Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. - Culture (42) - Nairaland
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Why Dont Yorubas Claim Istekiri, The Way Igbos Claim Ikwerre, Delta Igbo? / Delta Igbo,bendel Igbo,ikwerre Igbo,do They Really Matter To The Igbo Nation? / Who Is An Igbo/what Makes Someone An Igbo? (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsHD: 11:02am On Jul 24, 2011 |
b) Second, there is indisputable evidence that the Benin version of the Agboghidi story was told long before Jacob Egharevba: "In 1966, I studied the oral tradition of the Edo people of Nigeria in Edo (Benin city) and its rural environs. Among other storytellers whom I talked to, observed and recorded, Iditua of Urhokosa village was a recognized master narrator who told narratives of epical dimension, and whose rendition of two epics, "Agboghidi" and "Odologie", named after their principal figures, I recorded. This was the first time that the story of "Odologie" has ever been brought to the attention of an outsider, and I could surmise that even within Edo society, it is not well known. The hero's name appears in Jacob Egharevba, A Short History of Benin[i] (1934), in a list of princes and princesses who rule the Edo after the death of Ere, the last Ogiso, the first royal dynasty. Otherwise, neither his name nor the stories of his actions recur in tradition. But the story of Agboghidi has had a different literary history. While it has not yet received the recognition it deserves in world literature, it has been textualized twice: the first time as an epic measured in pentameter, so rendered by John Wyndham and published as [i]The Curse of Obo in 1926. Wyndham heard the story from Prince Aiguobasimwin, the eldest son of Oba Ovonramwen, who was deposed and exiled from Benin when the British army destroyed the city in 1897. Prince Aiguobasimwin, later Oba Eweka the second (1914-33), told the story in 1911, before his father's death and his own ascension to the throne, but while he was a warrant chief of Benin. Wyndham puts the story in the mouth of a personified Forest talking to an Englishman. The opening lines are indicative of his literary handiwork: The Forest of Benin speaks to an Englishman: - These many evenings, Stranger, I have watched Your patient quest of dead kings' halls, while I - My mother-grief still sore - have screened from view The ravished remnants of a bygone Power (Wyndham 1926: 9.) The second time the story of Agboghidi appeared in press it was in an adolescent book of folktales prepared by Joseph E. Sidahome, Stories of the Benin Empire (1964), which was published posthumously. Sidahome's brief biographical sketch that appears on the dust jacket recounts a life of an aspiring young man. He was born in Owaha, Ishan, in 1917 and lived with his parents in several Midwestern towns in Nigeria, Ubiaja, Benin City and Ondo." - Dan Ben-Amos, "The narrator as an edtior", from page 282 of the book Textualization of oral epics by Lauri Honko http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vyfOPBtlz54C&oi=fnd&pg=PA282#v=onepage&q&f=false The statement about Ere being the last Ogiso is not correct unless one goes by Egharevba's original edition, obviously. The rest of the statement is relevant because it cannot be claimed that the story told by Oba Eweka II in 1911, when he was a prince, was due to Egharevba. So the claim that Egharevba "made up the Benin story" is rubbish (yet another error from the ogbuefi of propaganda), as the story was an epic long before he published anything. The story cannot have been made up on the spot by Oba Eweka if it inspired an epic from Wyndham but is obviously a piece of tradition from before the fall of Benin. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsMHD(m): 11:06am On Jul 24, 2011 |
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| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsRND(m): 11:10am On Jul 24, 2011 |
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| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsQED(m): 11:19am On Jul 24, 2011 |
b) Second, it is an indisputable fact that Oba Eweka, as Prince Aiguobasimwin, told the Agboghidi story to the English author John Wyndham in 1911. Wyndham published an epic about the story in 1926 and I even provided an small extract of it, but the spambot hid the post. You can refer to Dan Ben-Amos' article ('The narrator as editor') on page 282 of the book Textualization of oral epics by Lauri Honko for proof. Therefore the claim that Egharevba "made up the story" is rubbish and is more propaganda and lies from the ogbuefi of propaganda. c) Incidentally, the other thing that this is very clear is that Egharevba was definitely very serious when he said it was a "short" history of Benin. The telling of just two stories about two individuals lasted many hours: "In 1966 the grantee recorded the Edo storyteller, Mr. Iditua, telling two narratives, "Agboghidi" and "Odologie*. Their narration lasted eighteen and twelve hours respectively." - This is a description from the 1991 Yearbook of the American Philosophical Society, where the author opens his review of a rare 1981 book authored by Dan Ben-Amos, called "A Critical Edition of Two Edo (Bini) Epics," with these sentences. I wouldnt' be surprised if Dan Ben-Amos' book recording only two figures in Benin history, as told to him by a Benin man, was much larger than Egharevba's entire Short History. If I were able to obtain the book (it's costs $1188 and is rare) or somehow find it at a library somewhere, I could show decisively that the story of Agboghidi is known to the Binis in detail and is not "made up." |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 11:30am On Jul 24, 2011 |
b) Also, the Benin story of Agboghidi was told to a European in 1911, by Oba Eweka (who was then a prince and not Oba). I can provide incontrovertible proof of this, but the spambot keeps hiding the post. So the claim that Egharevba made up the story is just another lie from you. c) I will comment on the Ubulu uku issue again when the spambot regains its sanity, but for now I will move onto other things. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 11:52am On Jul 24, 2011 |
