AkunnaTochi:
Simple question and you rigamarole. Who was given the keys - Jesus or Peter?

I have replied. The heavens are yet to fall .

Themandator:



I have replied. The heavens are yet to fall .

No dear. The heavens won't fall at all. We'll rather have more of your regurgitated anti Catholic nonsense. Just continue.

Themandator:



I have replied. The heavens are yet to fall .

No dear. The heavens won't fall at all. We'll rather have more of your regurgitated anti Catholic nonsense. Just continue.

Ogashub:
A typical Nigerian non Catholic who is drained with his or her own church doctrine will wear red tomorrow and majestically walk into her or his lover's house to wish him happy valentines day.

But every other thing about the catholic doctrine is paganized by you and your church folks.

Y'all have suddenly forgotten that Valentine is a saint In the catholic world that is usually celebrated every 14th of February, just like other catholic saints.

But tomorrow you will come online and tell us how Catholics worship Mary, you get angry when she is being celebrated. But Tomorrow, you will be buying gifts in the name of valentine.

All the Pentecostal churches that bash the catholic doctrines and saints are the ones who will even celebrate the valentine the most.

But there you are, saying you know so much about Christianity.

Now, tell me that saint valentine is a saint in your own church, I am listening, how?

valentine is like Christmas!!! Christianity is one!!! So it shouldnt suprise u that the Pentecostal churches n catholic churches would hv things in common!! There will surely be similarities n differences!! Catholic church was the first church recorded in history!!! So most teaches startdd from there!! But innovation n more understanding sprung up the Pentecostal churches!!! Funny enough muslims celebrate Valentine too!!! So right now valentine has nothing to do with church or religion!!

paxonel:

Personally, i do not criticize any church that canonize or venerate any saint so long they preach Jesus Christ. The same why i also wish that catholic baptism should be open to pentecostals as well, for the sake of Jesus Christ

What is Catholic baptism that should be open to Pentecostals. And who is a Pentecostal?

Shugavee:
valentine is like Christmas!!! Christianity is one!!! So it shouldnt suprise u that the Pentecostal churches n catholic churches would hv things in common!! There will surely be similarities n differences!! Catholic church was the first church recorded in history!!! So most teaches startdd from there!! But innovation n more understanding sprung up the Pentecostal churches!!!

The church was first Pentecostal As recorded in Acts 1:8.

Themandator:




The church was first Pentecostal As recorded in Acts 1:8.

really Educate me

Shugavee:
really Educate me

AV, Acts 1:8: "8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


What Jesus Christ promised above was fulfilled in Acts 2:1 down

AV, Acts 2:1-4: "1 And when [1] the day of Pentecost was fully come, [2] they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and [3] it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And [5] they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began [4] to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


There was no Catholic Church but disciples and followers on the day of pentecost. Catholic Church is a fusion of Roman cultural practices and heritage and Christianity. In summary, it is a diluted culture of the Roman empire sold to the rest of the world through brute force and inquisition. It was born in the Roman empire.


Neither Jesus nor Peter entered Rome let alone set up church there.

Themandator:



AV, Acts 1:8: "8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


What Jesus Christ promised above was fulfilled in Acts 2:1 down

AV, Acts 2:1-4: "1 And when [1] the day of Pentecost was fully come, [2] they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and [3] it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And [5] they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began [4] to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


There was no Catholic Church but disciples and followers on the day of pentecost. Catholic Church is a fusion of Roman cultural practices and heritage and Christianity. In summary, it is a diluted culture of the Roman empire sold to the rest of the world through brute force and inquisition. It was born in the Roman empire.


Neither Jesus nor Peter entered Rome let alone set up church there.

makes sense!!!

Themandator:



What is Catholic baptism that should be open to Pentecostals. And who is a Pentecostal?

Google pentecostalism!
Catholic church do not share communion to christians of other sects in their mass, therefore there is cleavage in the body of Christ

Austinoiz:


Your argument needs a bottle of beer to be strong. Oh the Church was called Universal then abi
OK let's buy your blind argument, now tell me if he wasn't a priest or perhaps if your Pentecostal church has been able to canonize a saint up till date.

