babapupa:


Trust me, we have lot of dumb thinkers on NL.

Mind you the same characters yelled and cried the same negative songs before BRT, it was labeled white elephant and other ridiculous nonsense.

Pple may have contrary views to yours. It doesnt mke them dumb. I wasnt part of the BRT thread and so would nt know what went down. I do know that Some Fashola's ideas though are weired, unrealistic and sometimes plain crazy like the cctv project (I like to know how much the good pple of Lagos got bilked on that one).

debosky:

How have you come to such a conclusion?  

Kindly outline the risks that you feel do not justify a project of this kind, bearing in mind the multiple examples both worldwide and in Lagos itself.

I have done that at least twice if you take the pain to read.

What most peeps who are opposed to this project are saying is that if this pvt company have a second look at what they are abt to embark on, they will find that they stand to make a much higher ROI if they commit such collossal funds to develop already available land. There are hectares and hectares of land waiting to be developed. They should not think 'inside the box'. You can build an alterntive business district away from Ikoyi and VI that will be just as respected without inherent risks involved in developing a project of this magnitude.

Kobojunkie:

  How about we try this. Do you have evidence that he did not ?

LOL, got jokes!  You said the government said something and I should bring evidence they did not?

nulldev:

LOL, got jokes!  You said the government said something and I should bring evidence they did not?

duh!! Prove me wrong . . make my day!!

m I seeing things or did you just channel my point? Last time I checked Canary Wharf isn't an island

.


[size=14pt]Canary Wharf is in the Isle of dog, a semi Island  caused by an extreme winding River Thames. [/size]

Thank you know all!

KnowAll:

.


[size=14pt]Canary Wharf is in the Isle of dog, a semi Island  caused by an extreme winding River Thames. [/size]

An artificial island, the context was an artificial island,. . . . . . . obviously.

Kobojunkie:

duh!! Prove me wrong . .  make my day!!

You said they claimed it was ppp, shouldn't you have evidence of this claim? Good ol nairaland where logic stands on its head.

nulldev:

You said they claimed it was ppp, shouldn't you have evidence of this claim? Good ol nairaland where logic stands on its head.

Nope!! You challenged my claim and I asked you to prove me wrong. This is not about nairaland and it is quite logical to be asked to prove someone wrong. I stand by what I said, if you have any information that says what I posted is wrong, show it! It is really that simple/uncomplicated.

ezeagu

Right, artificial land? used for business?


The Isle of Dogs is situated some distance downriver from the City of London. The area was originally a sparsely populated marshland before its drainage and planting in the 13th century. Dutch engineers reclaimed the land 17th later urbanised,

Yinkaboy:

ezeagu

Right, artificial land? used for business?


The Isle of Dogs is situated some distance downriver from the City of London. The area was originally a sparsely populated marshland before its drainage and planting in the 13th century. Dutch engineers reclaimed the land 17th later urbanised,

Are you telling me that the isle of dogs development was on the same scale as Eko Atlantic extending a whole city out of London? Was the isle of dogs not already there, and if it was a developed abandoned plot, how does this counter my point?

What I am saying is what ever semantics you want to use, or what ever examples you want canary wharf, dubai,
boston, san franscico, the premise is the same the reclaiming of land, or islands, for the use of building new parts of the city. Even Alexandria by Alexander the great.

It is feasible and will continue to happen.

Are you telling me that the isle of dogs development was on the same scale as Eko Atlantic extending a whole city out of London? Was the isle of dogs not already there, and if it was a developed abandoned plot, how does this counter my poin

[size=14pt]There is know difference between Lagos reclaiming lands lost to the sea and the Isle of Dog which happens to be reclaimed marshlands from the R. Thames and it is not an artificial Island. It is a natural Island caused by OX-Bow lake formation of the R. Thames.[/size]

Yinkaboy:

What I am saying is what ever semantics you want to use, or what ever examples you want canary wharf, dubai,
boston, san franscico, the premise is the same the reclaiming of land, or islands, for the use of building new parts of the city. Even Alexandria by Alexander the great.

It is feasible and will continue to happen.

Lagos is on the level of Alexandria, Dubai, Boston and San Francisco?

KnowAll:


[size=14pt]It is a natural Island caused by OX-Bow lake formation of the R. Thames.[/size]

Exactly so how is there no difference?

