http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37178222/ns/business/

This should bring about interesting response right? Basically, Hamas are reported to have destroyed homes belonging to Palestines. If this was an Israeli authorities action, I am sure there will be plenty of outcry and condemnation.

In the balance of things, this is something that should be posted. I wonder what the responses will be.

Oh just in case anyone tries to say it is all Western/israeli/Zionist propaganda. Other non-western or at least media perceived as such are reporting the same thing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37178222/ns/business/

ElRazur:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37178222/ns/business/

This should bring about interesting response right? Basically, Hamas are reported to have destroyed homes belonging to Palestines. If this was an Israeli authorities action, I am sure there will be plenty of outcry and condemnation.
In the balance of things, this is something that should be posted. I wonder what the responses will be.

Oh just in case anyone tries to say it is all Western/israeli/Zionist propaganda. Other non-western or at least media perceived as such are reporting the same thing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37178222/ns/business/

And you think your making sense, your case is pathetic.

The Nigerian Govt. has the right to destroy homes built on Nigerian soil if it think it does not meet the plan of the area just like we have seen done in some areas in Abuja and Lagos, but for the Cameroonian govt., to come destroy Nigerian homes in Calabar, just because we share borders is another case entirely.

You have finally brought your ignorance to fore, accusing Ahmadinajad of issues you cant comprehend.

Don't expect me to come back on this, I ignored it the first time, but I could not let your ignorance pass unnoticed.

Actually ElRazur if brains were taxed you would get a rebate.

It is funny. Just as I expected.

For years, Palestinians have criticized Israel for destroying houses, mostly because they were built without permits issued by the military. Now, Rafah residents complained, their own government, run by the Islamic militant Hamas that seized power in Gaza in July 2007, has done the same.

"They promised reform and change — instead they've destroyed our homes," shouted Miasar Gan, a 54-year-old woman. Gan said she and her husband had nowhere else to go.

"I found my mattress, and that's where I'll be sitting," she said, standing next to the concrete chunks — all that was left of her house.

Her neighbor, Nazira Abu Jara, 56, said policewomen wearing face veils typical of conservative Muslim women beat her with clubs until she fled her house with her husband and two children. "Neighbors help us get by with charity. We can't afford to build again," Abu Jara said.

Others picked through rubble to retrieve dusty clothing and mangled furniture.

Residents said between 30 and 40 homes were torn down, ranging from concrete structures to tin shacks. They did not know how many people were affected. Hamas officials did not allow reporters into the area until the demolition was over.

Residents said more demolitions in the area were expected Monday.

Hamas is clearly doing a fine job.

The Nigerian Govt. has the right to destroy homes built on Nigerian soil if it think it does not meet the plan of the area just like we have seen done in some areas in Abuja and Lagos, but for the Cameroonian govt., to come destroy Nigerian homes in Calabar, just because we share borders is another case entirely.

Gbosa!!!

this is why people should come with superior message.

Ikomi:

And you think your making sense, your case is pathetic.

The Nigerian Govt. has the right to destroy homes built on Nigerian soil if it think it does not meet the plan of the area just like we have seen done in some areas in Abuja and Lagos, but for the Cameroonian govt., to come destroy Nigerian homes in Calabar, just because we share borders is another case entirely.

You have finally brought your ignorance to fore, accusing Ahmadinajad of issues you cant comprehend.

Don't expect me to come back on this, I ignored it the first time, but I could not let your ignorance pass unnoticed.

Actually ElRazur if brains were taxed you would get a rebate.

Well done for the perfect response.

And bang! The trilogy is complete.

I think this was made to guage responses like I said before, and clearly it appears we have the same old wines posting what they really taste like.

From my observation, there is no single proof that the land are even illegal - despite what is being reported etc. - but that is not what I'm about. My point is to point at what both sides do to innocent people. I do not support Israeli action, or what Hamas are doing to the same people who put them in power.