7. Finally, on Jacob Egharevba, it is true that many Binis themselves dispute some things that he wrote. For example, he initially said that brass casting only came at a certain 14th century date, when other oral traditions, and even traditions that he collected and published in his very first edition of A Short History, make a very clear reference to brass casting during the time of the Ogisos. There is also his statement about the demonym "Edo" only coming about in the 15th century, which is not all that plausible. Nevertheless, he is necessarily respected because of the huge extent of his efforts on Benin history (he wrote many books, not just A Short History of Benin) at a time when it was at risk of fading away. There are multiple things that Egharevba stated that were confirmed independently of his statements (such as the extent of Igala power, the exact time at which a certain 18th century Oba of Benin died, some of his statements about moat building taking place in certain centuries,etc.) and there are some that are contradicted by other evidence. This is not that unusual for any historian, whether the historian is recording oral history or materially documented history, so just dismissing Egharevba's work with a wave of the hand is not really sensible. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysRev: 12:30pm On Jul 24, 2011 |
@ Ogbuefi On the 8000/800 thing, you said initially that 40,000 Anioma were killed when I was only discussing the Midwestern 1967 killings, and not any of the other deaths throughout the period. Consequently it seemed very much as though you were saying 40,000 were killed in the Midwest in 1967. Only much later did you actually clarify what you meant when you said 40,000. So I don't know how you got it into your head that I claimed that Ohaneze brought a claim that 8000 were killed from 1966 to 1970 when I was not addressing that. You should have been clearer in what you meant by 40,000. Second, I did not get the 8000 figure from misreading "800". The 8000 figure for 1967 Midwest killings is from an estimate made in a newspaper by someone who was never in Nigeria and it was one of the figures (not the only figure) used by Ohaneze for a 1999 claim for compensation from the federal government. I did not read this 800 figure and it never entered into anything that I said. If the document does indeed say 800, then that is specifically for Benin, which I did not attempt to give any number for. Third, on the claim of 800 killed, yes obviously there were killings and that is clearly an estimate, and I would be interested in knowing how that figure was arrived at. I know that Giwa Amu's full quote (I have read it) on the executions in Benin describes hundreds killed, so I have no issue with the figure itself, though I don't see how his statement or the estimate of 800 based on his statement tallies with the statement that "thousands were killed in Benin by the Binis." Regardless of how it was reached, I have never seen any evidence that anybody claimed that a significant fraction of the populace of Benin was involved in pointing out 800 people for executions. That said, in every society, there are higher elements, and there are lower elements in the society, and it's not beholden upon the entire society to start apologizing for the activities of every scoundrel, criminal, extremist, or bigot in that society but if you need a personal apology, then I do apologize for what some people in Benin did and for those elsewhere in the Midwest who pointed out people for executions in 1967. However, I do not really see what the worth of that apology could be, since it is not coming from those who actually did the deed, and from someone who wasn't even born until decades from then. I don't really approve of the idea of holding whole groups to apologizing for an action that the whole group could not have had control over and holding them to it for decades or centuries. I would no more approve of a random Anioma person approaching a random Bini person and complaining and demanding an apology than I would approve of a random black person in the New World demanding an apology from a random African over slavery, when that individual had no control over the actions and choices of every segment of his group back then, no matter how small. I think the demand for some sort of "universal Midwestern apology" is misplaced and is not likely to happen anytime in the future. People sitting around waiting for apologies from whole ethnic groups over anything, and for what a very small fraction of an ethnic group did, will still keep waiting 100 years from now and 100 years after that and so on. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by NegroNtns(m): 7:11pm On Jul 24, 2011 |
Physics, I will understand the emotions of a strange African American demanding apology from a strange African for the losses of slavery. In fact I believe in and I am a proponent of the proposal to create an African reparation settlement for AA. Africa owes them, I don't care how long it has been. On the other hand, I feel differently and have no belief or support for an apology or reparation or restitution to Biafra or any entity, individual or corporate that fought on the Biafran side. An apology in our local customs is expressed and translated into the english word "sorry". To the world and international obsevers is an admission of wrongdoing. Admitting wrongdoing then makes you culpable for whatever charges are trumped up against you and the victim then has a legitimate claim to a settlenment for their pain and losses. Let us not forget, majority Igbo East of the niger has a strong sense of pride and spiritual attachment and for Oshimili, the birth place of Nzeogwu in the Anioma region, than he does for his own soil