Saint canonization is a tradition of your church not scriptural injunction. By the way, Saint is not a title for dead men and women. Christians are called and referred to as saints of God.
Declaring a dead person a saint adds no value to his standing before God... It won't lead to his or her promotion to PA to God.

It is nothing but earthly busy body activities without no value to the living or the dead, whatsoever. Even praying to him is a waste of precious time.

paxonel:

Google pentecostalism!
Catholic church do not share communion to christians of other sects in their mass, therefore there is cleavage in the body of Christ

If I am replying the same person, I ask you what baptism of the Catholic Church should be opened to pentecostals and what and who is a pentecostal?

Therfore this Communion reply is neither answer or an attempt to reply or explain Catholic baptism that should be made open to pentecostals.

AkunnaTochi:

No dear. The heavens won't fall at all. We'll rather have more of your regurgitated anti Catholic nonsense. Just continue.

It is the resort of many of your kinds to leave the substance to chase shadows.... Even a Muslim can do better..... Your church says Peter is the rock in which the church is founded. I ask and expect that anyone coming across my statement would educate me why it is so, from the scripture but no. It is nonsense because you have no sense to counter it.... Let me wait for father Ubenidictus, he has more knowledge than many of you who call as themselves Catholic without even an iota of scripture to defend their beliefs.


Why should anyone sing Christ is my solid rock the root of my soul recreation and still make the mistake of referring to Peter as a rock. Sing rocks of ages cleft for me let me hire myself in thee and comments sacrilege by referring to Peter as the rock. Is he sharing title with Jesus Christ?



This is the conversation in this thread even between Rev. Father Ubenidictus and myself if you care to make contribution. Sensible and scriptural contribution:

paxonel:

The catholic church was seen as the universal church at the time saint Valentine lived. There was no Protestants at that time talkless of pentecostals, therefore saint valentine was saint of the universal church, which includes all churches, be it catholic, Protestants or pentecostals

My mention:
Pentecostals were the first sets of Christians after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. .... Afterwards , the catholic religion came on board and then Martin chanced in the scripture and discovered a gap between the church doctrine and the scripture and turned a Protestant against those doctrines and traditions.

Catholics were first formerly Pentecostals until the persecution of the church by the Romans led to a compromise by some of the Christian leaders which became Catholic church.

Protestant s are former Catholics whereas , Pentecostals are original Christians


Another contributor asked me this question:

Dnaz:

What you are saying is that Contrary to Jesus's word that gates of hell at a time spanning 1500 yes did prevail over His church

And I replied thus:

The great commission started after the death of Christ, with the release of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost....Acts 1:8 ..., That was when Christianity was born as Pentecostals. ...People who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The statement of Jesus wasn't address to Peter as a prophecy hinge on him for the name Peter itself is not rock but stone. And there was no prophecy anywhere for telling of any Peter, being the bedrock of the church. ..... Everything about Jesus was preceded by prophecies from the prophets of old until John the Baptist.... Never was there a prophecy concerning Peter.


When Jesus made his statement about the rock , he was referring to himself as he is the only rock rejected that became the main rock


Then Ubenidictus mentioned with this question:

Ubenedictus:


so who was given the keys in Matthew 16?
a. Jesus
b.Peter

My response

If you know the meaning of the beginning word, AND in verse nineteen you would have unraveled the rock, the building and the key(mysteries of the kingdom)


The next mention below wasn't from him but a busy body

AkunnaTochi:
Simple question and you rigamarole. Who was given the keys - Jesus or Peter?

I replied him, Peter and he returned with this reply below:

Ubenedictus:


so Jesus said

Simon bar Jonah flesh and blood didn't reveal this to you but my father in heaven----- to Peter.