I mean, take Ikomi's response for example, you make a partly valid point, but then the same point is valid from the view point of Israel. And this is what I have been about lately. I.e. refusing to take sides and just try and view it from a neutral point of view, but it appears my attempt at pointing this out just went over the head of those who have responded so far.

Still on the issue of Hamas, bulldozing buildings etc. I mean, one can present a point that Palestine is reported to be the biggest refugee camp in the world, so how is demolishing the homes of fellow palestine by hamas meant to help? Let us approach thing from a moral point of view for a second. It is reported that there are several blockage and embargo placed on these areas by Israel, and as such building materials are regulated in a tight manner. Surely, the little shelter these people can put together out of their own sweat and blood should be left alone? No?  Morally, Hamas acted wrong here.


I mean, Israel do the same thing, but I wonder how many of those who appears to do nothing but take sides see that Hamas is basically doing the same thing? 

ElRazur:


Still on the issue of Hamas, bulldozing buildings etc. I mean, one can present a point that Palestine is reported to be the biggest refugee camp in the world, so how is demolishing the homes of fellow palestine by hamas meant to help? Let us approach thing from a moral point of view for a second. It is reported that there are several blockage and embargo placed on these areas by Israel, and as such building materials are regulated in a tight manner. Surely, the little shelter these people can put together out of their own sweat and blood should be left alone? No?  Morally, Hamas acted wrong here.


I mean, Israel do the same thing, but I wonder how many of those who appears to do nothing but take sides see that Hamas is basically doing the same thing? 

The reason why you continue to wonder is because you have failed to realize the following

1. Isreali actions are meant to humiliate, maim, punish and kill Palestinians.

2. Hamas on the other hand work towards liberating Palestine from the likes of Israel who are bent on taking their lands and punishing them for what the Germans (Europe) did.

Afam:

The reason why you continue to wonder is because you have failed to realize the following

1. Isreali actions are meant to humiliate, maim, punish and kill Palestinians.

2. Hamas on the other hand work towards liberating Palestine from the likes of Israel who are bent on taking their lands and punishing them for what the Germans (Europe) did.

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

What has morality got to do with the argument, its a move to save face, that guy is talking high level baloney.

@Afam

Once again, you are missing the point.

Hamas on this occasion have done exactly what Israel do to Palestine. That and that only is the point I was aiming at making.

Like I mentioned to you in the other thread, both sides are guilty. And I am of the belief that heaping blame on one side will not achieve anything in real life. Just the same way how blaming each sides on this forum, or taking sides on this forum lead to endless bickering over who is wrong and who is right, while the people concerned continues to suffer.

Your post have done nothing but continue the blame game.

Ikomi:

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

What has morality got to do with the argument, its a move to save face, that guy is talking high level baloney.

This is not about saving face. I made a thread to get the right response, in order to make a point.

My original post hinted at "waiting for responses" etc. I also left till you and others to post in order to make that very point. Also, my original post talked about "Balance".


Swap your original respose around and in the eyes of Israel, they are doing what they see as legal and to protect themselves; Claim back land they perceived as theirs etc While making plenty of innocent people suffer as a direct and indirect result.


I know you probably see me as Pro Israel/Zion/West etc, but you may need to re-evaluate that.

ElRazur:

@Afam

Once again, you are missing the point.

Hamas on this occasion have done exactly what Israel do to Palestine. That and that only is the point I was aiming at making.

Like I mentioned to you in the other thread, both sides are guilty. And I am of the belief that heaping blame on one side will not achieve anything in real life. Just the same way how blaming each sides on this forum, or taking sides on this forum lead to endless bickering over who is wrong and who is right, while the people concerned continues to suffer.

Your post have done nothing but continue the blame game.

I will never agree to be wrong just to justify a wrong position you may have taken.

When I am wrong I will admit it, certainly not before.

When 2 people fight it is almost impossible for the 2 people to be guilty for the fight so stop trying to defend what cannot be defended - all parties are equally guilty - it will not work.

Honestly I cant believe you think you are making sence in this blind argument of yours.

