT he had made to them.

When a Christian changes his faith he will like Israel be under divine discipline - Hebrews 12:5-11. If he does not take correction and make necessary adjustment by getting back into fellowship with God and dies in that state 1 Cor. 3:15 applies.

Because God has placed a GUARANTEE on the Christian - Ephesians 1:13-14 he (God) remains COMMITTED to that guarantee and remains faithful to keep what has been committed to him till the end because he cannot deny his commitment - 2 Timothy 2:13.

plainbibletruth:


See what Jesus Christ declared:

“I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins--the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
JOHN 5:24 AMP

Note: "has eternal life"; "does not come into judgement and condemnation"; "has passed from death into life"

Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
JOHN 6:29 AMP
Note: "work" required by God is "that you believe in the One whom he has sent"

All that My Father gives Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, never reject anyone who follows Me].
JOHN 6:37 AMP Note: The one who comes to Christ is NEVER cast out.

Kindly be balanced. Yes HE will not cast us out but:

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
[/b]John 15:6 Note: the one that will be cast forth was once IN HIM.

And I give them eternal life, and they will never, ever [by any means] perish; and no one will ever snatch them out of My hand.
JOHN 10:28 AMP
[b]Note: No one will EVER snatch the believer out of Christ's hand. They will be perpetually "in him".

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
JOHN 10:29 AMP
Note: No one means "no one" - all inclusive. Not the believer himself or anyone else.

Indeed, however, we were not born in that condition. There was a time we entered therein by FAITH:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21
[size=13pt]for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.[/size] 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22
So, the Father is the HusbandMan. If we abide in faith, we are established; if we don't HE will cut us off!

Emmanystone:

Falling away is leaving of dropping the gift of salvation which they received previously.

Which mean that repentance is impossible for such again

Scholar8200:


Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Romans 11:20-22
So, the Father is the HusbandMan. If we abide in faith, we are established; if we don't HE will cut us off!

In context Romans chapter 11 is talking about Israel and the Church.

It is not about INDIVIDUAL believers.

Romans 11:1a - "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Romans 11:26 - "and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Romans 11:28-29 - "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Romans 11:33 -"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Israel as a nation failed to fulfil God's plan for her and she was replaced by the Church. If the Church fails she too can be replaced as God's agent to the fallen world.

plainbibletruth:


In context Romans chapter 11 is talking about Israel and the Church.

It is not about INDIVIDUAL believers.

Sure it is; writer was drawing analogy from Israel but note the personal pronoun when it came to application

Romans 11:1a - "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means!"

Romans 11:11 - "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

Romans 11:26 - "and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Romans 11:28-29 - "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Romans 11:33 -"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Israel as a nation failed to fulfil God's plan for her and she was replaced by the Church. If the Church fails she too can be replaced as God's agent to the fallen world.

Let us not miss the fact that the inspired writer of Romans had a Gentile audience and he made several applications to his hearers eg:


17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The 'Thou' there refers not to Israelites but Gentiles =you and me!



25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

shadeyinka:

Which mean that repentance is impossible for such again

Yes, according to Heb 6:6.

Emmanystone:

Yes, according to Heb 6:6.

If backsliding leads to irreversible loss of salvation. 99.9% of Born Again will be on the road to perdition.

So, in the light of this, when does a christian loose his salvation?

shadeyinka:


If backsliding leads to irreversible loss of salvation. 99.9% of Born Again will be on the road to perdition.

So, in the light of this, when does a christian loose his salvation?

A Christian looses his salvation at the point where he is separated from the love of God, probably as a result of adversities, tribulations, hunger, sickness or death, and he turns to consult demons and pay his allegiance to satan.

Backsliding is not the same thing as falling into sin again after one is saved. Even if a believer falls into sin every minute of every day, so long as he recognises that it's a transgression of the Law of God and moves to cry out for mercy, he hasn't backslid. But if he becomes what we see here, someone like Vannessa we both chatted with, calling God names and dishonoring what they had once held dear, that is what Heb6:6 talks about. Vannessa turned to allah and is now disparaging YHWH and giving glory to an idol, this is backsliding (that is if she was saved in the first place).

