afiq:

The anti-baptism folks will say anything(even twisting the Bible) to defend their ignorance.

InesQor:

For the record, I am not an anti-baptist. IN FACT, I attend a Baptist Church and I got baptized when i got born again over a decade ago.

Where I have a problem is when people say that without a PHYSICAL act of baptism, a SPIRITUAL benefit of salvation will never accrue?

When did faith become so trivial and physical?

noetic16:

faith has ALWAYS been physical, to a very large extent. why disobey someone u have faith in?

InesQor:

Noetic, faith has always been physical?

Faith is FIRST spiritual, but it has physical manifestations. When you put the physical traits first before the spiritual change, you have lost the essence of the truth!

Nobody is talking about disobedience. We are saying that statements like "baptism is the necessary requisite for salvation" will make people put their confidence in baptism!!!!

WHERE IS YOUR CONFIDENCE? In Christ or in a Splash-dash of water?

InesQor:

There are people who believed in Christ and His gospel and it became accounted to them as righteousness by faith, but NOT because of disobedience, but for one reason or the other never get to be baptised. They end up in hell?

noetic16:

muslims also believe in Christ. . .are they saved? is it accounted to them unto righteousness? please be objective

InesQor:

Please tell me you are joking, noetic? Do Muslims believe in Christ? What does it mean to believe in Christ?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I can't believe you are saying all of this just to push your argument.

Now, tell me, does this mean that a heathen man dying on his sickbed, no matter how much you preach the Gospel to him, will never get to heaven if he believes your message and he accepts Christ, and it is accounted to him as righteousness by faith in God? For his salvation to be complete, the nurses have to let in the fireman's hose through the window so that this paraplegic man whose mortal body is wasting away on the bed, can be BAPTISED by soaking immersion? Otherwise there is no need preaching to some people who cannot leave their sick beds because if they die there they will never get to heaven anyway without baptism.

Come off it. You've got to be kidding me.

noetic16:

I used the muslim scenario to highlight just how iimited your scope of understanding the word "BELIEVE" is.
If muslims do not believe in JC. . . . .fair enough. Christians believe in JC. . .how?. . .by obeying His word.

why is that so hard to deduce?

InesQor:

You seem to be delighting yourself in putting the cart before the horse.

Christians DON'T believe in Jesus Christ BY obeying His Word. Rather they OBEY His Word because they BELIEVE in Jesus Christ.

We BELIEVE and therefore we get baptized. If in between believing and baptism we are called home, we have fulfilled the pre-requisite for the reward of our faithful belief, accounted as our righteousness.

I see how you skilfully dodged the scenario about preaching to paraplegic "vegetables" who desire to be born again but cannot get off their beds and get baptized. Una well done.

nopuqeater:

Noetic and InesQor: While you are fighting each other, by Allah's Will, I am please to see your confusions. I am here presenting to you Paul's cancellation of Baptism by a disbeliever lik me marrying a "Chrstian". Paul also killed, the belief in Jesus, yet as a disbeliever who at least dies while maried to Christian is "Purified and Sanctified" and oh, no Hell but easy stroll to Christian Heaven. So men, I am good to go; With the global financial situation, we muslims will marry christian spouses and call it a night, while our children are muslims, too. Jesus and Paul will have to argue this one out between themselves;

1 Corinthians 7:12-14 (King James Version)

12But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

InesQor:

@noetic: It is obvious that you miss my points. I am not talking about someone who REFUSES to get baptized, but someone who one way or the other, does not get to get baptized. An inadvertent case, and not a deliberate case of disobedience. Does the person go to hell?

noetic16:

There are two things here.

1. We get saved by faith. Faith is however not an abstract thing. The will of God is to substantiate our faith from belief to reality. . . .this process entails a walk with God. This walk starts at the point of salvation.

2. The ticket for that walk is BAPTISM. baptism is a physical expression of the faith we have in the death and resurrection of JC. its NOT baptism in itself but the OBEDIENCE involved.