ElRazur:

I know you probably see me as Pro Israel/Zion/West etc, but you may need to re-evaluate that.

You are Pro nothing. I have Jewish friends who would immediately tell you to shut up with this kind of cheap defence.

Go and be Pro your hometown, am sure they would give you high position as one of the greatest idiots they produced.

Afam:

I will never agree to be wrong just to justify a wrong position you may have taken.

When I am wrong I will admit it, certainly not before.

When 2 people fight it is almost impossible for the 2 people to be guilty for the fight so stop trying to defend what cannot be defended - all parties are equally guilty - it will not work.

I understand that, and do see your reasons for doing so.

The same stance have been shared since the time of David and Goliath, and it still carries on today. Stance like this in my opinion is yet to achieve peace. May be it is time for a different approach?

Ikomi:

Honestly I cant believe you think you are making sence in this blind argument of yours.

You are Pro nothing. I have Jewish friends who would immediately tell you to shut up with this kind of cheap defence.

Go and be Pro your hometown, am sure they would give you high position as one of the greatest idiots they produced.

Okay sir. 

You are the proverbial White man who screams "Nigger" at every opportunity, claims Slave trade era is justifiable, and then claim to have black men as friends. Nice.

The reason why you continue to wonder is because you have failed to realize the following

1. Isreali actions are meant to humiliate, maim, punish and kill Palestinians.

2. Hamas on the other hand work towards liberating Palestine from the likes of Israel who are bent on taking their lands and punishing them for what the Germans (Europe) did

Gbosa! Gbosa!! Gbosa!!!

You are still not learning. Come up with superior arguement.

Otawa, one key point you are missing. I am not exactly arguing, but merely presenting an alternative view point. I am not trying to prove anything or argue for or against anything. However, I am asking us to look at things from a different view.

Something that keeps going above your head.

Meh. Some things will never change, not matter how much we try to introduce a different approach I guess.

ElRazur:

Otawa, one key point you are missing. I am not exactly arguing, but merely presenting an alternative view point. I am not trying to prove anything or argue for or against anything. However, I am asking us to look at things from a different view.

Put differently, you stand for nothing, correct? You are not trying to prove anything or argue for or against anything? So, why are you still disagreeing with obvious positions based on facts, logic and common sense?

Afam:

Put differently, you stand for nothing, correct? You are not trying to prove anything or argue for or against anything? So, why are you still disagreeing with obvious positions based on facts, logic and common sense?

How is that remotely close to what I posted?

By not standing for or against, I am refusing to engage in standing on one side like the rest of you guys. Meh, one do not have to argue in order to make a point. Like I have pointed out from the beginning.

Clearly from what you trio have posted, you wanted an argument. Which is not what I am trying to do, but present an alternative view point. I mean, we have sided with one section or the other since the time record begin, and what have been the outcome?

As for facts and common sense, I really think you should remember that One man's fact in this situation is another man's view point of nothing but lies, propaganda etc.



I really wonder if you folks can even come out of your "side taking mentality" for once and just see what I am trying to present here. But going back the post from the three of you. It is like trying to describe the colours of the rainbow to someone blind from birth - It will be almost an impossible and highly improbably task.

ElRazur:

How is that remotely close to what I posted?

By not standing for or against, I am refusing to engage in standing on one side like the rest of you guys. Meh, one do not have to argue in order to make a point. Like I have pointed out from the beginning.

Clearly from what you trio have posted, you wanted an argument. Which is not what I am trying to do, but present an alternative view point. I mean, we have sided with one section or the other since the time record begin, and what have been the outcome?

As for facts and common sense, I really think you should remember that One man's fact in this situation is another man's view point of nothing but lies, propaganda etc.



I really wonder if you folks can even come out of your "side taking mentality" for once and just see what I am trying to present here. But going back the post from the three of you. It is like trying to describe the colours of the rainbow to someone blind from birth - It will be almost an impossible and highly improbably task.

Stop doing this to yourself, you are not making any meaningful point.