in umuahia or aba or owerri, or onicha or enugu. Prior to the January 66 coup Oshimili was not a consciously-spirited idea for the Igbo, but Nzeogwu became a hero and after his death his birthplace gained a Biafran status as the home of the brave and was thus elevated into a cultural idea for them. It is indeed reported that majority of the Igbo coup plotters were of Anioma region. Why would Igbo want apology for Anioma and or any Biafran for the reprisal of a nationwide calculated terror that originated from Anioma Igbos on behalf of the entire Igboland? It was no doubt an Igbo assault given the joy and cheers of Igbo voices jeering and ridiculing the Northerners. Igbo owe apology to you Mid-Westerners of non-Igbo stock. True talk! |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by AndreUweh(m): 1:38pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns:It is an outright stupidity for ill-informed fellow to chat the above in bold. What do you know about Igbo and Asaba history, have you ever been there or lived there?. Was it not in Oshimiri especially Asaba that the first Igbo conference in 1907 was held. Was Asaba dialect not one of the IGBO DIALECTS chosen for the translation of Igbo bible by the missionaries?. It is an exercise in futility for a non IGBO to chat a load of rubbish about Igbo. My guy, give it up. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 2:29pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns: How, where, how do these people come up with this shit? |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by vicenzo(m): 2:53pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
Na wa o! Some people don corner this thread,imagine physics HD,REV,QED,RND,etc,posting for a whole page,alone. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsQED(m): 4:46pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns: What you're talking about has very little do with what I'm talking about. If an Igbo man was living in Benin or Warri or Sapele, minding his own business, and then he was taken out of his house to be executed, how can you say he was "fighting on the Biafran side"? My issue with this "ethnic apology" crap is that it doesn't make sense. If the federal troops ask for every Igbo man in a city to be rounded up (to be executed), is there some sort of ethnicity-wide decision taken, or is the entire ethnicity supposed to control the actions of each person? It's outright stupidity to compare it to nearly the whole of Germany, or the majority of Hutus backing the actions of the lowest elements of their society, yet the very first poster who came in with this "ethnic apology" stuff went to great lengths to try to make his demand for an apology seem reasonable. His whole scenario was false. There was no widespread involvement of the majority of the populace of the city, let alone the entire ethnic group, and there was not some sustained effort to "break the Igbo spirit" by that ethnic group. He has issues and I don't think should bother responding to anything else that character has to say. Concerning an "admission of wrongdoing" that's the other issue. Not only would "admissions of wrongdoing" have to go both ways, they would have to come from the actual people from that time (some of whom are certainly still alive) who did wrong, whether we're talking about the imbeciles who declared an Igbo-run "republic of Benin" without consulting any Benin leaders (or the non-Benins who might object to it) or the criminals who had innocent people executed for their own personal gain. Coming from anybody else, the "admissions of wrongdoing" make no sense and if these admissions are accepted, then this amounts to a deliberate decision on the part of the person accepting the apology to trick the person apologizing into admitting to something they didn't do and don't have anything to do with. That's fraudulence. I think you misinterpreted my apology because I wasn't clear enough. It has nothing to do with "admitting wrongdoing", but rather, expressing regret over what happened. My expressing regret over what those people did is not the same as admitting wrongdoing. I can't admit wrongdoing for something I didn't do and had no control over. But what happened in those cities in 1967 was regrettable. That's something that anybody (including you) should be able to agree with regardless of their views on Biafra. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 5:47pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns:I know for sure you do not know what you're talking about. 1 Like |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by igboboy1(m): 10:34pm On Jul 25, 2011 |
These two physicists abi na physicians una dey spam this page, ah ah only una just dey post one page worth of postings,  |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by NegroNtns(m): 12:49am On Jul 26, 2011 |
Physics, Thnx for that clarity and yes, blood is blood and life is very precious. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by igboboy1(m): 12:55am On Jul 26, 2011 |
is negro becoming rational?  |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by henry101(m): 6:27am On Jul 26, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns: You are an eeediiotttt. How dare you come up with that crap. You becoming so stoppuid. Opunu Oshi. I pray you dont stop this stooppuuiiddd yarns till any Igbo runs you madddd. You spend your entire life bashing anything Igbo, ehh, you go tire. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Abagworo(m): 10:16am On Jul 26, 2011 |
My verdict is that indigenous Igbo in Delta is same as indeginous Igbo every where.We remain a great people united by our common tongue,influenced at all our edges by neighbouring cultures but yet retain that ingenuity that stands us out from most other Nigerians.We have been resilient in the face of obvious cheating,balkanization and other political cum physical intimidation.The weak ones like Agbotaen are scared and think the easy way out is self denial but as usual their so called new friends will massacre them when the chips are down. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by AndreUweh(m): 11:25am On Jul 26, 2011 |