Jesus said

you shall be called cephas (Rock in Aramaic) ------ to Peter

then he suddenly jumps and start talking about himself.

and on this cephas I'll build my ecclesia.

then he jumps back to Peter and says

I will give you the keys of the kingdom.


sorry that doesn't make sense unless you are already biased, how come Jesus shift from peter to himself and back to Peter without indicating within the same sentence.



but If you wish to continue with such untrue exegesis just to proof your point OK, it doesn't affect what Catholics believe.



this is the important stuff

what do you understand by the biblical phrase"keys of the kingdom".?

remember to place precept on precept

And off course I wasn't going to let the fallacy go unchallenged:


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it


If Jesus was referring to Peter ,he wouldn't say ...upon this rock but upon you since he,Peter ,was right there with him... He was talking about a distant rock Hut a very present one.


And then the next verse would not have read ....thus: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


The ground can't have the key to what is built on it for it useless to it because it is immovable, unshakable and has access as a foundation to every secret in the house. The ground owns the house. See through it like a naked cadaver and correct whatever it wants corrects and withdraws support whenever, leading to the collapse of the house


access to the kingdom was granted Peter but the founder and base remains in Christ . ...the church is the kingdom of God on the Earth and the sure rock is Jesus not Peter .mysteries or revelation for accessing the kingdom ...the secret was given to Peter and the apostles with him


Here are cross references to this rock matter ....

1, Psa 118:22 ....2 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner


2, Isa 28:16 .... Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste

3, Isa 33:20......Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken


4, Joh 1:42 ...

5, 1Co 3:11 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone........this is your rock assertion ..... Matthews was written in Hebrews, a sister language to Aramaic .... Peter is stone not rock.

6, [Eph 2:20] ........ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



Help me with a supportive biblical proof of peterr being the rock ... In the mouth of two is a thing confirmed


NB: of you are not convinced about who the rock is and on who the church if Christ is founded then I doubt if any discussion of the keys would make any sense to you.

paxonel:

Google pentecostalism!
Catholic church do not share communion to christians of other sects in their mass, therefore there is cleavage in the body of Christ

If I am replying the same person, I ask you what baptism of the Catholic Church should be opened to pentecostals and what and who is a pentecostal?

Therfore this Communion reply is neither answer or an attempt to reply or explain Catholic baptism that should be made open to pentecostals.

Austinoiz:


Your argument needs a bottle of beer to be strong. Oh the Church was called Universal then abi
OK let's buy your blind argument, now tell me if he wasn't a priest or perhaps if your Pentecostal church has been able to canonize a saint up till date.

Saint canonization is a tradition of your church not scriptural injunction. By the way, Saint is not a title for dead men and women. Christians are called and referred to as saints of God.
Declaring a dead person a saint adds no value to his standing before God... It won't lead to his or her promotion to PA to God.

It is nothing but earthly busy body activities without no value to the living or the dead, whatsoever. Even praying to him is a waste of precious time.

Shugavee:
really Educate me

Now make sensible contribution. Don't hope to reply or bulletin.i was once involved .. I have gone past that level of cut and join knowledge by the help of the Holy Spirit.

Themandator:



If I am replying the same person, I ask you what baptism of the Catholic Church should be opened to pentecostals

I meant to say communion, not baptism. Communion should be opened to all christians irrespective of your sect.

and what and who is a pentecostal?

Any sect in christianity emphasizing the working and movement of the holy spirit as it was in the days of the Pentecost, who broke out from the Protestants

paxonel:

I meant to say communion, not baptism. Communion should be opened to all christians irrespective of your sect.

Any sect in christianity emphasizing the working and movement of the holy spirit as it was in the days of the Pentecost, who broke out from the Protestants

Pentecostals couldn't have broken away from protestants when there was in fact, nothing like protestants or protestanism in the scripture but pentecostals... The origin of pentecost is found in Acts 2 from verse 1

Themandator:



Pentecostals couldn't have broken away from protestants when there was in fact, nothing like protestants or protestanism in the scripture but pentecostals... The origin of pentecost is found in Acts 2 from verse 1

And you agreed that at a time, Paul landed in Rome and there was eventual introduction of the Roman ordinances and rituals from their idolatory temples into the church, which became what is known as the Roman catholic today?
And that the Roman catholic dominated Europe for centuries as the only church which had authority to the scripts until there was a protest that led to establishment of the church in England( Anglican) and the likes of Methodist, Presbyterian, etc?
Where was Martin Luther at the time?