Wow-eze

Do know your history? Have you ever left naija? These place had slums just like Lagos, before they developed, most cities did up until 40 years, when Lagos was small. Lagos is having the same problems as victorian London, the main difference is that UK has industralized, and naija is industralizing just like mumbai, Sao Paol, Jakarta and Manilla, hence the need for a new island.


The largest slum in the world is in mumbai, and they basically built a brand new modern city as well.Its called New Mumbai

Princek12:

Yes. Of course, my point all along is that the financiers in NY and UK, and even as far as maybe other European countries, no longer dominate investments in Nigeria, in light of the emergence of Lebanese, Asian and Indian companies, among other non-western companies, many of whom have keen interests in African investments.

And what International Bond, Equity, Currency Markest do these Lebanese, Asian & Indian companies go to to raise funds for the Investment lol!!!

Apart from Chinese Companies, who have the benefit of 3 triilion dollars
in Currency reserves from the Peoples Bank of China to draw from
every other Foreign Investor has one foot in London, New-york or Franfurt,

Martinosi,

dude sorry, energing market finance is being done by soveign wealth funds, and private companies, not in London or NYC. There is not the liquidity for these project for internation al bonds sovereign debt has pushed these people out.

Pennywise:

I have done that at least twice if you take the pain to read.

What most peeps who are opposed to this project are saying is that if this pvt company have a second look at what they are abt to embark on, they will find that they stand to make a much higher ROI if they commit such collossal funds to develop already available land. There are hectares and hectares of land waiting to be developed. They should not think 'inside a box'. You can build an alterntive business district away from Ikoyi and VI that will be just as respected without inherent risks involved in developing a project of this magnitude.

That you can build an alternative doesn't equate with an assertion that the risks and costs aren't justified.

Regarding ROI, I would believe the originators/backers would have carried out their costings beforehand and consider it a good enough investment for them. To simply say  that they could make much higher ROI is debatable - where are the calculations and figures to justify this?  

Corporate bodies have expressed frustration at the shortage of prime land for development in V/I and environs. There isn't much of a desire to move to some distant new centre of commerce, so something in close proximity is desired. As that need is currently in existence, backed with an ability to meet the need (i.e. the corporate bodies can pay for this prime real estate), the project can claim to be justified.

From a risk perspective, if experts from the Netherlands (one of the greatest examples of land reclamation worldwide) have been deeply involved in the development, I would consider the risks well managed.

Besides, you can always claim there will be better investments - but those kinds of developments may not be suited to this particular developer's capabilities or their business model/vision. The parent company of the firm involved in the current development has been at the forefront of real estate developments involving reclaimed land, so it is not surprising to see them taking the next logical step as it were.

If there truly is an opportunity to make much higher returns in other areas, then let other developers come in as well and develop the other areas. As far as I'm aware, the government has not said that other developers would be denied the opportunity to embark on projects elsewhere in Lagos because of Eko Atlantic.

Yinkaboy:

Martinosi,

dude sorry, energing market finance is being done by soveign wealth funds, and private companies, not in London or NYC. There is not the liquidity for these project for internation al bonds sovereign debt has pushed these people out.

Hmmm lol, i guess u guys think that 1st Bank, GTB & FCMB are just going to
splash out £500 million for a Devlopment Project! ROFLMAO!!!,

You guys need to calm down!!!

IT JUST THE WAY THIS TYPE OF FINANCING IS, DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER!!!

The revenues of 1st Bank on average over the last 3 years has been roughly
$500 million!.The "Eko-Atlantic" project is estimated at $450 million and that
does not include "External Outlays(unfor-seen developemnts)" and cost Over-runs.

Take it or leave it, they went to the International Bond Market to
secure the fundings, No bank in Nigeria has the "Testicular Fortitude" or "Lever" as they say in Naija to use their own funds to finance this project.

CCCG (China Communications Construction Group,) has to get paid abi, and they need concrete and firm Gurantee's that this will happen,

The National Financing Partners of this project (1st Bank, GTB & FCMB)
Went to the International Bond Market (the City of London ie Square-mile/Canary-wharf, Wall street, New York, Frankfurt, Hong-Kong etc)
to get the financing arrangement in place to give companies like CCCG, and the Foriegn Sub-contractors of South Energyx Nigeria Ltd rest of mind to do this project,

My Gut Instinct tells me that Pimco is privy to any arrangement but i shall
enquire further and find out what the core financing scope is, watch this post.

