TheGuyFromHR:
As an aside, the whole nauseating Windrush matter should give a pointer to what can happen to you when your skin is not white and they decide to question your citizenship. Despite all the injustices heaped upon those west Indians many of whom arrived when they were legally British subjects or before their legal right to come to the UK was legislated away, the government is still beating about the bush in terms of recognising their rights.

There is one seriously unjust case where a man who came here as a child in the 60s (when he was allowed to), lived here all his life, then went back to Jamaica to attend his mother's funeral, and was unlawfully denied entry to the UK for 9 years thereafter. When he was finally allowed back in 2018, he applied for citizenship, but was given ILR instead and told that despite living here for 40 years, you have to be in the UK for the 5 years preceding an application to get citizenship, When his lawyer naturally pointed out that his client would have been in the UK 5 years ago if not for the fact that he had been unlawfully refused entry to his own country, the Home Secretary said sorry, that's the law. You have to wait another 5 years.

But after Mandela won the election in South Africa in 1994, thousands of white South Africans simply packed up and moved to the UK en masse.
Who said skin colour doesn't matter?

Don't conflate issues.

Windrush has nothing to do with Shemima Begum.

Many of the Windrush guys did not register for Passport, and were largely victims of administrative errors. The guy you mention lived in UK for 40 years without regularising his stay - whose fault is that?

Michael Adebolajo and his friend who commited their acts of Terrorism on UK soil are still sitting in UK prisons.
Shemima Begum wasn't even kicked out the country - she left willingly. It was only after she had left the UK to go and pledge allegiance to IS and breed soldiers for them that UK government decided to lock the gate behind her.

nihilistjnr:

I never said it wasn't the law so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here


Anna Chapman -Russian
David Hicks - Australian
Jack Letts - Canadiian

All white btw



This is such a ridiculous statement. Shemima Begum LEFT the UK in case you've forgotten. Voluntarily. To go and become a Citizen of ISIS. And the UK government refused to let her back.
How does this relate to what you wrote up there?


Nothing you wrote here is relevant to the topic at hand. If your children go and join ISIS and are caught, even if you climb a cross and pay the ultimate price, they will get the Shemima Begum treatment.



'They' are not 'just starting' anything bro

The 1981 Act outlined the boundaries of British Citizenship, and Section 40 of the Act included conditions under which the Secretary of State could deprive citizenship to non-birth citizens – i.e. those who had British citizenship due to naturalisation or registration.

Wtf are you on about? Have you been paying any attention? Shamima was born here and was a British citizen at birth. What gibberish are you spewing comparing her to non-birth citizens and those who acquired citizenship by naturalisation or registration. Like wtaf

icon8:


Wtf are you on about? Have you been paying any attention? Shamima was born here and was a British citizen at birth. What gibberish are you spewing comparing her to non-birth citizens and those who acquired citizenship by naturalisation or registration. Like wtaf

We may have to mobilise a search party to locate your point at this rate.

Did you see me argue that Begum was not born a British Citizen? Abi which kain wahala be this?

icon8:


Until it happens to you or close to home.
The Jews in pre-Nazi Germany didn’t know it could happen to them until it did.

Allow us to make our noise in peace.

No it will not happen to me because i'm not about to join any terrorist group, just in case you want to i can only wish you all the bad luck in the world

nihilistjnr:


Don't conflate issues.

Windrush has nothing to do with Shemima Begum.

Many of the Windrush guys did not register for Passport, and were largely victims of administrative errors. The guy you mention lived in UK for 40 years without regularising his stay - whose fault is that?

Michael Adebolajo and his friend who commited their acts of Terrorism on UK soil are still sitting in UK prisons.
Shemima Begum wasn't even kicked out the country - she left willingly. It was only after she had left the UK to go and pledge allegiance to IS and breed soldiers for them that UK government decided to lock the gate behind her.

You don't even understand the issue.
The guy in that case ALREADY had the legal right to live in the UK, just like all the Windrush people.
But it was denied to him. That is the point of the comparison.

That is the issue.
Begum is not a naturalised citizen, her parents are.
She is a citizen by birth (remember at one point they were debating how to allow her baby son, who later died, to be brought back to the UK to live with the parents, because his citizenship was not in question of course, he had derived it from his mother before she was stripped of hers).

And saying the Windrush people were victims of administrative errors - my goodness.
Those were no errors, they were deliberate acts.
How many people have passports - why do you need a passport when you have legal residence and citizenship and you don't need to travel?

