dorox:


Free will it is for me.

why do you think so?

I heard an explanation for this that made sense.
the person said the only part that is God's will is the part that is related to salvation/spirituality. God only destined salvation plans. every other aspect is freewill.
like you made a plan, and every other thing outside the plan is not under your control.

let's say you open a school. you will lay down plans on how the school would be run, the curriculum, the overall school master plan and the rest. you don't destine if students drop out or pull through. you only have your master plan, you don't destine who follows the plan and who doesn't.

Gggg102:
I heard an explanation for this that made sense.
the person said the only part that is God's will is the part that is related to salvation/spirituality. God only destined salvation plans. every other aspect is freewill.
like you made a plan, and every other thing outside the plan is not under your control.

let's say you open a school. you will lay down plans on how the school would be run, the curriculum, the overall school master plan and the rest. you don't destine if students drop out or pull through. you only have your master plan, you don't destine who follows the plan and who doesn't.

how does this align with omnipotence?

also the schoolmaster didn't create the students and their existence is independent of the schoolmaster.

Dalaman and hardmirror

Let's stop taking things personal as johnnydon rightly said. Remember a lot of persons on this forum have had a change of perspectives due to matured contributions by theists and atheists.

We should desist from reducing every topic to insults and mockery. Try to ignore those 'insincere' persons and move on.

I used to contribute to discussions until i noticed this ugly trend, it's quite unfortunate.

ScepticalPyrrho:
Dalaman and hardmirror

Let's stop taking things personal as johnnydon rightly said. Remember a lot of persons on this forum have had a change of perspectives due to matured contributions by theists and atheists.

We should desist from reducing every topic to insults and mockery. Try to ignore those 'insincere' persons and move on.

I used to contribute to discussions until i noticed this ugly trend, it's quite unfortunate.

ok.

hopefulLandlord:
how does this align with omnipotence?

also the schoolmaster didn't create the students and their existence is independent of the schoolmaster.

He could be omnipotent and choose not to act.


The schoolmaster admitted the students into the school and their stay in the school is dependent on the school master.

Gggg102:
I heard an explanation for this that made sense.
the person said the only part that is God's will is the part that is related to salvation/spirituality. God only destined salvation plans. every other aspect is freewill.
like you made a plan, and every other thing outside the plan is not under your control.

let's say you open a school. you will lay down plans on how the school would be run, the curriculum, the overall school master plan and the rest. you don't destine if students drop out or pull through. you only have your master plan, you don't destine who follows the plan and who doesn't.

I think there is an overlap of the word plan.

When we use the terms God's will or freewill, we are referencing the subject of human life.

That is, does human life go according to God's will/plan/predestination or man is free to make a choice?

From the bolded, that explanation is hinting on freewill.

Gggg102:

He could be omnipotent and choose not to act.

Correct and this implies freewill

johnydon22:


I think there is an overlapping of the word plan.

When we use the terms God's will or freewill, we are referencing the subject of human life.

That is, does human life go according to God's will/plan/predestination or man is free to make a choice?

From the bolded, that explanation is hinting on freewill.

That's the explanation I got.

God made a plan, but does not choose who follows the plan.
Anyone who chooses to follow the plan arrives at the end God destined with the plan.

Gggg102:



He could be omnipotent and choose not to act.


The schoolmaster admitted the students into the school and their stay in the school is dependent on the school master.

apologies, I used the wrong potence. I meant "Omniscience"

Actually No! the schoolmaster didn't create the students either way and creation does make a world of difference, don't you think?

Gggg102:


That's the explanation I got.

God made a plan, but does not choose who follows the plan.
Anyone who chooses to follow the plan arrives at the end God destined with the plan.

In otherwords; God gave man freewill.

hopefulLandlord:


apologies, I used the wrong potence. I meant "Omniscience"

Actually No! the schoolmaster didn't create the students either way and creation does make a world of difference, don't you think?

I used to have a definition of omniscience that could allow freewill but it took a little from god.
Omniscience could mean that god knows the outcome of every decision a person makes, but doesn't know the decision you will make.
Then omniscience could also be like we in a fictional universe like a comic book. We could be writing each page ourselves however, God could flip to the end and find out how everything ends.