Again, let's look at what Hebrews 6 is saying verse by verse...
Hebrews:6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

What does it mean to be enlightened? Enlightened in what? The deep things of God? What is an heavenly gift? Could it be the gifts of the spirit, like the gift of healing, prophecy and even revelational gifts? How can a man be a partaker of the Holy Ghost? Could this mean maximizing the ministry of the Holy Ghost?
I think yes. But if a man like this, probably out of tribulations (which works out patience and experience for and in us) that seems like God had forgotten him resorts to consulting demons to have his problems solved, what do you think he has done?

Hebrews:6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[b] This man had enjoyed and manifested the powers of the world to come. What is the powers of the world to come? That will be when Christ will reign on earth in manifestation, when his Kingdom will no longer rule or reign in the hearts of men, but openly seen in the system and government of the earth.
This Man has manifested this power before time. If he turns to idol worship again, what do you think he has done? Backslid.


If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews:6:6
[/b]Sir, there's just one thing, and one thing only that constitutes backsliding. It is not fornication, not adultery, not lying or stealing, not even murder, BUT, IDOL WORSHIP.

Satan challenged God and said, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (Angels) of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High God".[/b]

The bone of contention has been worship. Who will man worship?

When satan suspected that Jesus was the Christ, He demanded for one thing only, Worship. In all the three attempts, it was all geared towards Jesus worshipping satan. The same thing he did to Adam.

If anyone who has received salvation turns to consult and pay allegiance to satan, HE WILL LOOSE HIS SALVATION.

Emmanystone:

A Christian looses his salvation at the point where he is separated from the love of God, probably as a result of adversities, tribulations, hunger, sickness or death, and he turns to consult demons and pay his allegiance to satan.

Backsliding is not the same thing as falling into sin again after one is saved. Even if a believer falls into sin every minute of every day, so long as he recognises that it's a transgression of the Law of God and moves to cry out for mercy, he hasn't backslid. But if he becomes what we see here, someone like Vannessa we both chatted with, calling God names and dishonoring what they had once held dear, that is what Heb6:6 talks about. Vannessa turned to allah and is now disparaging YHWH and giving glory to an idol, this is backsliding (that is if she was saved in the first place).

Again, let's look at what Hebrews 6 is saying verse by verse...
Hebrews:6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

What does it mean to be enlightened? Enlightened in what? The deep things of God? What is an heavenly gift? Could it be the gifts of the spirit, like the gift of healing, prophecy and even revelational gifts? How can a man be a partaker of the Holy Ghost? Could this mean maximizing the ministry of the Holy Ghost?
I think yes. But if a man like this, probably out of tribulations (which works out patience and experience for and in us) that seems like God had forgotten him resorts to consulting demons to have his problems solved, what do you think he has done?

Hebrews:6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[b] This man had enjoyed and manifested the powers of the world to come. What is the powers of the world to come? That will be when Christ will reign on earth in manifestation, when his Kingdom will no longer rule or reign in the hearts of men, but openly seen in the system and government of the earth.
This Man has manifested this power before time. If he turns to idol worship again, what do you think he has done? Backslid.


If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews:6:6
[/b]Sir, there's just one thing, and one thing only that constitutes backsliding. It is not fornication, not adultery, not lying or stealing, not even murder, BUT, IDOL WORSHIP.

Satan challenged God and said, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (Angels) of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High God".[/b]

The bone of contention has been worship. Who will man worship?

When satan suspected that Jesus was the Christ, He demanded for one thing only, Worship. In all the three attempts, it was all geared towards Jesus worshipping satan. The same thing he did to Adam.

If anyone who has received salvation turns to consult and pay allegiance to satan, HE WILL LOOSE HIS SALVATION.

Nice write up.
Those who preach that Christians can loose their salvation base it on SINLESSNESS... Holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. But, I think they forget that our holiness is not self acquired but a gift of God through Christ.