TheGuyFromHR:


You don't even understand the issue.
The guy in that case ALREADY had the legal right to live in the UK, just like all the Windrush people.
But it was denied to him. That is the point of the comparison.

Can you explain how your guy has legal right to stay but was kicked out then?

That is the issue.
Begum is not a naturalised citizen, her parents are.
She is a citizen by birth (remember at one point they were debating how to allow her baby son, who later died, to be brought back to the UK to live with the parents, because his citizenship was not in question of course, he had derived it from his mother before she was stripped of hers).

UK Citizenship is a privilege not a right if you were not born a white Brit

nihilistjnr:


Can you explain how your guy has legal right to stay but was kicked out then?



UK Citizenship is a privilege not a right if you were not born a white Brit

Jolly good, you;ve just admitted you accept and support racism.
No need to argue further.

TheGuyFromHR:



How many people have passports - why do you need a passport when you have legal residence and citizenship and you don't need to travel?

Lets be logical

You came to UK on a Visa but never left

You lived here for 40 years but never bothered to update Home Office

40 years later you traveled out of the country to Jamaica - but you dont have a UK passport - How did you even get out of the country in the firts place?

Now you wan to come back to the UK - using what paperwork sir?

TheGuyFromHR:


Jolly good, you;ve just admitted you accept and support racism.
No need to argue further.

How is it racism?

nihilistjnr:


Lets be logical

You came to UK on a Visa but never left

You lived here for 40 years but never bothered to update Home Office

40 years later you traveled out of the country to Jamaica - but you dont have a UK passport - How did you even get out of the country in the firts place?

Now you wan to come back to the UK - using what paperwork sir?

Addressing your lack of knowledge about historic immigration issues, prior to 1 January 1973, anyone from the Commonwealth who moved to the UK automatically had full residence rights. In those days, even Nigerians just needed to buy a ticket and come. No visas were needed, and in may cases, some didn't even need passports, like the west Indians, some of whom came as children with their names written in on a parent's passport.

So many people came and lived here for years and didn't bother with paperwork because they thought they didn't need to, just like millions of native born citizens.

TheGuyFromHR:


Addressing your lack of knowledge about historic immigration issues, prior to 1 January 1973, anyone from the Commonwealth who moved to the UK automatically had full residence rights. In those days, even Nigerians just needed to buy a ticket and come. No visas were needed, and in may cases, some didn't even need passports, like the west Indians, some of whom came as children with their names written in on a parent's passport.

So many people came and lived here for years and didn't bother with paperwork, just like many native born citizens.

You're making my point for me sef.

Ok your guy came to the UK with no paperwork at all

He lived here for 40 years and never bothered to register with home office and never bothered to get his British passport.

But you're the same person telling me the man left UK and went to Jamaica

Now I'm asking you...with what paperwork sir? What papers did he use to leave the country? Is he a disciple of Apostle Suleiman?

nihilistjnr:


You're making my point for me sef.

Ok your guy came to the UK with no paperwork at all

He lived here for 40 years and never bothered to register with home office and never bothered to get his British passport.

But you're the same person telling me the man left UK and went to Jamaica

Now I'm asking you...with what paperwork sir? What papers did he use to leave the country? Is he a disciple of Apostle Suleiman?

A quick googling will give you the information you seek but do not have about the immigration issues.

TheGuyFromHR:


A quick googling will give you the information you seek but do not have about the immigration issues.

In other words, you don't know how the man left the country.

It's Ok, you can take a seat and rest now.

nihilistjnr:


In other words, you don't know how the man left the country.

It's Ok, you can take a seat and rest now.

I shall do what you suggested.
I realised that given that you haven't any knowledge of the whole matter, pursuing a discussion about it was ultimately futile.

TheGuyFromHR:


I shall do what you suggested.
I realised that given that you haven't any knowledge of the whole matter, pursuing a discussion about it was ultimately futile.

Ogbeni this is what you posted

TheGuyFromHR:


There is one seriously unjust case where a man who came here as a child in the 60s (when he was allowed to), lived here all his life, then went back to Jamaica to attend his mother's funeral, and was unlawfully denied entry to the UK for 9 years thereafter. When he was finally allowed back in 2018, he applied for citizenship, but was given ILR instead and told that despite living here for 40 years, you have to be in the UK for the 5 years preceding an application to get citizenship, When his lawyer naturally pointed out that his client would have been in the UK 5 years ago if not for the fact that he had been unlawfully refused entry to his own country, the Home Secretary said sorry, that's the law. You have to wait another 5 years.

All I asked is which passport the man used to travel for his mum's funeral.

You said he didn't come to UK with any paperwork, and didn't have a UK passport.