Martin Luther who championed the current day pentecostalism only came up at the middle of the fourteenth century, that was even after king James of England or Anglican took hold of a copy of the script after the fall of the Roman empire.

So what are we saying?
The current day pentecostalism only came up after the fall of the Roman empire, not the era of early christians of the bible.

Themandator:



AV, Acts 1:8: "8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


What Jesus Christ promised above was fulfilled in Acts 2:1 down

AV, Acts 2:1-4: "1 And when [1] the day of Pentecost was fully come, [2] they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and [3] it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And [5] they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began [4] to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."


There was no Catholic Church but disciples and followers on the day of pentecost. Catholic Church is a fusion of Roman cultural practices and heritage and Christianity. In summary, it is a diluted culture of the Roman empire sold to the rest of the world through brute force and inquisition. It was born in the Roman empire.


Neither Jesus nor Peter entered Rome let alone set up church there.

Acts 2:1-4: "1 And when [1] the day of Pentecost was fully come, [2] they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and [3] it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And [5] they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began [4] to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

The early Church was Pentecostal in the sense that the Church was birthed on the day of Pentecost. That is, the Apostles received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and manifested the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus on the day of Pentecost.
We all know that contemporary Pentecostals are the brainchildren of the 20th century Pentecostal movement and not the direct descendants of the Apostolic Church.

We may never find the term Catholic in the Scriptures because the Early(Apostolic) Church wasn't referred to as Catholic in the Gospels and Epistles. But it truly is Catholic because following the command of our Lord in Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19 to "...go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...", the gospel was taken to the ends of the earth - from Jerusalem to Antioch in Pisidia, Ephesus, Corinth. Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Rome, Nigeria, etc.
Therefore contrary to what you have come to believe, the Catholic(Universal) Christian Church did not begin with and in Rome. Neither is it an unholy marriage of Christian and Pagan practices of Rome. No. The Church started in Jerusalem and got to Rome like it got to the other ends of the Earth.

The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal" comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole". The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

The first recorded usage of the term "Catholic Church" can be found in the letter of Ignatius of Antioch in AD107 to the Christians in Smyrna.

Pentecostalism is simply the early 20th century renewal movement within Protestant Christians. It has nothing to do with the Apostolic lineage of the Church of the Pentecost.

The church of Christ did not get to Rome,as the Roman Catholic Church but simply as witnesses of Christ who the Roman authority took little interest in until they started turning many away from pagan worship through proofs. Then the authorities went on clampdown and persecuted the church which had no central authority but just an assembly of believers for years, confiscating the scriptures and making it illegal to own it.... The scripture was already in circulation around Asia..... Daniel had the book of Jeremiah and was studying already while in prison.....It wasn't in the hands of Catholic Church authority. The old testament was a requirement, more like a catechism amongst the israelites as they were required to mediate upon it, day and night.

It wasn't until Constantine, a war time general became the emperor that a dramatic change occurred in the relationship between the state and the Christian community. He firstly put a stop to the persecution of Christians and then declared citizens right for them. Then they started coming out openly to profess their faith but the emperor had other designs.

He afterwards summoned the different groups to a meeting....the beginning of organised Christianity. Historians tell you that from records, there was no Bishop of Bishops until Constantine introduced it. Constantine demanded as head of government and the pagan culture to have a title equal to his title in his pagan religion....the birth of vicar.... Meaning indirect Christ


When the outcome of this meeting got out to the larger companies of believers, some rejected it the idea that a man who was yet to renounce his pagan worship would assume such title........the return of persecution.... Those who accepted became an arm of the state and were empowered by the state to go after the other believers...... Persecution and inquisition....

The Roman empire, the United States of America of that era did sponsor the spread of catholicism to other parts of the world....that was how the domination came by....state sponsored.... It was not scriptural that led to protest but the content of the scripture which Martin came in contact as a Catholic...... Martin was in Germany protected against at the Catholic wish by the German Princes and elite...... Martin didn't champion pentecostalism for pentecostals are not protesting anything like Martin. What he championed was protestanism.... A church in his honour today is Lutheran church.