In the same vain, I could ask u, that since muslims claim to believe in JC. . ,  are they also saved?

Here's my tuppence:

If your argument is along the lines of James in his epistle

Jas 2:17-18  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

then one can argue that a genuinely saved man or woman will be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ. But then one is not saved or regenerated by the act of baptism but rather by faith in Jesus of Nazareth. As the scriptures do testify:

Eph 2:8,9  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 4:1-3  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

aletheia:

@noetic
I don't see how some of what you wrote above is different from what I wrote earlier viz:then one can argue that a genuinely saved man or woman will be baptized in obedience to the command of Christ. But then one is not saved or regenerated by the act of baptism but rather by faith in Jesus of Nazareth. As the scriptures do testify:

But I will disagree with you on this assertion: The ticket for that walk is BAPTISM.
What then do you make of this scripture:Is baptism the ticket through which we come to Father? Were Enoch and Abraham baptized in their walk with God

aletheia:

^^^
And so we arrive at the point that: faith---->obedience
These acts of obedience arising from faith will include; being baptized, loving your neighbour, etc.
One is not justified by baptism or other "works" but by FAITH. And FAITH will be obvious in OBEDIENCE. As Jesus says make a TREE GOOD and its FRUIT will be GOOD.

I think the difference in positions arise from you holding that baptism is an act of faith (obedience) that is absolutely necessary, in contrast to those who would hold that baptism is just an act of faith like others such as loving the brethren (please correct me if I am wrong). There is a dynamic tension here which needs to be borne in mind when considering questions of this sort.

noetic16:

Bro, I have said this over and over again.
Faith is exercised by obedience to JC . . , .[size=14pt]JC commands that all who are saved MUST be baptised[/size]. . . , baptism is therefore an expression of faith.

True talk friend. . . . that's what the Christians always do .

afiq:

The anti-baptism folks will say anything(even twisting the Bible) to defend their ignorance.

noetic16:


Bro, I have said this over and over again.
Faith is exercised by obedience to JC . . ,  .JC commands that all who are saved MUST be baptised. . . , baptism is therefore an expression of faith.

streetwize:

The answer to this topic is very simple
There are two stages of christainity
1 Acceptance
2 Works

Acceptance depends on the presence of faith and invitation of christ to become our lord and saviour
Anything we do after this is our works
Jesus christ ordered us to do so many things after getting saved one of which is get baptised, are you guys telling me that if we do not do any of these deeds then we would go to hell? maybe if we do not go to church or preach the gospel or something??
Where is the logic in this??
The Bible clearly states
For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast.
In other words God gives you salvation if you believe in him, that you get baptised does not add or subtract from your salvation.
Baptism is another commandment, law like tithe or preaching, you should do it, but it does not affect your salvation in any way. . .

you have made one very controversial point and one which is just arrant nonesense
controversial -  that christ commands all who are saved that they MUST be baptised
nonesense -  That the absence expression of a certain something negates its presence

Your argument here is firstly a fallacious slippery slope, because you argue without any conviction of sorts that obedience would neccessarily follow faith. . . Is this really true??
Secondly, could you not feel something without expressing it??

I love my mum
I could show her this by maybe washing the dishes
So if I do not wash the dishes. . . . then do you conclude that i do not love my mum??

This is a clear logical fallacy termed the confusion of cause and effect!!

Also, allow me to fool around with your statement a bit
you say:
JC commands that all who are saved MUST be baptised
you've basically said this

1 All those who are saved
2 Get baptised
Look at it this way

Tattoo artist gives rules in his shop
1 All those who get tattoos
2 Cover it with a nylon for a day

If when I get my tattoo I do not for some reason cover it. . . . . I have no tattoo?

noetic16:

in other words . . , your salvation remains intact, even when u disobey God. . . . , can this be more ridiculous?
how EXACTLY does statement two constitute nonesense?

Can anything be more dumber
John 14:15 . . . , 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command.