Kobojunkie:

Nope!! You challenged my claim and I asked you to prove me wrong. This is not about nairaland and it is quite logical to be asked to prove someone wrong. I stand by what I said, if you have any information that says what I posted is wrong, show it! It is really that simple/uncomplicated.

Yeah, sure that's how it works,  I should go get evidence that something that probably never happened did not happen? You do realise you did not post any information but made a rather vague allegation without any specifics? When was this claim made? Have a date and/or audience at said event so we can narrow down the window a bit?

Yinkaboy:

Martinosi,

dude sorry, energing market finance is being done by soveign wealth funds, and private companies, not in London or NYC. There is not the liquidity for these project for internation al bonds sovereign debt has pushed these people out.

When Soveriegn Wealth Funds are involved it will be clear to all but thats only used by Middle-Eastern, South East Asian and other emerging states that are investing on a Strategic lNational evel ie Kuwait in East African Agriculture or CNOOC in various oil blocks in African Countries,

Yinkaboy:

Wow-eze

Do know your history? Have you ever left naija? These place had slums just like Lagos, before they developed, most cities did up until 40 years, when Lagos was small. Lagos is having the same problems as victorian London, the main difference is that UK has industralized, and naija is industralizing just like mumbai, Sao Paol, Jakarta and Manilla, hence the need for a new island.


The largest slum in the world is in mumbai, and they basically built a brand new modern city as well.Its called New Mumbai

Victorian London had running water and light, it had proper housing, even in its slums. New Mumbai is another city altogether. Lagos overall does not even have the level of maintained electricity Mumbai slums have, and you want to build a new city? Do you know that there are no power failures in Mumbai slums? Did you know these slums get running water? Keep comparing Lagos to Sao Paulo and Tokyo.

ezeagu:

Victorian London had running water and light, it had proper housing, even in its slums. New Mumbai is another city altogether. Lagos overall does not even have the level of maintained electricity Mumbai slums have, and you want to build a new city? Do you know that there are no power failures in Mumbai slums? Did you know these slums get running water? Keep comparing Lagos to Sao Paulo and Tokyo.

There are power cuts in Mumbai - not only the slums. Again, avoid making hasty comments. http://www.hindustantimes.com/Power-cuts-return-to--City-s-eastern-suburbs/Article1-535438.aspx

Analysts say that the availability of power in Mumbai is around 2,350 mw against the demand of over 3,000 mw. The deficit is increasing annually.

While issues of power generation/availability exist in Lagos, the government is trying to tackle them as we speak - asking the FG to sell the local distribution companies to LASG, so they can accelerate power development in Lagos. If you are saying all other issues must be solved in Lagos before embarking on large infrastructure projects like these, then you are mistaken. One does not need to happen before the other progresses.

One does not need to happen before the other progresses

oh yeah,
why don't you put your roof b4 foundation then, is that not what we are advocating here.?

debosky:

There are power cuts in Mumbai - not only the slums. Again, avoid making hasty comments. http://www.hindustantimes.com/Power-cuts-return-to--City-s-eastern-suburbs/Article1-535438.aspx

Analysts say that the availability of power in Mumbai is around 2,350 mw against the demand of over 3,000 mw. The deficit is increasing annually.

While issues of power generation/availability exist in Lagos, the government is trying to tackle them as we speak - asking the FG to sell the local distribution companies to LASG, so they can accelerate power development in Lagos. If you are saying all other issues must be solved in Lagos before embarking on large infrastructure projects like these, then you are mistaken. One does not need to happen before the other progresses.

LOL@ people dreaming up facts without bothering to check.

debosky:

That you can build an alternative doesn't equate with an assertion that the risks and costs aren't justified.

Regarding ROI, I would believe the originators/backers would have carried out their costings beforehand and consider it a good enough investment for them. To simply say  that they could make much higher ROI is debatable - where are the calculations and figures to justify this?  

Corporate bodies have expressed frustration at the shortage of prime land for development in V/I and environs. There isn't much of a desire to move to some distant new centre of commerce, so something in close proximity is desired. As that need is currently in existence, backed with an ability to meet the need (i.e. the corporate bodies can pay for this prime real estate), the project can claim to be justified.