We could think of the school as a different level of existence. Those he admitted are created in this schoolniverse.

johnydon22:


In otherwords; God gave man freewill.

Yes

ScepticalPyrrho:
Dalaman and hardmirror
U
Let's stop taking things personal as johnnydon rightly said. Remember a lot of persons on this forum have had a change of perspectives due to matured contributions by theists and atheists.

We should desist from reducing every topic to insults and mockery. Try to ignore those 'insincere' persons and move on.

I used to contribute to discussions until i noticed this ugly trend, it's quite unfortunate.

Roger!

Gggg102:


I used to have a definition of omniscience that could allow freewill but it took a little from god.
Omniscience could mean that god knows the outcome of every decision a person makes, but doesn't know the decision you will make.
Then omniscience could also be like we in a fictional universe like a comic book. We could be writing each page ourselves however, God could flip to the end and find out how everything ends.

We could think of the school as a different level of existence. Those he admitted are created in this schoolniverse.

Interesting, let me attack the omniscient/freewill paradox from your definition

Think of a ludo die flipped and thrown. to the thrower (provided no cheating is involved) he has no idea how the die would end. however if you add total and unbridled knowledge of the present to the thrower its actually impossible for him not to know.
For instance the factors that affect where the die would fall are 100% what's happening in the present. in fact, that it lands on (let's say) number 4 is because of the strength with which he flicked it, the spin he put on it, the air movement in the room, the weight and imperfections of the die, and a myriad of other factors but the limitations of the flicker's ability to know 100% those factors make it all look random to him. if there's a way he knows all these factors then 4 that it resulted to was not random but "expected"

Now let's move on to an omniscient creator who doesn't really know the future but 100% knows fully the present to even the most minutest and insignificant of details, knowing the present actually translates to knowing the future for such an entity.

to elucidate, Say that I know everything about a person's life. I know their genetics, and their medical history and their diet and I know every movement of every blood cell. I know everything about every person they make contact with. I know everything about every room they entre, every step that they take and every breath they breathe. I know every electrical impulse in their brain, every hormonal release and every chemical acting on them. I know their personality and their lifestyle. I know their habits, I know how they act as a person. I know how they will react to events that even they don't know will happen, because I know every bit of information about every single person that this character ever makes contact with. I know how they will make decisions, because I know their personality. I know the things that will happen to them in the future, because I know every single thing that exists right now.

Like the die flip, if I know all of the forces acting on this person in their life, including the way that they think, then I know exactly what will happen to them and what they will do. It's exactly the same concept as the die flip.
God knows everything.
Every single thing that is, he knows. Therefore, like the die flip, he knows what's coming.

hopefulLandlord:

Interesting, let me attack the omniscient/freewill paradox from your definition

Think of a ludo die flipped and thrown. to the thrower (provided no cheating is involved) he has no idea how the die would end. however if you add total and unbridled knowledge of the present to the thrower its actually impossible for him not to know.
For instance the factors that affect where the die would fall are 100% what's happening in the present. in fact, that it lands on (let's say) number 4 is because of the strength with which he flicked it, the spin he put on it, the air movement in the room, the weight and imperfections of the die, and a myriad of other factors but the limitations of the flicker's ability to know 100% those factors make it all look random to him. if there's a way he knows all these factors then 4 that it resulted to was not random but "expected"

Now let's move on to an omniscient creator who doesn't really know the future but 100% knows fully the present to even the most minutest and insignificant of details, knowing the present actually translates to knowing the future for such an entity.

to elucidate, Say that I know everything about a person's life. I know their genetics, and their medical history and their diet and I know every movement of every blood cell. I know everything about every person they make contact with. I know everything about every room they entre, every step that they take and every breath they breathe. I know every electrical impulse in their brain, every hormonal release and every chemical acting on them. I know their personality and their lifestyle. I know their habits, I know how they act as a person. I know how they will react to events that even they don't know will happen, because I know every bit of information about every single person that this character ever makes contact with. I know how they will make decisions, because I know their personality. I know the things that will happen to them in the future, because I know every single thing that exists right now.
Like the coin flip, if I know all of the forces acting on this person in their life, including the way that they think, then I know exactly what will happen to them and what they will do. It's exactly the same concept as the coin flip.
God knows everything.
Every single thing that is, he knows. Therefore, like the coin flip, he knows what's coming.

