davidylan:

you and i both know that what is preached in WoF circles is not that Jesus was able to meet his needs. What they say is that Jesus had over and in abundance which they now use to justify a life of excess and wanton luxury.

Is the discussion strictly about WoF circles or our own thoughts on whether Jesus was 'rich' or not?

If Christ was able to meet His needs then why did He talk about not having a home to lay his head? Why did he need a fish to pay his taxes?

Not having a home to lay his head can have numerous connotations - one might mean he was focussed solely on accomplishing his mission on earth and kept moving from place to place, hence he didn't have the luxury of bedding down roots in one location.

Besides, when it says he didn't have a home to lay his head, does that mean he lived on the streets or lacked a place to sleep? It may simply mean he didn't own a home, which might not have been necessary given the short time he was here on earth.

Secondly, the mere fact that he[i] paid [/i]his taxes (be it from a fish or other sources) means the need was met - which to me is the crucial aspect, not the means by which that need has been met per se.

So many words.

@Debosky:

Was Jesus rich?

nuclearboy:

So many words.

@Debosky:

Was Jesus rich?

Inasmuch as being rich means he could meet all his needs via natural and supernatural means (my definition) then yes.

debosky:

Is the discussion strictly about WoF circles or our own thoughts on whether Jesus was 'rich' or not? . . .

The discussion  is first and foremost about what the bible teaches ---------- as far as we can ascertain with the best of our intellectual and spiritual faculties. However, tied to that is combating twisting of the truth of the Bible --- especially when such twisting is with a sinister motive.

Historically, the most respected Church/Spiritual leaders, theologians, scholars and historians have held the consensus that Jesus was poor materially. See the example given by davidylan that only a poor family will sacrifice turtle doves instead of a lamb; also, read the article I linked to and see further discussion of the community and background into which He was born; the biblical account of His life also show no indication that He was materially rich. This is the biblical teaching. If this is being twisted there is no choice but to combat it; in any event, combating it is unavoidable unless one fails to declare the truth revealed by the Bible.

That He had his needs met is beside the point; of course He had his needs met. But that is not to say He was rich. Overriding all of these in any event is that the Bible says expressly that He was poor or how else do you want to interpret 2 Cor. 8:9?

Enigma:

That He had his needs met is beside the point; of course He had his needs met. But that is not to say He was rich. Overriding all of these in any event is that the Bible says expressly that He was poor or how else do you want to interpret 2 Cor. 8:9?

The same verse says he was rich then he became poor for our sakes. So if anything is overriding, the 'original' state of Jesus (i.e rich) should be what we look to.

debosky:

The same verse says he was rich then he became poor for our sakes. So if anything is overriding, the 'original' state of Jesus (i.e rich) should be what we look to.

So when and where was He rich? AND when and where was he poor?

what is WoF?

~Lady~:

what is WoF?

Wolves over Flocks

WoF are wolves among and heading throngs of flock calling themselves Christians in various parts of the world.

The WoF movement is otherwise known as the Word of Farce Faith movement.

~Lady~:

what is WoF?

The Word of Faith movement aka the prosperity "gospel"; see http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

Yes jesus was rich and still is, For our sake he became poor on earth, before then did you really think he was a pauper?

jennykadry:

Yes jesus was rich and still is, For our sake he became poor on earth, before then did you really think he was a pauper?

i believe the question was whether Jesus was rich during his time on earth.
he was born into a middle-class family at best. are you measuring the wealth of jesus on monetary terms?

^^^ The evidence actually says he was born into a poor, not middle class, family.

Long time, Bawo!

Nothing to do with the original question by OP about whether Jesus was rich or not but rather how much was the gold given to Jesus worth?

mama-gee:

Damn, that quote is the most incorrect quote ever coming from a Pastor. . .
God doesn't select people who get wealthy, it's just that everyone's destiny differs from others.

God selected David to be king even though Jonathan should have been the rightful heir to the throne. God selected Jeremiah to be prophet even from his mother's womb . . . and on and on and on . . .

read your bibles.

Enigma:

So when and where was He rich? AND when and where was he poor?

I'd like you to answer the question; can you shed more light on the verse you highlighted?