From a risk perspective, if experts from the Netherlands (one of the greatest examples of land reclamation worldwide) have been deeply involved in the development, I would consider the risks well managed.

Besides, you can always claim there will be better investments - but those kinds of developments may not be suited to this particular developer's capabilities or their business model/vision. The parent company of the firm involved in the current development has been at the forefront of real estate developments involving reclaimed land, so it is not surprising to see them taking the next logical step as it were.

If there truly is an opportunity to make much higher returns in other areas, then let other developers come in as well and develop the other areas. As far as I'm aware, the government has not said that other developers would be denied the opportunity to embark on projects elsewhere in Lagos because of Eko Atlantic.

I refered u to my response in respect of risk inherent to a project of this magnitude (nothing to do with business options), apparently you did not read.

Excerpt

We are not talking abt reclaiming marshland or swampy areas. You are taking on the atlantic ocean. Reclamation may fail. Your artificial coastline may collapse leading to dangerous flooding. Kms of built up areas and inhabitants can be under water in minutes.

The metropolis may be crowded but there are still large hundreds of km sq of solid land within Lagos state.

The dutch are known worldwide for their feats in projects like this owing to decades if not centuries of experience in their  own enviroment. But note that even for them, the struggle is a continous one. They have the men, the tools and the equipment that they keep modifying for the purpose. If the artificial shoreline that will be created is breached, before you bring in any dutch engr, a thousand Nigerians are dead. You can forget about the property loss.

We must not fail to see this project for what it is. An ego trip of a company that thinks it has arrived. When you take on an ocean the rules are changed. You can forget about whatever you have been doing. If lives are lost needlessly both the company and the acquiescing Lagos govt should be sued for their last kobo. You get nothing from the govt as usual but the coy will pay. A series of litigations like this is all it needs to smoke it out of 'its island'.

debosky:

There are power cuts in Mumbai - not only the slums. Again, avoid making hasty comments. http://www.hindustantimes.com/Power-cuts-return-to--City-s-eastern-suburbs/Article1-535438.aspx

Analysts say that the availability of power in Mumbai is around 2,350 mw against the demand of over 3,000 mw. The deficit is increasing annually.

The thing is slums in Mumbai get power more than Lagos those, and they have running water, picking out parts of a  searched article does nothing to help your argument that Lagos is in a position to diverge from its most pressing issues.

This is Mumbai slums with a working train system:

nulldev:

LOL@ people dreaming up facts without bothering to check.

LOL@ people searching up random articles for their facts.

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/football/832485-london-power-cut-causes-thousands-to-miss-england-v-slovenia

ode remo:

oh yeah,
why don't you put  your roof b4 foundation then, is that not what we are advocating here.?

Is it your money? Is it government money? So wetin consain you with how a private group wants to spend their money? Argument just for the sake of it?

Eze

Lets get back to history and giving you some education. Dude, I am serious it shows you never left naija, these grand statements


London had megaslum in victoriamn times, most of east london was a slum , http://www.victorianlondon.org/houses/slums.htm


As to comparing it Mumbai, its a perfect example, the largest slums in the world are in Asia mainly Mumbai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharavi, as my boy have stated  they problems with power and water, ere our friends at the bbc can tell you http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8138273.stm.

As to building a new city, they have  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mumbai, they were not small minded, they were able to take a leap forward.

Sky Blue:

Is it your money? Is it government money? So wetin consain you with how a private group wants to spend their money? Argument just for the sake of it?

You could be the first person that will be swept away if the landfill fails.

If the company insist on going ahead with this needless project a responsible govt which appreciates the risk to its citizens and its enviroment will tax them appropriately- both state and federal. Even local should find sth in their books.

martinosi

International bond market right, I get it, but did you know that SP and Moodys the credit agencies did not give these banks your bragging about a rating. Meaning international banks did not know there credit worthiness. The banks had to finance the debt strictly through the domestic market. Its also the main reason the CBN has tried to come in clean up the banks. Without a credut rating, no good corporate governance no international bonds. Your looking at a western model, not how business is done in Naija and emerging markets!

Pimco had nothing to do with this at all. Sorry, dude!

If you don`t believe https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-474907.0.html

A power cut = Power supply not meeting demand?   you lot keep cracking me up. No power failures in Mumbai,