Hebrews:6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This scripture is plain to understand.
In summary, it means that a Born Again who manages to loose his salvation is irredeemable.

The question is, when does our imperfections as Christians become irredeemable? As you rightly pointed out, it's not just because of sin (confessed or uncontested). But a falling away.

For me, the fallen away has to do with
1. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (defiance)
2. Revocation of one's salvation (it is a gift isn't it? So, it can be rejected)

In the case of Vanessa, (if she was initially born again) may not yet have included the two points above. Which means that she may come back to repentance and be accepted by God.

However, I believe that she was probably not born again in the first instance despite the affiliation with the church. Call it a case of Tares in the midst of wheat. For such, Jesus says "by their fruit you shall know them... ".

So many people assume they are born again when the evidence of they becoming a NEW creature is not evident.

God has transformed his own from the nature of sin to a nature of purity. If anyone claim he is in Christ but enjoys iniquity, such may never have known Jesus

You know a doctrine is false when it is invented by a man over 1600 years after Christ.


Once saved always saved is an evolving doctrine invented by John Calvin in the 16th century, and taught by his adherents as reformed theology. it is a theological invention, invented by a lawyer who thought of salvation in purely legal terms.

the totality of the teaching is called TULIP.

T for total depravity
U for unconditional predestination or election
L for limited atonement
I for irresistible grace
P for assured perseverance of the saints.


when you add these 5 weird teachings of Calvin together you get the teaching called once saved always saved.

Ubenedictus:
You know a doctrine is false when it is invented by a man over 1600 years after Christ.

Once saved always saved is an evolving doctrine invented by John Calvin in the 16th century, and taught by his adherents as reformed theology. it is a theological invention, invented by a lawyer who thought of salvation in purely legal terms.

the totality of the teaching is called TULIP.

T for total depravity
U for unconditional predestination or election
L for limited atonement
I for irresistible grace
P for assured perseverance of the saints.

when you add these 5 weird teachings of Calvin together you get the teaching called once saved always saved.

I believe in Biblical Lapsarianism and not TULIP but still hold on to once saved always saved.

Clevergeo:
I just keep wondering why people wouldn't take the text of scripture for what it is.

Why would you keep asking how can a God retrieve SALVATION given to man through GRACE?

Are you just hardening your hearts?

Eph 2:8 - For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through FAITH--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes I know I have been saved by Grace, but through Faith that works not self-imposed work.
What kind of work was Paul talking about here?
He was simply saying that work motivated by SELF can neither earn us salvation nor cause us to remain in Him.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my
absence--CONTINUE TO WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling,
13 for IT IS GOD WHO WORKS it is God who works in you to WILL and to ACT(WORK) according to his good purpose.

On the other hand, CONTINUING WORK produced by FAITH or the inward working of the SPIRIT is prerequisite to our remaining saved.

Let him that has ears listen and be instructed!
Pls beloved brothers & Sisters I do this not for argument sake. I do this because I love my fellow believers and it pains me to see them
tossed to and fro by devilish wind of doctrines.

So you believe you were saved by Grace and not by works,yes?
And God can still retrieve the saving Grace given to you?
Then your God has an issue

plainbibletruth:


I believe in Biblical Lapsarianism and not TULIP but still hold on to once saved always saved.

lapsarianism is still a school of thought within Calvinism that originated form Theodore Beza and Jerome Zanchius and allowed by the reform dort council.

you are just a more recent branch of John Calvin's doctrines

Ubenedictus:


lapsarianism is still a school of thought within Calvinism that originated form Theodore Beza and Jerome Zanchius and allowed by the reform dort council.

you are just a more recent branch of John Calvin's doctrines

Lapsarianism is a technical word.

Notice I said BIBLICAL LAPSARIANISM.

plainbibletruth:


Lapsarianism is a technical word.

Notice I said BIBLICAL LAPSARIANISM.

it is still the same thing, the only difference is that you think the the teachings of Beza and co has biblical support. just as those who are in the branch of Calvinism that teach unconditional predestination think theirs is biblical.