That still translates as knowing the present although at an instantaneous level.

also the die follows laws that allows it's trajectory to be possible. Does human consciousness follow laws? When you make choices are you in charge of your choice? or is your present thought a result of a chain reaction that started since the beginning of the universe?
The die is already bound, are we?
I'd like to think you can't know what I'll think till that exact instant I think it.

Gggg102:



That still translates as knowing the present although at an instantaneous level.

also the die follows laws that allows it's trajectory to be possible. Does human consciousness follow laws? When you make choices are you in charge of your choice? or is your present thought a result of a chain reaction that started since the beginning of the universe?
I'd like to think you can't know what I'll think till that exact instant I think it.

The point I was making is that if you know 100% of everything about the present then you definitely KNOW the future. in fact the main reason we fail predictions is due to the fact that there are certain knowledge of the present we are not aware of. which is why insider trading and cabals is so effective in the stock market. the more you know about the present the more accurate your predictions about the future would be, know everything about the present and you'll the future actually becomes knowledge

Now to the human consciousness, this was also created by the entity, right? so while it may appear to the human like he's making a free choice, to the creator of that consciousness it may just be that he's doing exactly what he knew he would do based on the consciousness he gave to the human

hopefulLandlord:

The point I was making is that if you know 100% of everything about the present then you definitely KNOW the future. in fact the main reason we fail predictions is due to the fact that there are certain knowledge of the present we are not aware of. which is why insider trading and cabals is so effective in the stock market. the more you know about the present the more accurate your predictions about the future would be, know everything about the present and you'll the future actually becomes knowledge

Now to the human consciousness, this was also created by the entity, right? so while it may appear to the human like he's making a free choice, to the creator of that consciousness it may just be that he's doing exactly what he knew he would do based on the consciousness he gave to the human

Let's leave god out of the question for a bit.
Do you think if a human by chance has a hundred percent knowledge of everything about you at this present moment he would be able to predict your future?

Gggg102:



Let's leave god out of the question for a bit.
Do you think if a human by chance has a hundred percent knowledge of everything about you at this present moment he would be able to predict your future?

not only 100% about me but 100% about everything including things external to me at present. then such a person would be able to predict the future which includes me. I'm hoping you prove me wrong though as I've never presented this argument before so its still in its infancy

hopefulLandlord:


not only 100% about me but 100% about everything including things external to me at present. then such a person would be able to predict the future which includes me. I'm hoping you prove me wrong though as I've never presented this argument before so its still in its infancy

I've never encountered this argument either.


If someone can predict the future like you said by knowing the present fully. Then this present can be known by knowing the present before it and the present before it can be known by knowing the present before it... To the beginning of the universe. According to this argument, one can know the future of any entity including us by knowing every bit of information about the big bang. This means everything has been predestined since the big bang and whatever before it. According to this argument, you believe in predestination. How would this fit in your atheistic world view?

Gggg102:


I've never encountered this argument either.


If someone can predict the future like you said by knowing the present fully. Then this present can be known by knowing the present before it and the present before it can be known by knowing the present before it... To the beginning of the universe. According to this argument, one can know the future of any entity including us by knowing every bit of information about the big bang. This means everything has been predestined since the big bang and whatever before it. According to this argument, you believe in predestination. How would this fit in your atheistic world view?

Predestination requires an entity to do the predestining just like a program requires someone to do the programming

remove the programmer or the "predestinator" and there's no predestination or programming

hopefulLandlord:


Predestination requires an entity to do the predestining just like a program requires someone to do the programming

remove the programmer or the "predestinator" and there's no predestination or programming

This sounds like you are arguing for intelligent design.
The predestining could be caused by the bigbang.

Your argument implies that end can be known by factoring in everything from the present and by extension the past, since the present can be known by factoring in everything from the past. in other words, if the everything in very beginning was known, everything from that point could be worked out moment after moment till we get to the end of the universe. If this is so, then you imply that everything is fixed and we are all following a script that has been set up since ages back. We are then all elements in a universal chain reaction. Your present thought is a result of the factors the moment before which resulted from the moment before which resulted from the moment before... Beginning of the universe. You are implying everything has been fixed from the very beginning. How does this factor in your atheistic world view?