As I've already stated, all I am concerned with is that he was able to meet his needs while on earth.

Saying Jesus was rich or Jesus was poor is not really here nor there - he had rich followers one of whom owned an expensive tomb, he had Christians after him who were wealthy and used their wealth to support the ministry.

So if the aim is to find a means to say Christians are not meant to be wealthy by reference to Jesus' state on earth, there is evidence right in the bible that defeats that notion.

Secondly, if Jesus was indeed 'poor', it serves to indicate that we should be rich because for our sake he became poor or does it not?

Once we begin to try to define the societal level he belonged to, the extent or otherwise of his finances, we begin to get bogged down in an attempt to make a qualitative judgement on his level of 'wealth'.

There is no doubt that Jesus' life did NOT in any way support a mindless pursuit of wealth - that is one thing we know for sure.

@Debosky:

Aren't you just being legalistic here?

We say its wrong to manipulate scripture to say "Jesus was rich on earth" and use that AS A MEANS for the mindless pursuit of wealth - that position that you have now taken.

We all know the position Jesus holds/held and yes, we should be rich (if we work and deserve it) because He was porr "for us" BUT by dint of labor rather than manipulation of God's Word.

Good talk. A pastor I knew was showing off and told me how he embarked on prayer for a man and God blessed the man with a N100 million contract. I wondered why God would do that. The man would probably build a mansion or buy expensive cars and other monuments to his ego. What has that to do with God? Somewhere in the world is someone struggling to eat, but 'God' seems to have no interest in those. No, he's only interested in issuing you mansions and cars.

I don't think povery or wealth says anything about your walk with God or your religion or lack of it, merely your opportunities or hard work or talent for acquiring money. There seems to be instances where God gives individuals wealth, but in those cases they're entrusted with things God wants to see done, and they know the money isn't theirs but is a trust. God's blessings are mostly spiritual. Joy, peace, faith, hope, love, trust, security. You can have money and not enjoy it. It's been proven time and again it doesn't add a jot to happiness, and the wealthy commit suicide just like the poor. If not more so sef. "Jesus was rich so we should be rich?" Nothing wrong with wealth but you waste your life if you make its pursuit your goal. Sometimes you have to wonder if some of these pastors actually believe a God exists.

Mad_Max:

Good talk. A pastor I knew was showing off and told me how he embarked on prayer for a man and God blessed the man with a N100 million contract. I wondered why God would do that. The man would probably build a mansion or buy expensive cars and other monuments to his ego. What has that to do with God? Somewhere in the world is someone struggling to eat, but 'God' seems to have no interest in those. No, he's only interested in issuing you mansions and cars.

I don't think povery or wealth says anything about your walk with God or your religion or lack of it, merely your opportunities or hard work or talent for acquiring money. There seems to be instances where God gives individuals wealth, but in those cases they're entrusted with things God wants to see done, and they know the money isn't theirs but is a trust. God's blessings are mostly spiritual. Joy, peace, faith, hope, love, trust, security. You can have money and not enjoy it. It's been proven time and again it doesn't add a jot to happiness, and the wealthy commit suicide just like the poor. If not more so sef. "Jesus was rich so we should be rich?" Nothing wrong with wealth but you waste your life if you make its pursuit your goal. Sometimes you have to wonder if some of these pastors actually believe a God exists.

Oh yeah they do . . . its just that their "Gawd" seems to be a genie who only surfaces to provide for their greed.

davidylan:

Oh yeah they do . . . its just that their "Gawd" seems to be a genie who only surfaces to provide for their greed.

And the genie is remote controlled by them speaking it into existence. He doesn't just "surface" but rather is commanded to appear to provide for stated greed.

debosky:

I'd like you to answer the question; can you shed more light on the verse you highlighted?

The passage in question is 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

This passage comes in the background that the apostle Paul was exhorting the Corinthian Christians to make a collection for other poor Christians. So in one sense the passage was concerned about material things; some will abuse this aspect but I will leave those for now.

Paul makes his case with on why the Corinthians should give to the poor fellow saints liberally with several arguments. First he told them that Macedonian Christians who were even poorer than the Corinthians had given generously even amidst their own great trial of affliction and deep poverty. So your pastor comes to you and say Brother X needs money badly for an operation, the saints have been donating generously; little brother John who is a student gave generously of his allowance; how much you that you have a big job and income.