Pentecostals are saints who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2..... They received it on the day of pentecost, hence the name pentecostals. What you are meaning to say is the revival. When they became emboldened after the fall of the Roman empire to once again come out publicly to profess their faith.
Currently, in China, there are lots of underground pentecostals movement who refused state regulation of their belive and what and what not to teach in church. Articles have it, that they are more in numbers than the once regulated by government.

paxonel:

And you agreed that at a time, Paul landed in Rome and there was eventual introduction of the Roman ordinances and rituals from their idolatory temples into the church, which became what is known as the Roman catholic today?
And that the Roman catholic dominated Europe for centuries as the only church which had authority to the scripts until there was a protest that led to establishment of the church in England( Anglican) and the likes of Methodist, Presbyterian, etc?
Where was Martin Luther at the time?

Martin Luther who championed the current day pentecostalism only came up at the middle of the fourteenth century, that was even after king James of England or Anglican took hold of a copy of the script after the fall of the Roman empire.

So what are we saying?
The current day pentecostalism only came up after the fall of the Roman empire, not the era of early christians of the bible.

Themandator:
The church of Christ did not get to Rome,as the Roman Catholic Church but simply as witnesses of Christ who the Roman authority took little interest in until they started turning many away from pagan worship through proofs. Then the authorities went on clampdown and persecuted the church which had no central authority but just an assembly of believers for years, confiscating the scriptures and making it illegal to own it.... The scripture was already in circulation around Asia..... Daniel had the book of Jeremiah and was studying already while in prison.....It wasn't in the hands of Catholic Church authority. The old testament was a requirement, more like a catechism amongst the israelites as they were required to mediate upon it, day and night.

It wasn't until Constantine, a war time general became the emperor that a dramatic change occurred in the relationship between the state and the Christian community. He firstly put a stop to the persecution of Christians and then declared citizens right for them. Then they started coming out openly to profess their faith but the emperor had other designs.

He afterwards summoned the different groups to a meeting....the beginning of organised Christianity. Historians tell you that from records, there was no Bishop of Bishops until Constantine introduced it. Constantine demanded as head of government and the pagan culture to have a title equal to his title in his pagan religion....the birth of vicar.... Meaning indirect Christ


When the outcome of this meeting got out to the larger companies of believers, some rejected it the idea that a man who was yet to renounce his pagan worship would assume such title........the return of persecution.... Those who accepted became an arm of the state and were empowered by the state to go after the other believers...... Persecution and inquisition....

The Roman empire, the United States of America of that era did sponsor the spread of catholicism to other parts of the world....that was how the domination came by....state sponsored.... It was not scriptural that led to protest but the content of the scripture which Martin came in contact as a Catholic...... Martin was in Germany protected against at the Catholic wish by the German Princes and elite...... Martin didn't champion pentecostalism for pentecostals are not protesting anything like Martin. What he championed was protestanism.... A church in his honour today is Lutheran church.


Pentecostals are saints who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2..... They received it on the day of pentecost, hence the name pentecostals. What you are meaning to say is the revival. When they became emboldened after the fall of the Roman empire to once again come out publicly to profess their faith.
Currently, in China, there are lots of underground pentecostals movement who refused state regulation of their belive and what and what not to teach in church. Articles have it, that they are more in numbers than the once regulated by government.

Martin Luther was a Roman catholic priest who became a Protestant. And the current day pentecostals derived their doctrines from his teachings yes or no. ?

Current day pentecostals did not originate from the early christian apostles like Peter, Paul and Silas yes or no?

What I'm telling you is that, Martin Luther was not the first Roman catholic that protested. Infact there were Anglican, Presbyterian, and even Qua iboe before Luther came up with Lutheran church.
I attended a Lutheran school and understand the history of the church, so i know exactly what I'm talking about

Themandator:





And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it


If Jesus was referring to Peter ,he wouldn't say ...upon this rock but upon you since he,Peter ,was right there with him


And then the nest verse would not have read ....thus: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


The ground can't have the key to what is built on it for it useless to it because it is immovable, unshakable


access to the kingdom was granted Peter but the founder and base remains in Christ . ...the church is the kingdom of God on the Earth and the sure rock is Jesus not Peter .mysteries or revelation for accessing the kingdom ...the secret was given to Peter and the apostles with him


Here are cross references to this rock matter ....