Ikomi:

Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

What has morality got to do with the argument, its a move to save face, that guy is talking high level baloney.

Well, my apologies for not taking your advice. I shall apply the advice now because it seems there is no end in sight on this issue.

Sigh.

So who ever have a different view from you ain't making sense?

Thank God, all post are held on record for all to see.



Next time, I will engage in taking sides, that way it will be deemed more "meaningful".  Oh wait, only that those "meaningful" approach of taking sides have not produced the desired result in how many centuries again? Perhaps my posts are "meaningful" after all.

This issue is even more complicated than it seem. If you remove religion and speak objectively it is still as complicated. Israel will not just go away, a knowledgeable person should know this.  IT cannot be "all or nothing" on both side compromise is the keyword. The conservative govt. of Israel is not helping issue, i doubt Obama would do much. .

@topic,

You know, all the back and forth on this topic will not be necessary if only people can read the infered article and take their points from what is reported rather than preconceived notions and bias.

Here is what is reported: For years, Palestinians have criticized Israel for destroying houses, mostly because they were built without permits issued by the military. Now, Rafah residents complained, their own government, run by the Islamic militant Hamas that seized power in Gaza in July 2007, has done the same.  If my understanding of english is correct, the phrase "has done the same" means just exactly that! There is no "except", "besides" or other adjectives to suggest any disimilarity.

The question now remains, why do non-residents, arm-chair spectators and feigned sympathisers think that the affected residents don't know what they are talking about?  What esoteric knowledge do these people posses to arrive at such a conclusion?  I do not find any such information in the article, neither in the postings so far.  Can someone please enlightene me?

^^^^^^

How can a boy who cannot take a simple decision whether to stay in the forum or not, claim to understand foreign politics which is mainly based on good analysis and decision making.

He now claims he has a good grasp of the above issue on the self believe which is more like self delusion on his mastery of English, and when push comes to shove he would result to another self delusion, his mastery of logic.

Why he has not been discovered as a boy with mastery of English and Logic at the same time is beyond me.

Nairaland has done well in pointing it out to me that there is a high level of folly in our society.

Sigh.

So who ever have a different view from you ain't making sense?

Thank God, all post are held on record for all to see.

Your point of view when considered with other people point of view is very very weak.

there is no superior thinking in your 'different view'.

@Ikomi,

How can a boy who cannot take a simple decision whether to stay in the forum or not, claim to understand foreign politics which is mainly based on good analysis and decision making.

This is where people trip themselves up. So you are a man because you have called me a boy?  Talk about infantile thinking at its best.  If my "boyish" reasoning is correct, it takes men to discuss issues on points while it takes "boys" to do nothing but attack personality. Who is the boy here?  As for my staying on nairaland or not, do you have any proof as to what my thought process was at the time? Besides, is a change of mind a sign of weakness or strength?

No wonder you keep binding yourself up in a knot.  You have made up your mind that no matter what, Isreal is guilty.  This explains your position to project beyond what has been reported is happening in Gaza.

He now claims he has a good grasp of the above issue on the self believe which is more like self delusion on his mastery of English, and when push comes to shove he would result to another self delusion, his mastery of logic.

Where did I make such a claim?  I'm telling you, you are delusional.

Why he has not been discovered as a boy with mastery of English and Logic at the same time is beyond me.

I never made such a claim.  Perhaps you are the one that needs to be confered with the mastery of unspoken intentions.  Your hyper-knowledge that goes beyond what has been said or written puts you in a class of your own - an Ayatollah!! 

Nairaland has done well in pointing it out to me that there is a high level of folly in our society.

Of course. The biggest fool being the one that repulses you when he stares back at you in the mirror everyday.

@otawa,

Your point of view when considered with other people point of view is very very weak.

there is no superior thinking in your 'different view'.

I believe what El Razur is trying to say is very simple.  Maybe it was just lost in the heat of debate.

