JeSoul:

  Noetic, I'll ask you the same question I asked Chukwudi who hasn't had the chance to respond yet:

Lets assume a christian dies and was never baptised, is it your position that he/she will not see heaven? but will instead go to hell? (this is the question of the topic) Your response to this question will help in furthering this debate. Cheers.

JeSoul:

I'll try to keep my response concise so its easy for others to follow and understand. Noetic this is to you as well.

1. Christian doctrine is usually not derived from just one verse. Scriptures work hand in hand with other scriptures and we take the bible as a total body of work - not plucking single scriptures and basing entire doctrines on it - especially doctrines of this magnitude.
Now countless times when Jesus teaches, admonishes He said "go and sin no more" "give up all your possessions" "leave your father and mother and follow me". In all this the underlying point is to turn away from the world and to God - in order to be saved. So it is not the giving up of possessions that saves - but the turning to God.

In the same way baptism is an act of obedience to Christ who commanded that we be baptised - hence it is important. However, it is not the act of baptism itself that saves - but instead the repentance. The physical act of baptism is simply the manifestation of the repentance. I will explain . . .

2. Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So what was Peter saying here? that baptism is a requirement to get into heaven? All thru the subsequent books - Romans, Corinthians, Phillipians, Hebrews, James - we hear Paul and the other writers endlessly harp on Faith, that results in good works.

We all know that we are saved first to last by Faith (Rm 1:17). So why did Peter not mention Faith at all? we know faith is the foundation not baptism. Or are they all preaching different gospels from each other? Infact the scriptures say "if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved" - where is the mention of you must be baptized?

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The bottomline is that all of scripture should be read and understood and applied evenly. Not basing entire doctrines pertaining to salvation on single verses while ignoring other verses that contradict your conclusion. Or else we have this problem of different methods and means of salvation: Jesus said simply believe, Paul says its faith, James - works, now Peter repent and be baptized. Is there confusion in the word? or is it our poor grasp of it?

aletheia:

1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

JeSoul:

^Tonye how body?

Again you have gone the route I was chastising Chukwudi for. You've quoted only 1 Peter and based your entire thing off it. Please read my last reponse and respond to that. I can produce other verses that say faith alone is necessary, or belief alone, or repentance alone. Take every verse into account, not just one.

And again, did the theif on the cross come down, go and get baptized and then climb back before Jesus said he would join him in paradise? If baptism is a requirement how come he will get into heaven?

lol, J-babe take am easy ,this is where you seem to be getting it all wrong. paradise and Heaven are two different places.

paradise is word with persian origin meaning the Garden of Eden where the tree of life resided, inotherwords it was a realm of perfection on earth. whilst Heaven is where God and his authority dwells.

The thief did not go to heaven, but rather the REALM OF PERFECTION ON EARTH. I dont want to show scriptures yet until you check the meanings better, cheers!

WATER BAPTISM IS A PREREQUISITE FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN . quote me.

noetic16:

how did he/she become a CHRISTIAN in the first place without being baptised?. . . . .or are we confused as to the definition of a christian?

noetic16:

1. Salvation should not be misunderstood . . . . . . .salvation is depicted as repentance, but John also called for repentance, was John's call for repentance also a call to salvation. . .NO. Salvation is NOT just a call to repentance. . .salvation is the total surrender of ones life and will to God through Christ Jesus. So when Jesus says believe and be baptised . . . . . . .He simply gave u the first order as a soldier of God's army. baptism does not take anyone to heaven, but it is a spiritual symbolism of ones new patron . . .God.

2. u quoted Acts 2:38 in isolation. perhaps u should ask, what did peter do to those who believed in the gospel he preached. . . . .the answer is in verse 41. . . . .they were all BAPTISED immediately. why would he choose to baptise them since they have already believed the gospel?

1. Jesoul, to believe that a jewish carpenter died for your sins and is God. . .requires lots of guts and FAITH. the evidence of that faith is baptism. faith is involved when an issue goes beyond the scope of rationality.

2. True the scripture says that believing in our heart and confessing with our mouth we are saved. but the first creed of our salvation is baptism. is there any example of anyone in the scriptures who got saved without baptism?

2. Paul says it is faith. it takes faith to believe that there is a spiritual significance in putting water over a person and calling it baptism. it also takes faith to believe that a death on the cross wipes away sin. Paul's notion of faith does NOT contradict baptism, . . .baptism is an ACT of FAITH.

Tonye-t:

lol, J-babe take am easy ,this is where you seem to be getting it all wrong. paradise and Heaven are two different places.

paradise is word with persian origin meaning the Garden of Eden where the tree of life resided, inotherwords it was a realm of perfection on earth. whilst Heaven is where God and his authority dwells.

The thief did not go to heaven, but rather the REALM OF PERFECTION ON EARTH. I dont want to show scriptures yet until you check the meanings better, cheers!

WATER BAPTISM IS A PREREQUISITE FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN . quote me.

InesQor:

I don tire

sonya4all:

U need to be baptised as a sign 2 the world that u are now a child of God,baptism is like the weding ring of couples signifying that they are no more single,so is baptism,u do its as an act of obedience and faith and not compulsory for one 2 be in heaven.

@jesoul,u r an ambassador for christ,are u an independent baptist? Or whats the name of your church?

chukwudi44:

Jesoul why don't u explain how one can bcome a xtian witout being baptised. mind u d thief u kip quoting died under d jewish era. Xtianity started on easter sunday

OLAADEGBU:
A true Christian is one who has been born again because of his faith in the Gospel truth which can only be found in the Bible[b] and by the workings of the Holy Spirit[/b].