Abagworo:WORD. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by vicenzo(m): 12:38pm On Jul 26, 2011 |
Abagworo: Nnaa,dalu sor. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by kindla(f): 12:36pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
Inferiority Complex because she fears that she might not be able to prove her igboness before other igbo due to her lack of knowledge of her history hence the easy escape route of claiming to be a different igbo or non-igbo to cover up her lack. If you say you are not igbo, then give us the historical antecedent rather than bandy ordinary words not based on history. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by kindla(f): 12:39pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
vicenzo: Andre Uweh: Abagworo: |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by AndreUweh(m): 12:51pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
kindla:Well said. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by NegroNtns(m): 3:04pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
Abagworo, Each time I ask somebody I ge a different story on who is Igbo and who is not. Yesterday I asked somebody and he was making blunders but it appeared I was getting it until one of you guys came in and stopped him. I hear you say Igbo is not any one person like Oduduwa or Bayajjida but then that makes Igbo indigeneous. Soon as I sink that in and settle down, then I get somebody say Igbos are from smewhere else. So I'm going to ask you from my understanding yesterday, Eri was a settler who setted in Nri. Aro was a confederacy of Igbo clans. These clans through their confederacy dominated Eri and so the settlers were absorbed in. But we know in some cases of such settler/aborigine contact some things are lost and others are gained. For example, fulani settled and became ruling class in North but the aborigine retained its language and took the settler's religion. In the case of Yoruba, the settler replaced everything belonged to the aborigine except the environment itself. Use these examples to explain the gain/loss between Aro/Eri. I'm assuming Aro are aborigines but that's probably wrong. Also, in almost every culture the ruling class is almost always the settler. Aro as a ruling class must itself be a settler over some aborigines. If Aro is aborigine then something is wrong with Eri to be so wimp as to allow domination by the aborigine. Partiularly it is said that Eri came from Afro-Asia, no Afro-Asiatic group came to any sub saharan part of Africa and was subdued and dominated by the aborigine or a pre-existing settler. Something is wrong in Eri unless these people telling his story did not understand uit well. Help me out. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Abagworo(m): 10:59pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
@negro-ntns.I presume your question is in uthmost good faith and therefore will give an answer based on what I have read and experienced.The Yorubas may not actually be traced to one progenitor as you may believe but they had what Igbos lack which is an all Yoruba empire headed by the Oyo.No one was able to conquer or organize the Igbo into a single large political territory with a sense of Nationhood.That is the reason why we still know our differences till today. Igbo is a very loose ethnic group and hence the need to avoid all these neo-ethnic off shoots.The Nri are known as the custodian of Igbo culture but their influence does not spread beyond some parts of Igboland.So many groups of people came from several places to found what is today known as Igboland but the most important factor is language.I suspect that the language we all speak might actually have originated from Isu and corrupted into the various dialects.Isu might actually be the most important group in Igbo and might have been there before the Nri.Going by the map of Igbo,the Isu live at the central area. So my personal belief in origin of some aspects of Igbo is Language - Isu Culture - Nri-Edo-Ijaw-Ejagham-Ibibio-Igala in unequal proportions Religion - Aro-Nri-Edo in unequal proportions |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 11:05pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
Edo culture is not prevalent in Igboland, whereas their political structure is. Ibibio influence in religion is more than Edo. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Abagworo(m): 11:20pm On Jul 28, 2011 |
ezeagu: Yes I omitted that.I am aware that some Ngwas,Ndokis and Asas worship same God 'Nkwo Abasi" as Efiks.The Eastern stretch substitute Chineke with Ukpabi or Obasi just like the west substitute Chineke with Oselobue,Osebulua or Olisebuluwa. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by NegroNtns(m): 6:42am On Jul 29, 2011 |
From what you explained here, then Igbo is not monolithic on culture, religion, rituals, customs, but language is the only common thread and the dna of identity. In Yorubaland the common thread or dna of identity is hereditary link and rituals. In Hausa the dna of identity is religion and rituals. Thank you my man. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by otapiapia: 3:40pm On Jul 29, 2011 |
Negro_Ntns: Yoruba royal families have a different ancestry with the rest of yorubas. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by tpia5: 4:07pm On Jul 29, 2011 |
No they dont. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by otapiapia: 6:41pm On Jul 29, 2011 |
tpia@: Is Oduduwa their father a yoruba man? I thought you guys said he fell off from the skies and met the yoruba people that he ruled over according to your 'kindergarten' origin stories. |
| Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by tpia5: 6:45pm On Jul 29, 2011 |
That's your own problem, not mine. |
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