1, Psa 118:22 ....2 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner


2, Isa 28:16 .... Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste

3, Isa 33:20......Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken


4, Joh 1:42 ...

5, 1Co 3:11 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone........this is your rock assertion ..... Matthews was written in Hebrews, a sister language to Aramaic .... Peter is stone not rock.

6, [Eph 2:20] ........ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



Help me with a supportive biblical proof of peterr being the rock ... In the mouth of two is a thing confirmed


NB: of you are not convinced about who the rock is and on who the church if Christ is founded then I doubt if any discussion of the keys would make any sense to you.

I'm sorry dear but it seem you don't understand scriptures at all.


the Bible says"out of his fullness have we received grace upon grace".


Jesus is the good Shepherd but when he was going to heaven he gave that office to Peter when he said "feed my lambs, tend my sheep". does that mean Jesus is no longer the good Shepherd? no he is still the good Shepherd but he is now shepherding his sheep through the ministry he gave to Peter.
so am I wrong when I say the Lord is my Shepherd?

Jesus said all power has been given to him and the gave his apostles similar powers does that mean he no longer has the power? no! the apostles are exercising their received grace in his name.

in fact revelation tells us that Jesus holds the keys but matt 16 tells us he gave it to Peter, does that mean Jesus has lost the keys and cannot open the door or close it? no Peter has the keys and exercise it through Jesus... so I can teach that Jesus holds the keys and can open and close and yet I still believe he gave it to Peter.
in the same way Jesus is the everlasting Rock and that clearly in matt 16 he gave that office to Peter to exercise... there is nothing wrong with that, that isn't the first or only time Jesus gave someone an office that explicitly belongs to him.... there is no contradiction unless you are ignorant of scriptures and how Jesus delegates offices.

the text is pretty clear, you are cephas and on this cephas I'll build my Church, Paul goes on to teach in Ephesians how the apostles are the foundation of the Church and Jesus is the corner stone.


but even if you totally disagree that still doesn't affect my point.... the main issue for me isn't whether or not you agree about the Rock the main issue is the keys....


what do you know about the biblical imagery of giving keys.

Themandator:
The church of Christ did not get to Rome,as the Roman Catholic Church but simply as witnesses of Christ who the Roman authority took little interest in until they started turning many away from pagan worship through proofs. Then the authorities went on clampdown and persecuted the church which had no central authority but just an assembly of believers for years, confiscating the scriptures and making it illegal to own it.... The scripture was already in circulation around Asia..... Daniel had the book of Jeremiah and was studying already while in prison.....It wasn't in the hands of Catholic Church authority. The old testament was a requirement, more like a catechism amongst the israelites as they were required to mediate upon it, day and night.

It wasn't until Constantine, a war time general became the emperor that a dramatic change occurred in the relationship between the state and the Christian community. He firstly put a stop to the persecution of Christians and then declared citizens right for them. Then they started coming out openly to profess their faith but the emperor had other designs.

He afterwards summoned the different groups to a meeting....the beginning of organised Christianity. Historians tell you that from records, there was no Bishop of Bishops until Constantine introduced it. Constantine demanded as head of government and the pagan culture to have a title equal to his title in his pagan religion....the birth of vicar.... Meaning indirect Christ


When the outcome of this meeting got out to the larger companies of believers, some rejected it the idea that a man who was yet to renounce his pagan worship would assume such title........the return of persecution.... Those who accepted became an arm of the state and were empowered by the state to go after the other believers...... Persecution and inquisition....

The Roman empire, the United States of America of that era did sponsor the spread of catholicism to other parts of the world....that was how the domination came by....state sponsored.... It was not scriptural that led to protest but the content of the scripture which Martin came in contact as a Catholic...... Martin was in Germany protected against at the Catholic wish by the German Princes and elite...... Martin didn't champion pentecostalism for pentecostals are not protesting anything like Martin. What he championed was protestanism.... A church in his honour today is Lutheran church.