So enlighten us na? Or what's the problem here?

nihilistjnr:


Can you explain how your guy has legal right to stay but was kicked out then?



UK Citizenship is a privilege not a right if you were not born a white Brit

I give up

TheGuyFromHR:


Addressing your lack of knowledge about historic immigration issues, prior to 1 January 1973, anyone from the Commonwealth who moved to the UK automatically had full residence rights. In those days, even Nigerians just needed to buy a ticket and come. No visas were needed, and in may cases, some didn't even need passports, like the west Indians, some of whom came as children with their names written in on a parent's passport.

So many people came and lived here for years and didn't bother with paperwork because they thought they didn't need to, just like millions of native born citizens.

That is just ignorant on their part, how will you live in a country as an immigrant without a passport? If you don't need it in those days how about now? You wanted the immigration to just believe his explanation without any paper evidence to support it?

Bro everything is not racism or discrimination, we have to acknowledge when mistake is made and learn from it.

We sometimes use racism to cover our shortcomings.

icon8:


I give up

Bros relax...this is the constitution of your own country

You people are busy being woke instead of focusing on the nature of Begum's offence.

A naturalised Nigerian Citizen only has to catch a 4 year jail term within 7 years of naturalising before Buhari kicks him or her out.

You don't need to give up, just dont join ISIS

justwise:


That is just ignorant on their part, how will you live in a country as an immigrant without a passport? If you don't need it in those days how about now? You wanted the immigration to just believe his explanation without any paper evidence to support it?

Bro everything is not racism or discrimination, we have to acknowledge when mistake is made and learn from it.

We sometimes use racism to cover our shortcomings.

You must know better than the UK government then, because Her Majesty’s Government has repeatedly apologised over this Windrush scandal, including by the Home Office and even the then PM, Theresa May. But here you are defending what you are ignorant of, being the wise man that you are.

Sometimes, I just can’t but wonder what qualifies one to be a moderator on this forum.

nihilistjnr:


Bros relax...this is the constitution of your own country

You people are busy being woke instead of focusing on the nature of Begum's offence.

A naturalised Nigerian Citizen only has to catch a 4 year jail term within 7 years of naturalising before Buhari kicks him or her out.

You don't need to give up, just dont join ISIS

Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Can you just rest? Are you just taking the piss or you really do not know the difference between a natural born citizen and a naturalised one?

The lady in question was not naturalised. She was born and raised here, and was British at birth! Ah, na wah for this public forum o!

icon8:


You must know better than the UK government then, because Her Majesty’s Government has repeatedly apologised over this Windrush scandal, including by the Home Office and even the then PM, Theresa May. But here you are defending what you are ignorant of, being the wise man that you are.

Sometimes, I just can’t but wonder what qualifies one to be a moderator on this forum.

How does my contribution here has anything to do with me being a moderator?

You obviously struggle to get your points together without poor attempt to throw insult.

The apologise was in general for sending them back and how some cases were handled

We are talking about someone living here for 40yrs without bothering to have a passport,

If you are unable to separate those two issues then i suggest you do yourself a favour and go read-only mode

icon8:


Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Can you just rest? Are you just taking the piss or you really do not know the difference between a natural born citizen and a naturalised one?

The lady in question was not naturalised. She was born and raised here, and was British at birth! Ah, na wah for this public forum o!

I think you might be deliberately obtuse or perhaps just incapable of following threads of conversation

Exhibit A
I posted this

nihilistjnr:

So if Shemima decides to leave the UK and return to a Muslim caliphate, it is entirely her prerogative. If she chooses to to pledge allegiance to a known enemy of the UK, it is her right to do so. But it is not her right to retain the citizenship that the country she hates gifted to her parents.
And the British have the right to withdraw their citizenship from immigrants who have betrayed that gift.

You then quoted me to say:

icon8:

Your post has no basis in law, just so you know. A child born on British soil to a settled parent is an automatic British citizen. As British as it gets. No matter where the parent came from, once they attain settled status, any child born of them afterwards is a British citizen at birth. That’s the law!

Now look at the post you quoted again - Did you see me argue that Shemima Begum is not British by birth? I literally pointed out that it was her parents who were gifted UK citizenship. It's there in black and white. Literally.

Exhibit B
I posted this:

nihilistjnr:


UK Citizenship is a privilege not a right if you were not born a white Brit

You then responded with:

The lady in question was not naturalised. She was born and raised here, and was British at birth! Ah, na wah for this public forum o!