Gaza has been under the rule of Isreal, Fatah and now Hamas.  Under Fatah rule, there was no report of destruction of homes by the ruling authority hence no accusation at Fatah.  However, there has been the destruction of such homes under both Isreali and Hamas rule.  These desturction in both cases came about because of invalid permits or lack thereof.  This is the simple accusation levied by the affected residents as indicated in the above report: For years, Palestinians have criticized Israel for destroying houses, mostly because they were built without permits issued by the military. Now, Rafah residents complained, their own government, run by the Islamic militant Hamas that seized power in Gaza in July 2007, has done the same.

So you see, as far as the affected residents are concerned, Hamas and Isreal are guilty of the same crime - pulling down homes for lack of permit.  This fact is simple enough that it takes Ayatollah Ikomi and co to help people misunderstand it.

^^^^^^^

Tayo-D:

As for my staying on nairaland or not, do you have any proof as to what my thought process was at the time? Besides, is a change of mind a sign of weakness or strength?

Your a shameless, double tongued, narrow minded, bloody idiot.

When Ibime gave it to you, you cried like a baby, hoping for sympathy, your comment was in the line that if Ibime is not reproached you shall leave the thread entirely, no one cared if you left or not, and still you brought you ignorant self back.

Instead of accepting your failures you claim its strength, now we know your Hercules. Please stop chasing me around threads looking for someone to raise your level of awareness by typing "@ikomi" all the time, I don't really enjoy it from you.

@Ikomi the Ayatollah,

Your a shameless, double tongued, narrow minded, bloody idiot.

I can see you've added some new words to your dictionary.  I am happy for you.

When Ibime gave it to you, you cried like a baby, hoping for sympathy, your comment was in the line that if Ibime is not reproached you shall leave the thread entirely, no one cared if you left or not, and still you brought you ignorant self back.

I would have asked you if you knew what transpired after I made my threat to leave nairaland but since you are an Ayatollah, I will assume you do.  So tell me, was the condition I stipulated fulfilled or not?  Again, you show your inability to restrain from acting based on incomplete information.  Was Ibime reproached or not? My leaving or not was based on that condition and I suppose you know how that turned out. Do you?

By the way, I never left so how can I bring myself back?  Another proof you just dont have a clue.

Instead of accepting your failures you claim its strength, now we know your Hercules. Please stop chasing me around threads looking for someone to raise your level of awareness by typing "@ikomi" all the time, I don't really enjoy it from you.

Failures? Failure to insist that parents should be left off the discussion on nairaland?  You mean you will support a situation where people abuse each other's parents here? If respecting yours and every other person's parent is a failure, then I will rather have you and not I achieve such "success".

Don't you think it is hypocritical of you to accuse another of not acknowledging errors when you are yet to acknowledge that you were wrong in refering to a Shiite as a member of a tribe and not a secct of Islam? Neither have you acknowledged your error in saying Persians native language is arabic even though you refer to yourself as an expert in ME affairs. Please stop making a fool of yourself.

As for me chasing you around, its easy for everyone here to see that I addressed the topic when I came to this board. You were the one that responded by addressing me with ^^^^! I have no problem responding in kind as long as you do not invite insults on your parents as Ibime did by addressing mine. 

Ayatollah Ikomi.  Loong may you reign as the nairaland idiot.

@Ayatollah Ikomi,

Instead of accepting your failures you claim its strength, now we know your Hercules.

Stop using terms you don't understand.  What you should have written is "Achilles heel" and not Hercules.  With all due respect, you are the dumbest Ayatollah I have ever known.  Hercules indeed        !!!!!

Tayo-D:

@Ayatollah Ikomi,
Stop using terms you don't understand.  What you should have written is "Achilles heel" and not Hercules.  With all due respect, you are the dumbest Ayatollah I have ever known.  Hercules indeed        !!!!!

You have carefully pointed out your ignorance again. Thank you finally, at least that would be glaring for all to see.

If you dont know this little things how can you claim to undestand issues that are bigger than you.