Paul's second argument was more powerful. He says as Christians, you should be generous to your poor fellow saints because you yourselves have received a generosity beyond measure. The generosity you have received is from Jesus Christ; this generosity is that for your sake Jesus' who was "rich" became "poor" that you might be "rich".

A. Jesus was "rich" ----- where and when? Well Jesus came from heaven, the throne of God did He not? Have you heard of "riches in glory"? Can you compare any earthly riches with that? The wealth of the Lagos state, Nigeria, Africa, the World all combined ------ can they match that? That is where and when Jesus was rich!

B. Jesus became poor ----- where and when? In leaving the throne of heaven to come to earth alone He became poor. Secondly He chose to be born into a poor background and family as we have already shown.    

C. That you might become "rich"? ----- This refers to the "riches of glory" that awaits the believer in the coming kingdom of God! Not to earthly, material riches. Otherwise why was a collection being taken for the poor Christians? Why did Paul describe the Macedonian Christians as in "deep poverty"?

OK back to Paul's argument: his point here is that you for whom Christ became poor that you might be rich (riches in glory incomparable to material riches), you should show gratitude by being generous with your material possessions. You who have received spiritual riches should not be stingy with material things.

 

debosky:
As I've already stated, all I am concerned with is that he was able to meet his needs while on earth.

Of course He had His needs met. A lot of people who have their "needs" met today are not rich by any means! How does one have his needs met, biblically, anyway? Have you come across 1 Tim 6? Have a read and see what it means to have your needs met; you will also see that that passage which shows how to have your needs met warns seriously about pursuing material riches. What is the point here? Having your needs met is not the same as being rich!

debosky:
Saying Jesus was rich or Jesus was poor is not really here nor there - he had rich followers one of whom owned an expensive tomb, he had Christians after him who were wealthy and used their wealth to support the ministry.

So? That meant He was rich? And when did the owner of the tomb come on the scene from what we are told in the Bible?

debosky:
So if the aim is to find a means to say Christians are not meant to be wealthy by reference to Jesus' state on earth, there is evidence right in the bible that defeats that notion.

I'm disappointed by this line; who here has suggested that anyone should be poor? On this forum, people have repeatedly said that Christianity is not particularly relevant to whether a person is rich or not! Read Philemon. Philemon was a Christian, rich and the slave owner of Onesimus. Onesimus was a Christian, poor and the slave of Onesimus Philemon.

debosky:
Secondly, if Jesus was indeed 'poor', it serves to indicate that we should be rich because for our sake he became poor or does it not?  

Again another disappointing line; anyway, I have dealt with this at length above.

debosky:
Once we begin to try to define the societal level he belonged to, the extent or otherwise of his finances, we begin to get  bogged down in an attempt to make a qualitative judgement on his level of 'wealth'.

No, we are studying the Bible to get its teaching accurately and to match our doctrine and practice accordingly!

debosky:
There is no doubt that Jesus' life did NOT in any way support a mindless pursuit of wealth - that is one thing we know for sure.

Thank God for little mercies!!!

"Gawd". Lol.

debosky:

Saying Jesus was rich or Jesus was poor is not really here nor there - he had rich followers one of whom owned an expensive tomb, he had Christians after him who were wealthy and used their wealth to support the ministry.

Here is an example of what Christ thought of the riches owned by His wealthy followers . . . Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

When you wake up in the morning, instead of praying that God makes you wealthy, please make this prayer- pray God to make you poor because it is not His wish for His children to be rich. Hypocrites. If you beleive it is wrong for you to pursue wealth, abeg, live all your life pursuing poverty, so that at the end of the day, you will find yourself right in the most coveted place of all - heaven.

@ Enigma

Thanks for your detailed explanation, I was blessed by it.

Enigma:

Of course He had His needs met. A lot of people who have their "needs" met today are not rich by any means! How does one have his needs met, biblically, anyway? Have you come across 1 Tim 6? Have a read and see what it means to have your needs met; you will also see that that passage which shows how to have your needs met warns seriously about pursuing material riches. What is the point here? Having your needs met is not the same as being rich!