Pentecostals are saints who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2..... They received it on the day of pentecost, hence the name pentecostals. What you are meaning to say is the revival. When they became emboldened after the fall of the Roman empire to once again come out publicly to profess their faith.
Currently, in China, there are lots of underground pentecostals movement who refused state regulation of their belive and what and what not to teach in church. Articles have it, that they are more in numbers than the once regulated by government.

you have just made lot of unsubstantiated statements,

can u show us any ancient historic writer that tells us Church in Rome had no leaders.


can you tell us when the "real church disappeared and the Catholic Church took over?

Themandator:



It is the resort of many of your kinds to leave the substance to chase shadows.... Even a Muslim can do better..... Your church says Peter is the rock in which the church is founded. I ask and expect that anyone coming across my statement would educate me why it is so, from the scripture but no. It is nonsense because you have no sense to counter it.... Let me wait for father Ubenidictus, he has more knowledge than many of you who call as themselves Catholic without even an iota of scripture to defend their beliefs.


Why should anyone sing Christ is my solid rock the root of my soul recreation and still make the mistake of referring to Peter as a rock. Sing rocks of ages cleft for me let me hire myself in thee and comments sacrilege by referring to Peter as the rock. Is he sharing title with Jesus Christ?



This is the conversation in this thread even between Rev. Father Ubenidictus and myself if you care to make contribution. Sensible and scriptural contribution:





My mention:
Pentecostals were the first sets of Christians after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. .... Afterwards , the catholic religion came on board and then Martin chanced in the scripture and discovered a gap between the church doctrine and the scripture and turned a Protestant against those doctrines and traditions.

Catholics were first formerly Pentecostals until the persecution of the church by the Romans led to a compromise by some of the Christian leaders which became Catholic church.

Protestant s are former Catholics whereas , Pentecostals are original Christians


Another contributor asked me this question:



And I replied thus:

The great commission started after the death of Christ, with the release of the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost....Acts 1:8 ..., That was when Christianity was born as Pentecostals. ...People who have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The statement of Jesus wasn't address to Peter as a prophecy hinge on him for the name Peter itself is not rock but stone. And there was no prophecy anywhere for telling of any Peter, being the bedrock of the church. ..... Everything about Jesus was preceded by prophecies from the prophets of old until John the Baptist.... Never was there a prophecy concerning Peter.


When Jesus made his statement about the rock , he was referring to himself as he is the only rock rejected that became the main rock


Then Ubenidictus mentioned with this question:



My response

If you know the meaning of the beginning word, AND in verse nineteen you would have unraveled the rock, the building and the key(mysteries of the kingdom)


The next mention below wasn't from him but a busy body




I replied him, Peter and he returned with this reply below:




And off course I wasn't going to let the fallacy go unchallenged:


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it


If Jesus was referring to Peter ,he wouldn't say ...upon this rock but upon you since he,Peter ,was right there with him... He was talking about a distant rock Hut a very present one.


And then the next verse would not have read ....thus: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


The ground can't have the key to what is built on it for it useless to it because it is immovable, unshakable and has access as a foundation to every secret in the house. The ground owns the house. See through it like a naked cadaver and correct whatever it wants corrects and withdraws support whenever, leading to the collapse of the house


access to the kingdom was granted Peter but the founder and base remains in Christ . ...the church is the kingdom of God on the Earth and the sure rock is Jesus not Peter .mysteries or revelation for accessing the kingdom ...the secret was given to Peter and the apostles with him


Here are cross references to this rock matter ....

1, Psa 118:22 ....2 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner


2, Isa 28:16 .... Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste

3, Isa 33:20......Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken


4, Joh 1:42 ...

5, 1Co 3:11 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone........this is your rock assertion ..... Matthews was written in Hebrews, a sister language to Aramaic .... Peter is stone not rock.