Was Shemima Begum born a British Citizen? Yes
Has her citizenship been revoked? Yes
Has her citizenship been revoked legally? Yes and the decision was upheld by the Supreme Court

Now ask yourself if your assertion that she was born British invalidates the post you quoted. If it you find that it does - show us how.

justwise:


That is just ignorant on their part, how will you live in a country as an immigrant without a passport? If you don't need it in those days how about now? You wanted the immigration to just believe his explanation without any paper evidence to support it?

Bro everything is not racism or discrimination, we have to acknowledge when mistake is made and learn from it.

We sometimes use racism to cover our shortcomings.

There is a difference between the west Indians and us - the west Indians, descendants of enslaved persons, were brought up to think of Britain as "the mother country", and basically home. For most of them, coming here in those days was like someone moving from my village to Lagos.

So you can't look at them with the eyes of 2021 when the world is so firmly divided with borders and judge their actions or inactions, it was a very different world then, so different that many of us now can't imagine it.

On a somewhat related note, I have an uncle who had a west Indian wife and family in London in those days who did a bit of the occasional 3-day weekend tripping to London we used to hear about in the late 70s and 80s when it was doable for generally comfortable people. He stopped going to the UK after 87 when Thatcher brought in visas because he found the application process very annoying. He eventually went again in 2006 when they stopped all that going to the high commission stuff. It sounds funny to us, but I can understand it when those of them who were used to just getting up and packing a bag found it difficult to adapt to filling forms and printing out bank statements (especially in the days when the banks used to use those long horizontal printouts which when you have 6 months transactions could become a huge load).

TheGuyFromHR:


There is a difference between the west Indians and us - the west Indians, descendants of enslaved persons, were brought up to think of Britain as "the mother country", and basically home. For many of them, coming here in those days was like someone moving from my village to Lagos.

So you can't look at them with the eyes of 2021 when the world is so firmly divided with borders and judge their actions or inactions, it was a different world in those days, so different that many of us now can't imagine it.

On a somewhat related note, I have an uncle who had a Jamo wife and family in London in those days who did a bit of the occasional 3-day weekend tripping to London we used to hear about in the late 70s and 80s when it was doable for generally comfortable people. He stopped going to the UK after 87 when Thatcher brought in visas because he found the application process very annoying. He eventually went again in 2006 when they stopped all that going to the high commission stuff. It sounds funny to us, but I can understand it when those of them who were used to just getting up and packing a bag found it difficult to adapt to filling forms and printing out bank statements (especially in the days when they used to use those long horizontally printouts which when you have 6 months transactions can become a huge load) .

The guy you mentioned cannot have gone back to Jamaica after spending 40 years in the UK with the same passport he arrived with in the 60s, so he must have had to fill out forms.

Which forms did he fill out? Which paperwork did he use to leave the UK.?

nihilistjnr:


I think you might be deliberately obtuse or perhaps just incapable of following threads of conversation

Exhibit A
I posted this


You then quoted me to say:


Now look at the post you quoted again - Did you see me argue that Shemima Begum is not British by birth? I literally pointed out that it was her parents who were gifted UK citizenship. It's there in black and white. Literally.

Exhibit B
I posted this:


You then responded with:



Was Shemima Begum born a British Citizen? Yes
Has her citizenship been revoked? Yes
Has her citizenship been revoked legally? Yes and the decision was upheld by the Supreme Court

Now ask yourself if your assertion that she was born British invalidates the post you quoted. If it you find that it does - show us how.

You are obviously confused, because you have mixed up my responses, either by being clumsy or by being clever by half. Either ways, do yourself a favour and check my response to your white privilege post again, to which I replied “I give up”. The other response was to your Nigerian citizenship revocation comment, where you yet again chose to compare apples with oranges, and I called you out for not knowing the difference between a natural born and a naturalised citizen. But here you are mismatching my quotes to cause confusion. Not smart, you know?

nihilistjnr:


The guy you mentioned cannot have gone back to Jamaica after spending 40 years in the UK with the same passport he arrived with in the 60s, so he must have had to fill out forms.

Which forms did he fill out? Which paperwork did he use to leave the UK.?

You thirst for knowledge, but you have still not done your assigned reading.

icon8:


You are obviously confused, because you have mixed up my responses, either by being clumsy or by being clever by half. Either ways, do yourself a favour and check my response to your white privilege post again, to which I replied “I give up”. The other response was to your Nigerian citizenship revocation comment, where you yet again chose to compare apples with oranges, and I called you out for not knowing the difference between a natural born and a naturalised citizen. But here you are mismatching my quotes to cause confusion. Not smart, you know?