It is a matter of interpretation as I've repeated a number of times here - I haven't said that is the 'universal' definition of being rich, but my take on the subject. I have no issues with you holding a different view, especially when it comes to distortions by some preachers.

So? That meant He was rich? And when did the owner of the tomb come on the scene from what we are told in the Bible?

You miss my point - this comment, including the ones that follow are directed at anyone whose interpretation is that Jesus being poor means Christians are to be poor. It was not directed at you in any way. Besides, the we are clearly told Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man.

I'm disappointed by this line; who here has suggested that anyone should be poor? On this forum, people have repeatedly said that Christianity is not particularly relevant to whether a person is rich or not! Read Philemon. Philemon was a Christian, rich and the slave owner of Onesimus. Onesimus was a Christian, poor and the slave of Onesimus Philemon.

Again this wasn't referring to you, but on this same forum people have argued that Christians should be poor - all I have attempted to do is to avoid the pitfalls at both extremes that want to specify a particular financial state is the 'one size fits all' for Christians. In the spirit of accurate doctrine, we cannot disprove one wrongly held notion and allow another to go unchallenged.

No, we are studying the Bible to get its teaching accurately and to match our doctrine and practice accordingly!

I am fully with you on this - BUT there is always a risk that we will read our predetermined opinions and try to force fit them into what we read in the bible. I am not immune from this either, hence my note of warning. All I warn against is going down rat holes or reading more than there is into a biblical account all in the name of 'proving' a point.

I have no issues with getting biblical teaching right.

davidylan:

Here is an example of what Christ thought of the riches owned by His wealthy followers . . . Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

I guess you missed out on the receive manifold more IN THIS PRESENT TIME bit David

davidylan:


Here is an example of what Christ thought of the riches owned by His wealthy followers . . .

Matt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee. 29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

@^^

On the contrary Matt 19:21 and Luke 18:28 are narrating the same incident . . .

It is not a view on the wealthy and righteous

Matt 19:21 is about Jesus seeing through the heart of an overly self-assertive wealthy man with misplaced priorities

- His earthly wealth comes first before God and the kingdom

Luke 18:28 is about Jesus reassuring Peter following his outburst after Jesus had earlier said it's terribly hard for rich people to get into God's kingdom

nuclearboy:

@Debosky:

Aren't you just being legalistic here?

We say its wrong to manipulate scripture to say "Jesus was rich on earth" and use that AS A MEANS for the mindless pursuit of wealth - that position that you have now taken.

I don't think I am being legalistic in the least - I'm just calling for a clear understanding of what we are trying to establish in the scriptures, and its implication for how we live our lives.

As I asked before replying further, if the question is not simply from a WoF manipulation, we should be able to give our own views on the issue.

We all know the position Jesus holds/held and yes, we should be rich (if we work and deserve it) because He was porr "for us" BUT by dint of labor rather than manipulation of God's Word.

I don't support manipulation of God's Word, and as I mentioned when I first entered this discourse, the question itself is a bit redundant for me personally.

Talking about 'deserving' it, that is an entirely different matter - God doesn't always give us what we 'deserve', at least not because of us 'working' or 'dint of labour'. For example Ecclesiastes 2:6 states:

To the man who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness, but to the sinner he gives the task of gathering and storing up wealth to hand it over to the one who pleases God.

Sorry to muddy the waters as it were, but things don't always happen because we 'deserve' them.

@debosky

Just to pick up on a few points from your last two posts:

1. I appreciate you did not direct the related points to me but I doubt you will find anyone here who says being a Christian means you should be poor. If you can find even one, I will apologise to you here publicly.

2. Regarding Joseph of Arimathea: ok he was rich ---- but could you point to (a) when he became acquainted with Jesus, (b) how close he was to Jesus before the crucifixion and (c) what else he ever gave to Jesus except for the tomb? Secondly, that Jesus had to "borrow" someone's tomb at his death -- does that not indicate that he and his family probably didn't have their own tomb --- and therefore probably was poor?