Hercules is the Roman name for the Greek demigod Heracles, son of Jupiter (the Roman equivalent of Zeus), and the mortal Alcmena, famous for his strength

For student Tayo-D to verify. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules

So now you dont need to wonder why I really dislike getting into any conversation with you. Your ignorance is so high, only you can't see it.

Tayo-D:

@otawa,
I believe what El Razur is trying to say is very simple.  Maybe it was just lost in the heat of debate.

Gaza has been under the rule of Isreal, Fatah and now Hamas.  Under Fatah rule, there was no report of destruction of homes by the ruling authority hence no accusation at Fatah.  However, there has been the destruction of such homes under both Isreali and Hamas rule.  These desturction in both cases came about because of invalid permits or lack thereof.  This is the simple accusation levied by the affected residents as indicated in the above report: For years, Palestinians have criticized Israel for destroying houses, mostly because they were built without permits issued by the military. Now, Rafah residents complained, their own government, run by the Islamic militant Hamas that seized power in Gaza in July 2007, has done the same.

So you see, as far as the affected residents are concerned, Hamas and Isreal are guilty of the same crime - pulling down homes for lack of permit.  This fact is simple enough that it takes Ayatollah Ikomi and co to help people misunderstand it.

Every single state has a right to demolish homes that do not have permits.

Israel seized Palestinian lands and continues to kill and maim them so they do not have any rights whatsoever to destroy their homes because every single permit issued by Israel is invalid.

Hamas, as an elected government in a free and fair election has every right to demolish homes that do not have the correct permits because it has the right to do so as the government of the people.

There is a clear difference between the two cases unless of course blind support for Israel is making it impossible to see the obvious difference.

Another example that will clarify this is

Lagos state has a right to demolish buildings within Lagos that do not have correct permits.

Benin Republic does not have such rights.

Or will any man be justified to sleep with your wife simply because you sleep with her? The issue here is the right to do anything not the act itself.

Afam:

The issue here is the right to do anything not the act itself.

That is just one simple fact those two up there fail to understand, and they wonder why I call them idiots, even when it has been explained over and over again.

The latter idiot is now telling me Hercules has recently changed his name to Achilles heel.

Ibime would soon meet with you Tayo-D and you would cry again.

@Afam,

Every single state has a right to demolish homes that do not have permits.

This is absolutely true. And you will note that I did not condemn Hamas because of this fact.

Israel seized Palestinian lands and continues to kill and maim them so they do not have any rights whatsoever to destroy their homes because every single permit issued by Israel is invalid.

This is where your bias comes to fore. You neglected the fact that even Hamas mims and kills like we see them throwing people of buildings. Something that even Isreal never did. Are they justified for carrying out such an act? The issue here is the demolished buildings, an not the history of violenc. How many homes in Gaza has Isreal seized and destroyed since Fatah and now Hamas came to be in control?

Hamas, as an elected government in a free and fair election has every right to demolish homes that do not have the correct permits because it has the right to do so as the government of the people.

I understand this and have no problem with it. Laws have to be folowed.

There is a clear difference between the two cases unless of course blind support for Israel is making it impossible to see the obvious difference.

These cases arenot different because Isreal demolishd those houses when they were the governing authority. They do not do so now. It will be wrong for them to do that at the time Fatah or Hamas came to power. If you can prove such was te case, then I will concur with you. The only other demolishing that I know that Isreal carries out is the homes of suicide terrorists who kill the Jews.

Another example that will clarify this is

Lagos state has a right to demolish buildings within Lagos that do not have correct permits.

Benin Republic does not have such rights.

Or will any man be justified to sleep with your wife simply because you sleep with her? The issue here is the right to do anything not the act itself.

This is still the same as what you wrote above. Anybody could have slept with your wife legitimately before you two got married. It is only wrong when they do so after you gys are married. Get it? Isreal was the rulr of Gaza up until Fatah and now Hamas. They carried out the legitimate destruction of houses with no permits. That was a function of th govt, which Isreal was.