Ogbeni I was merely pointing out that UK government are not alone in stripping dual nationals of their citizenship, the act of which has been the subject of discussion.

The Nigerian government also strips dual nationals of Nigerian citizenship, on the condition that they are naturalised and commit a crime within 7 years of Naturalisation.

If the specific scenario of naturalisation within the context of Nigerian citizenship is percieved as low hanging fruit, then that's on you, not me. I never argued that Begum was naturalised, and I am only responsible for what I type...not what you comprehend.

TheGuyFromHR:


You thirst for knowledge, but you have still not done your assigned reading.

If you knew you would have answered.
Justwise asked you the same question and you wrote half a textbook on your uncles sister's husband's jamo wife from 1970, instead of answering a very simple question

For 5 points, Which passport did your jamo friend use to leave the UK?
Answer on a postcard please

nihilistjnr:


Ogbeni I was merely pointing out that UK government are not alone in stripping dual nationals of their citizenship, [b]the act of which has been the subject of discussion.[/b]

The Nigerian government also strips dual nationals of Nigerian citizenship, on the condition that they are naturalised and commit a crime within 7 years of Naturalisation.

If the specific scenario of naturalisation within the context of Nigerian citizenship is percieved as low hanging fruit, then that's on you, not me. I never argued that Begum was naturalised, and I am only responsible for what I type...not what you comprehend.

No, the subject of discussion all along has been that the lady in question is not a naturalised citizen, but you keep comparing her to naturalised citizens and quoting laws meant for them. For the umpteenth time, Shamima is a natural born British citizen and does not even have dual nationality. Compare apples with apples, not with clementines!

So you guys are still arguing about the wife of the terrorist?

Her not being allowed back into the country has nothing to do about the colour of her skin. It’s more to do with the nature of her crime.
Like someone mentioned here the two British born Nigerian terrorists are black and are serving their sentence here in the uk. This lady in question is not even remorseful for her crimes. I saw the interview and she had defiance written all over her. She can go to her husband’s country of Netherlands or her parents birth country but no country wants a threat of her grooming other young women which is likely to happen. She has already pledged alliance to the state of Isis and denounced her British national by doing that. They were warned. You can’t eat your cake and have it.

The wind rush is about those commonwealth countries that came at a very tender age and never bothered to regularise their papers. All their documents were destroyed during Theresa May’s tenure as Home Secretary. These windrush kids were treated unfairly . But speak to other Caribbeans and they will say why did these people not regularise their papers? Some of them were actually deported. There’s no excuse for the way they were treated because there are white British borns who have never owned a passport. The home office has apologised and compensated most of them.
Despite this you can’t compare the two cases as they are not related.

icon8:

No, the subject of discussion all along has been that the lady in question is not a naturalised citizen, but you keep comparing her to naturalised citizens and quoting laws meant for them. !

You didn't have such a discussion with me. If you have evidence of me discussing how shemima acquired citizenship with you, you can present it...but I think you're more likely to find that you made up an argument in your head and then proceeded to argue with yourself..and somehow managed to lose.

For the umpteenth time, Shamima is a natural born British citizen and does not even have dual nationality. Compare apples with apples, not with clementines

Was mate...I'm not sure you've been paying attention but Shemima is no longer a British citizen and hasn't been for a while.

justwise:


That is just ignorant on their part, how will you live in a country as an immigrant without a passport? If you don't need it in those days how about now? You wanted the immigration to just believe his explanation without any paper evidence to support it?

Bro everything is not racism or discrimination, we have to acknowledge when mistake is made and learn from it.

We sometimes use racism to cover our shortcomings.

Yes, because the law said so.
Commonwealth citizens who had arrived before 1973 had ILR.
The problem was that for many people who were not well educated or had lived lives on the fringes of society, gathering documentation to prove their residency wasn't always easy. The fault was the government's, it was well aware that many of these persons were unable to prove their residency and had maintained a record of the landing cards it used to record the names of Carribbean arrivals in those days. Then the government destroyed those records and then now moved the burden of proof to their victims.

In other words, you could be a 60 year old west Indian in the UK, and when you interface with the government, you are told you are deemed to be illegal and should prove otherwise by the very same government which is well aware that an elderly west Indian living in the UK is likely to be a Commonwealth arrival with automatic ILR. The government ignores the fact that you've got records of tax and NI payments going back decades, and asks you for documents that you had never needed before to prove you arrived before 1973.

If you have never really understood the Windrush scandal, it's not something to be explained here, you need to read up about it and understand the issues involved - the fact that you asked those questions shows you dont know the issues involved.