6, [Eph 2:20] ........ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;



Help me with a supportive biblical proof of peterr being the rock ... In the mouth of two is a thing confirmed


NB: of you are not convinced about who the rock is and on who the church if Christ is founded then I doubt if any discussion of the keys would make any sense to you.




If I am replying the same person, I ask you what baptism of the Catholic Church should be opened to pentecostals and what and who is a pentecostal?

Therfore this Communion reply is neither answer or an attempt to reply or explain Catholic baptism that should be made open to pentecostals.






Saint canonization is a tradition of your church not scriptural injunction. By the way, Saint is not a title for dead men and women. Christians are called and referred to as saints of God.
Declaring a dead person a saint adds no value to his standing before God... It won't lead to his or her promotion to PA to God.

It is nothing but earthly busy body activities without no value to the living or the dead, whatsoever. Even praying to him is a waste of precious time.




Now make sensible contribution. Don't hope to reply or bulletin.i was once involved .. I have gone past that level of cut and join knowledge by the help of the Holy Spirit.

please avoid given me titles I do not use

Ubenedictus:
please avoid given me titles I do not use

Don't fret. Very soon he'll call you the Pope.

Themandator:
The church of Christ did not get to Rome,as the Roman Catholic Church but simply as witnesses of Christ who the Roman authority took little interest in until they started turning many away from pagan worship through proofs. Then the authorities went on clampdown and persecuted the church which had no central authority but just an assembly of believers for years, confiscating the scriptures and making it illegal to own it.... The scripture was already in circulation around Asia..... Daniel had the book of Jeremiah and was studying already while in prison.....It wasn't in the hands of Catholic Church authority. The old testament was a requirement, more like a catechism amongst the israelites as they were required to mediate upon it, day and night.

It wasn't until Constantine, a war time general became the emperor that a dramatic change occurred in the relationship between the state and the Christian community. He firstly put a stop to the persecution of Christians and then declared citizens right for them. Then they started coming out openly to profess their faith but the emperor had other designs.

He afterwards summoned the different groups to a meeting....the beginning of organised Christianity. Historians tell you that from records, there was no Bishop of Bishops until Constantine introduced it. Constantine demanded as head of government and the pagan culture to have a title equal to his title in his pagan religion....the birth of vicar.... Meaning indirect Christ


When the outcome of this meeting got out to the larger companies of believers, some rejected it the idea that a man who was yet to renounce his pagan worship would assume such title........the return of persecution.... Those who accepted became an arm of the state and were empowered by the state to go after the other believers...... Persecution and inquisition....

The Roman empire, the United States of America of that era did sponsor the spread of catholicism to other parts of the world....that was how the domination came by....state sponsored.... It was not scriptural that led to protest but the content of the scripture which Martin came in contact as a Catholic...... Martin was in Germany protected against at the Catholic wish by the German Princes and elite...... Martin didn't champion pentecostalism for pentecostals are not protesting anything like Martin. What he championed was protestanism.... A church in his honour today is Lutheran church.


Pentecostals are saints who have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as recorded in Acts 2..... They received it on the day of pentecost, hence the name pentecostals. What you are meaning to say is the revival. When they became emboldened after the fall of the Roman empire to once again come out publicly to profess their faith.
Currently, in China, there are lots of underground pentecostals movement who refused state regulation of their belive and what and what not to teach in church. Articles have it, that they are more in numbers than the once regulated by government.

The best you can come up with is a checkered history. I wasn't expecting much from a late comer. Church historian!

AkunnaTochi:
Don't fret. Very soon he'll call you the Pope.

lol, Pope ubenedictus

Valentines day, Christmas, Easter, and all the other religious day's the Catholic Church had brought to mind, isn't actually carried out the way it is expected in the Catholic Church.
There's no point in Valentines day without a relationship-Christmas day is about Santa, Easter is about a bunny, these are worldly day's 'same holiday's with different meanings.
Pentecostal's don't celebrate these day's, the way the Catholic Church had laid them out to be celebrated, Pentecostal's celebrate these day's just the way the world had always celebrated them.
{Matthew 7:11} If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
The Pentecostal's know these day's is another day for giving!!