So atheists have not changed. Still obsessed with an inexistent God and opening thread uppn the thread insulting his followers. Was away from nairaland for about 2 months and thought their insanity must have been cured but alas I was wrong.

Gggg102:


This sounds like you are arguing for intelligent design.
The predestining could be caused by the bigbang.

Your argument implies that end can be known by factoring in everything from the present and by extension the past, since the present can be known by factoring in everything from the past. in other words, if the everything in very beginning was known, everything from that point could be worked out moment after moment till we get to the end of the universe. If this is so, then you imply that everything is fixed and we are all following a script that has been set up since ages back. We are then all elements in a universal chain reaction. Your present thought is a result of the factors the moment before which resulted from the moment before which resulted from the moment before... Beginning of the universe. You are implying everything has been fixed from the very beginning. How does this factor in your atheistic world view?

I'm more interested in the counteraguments against that rather than how it factors into my view. there are actually atheists that think there's no freewill, like Sam Harris and his arguments are also kinda compelling too. however I'm more interested in how a theist thinks there's some entity that knows 100% what has happened up till this present moment, has a plan and interferes but somehow doesn't KNOW the future.

hopefulLandlord:

I'm more interested in the counteraguments against that rather than how it factors into my view. there are actually atheists that think there's no freewill, like Sam Harris and his arguments are also kinda compelling too. however I'm more interested in how a theist thinks there's some entity that knows 100% what has happened up till this present moment, has a plan and interferes but somehow doesn't KNOW the future.

I don't think I can accept that an entity can know the future of anything including conscious beings and their choices, by knowing 100% of the present.

it would nullify the existence of freewill. freewill only exists when one can make choices of their own intent, but according to your argument everything we are doing is a result of a chain reaction that has been occurring since the beginning of the universe. we've been bound by the universe to make the choices we make therefore, no-one would be responsible for his choices.
it justs put everything in a messy perspective.

Gggg102:



I don't think I can accept that an entity can know the future of anything including conscious beings and their choices, by knowing 100% of the present.

but you're yet to show why that would not be the case especially if this entity were responsible for the existence of everything and interferes. like I said this argument is still in its infancy so I need objections to smoothen the rough edges

it would nullify the existence of freewill. freewill only exists when one can make choices of their own intent, but according to your argument everything we are doing is a result of a chain reaction that has been occurring since the beginning of the universe. we've been bound by the universe to make the choices we make therefore, no-one would be responsible for his choices.
it just put everything in a messy perspective.

Do you disagree that the present determines the future?

hopefulLandlord:
but you're yet to show why that would not be the case especially if this entity were responsible for the existence of everything and interferes. like I said this argument is still in its infancy so I need objections to smoothen the rough edges


Do you disagree that the present determines the future?

if I agree that the present determines the future, then I have to agree that everychoice and everyconcept of freewill is an illusion.
it means what I type and what you type write now, are not under your control as it has been determined since the chain reaction started.

I choose to disagree.

Gggg102:


if I agree that the present determines the future, then I have to agree that everychoice and everyconcept of freewill is an illusion.
it means what I type and what you type write now, are not under your control as it has been determined since the chain reaction started.

I choose to disagree.

I think the argument leads to solipsism to an extent so maybe I'll refine it as I see more counterarguments

Thanks

hopefulLandlord:


I think the argument leads to solipsism to an extent so maybe I'll refine it as I see more counterarguments

Thanks

no problem.

Gggg102:


That's the explanation I got.

God made a plan, but does not choose who follows the plan.
Anyone who chooses to follow the plan arrives at the end God destined with the plan.

This is contradicting.

There are people God chose to follow his plans and send them to preach about his plan, infact the Bible God wants everyone to follow his plans or face doom(two options and no other options), if God actually give people freewill against his plan he shouldn't threaten and kill people. Moreover God knew Satan will rebel, he knew about the original sin, he knew homosexuals will exist, he knew everyones end beforehand.