3. Regarding your post to davidylan: so how many people IN THIS PRESENT TIME have ever received a hundredfold wives? a hundredfold children? a hundredfold brethren? a hundredfold houses? a hundredfold parents?  See? We can all play that game --- which is why we shouldn't be playing the game but should be seeking to make the most truthful meaning of scripture.

Enigma:

@debosky

Just to pick up on a few points from your last two posts:

1. I appreciate you did not direct the related points to me but I doubt you will find anyone here who says being a Christian means you should be poor. If you can find even one, I will apologise to you here publicly.

I see no reason to dwell on 'proof' as it were - my goal was to reiterate that we should avoid veering off to either extreme of the discussion. In any case I am not offended so there is no need for an apology.

2. Regarding Joseph of Arimathea: ok he was rich ---- but could you point to (a) when he became acquainted with Jesus, (b) how close he was to Jesus before the crucifixion and (c) what else he ever gave to Jesus except for the tomb? Secondly, that Jesus had to "borrow" someone's tomb at his death -- does that not indicate that he and his family probably didn't have their own tomb --- and therefore probably was poor?

Again we risk getting into minutiae that may or may not benefit us. All we know is that he was a disciple of Jesus as stated in Matthew 27:57-60. How long or short he had been a disciple, or his 'closeness' to Jesus or how much he gave is open to conjecture and likely immaterial.

Secondly, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, the NEED for a tomb was met, regardless of HOW it was met. This has consistently been my perspective on determining whether he was 'rich' or not. Whether his family had their own tomb or not is a matter for conjecture, which I am not inclined to dabble in.

3. Regarding your post to davidylan: so how many people IN THIS PRESENT TIME have ever received a hundredfold wives? a hundredfold children? a hundredfold brethren? a hundredfold houses? a hundredfold parents?  See? We can all play that game --- which is why we shouldn't be playing the game but should be seeking to make the most truthful meaning of scripture.

I am not playing any games Enigma. If we are to go by the written word, that is what Jesus promised - it is between you and God to establish what extent or applicability that has to you. Unless of course, you have a different interpretation for those words?

Besides, I don't understand your comment about the 'most truthful' meaning of scripture - what is the 'most truthful' meaning of the quoted passage?

Issues like this should be simple and straight forward- identifying and exposing lions in sheep clothing. But Nigerians are so religous, emotional and sentimental they can't see or hear anymore! It's appalling!
  To begin with, the poster never said pursuing wealth is a sin/crime, but it's so glaring that most pastors nowadays operate exactly like con men (419)! The only difference is that d 419 victim gets to know he's been duped but d 'pastors victim never knows, instead d buck is passed back to him. He's told to keep believing, hoping , watering his seed, increasing his faith etc (The moment d victim voices his duobts, he's told his unbelief has killed his seed/miracle).They tell u to 'give to God first' (sow into their lives) if u want anything from God. They go as far as discouraging pple from sowing into d lives of d needy, saying u will not get good returns. That u only get good returns when u sow into their lives. This is d teaching of d rccg open heavens devotional (i actually opened a thread on that-'pastors=priest & GO=high priest -RCCG').
  The next thing, they run to d old testament and start giving examples of d widow dat gave d prophet, king solomon's 1000 sacrifice etc. They blatantly ignore d examples of Jesus- He healed/gave/blessed d pple without collecting a dime, instead he fed them after healing and giving them d word.
  I could go on and on but truth is i'm tired- tired of talking & arguing with pple who see and hear these things ike my very self but choose t be blind & deaf! Why are pple (nigerians especially) so gullible? I think poverty and desperation to get rich quick make pple vulnerable and that's why they always fall victim to these pastors con men.

davidylan:

God selected David to be king even though Jonathan should have been the rightful heir to the throne. God selected Jeremiah to be prophet even from his mother's womb . . . and on and on and on . . .

read your bibles.

you're talking of a totally different issue, God selects people to to rule a nation based on their Clean heart not wealth. . .
He doesn't select people who would acquire material wealth, that's what the poster is referring at. . .
Rather he wants us to be Spiritually wealthy to acquire the Kingdom of God.
Quote from the Bible "Store up your wealth for the Kingdom of God, where no robbers would steal it nor insects would eat it".