Salvation does not come through water baptism but by grace through faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7; 2:8,9; 1 John 1:7,9; Heb.9:22).  The Scripture records a catalogue of those who got saved by Jesus Christ without water baptism being a pre-requisite: Jesus healed the one sick of palsy in Matt.9:1-7; the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears and cleaned them with her hair in Luke 7:36-50, Zacchaeus, the thief on the cross and the Ethiopian Eunuch, Even Paul was being addressed as a 'brother' (Bro. Saul) by Ananias and this was before he got baptised (Acts 9:17).

Tonye-t:

Ok J-babe, one question sha,

do you think/believe Paradise and Heaven both mean the same place? Pls your answer will go a long way. cheers!

Ochlux:

@jesoul,i was just asking because your answers were in strick consonance with the independent baptist,no mist feelings,

i dnt think there is any thing u can say no 2 convince these peopie

noetic16:

Not so fast,  . ,  .dont isolate that verse.
. . .
17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.[/color]
. . .

Jas 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Eph 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Ephesians 1:13:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Galatians 3:27:

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13:

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4-5:

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

JeSoul:

 So if a person is not baptized, they are/cannot ever be a christian?

 I have just one response to that - wow.

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For the sake of clarity I will respond to only the key points in your post:
  Now perhaps you are confusing salvation with the walk itself.

 When one believes is the point/moment of salvation (John 3:16 makes this abundantly clear). The subsequent life of obedience to Christ is the walk that includes living and walking as Christ did and following in his example of baptism. Baptism is not a requisite for Salvation - it is merely the physical response of it. Do you see the difference?

  I haven't said baptism is not important. The question is whether or not one will go to hell if they weren't.

No, baptism is not THE evidence of Faith no more than Speaking in Tongues is. It is just one of many many.

A shady question Noetic. You might as well have asked show me a person in the bible who got saved without speaking in tongues.

Nobody disagrees with that. Is baptism a requisite to enter heaven? that is the question of the thread. Not whether baptism is important or not.

ttalks:
Water baptism is just one of the acts to show one's faith,not an agency to bring one into the faith.

JeSoul:
Is baptism a requisite to enter heaven? that is the question of the thread.

noetic16:
YES . . . .and please quote me anywhere.

OLAADEGBU:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say to you, Except a man be born of water and Spirit, he cannot into the kingdom of God. -- John 3:5

Jesus used water as a figure of speech here relating to salvation and of cleansing by the Word of God.  Men are cleansed and born again by the Word (See James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).

The two Agents of the New birth are;
[list]
[li]The Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor.6:11) and [/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]The Word of God (1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18; Eph.5:26; John 15:3 [/li]
[/list]
A true Christian is one who has been born again because of his faith in the Gospel truth which can only be found in the Bible and by the workings of the Holy Spirit.

[/quote]

1. how did this person exercise his faith in the gospel truth without accepting baptism? Jesus said if anyone accepts the gospel he/she should get baptised .  . ,  , how then do u seperate baptism from the gospel truth?

2. On the contrary the HOLY SPIRIT is NOT an agent/perquisite  of salvation. saved persons did not have have the holy spirit UNTIL they get an HS baptism. . .which is different from getting saved and water baptism, . . example abound in the bible.

3. A christian is the son of God. . . .the sons of God are those led by the spirit (romans 8:14). .  . . . . .those that DISOBEY God are NOT the sons of God.
[quote]
[list]
[li]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. - 1 Peter 1:23[/li]
[/list]

Salvation does not come through water baptism but by grace through faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:7; 2:8,9; 1 John 1:7,9; Heb.9:22).

  The Scripture records a catalogue of those who got saved by Jesus Christ without water baptism being a pre-requisite: Jesus healed the one sick of palsy in Matt.9:1-7; the woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears and cleaned them with her hair in Luke 7:36-50, Zacchaeus, the thief on the cross and the Ethiopian Eunuch, Even Paul was being addressed as a 'brother' (Bro. Saul) by Ananias and this was before he got baptised (Acts 9:17).

JeSoul:

ttalks, long time how've you been?

JeSoul:

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wow. A salvation that actually requires physical works. I really have nothing else to add. Those reading can make up their minds for themselves from all that's already been said.

ttalks:

noetic, nobody is trying to downplay the act of faith which is the water baptism. The point here is that it is not a part of what gets one saved. The conclusion is water baptism comes after being saved and not in the process of getting saved(refering to the saved that Christ referred to in John 3:16,not the continuous process till Christ's return). It is an act performed after being saved.Entry into salvation/the body of Christ/christianity requires only belief in Christ and nothing else. Any other thing is simply an act of faith.

aletheia:

@noetic
Here's my tuppence:

If your argument is along the lines of James in his epistle
then one can argue that a genuinely saved man or woman will be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ. But then one is not saved or regenerated by the act of baptism but rather by faith in Jesus of Nazareth. As the scriptures do testify:
For Christians, baptism itself is an act of faith, a public confession of identifying with the death and resurrection of Jesus. For us as Christians it has a different meaning from those disciples of John who got baptized or proselytes converting to the Jewish faith, who also got baptized.

Would you therefore say that these three groups viz:
a. Christians
b. Disciples of John
c. converts to Judaism
are saved by baptism? The common thread that runs through these groups is that baptism is a symbolic act signifying a ruption from the past, a putting off of the old and a putting on of the new.
Indeed not all who are baptized are regenerate as witness the case with Simon Magus: