Perfectbeing:


Jesusjnr, what's the purpose for Jesus' death? Since according to you, man could be saved before his death..

Why don't you ask Jesus because He was the one that told that woman she was saved before His death and resurrection, and I'm only just repeating what He said.

However i would try and use illustrations to oblige you such as one that you could very well relate to which is the advance, you know just like people say merry Christmas or happy new year in advance, even though it has not yet reached the day.

So Jesus was already the Savior of the world even prior to His death and resurrection, so even though He had not yet done it, it was only a matter of time.

So it was already His in advance, so if He saw anyone that had done what was required even before His death, He could give it to you and it would be yours from that very moment.

Another illustration is like King David, who was already king once he was anointed, despite that it took him several years before he sat physically on his throne, for in God's sight he was already the King of Israel by virtue of the anointing.

One more illustration is like a man who has been given a kingdom but yet to claim it, however he starts to appoint people that would work with him, and allocate to them places in the kingdom even though he had not yet claimed it, for it's his so it's his prerogative to do whatever he wanted with it, so any place he allocated to anyone automatically becomes that person's possession from that very moment even though he had not claimed it yet!

MuttleyLaff:
"Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
- John 3:3

Perfectbeing, was the kingdom of God at this juncture and/or time seen or not seen?

No it wasn't..

Before I explain further I must state this.
The only way a scripture can be taught or interpreted appropriately is by using other scriptures to explain it. Our interpretation shouldn't be what we think or what a scripture should say but how it is explained from other scriptures.
Unclear scriptures should be explained from other scriptures and not with head knowledge.

In john 2:23, it was stated that people believed in Jesus when the saw his miracles. They only believed Jesus cos of his miracles not cos of who he was. Verse 24 confirms this when it said Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men. He knew those that were with him only there cos of what they could get from him..

And I tell you even our dear Nicodemus was part of those people. Look what he said in John 3:2;.. we know you're a teacher from God" see his reason for that; " no man can do these miracles you do except God be with him.
He only believed God was with Jesus cos of the miracles Jesus did.

In verse 3, Jesus told him, "...Except a man is born again be cannot see the kingdom of God."

When Nick didn't quite get what Jesus meant by being born again, Jesus explained further what he meant in verse 5; .. except a man is born of water and blood he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Verse 3 and 5 are saying the same thing. Jesus interchanged "born again" with "born of water" and "see" with "enter." Seeing the kingdom of God and entering it meant the same thing in this passage..

Further explanation of "seeing/entering" the kingdom was given when Nicodemus asked in verse 9, ".. how can this be?"

Jesus explained in verse 13 that "no man hath ascended up to heaven." Meaning no man has seen/entered the kingdom of God before. No man had ever been born again or saved prior to Jesus birth or death.

And he Verse 15 and 16, he gave us the clearest picture of what be meant by being born again. ".. whosoever believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life."


Salvation was all he was talking to Nicodemus about and nothing else. Salvation which is gotten when one believe in his death and resurrection is what he was saying to Nick.

Seeing/entering into Gods kingdom is only possible when one is born again or saved.. This state of being born again is achieved only when one believes in Jesus.

I call you blessed...

Perfectbeing:


From your first paragraph it seems you differed salvation from being born again... Is that the case?

exactly,
Salvation and born again do not fall into the same category

Perfectbeing:
No it wasn't..

Before I explain further I must state this.
The only way a scripture can be taught or interpreted appropriately is by using other scriptures to explain it. Our interpretation shouldn't be what we think or what a scripture should say but how it is explained from other scriptures.
Unclear scriptures should be explained from other scriptures and not with head knowledge.

In John 2:23, it was stated that people believed in Jesus when the saw his miracles.
They only believed Jesus cos of his miracles not cos of who he was.
Verse 24 confirms this when it said Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men.
He knew those that were with him only there cos of what they could get from him..

And I tell you even our dear Nicodemus was part of those people.
Look what he said in John 3:2;
.. we know you're a teacher from God" see his reason for that; " no man can do these miracles you do except God be with him.
He only believed God was with Jesus cos of the miracles Jesus did.

Remember Nicodemus was a Pharisee,
and the Pharisees' idea of what the Messiah and His Kingdom is or would be, is different
Nicodemus' bone of contention is who is Jesus, is Jesus the Messiah or not
The reason for Nicodemus' clandestine and dead of the night visit, was to seek the truth, to know who Jesus is

Perfectbeing:
In verse 3, Jesus told him, "...Except a man is born again be cannot see the kingdom of God."

When Nick didn't quite get what Jesus meant by being born again,
Jesus explained further what he meant in verse 5;
.. except a man is born of water and blood he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Verse 3 and 5 are saying the same thing. Jesus interchanged "born again" with "born of water" and "see" with "enter."
Seeing the kingdom of God and entering it meant the same thing in this passage..

Further explanation of "seeing/entering" the kingdom was given when Nicodemus asked in verse 9, ".. how can this be?"

Jesus explained in verse 13 that "no man hath ascended up to heaven." Meaning no man has seen/entered the kingdom of God before. No man had ever been born again or saved prior to Jesus birth or death.

And he Verse 15 and 16, he gave us the clearest picture of what be meant by being born again.
".. whosoever believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life."

Salvation was all he was talking to Nicodemus about and nothing else.
Salvation which is gotten when one believe in his death and resurrection is what he was saying to Nick.

Seeing/entering into Gods kingdom is only possible when one is born again or saved..
This state of being born again is achieved only when one believes in Jesus.

I call you blessed...

Nicodemus had a problem with understanding the concept of regeneration
Seeing God's kingdom and entering into God's kingdom are not synonymous
They might be related but they certainly dont have the same meaning
Jesus explained what the criteria for entering into God's kingdom is (i.e. man be born of water and of the Spirit...)

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation
It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

Will not only see the demonstrations & power of the kingdom of God
but ultimately will enter into the kingdom of God

Scoffers, mockers, cynics, pagans etcetera will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Why you think there are atheists?
It is because regeneration has not taken place in them.

Born Again didnt publicly need to be preached by Jesus because it is a straightforward fact,
and Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus who happens to be a teacher, didnt know this
nor know that Born Again can be a prerequisite for salvation

Born Again and salvation, though are not in the same category, they nonetheless are related

Lastly, verse 13 and the rest, is trying to convince Nicodemus who is still wrestling with the thought of who Jesus really is
Jesus is telling Nicodemus not to fight the regeneration,
because salvation afterall comes from Him, following regeneration, following born again or following born from above

MuttleyLaff:
May God's blessing and grace not diminish from you

Amen!

Born Again preceded salvation
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation

you are absolutely correct

It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation

but John the baptist was born again, he was never privileged to have the gift of salvation. He was killed before salvation was fully established when Christ resurrected.
The same thing applies to Judas Iscariot, he was born again too infact he was closer to Jesus than any other disciple yet he lost salvation and killed himself.

Since you didnt answer my "was the kingdom of God at this juncture and/or time seen or not seen?" question

the kingdom of God was seen

Check out John 2:23 to read about people seeing the demostration of power of the kingdom of God
John 2:23, IMHO, is where John 3, should have actually and appropiately started.

that is very correct

Scoffers, mockers, cynics, pagans etcetera will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Regeneration has not taken place in them

it is true that those disciples who followed Jesus were born from above or spiritually rebirthed due to the fact that not everyone who heard about Jesus in those days decided to follow him.
Those who choosed not to follow him were not spiritually rebirthed just like the scoffers, mockers, cynics and pagans of today.
But that notwithstanding, not all who were spiritually rebirthed or born from above and followed jesus in those days ended up seeing Gods kingdom.
Jesus even confirmed that not all who called him lord lord will see the kingdom and that was what happened.

It didnt publicly need to be preached because it is a straightforward fact,
and Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus who happens to be a teacher, didnt know this and all

its very possible!
One can be a teacher of the bible yet he knows very little about it.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This things are very easy to pick. Here is the scene between Jesus and Nicodemus.

In vs 4 Jesus made him know the criterion for seeing God’s kingdom- being born again. Now, Nicodemus seemed confused about the term just like so many people are.

Jesus then went ahead in vs 14 to explain born again to him, saying, “look here, I must go to the cross and die and be resurrected from the dead, and then anyone that believes in this work of redemption shall be saved vs 15.

He then went on to tell him what his purpose for coming into the world was vs 16. God sent Jesus into the world to save the world. How? By going to the cross as a sacrifice and coming back from the grave making Him the first born again from man’s dead nature Col 1: 18

Someone was asking yesterday, that how could Jesus who knew no sin be the first born from man’s dead nature. Simple. God imputed the sin of the whole world on him. See that here:

2 cor 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That should help.

Guys, carefully read that story up there, and if you are not going to be biased you can easily pick your answers from there. Now, if still have any confusions, I will just tell you to define the term “born- again” correctly, like I’ve been saying since yesterday and that will free you in the mind.

MuttleyLaff:
Before then

It couldn't have been, because it's the Spirit that baptizes one into the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And He came on Pentecost. So no one could have be born again before Pentecost.

MuttleyLaff:
Remember Nicodemus was a Pharisee,
and the Pharisees' idea of what the Messiah and His Kingdom is or would be, is different
Nicodemus' bone of contention is who is Jesus, is Jesus the Messiah or not
The reason for Nicodemus' clandestine and dead of the night visit, was to seek the truth, to know who Jesus is

Nicodemus had a problem with understanding the concept of regeneration
Seeing God's kingdom and entering into God's kingdom are not synonymous
They might be related but they certainly dont have the same meaning
Jesus explained what the criteria for entering into God's kingdom is (i.e. man be born of water and of the Spirit...)

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation
It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

Will not only see the demonstrations & power of the kingdom of God
but ultimately will enter into the kingdom of God

Scoffers, mockers, cynics, pagans etcetera will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Why you think there are atheists?
It is because regeneration has not taken place in them.

Born Again didnt publicly need to be preached by Jesus because it is a straightforward fact,
and Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus who happens to be a teacher, didnt know this
nor know that Born Again can be a prerequisite for salvation

Born Again and salvation, though are not in the same category, they nonetheless are related

Lastly, verse 13 and the rest, is trying to convince Nicodemus who is still wrestling with the thought of who Jesus really is
Jesus is telling Nicodemus not to fight the regeneration,
because salvation afterall comes from Him, following regeneration, following born again or following born from above

Jesus was talking about the same thing in verse 3,5,15 and 16.

For you to say that "seeing" and "entering" Gods kingdom are different, then you also mean to be "born again" is different from being "born of water."
Jesus couldn't having been saying different things in verse 3 and 5. Read it again.
3. verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see kingdom of God. The pharisees have always thought that Gods kingdom was a physical kingdom, hence Nick asked in verse 4; ".. How can a man be born when he's old? Can he enter the second time into his mothers womb and be born?".

Jesus explained what he meant be being born again from verse 5 downwards.
5. " verily I say unto you except a man be born of water and of spirit , he cannot. enter the kingdom of God.
Verse 5 was a clear explanation of verse 3 and not different from verse 3.

Like I said earlier, for you to say "seeing God's kingdom is different from "entering it" in this two verses, then you must also mean that being "born again" and being "born of water and spirit" are also different as at used in both verses.

Now concerning being born again and salvation, they are also the same thing. One doesn't precede the other. For that to be true then you mean that someone can be born again and not yet have salvation. Or someone can have salvation and not yet born again.

From your definition of being born again, it means the thief and the cross wasn't born again but yet saved. Unless you want to mean the process of being born again and salvation didn't occur at the same instant (probably it had some seconds or maybe minutes space between the two to occur.)


Remember his exact words were " verily I say unto you, today thou shall be with me in paradise."
I'm sure you'd agree with me that "paradise" used in this context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing.

The thief had the privilege of entering God's kingdom by just one act- believe. He was saved/born again when he believed and that gave him the opportunity of entering into God's kingdom/paradise...

paxonel:
Amen!
you are absolutely correct
but John the baptist was born again, he was never privileged to have the gift of salvation. He was killed before salvation was fully established when Christ resurrected.
The same thing applies to Judas Iscariot, he was born again too infact he was closer to Jesus than any other disciple yet he lost salvation and killed himself.
the kingdom of God was seen
that is very correct
it is true that those disciples who followed Jesus were born from above or spiritually rebirthed due to the fact that not everyone who heard about Jesus in those days decided to follow him.
Those who choosed not to follow him were not spiritually rebirthed just like the scoffers, mockers, cynics and pagans of today.
But that notwithstanding, not all who were spiritually rebirthed or born from above and followed jesus in those days ended up seeing Gods kingdom.
Jesus even confirmed that not all who called him lord lord will see the kingdom and that was what happened.
its very possible!
One can be a teacher of the bible yet he knows very little about it.

Paxonel, is being "born again" different from being "born of water and spirit?"

Cos from what you and muttleylaff are saying, someone who is born again can only "see" the kingdom but not enter. But someone that's born of water and spirit can "enter" God's kingdom.

So tell me, are such two sets of people different from each other??

Perfectbeing:


"Except a man is born again, he can never see the kingdom of God" - Jesus.

I want you to ponder on that.
Read the Bible if you have to and see his explanation of what born again means..

Except a man is born again he can never see the kingdom.

That simply means a man must be born again first, before he can see the kingdom.
And truly, the disciples had to follow Jesus to Jerusalem first before they were able to see and experience the crucifixion.
If they had not followed him to Jerusalem to see, there was no way they would have saw it and fully believe that Jesus was the Christ and be saved, therefore born again was the only way to the kingdom of God

It's like saying a child must go through high school first before he can be admitted into a college or university.

That means high school and university are not the same.

So, born again and the kingdom or salvation are not the same.

In those days before Jesus was crucified, born again was the only means to the kingdom. But the moment Jesus resurrected,born again at that point achieved it aim and is not needed anymore.

Having said born again was disciples following christ, there is no physical Christ to follow anymore, we are already in the kingdom of God today, which was the aim of born again.

Therefore it is far greater to be Christian than to be born again.

Perfectbeing:


Paxonel, is being "born again" different from being "born of water and spirit?"

Cos from what you and muttleylaff are saying, someone who is born again can only "see" the kingdom but not enter. But someone that's born of water and spirit can "enter" God's kingdom.

So tell me, are such two sets of people different from each other??

according to Jesus response to Nicodemus questions, born again is the same thing as born of water and of spirit.
Born of water entails the ministry of john the Baptist, remember john baptised people with water, while born of the spirit entails the ministry of Christ before he was crucified.

That notwithstanding, believers after his resurrection are still born of the spirit but that was not Jesus meant to Nicodemus,he was strictly referring to his ministry before he was crucified which is the born again he meant.

PastorDavidAwuj:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This things are very easy to pick. Here is the scene between Jesus and Nicodemus.

In vs 4 Jesus made him know the criterion for seeing God’s kingdom- being born again.
Now, Nicodemus seemed confused about the term just like so many people are.

Jesus then went ahead in vs 14 to explain born again to him, saying,
“look here, I must go to the cross and die and be resurrected from the dead,
and then anyone that believes in this work of redemption shall be saved vs 15.

He then went on to tell him what his purpose for coming into the world was vs 16.
God sent Jesus into the world to save the world.
How? By going to the cross as a sacrifice and coming back from the grave making Him the first born again from man’s dead nature Col 1: 18
Someone was asking yesterday, that how could Jesus who knew no sin be the first born from man’s dead nature.
Simple. God imputed the sin of the whole world on him. See that here:

2 cor 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

That should help.

Guys, carefully read that story up there, and if you are not going to be biased you can easily pick your answers from there.
Now, if still have any confusions, I will just tell you to define the term “born- again” correctly,
like I’ve been saying since yesterday and that will free you in the mind.

1/ PastorDavidAwuj, what was the meat in Nicodemus' opening remark?
2/ What did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see..." in reaction to what Nicodemus said with his opening remark?

donnie:
It couldn't have been, because it's the Spirit that baptizes one into the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And He came on Pentecost. So no one could have be born again before Pentecost.

donnie, please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

Perfectbeing:
Jesus was talking about the same thing in verse 3,5,15 and 16.

Jesus was talking about seeing or sight of the kingdom in verse 3,
was talking about entering or entry to the kingdom in verse 5,
was talking about salvation in verse 5,
and was talking about the love of God and the gift of salvation in verse 16.

Verses 3,5,15 and 16 are exactly the same thing.
They are related to each other but they certainly arent exactly same things

Perfectbeing:
For you to say that "seeing" and "entering" Gods kingdom are different,
then you also mean to be "born again" is different from being "born of water."

"born again" and "born of water" are different to each other
In order to see as in spiritually discern, one needs to be born again
In order to enter the kingdom, man needs to be born of water and of the Spirit (i.e. born again)

Perfectbeing:
Jesus couldn't having been saying different things in verse 3 and 5. Read it again.
3. verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see kingdom of God.
The pharisees have always thought that Gods kingdom was a physical kingdom,
hence Nick asked in verse 4;
".. How can a man be born when he's old?
Can he enter the second time into his mothers womb and be born?".

Whose fault is it then, if Pharisees have always thought that God's kingdom was a physical kingdom?
No wonder, Nicodemus was doubtful,
and Jesus wasnt impressed that Nicodemus, out of everyone, was slow on the uptake.

Perfectbeing:
Jesus explained what he meant be being born again from verse 5 downwards.
5. " verily I say unto you except a man be born of water and of spirit , he cannot. enter the kingdom of God.
Verse 5 was a clear explanation of verse 3 and not different from verse 3.

Jesus upped the ante "entering" whilst Nicodemus was still struggling and wrestling with "seeing"

Perfectbeing:
Like I said earlier, for you to say "seeing God's kingdom" is different from "entering it" in this two verses,
then you must also mean that being "born again" and being "born of water and spirit" are also different as at used in both verses.

Born again is synonymous with born of the Spirit, both mean the same thing, as in being born from above

"born again" was used by Jesus in the context of seeing
whilst "born of water and the Spirit" was used by Jesus in the context of entering

Perfectbeing:
Now concerning being born again and salvation, they are also the same thing.
One doesn't precede the other.
For that to be true then you mean that someone can be born again and not yet have salvation.
Or someone can have salvation and not yet born again.

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above or be born of the Spirit
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation

It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

Perfectbeing:
From your definition of being born again,
it means the thief and the cross wasn't born again but yet saved.
Unless you want to mean the process of being born again and salvation didn't occur at the same instant
(probably it had some seconds or maybe minutes space between the two to occur)

The thief was earlier regenerated and received salvation under a different condition that we now receive the gift of salvation under

Perfectbeing:
Remember his exact words were " verily I say unto you, today thou shall be with me in paradise."
I'm sure you'd agree with me that "paradise" used in this context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing.

I dont agree with me that "paradise" used in that context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing because they arent

Perfectbeing:
The thief had the privilege of entering God's kingdom by just one act - believe.
He was saved/born again when he believed and that gave him the opportunity of entering into God's kingdom/paradise...

The thief had the privilege of entering paradise, not yet, God's kingdom by itself.
Anyway, you can see how different the thief was compared to Nicodemus,
who was wrestling and struggling with the thought of who Jesus really is

MuttleyLaff:
1/ PastorDavidAwuj, what was the meat in Nicodemus' opening remark?
2/ What did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see..." in reaction to what Nicodemus said with his opening remark?

donnie, please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

Jesus was talking about seeing or sight of the kingdom in verse 3,
was talking about entering or entry to the kingdom in verse 5,
was talking about salvation in verse 5,
and was talking about the love of God and the gift of salvation in verse 16.

Verses 3,5,15 and 16 are exactly the same thing.
They are related to each other but they certainly arent exactly same things

"born again" and "born of water" are different to each other
In order to see as in spiritually discern, one needs to be born again
In order to enter the kingdom, man needs to be born of water and of the Spirit (i.e. born again)

Whose fault is it then, if Pharisees have always thought that God's kingdom was a physical kingdom?
No wonder, Nicodemus was doubtful,
and Jesus wasnt impressed that Nicodemus, out of everyone, was slow on the uptake.

Jesus upped the ante "entering" whilst Nicodemus was still struggling and wrestling with "seeing"

Born again is synonymous with born of the Spirit, both mean the same thing, as in being born from above

"born again" was used by Jesus in the context of seeing
whilst "born of water and the Spirit" was used by Jesus in the context of entering

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above or be born of the Spirit
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation

It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

The thief was earlier regenerated and received salvation under a different condition that we now receive the gift of salvation under

I dont agree with me that "paradise" used in that context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing because they arent

The thief had the privilege of entering paradise, not yet, God's kingdom by itself.
Anyway, you can see how different the thief was compared to Nicodemus,
who was wrestling and struggling with the thought of who Jesus really is

Please give us the difference between
1. Heaven.
2. Paradise.
3. The kingdom.
4. Kingdom of God.
5. Kingdom of heaven.
6. "To enter his rest."

And back it up with scriptures..

Perfectbeing:
Please give us the difference between
1. Heaven.
2. Paradise.
3. Kingdom of God.
4. Kingdom of heaven.
5. "To enter his rest."

And back it up with scriptures..

I will, after you Perfectbeing.

MuttleyLaff:
I will, after you Perfectbeing.

But I asked first..

MuttleyLaff:


donnie, please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

Kindly quote Nicodemus' remark, Thank you.

MuttleyLaff:
1/ PastorDavidAwuj, what was the meat in Nicodemus' opening remark?
2/ What did Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see..." in reaction to what Nicodemus said with his opening remark?

donnie, please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

Jesus was talking about seeing or sight of the kingdom in verse 3,
was talking about entering or entry to the kingdom in verse 5,
was talking about salvation in verse 5,
and was talking about the love of God and the gift of salvation in verse 16.

Verses 3,5,15 and 16 are exactly the same thing.
They are related to each other but they certainly arent exactly same things

"born again" and "born of water" are different to each other
In order to see as in spiritually discern, one needs to be born again
In order to enter the kingdom, man needs to be born of water and of the Spirit (i.e. born again)

Whose fault is it then, if Pharisees have always thought that God's kingdom was a physical kingdom?
No wonder, Nicodemus was doubtful,
and Jesus wasnt impressed that Nicodemus, out of everyone, was slow on the uptake.

Jesus upped the ante "entering" whilst Nicodemus was still struggling and wrestling with "seeing"

Born again is synonymous with born of the Spirit, both mean the same thing, as in being born from above

"born again" was used by Jesus in the context of seeing
whilst "born of water and the Spirit" was used by Jesus in the context of entering

As I earlier typed, born again precedes and preceded salvation
In order to receive and get the gift of salvation, you'll first, have to be born again, be regenerated, be born from above or be born of the Spirit
The disciples, Nicodemus and a lot others were already born again before getting the gift of salvation

It is highly unlikely, anyone will be born again and not have or get the gift of salvation
Anyone truly born again, receives the gift of salvation

The thief was earlier regenerated and received salvation under a different condition that we now receive the gift of salvation under

I dont agree with me that "paradise" used in that context and "God's kingdom" are one and the same thing because they arent

The thief had the privilege of entering paradise, not yet, God's kingdom by itself.
Anyway, you can see how different the thief was compared to Nicodemus,
who was wrestling and struggling with the thought of who Jesus really is

In other words the thief's condition for salvation is different from ours?

Perfectbeing:


In other words the thief's condition for salvation is different from ours?

Correct.
That was a different dispensation from ours. Jesus lived, taught and operated under the old testament.

At the time, the Son of man was just about to offer himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

He ushered us into a dispensation of grace by his sacrifice and into a life of glory (of the new creation) by his resurrection from the dead.

paxonel:
Except a man is born again he can never see the kingdom.

That simply means a man must be born again first, before he can see the kingdom.
And truly, the disciples had to follow Jesus to Jerusalem first before they were able to see and experience the crucifixion.
If they had not followed him to Jerusalem to see, there was no way they would have saw it and fully believe that Jesus was the Christ and be saved, therefore born again was the only way to the kingdom of God.

I don't get you. Does that mean we who didn't see the crucifixion of Jesus do not believe that he actually died and as a result, we're saved.

It's like saying a child must go through high school first before he can be admitted into a college or university.

That means high school and university are not the same.

So, born again and the kingdom or salvation are not the same.

In those days before Jesus was crucified, born again was the only means to the kingdom. But the moment Jesus resurrected,born again at that point achieved it aim and is not needed anymore.

Having said born again was disciples following christ, there is no physical Christ to follow anymore, we are already in the kingdom of God today, which was the aim of born again.

Therefore it is far greater to be Christian than to be born again.[/quote]

donnie:
Kindly quote Nicodemus' remark, Thank you.

¹There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
²The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God:
for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
³Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God
- John 3:1-3

John 3:2 is Nicodemus' clandestine opening remark to Jesus

donnie, will you now kindly oblige.
Please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

Perfectbeing:
But I asked first..

I know you did
but I am giving you a gentlemanly first turn

MuttleyLaff:
¹There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
²The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God:
for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
³Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God
- John 3:1-3

John 3:2 is Nicodemus' clandestine opening remark to Jesus

donnie, will you now kindly oblige.
Please, can you in one sentence, describe from Nicodemus' opening remark, what was bugging him?

What bugged Nicidemus is the same thing that bugs every sinner...every person who's not born again.

The kingdom of God is God's domain. The reign of His glory, His righteousness, holiness, peace and dominion.

The bolded above is therefore correct and in line with scripture. However, seeing the kingdom of God is one thing; entering it is another.

Several Old testament prophets, like Isaiah, David etc saw they kingdom of God afar off. Some by faith even enjoyed some of the benefits of the kingdom but didn't enter until their death.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The bolded above are referring to the kingdom of God...not heaven. Heaven is a location in the kingdom of God.

Christ has brought us into this kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

So much to say, but I'll stop here.

Did you say a sentence?

I know you need these explanations.

donnie:
What bugged Nicidemus is the same thing that bugs every sinner...every person who's not born again.

The kingdom of God is God's domain. The reign of His glory, His righteousness, holiness, peace and dominion.

The bolded above is therefore correct and in line with scripture.
However, seeing the kingdom of God is one thing; entering it is another.

Several Old testament prophets, like Isaiah, David etc saw they kingdom of God afar off. Some by faith even enjoyed some of the benefits of the kingdom but didn't enter until their death.

Hebrews
11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The bolded above are referring to the kingdom of God...not heaven. Heaven is a location in the kingdom of God.

Christ has brought us into this kingdom.

Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

So much to say, but I'll stop here.

Did you say a sentence?

I know you need these explanations.

Without even reading your post, I know you've sidestepped the question and gone off on a tangent
I know you've rambled, I know you've brought in other people, plus introduced unrelated topics
and still havent conclusively answered the question

Perfectbeing:


I don't get you. Does that mean we who didn't see the crucifixion of Jesus do not believe that he actually died and as a result, we're saved

No,
The difference between us and the disciples who followed christ is that, they had to go through all that tribulation or stress of walking with Jesus from city to city through the wilderness to Jerusalem before they could be saved.
But here we are getting salvation in a platter of Gold for free by simply believing.
So we are far better than them.

Thats why i keep saying it is far better to be a christian than to be born again.

We are claiming born again today but we never understand what people who were born again in the bible went through before they eventually became christians

Wawu! I see people have really been putting the word of God in their souls.

Coming shortly... Activate the Power.

paxonel:
No,
The difference between us and the disciples who followed christ is that, they had to go through all that tribulation or stress of walking with Jesus from city to city through the wilderness to Jerusalem before they could be saved.
But here we are getting salvation in a platter of Gold for free by simply believing.
So we are far better than them.

Thats why i keep saying it is far better to be a christian than to be born again.

We are claiming born again today but we never understand what people who were born again in the bible went through before they eventually became christians

You automatically are born again if you see discern and recognise the kingdom of God

You dont claim born again, you're born again based on what you perceive and/or see

Born again and your status as a believer, go hand in hand, they exist together and are connected

People will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Regeneration, being born again, has not taken place in them

Jesus said in John 3:3, that
frankly speaking, no one can manage to discern,
no one is able to acknowledge by sight the demonstrations & power of the kingdom of God that connects Jesus with and as God
except the man is born again

Nicodemus, despite what he admitted seeing and knowing,
was wrestling, struggling and arguing in his mind, the divinity and person of Jesus

Jesus tried to give him support, confidence, hope, reassurance and allay his doubts, by saying, and this is, in a form of paraphrase:
Look, except a man be born again, he cannot acknowledge these things you've said you've seen about kingdom of God,
but Nicodemus, being none the wiser, just made fun and a mockery of the "born again" reality Jesus used and mentioned to him.

I am not saying Nicodemus is any,
but just saying, scoffers, mockers, cynics, pagans etcetera will never see anything good about the kingdom,
they dont believe in miracles as being from God
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed

Why you think there are atheists?
It is because regeneration has not taken place in them.

People, just, like as with Judas, without in the first being truly born again,
do play along, up to the point of being pastors, before dropping it, to become atheists

"Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist.
Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
- Matthew 11:11

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist:
but he that is least in the kingdom of God, is greater than he."
- Luke 7:28

About the issue of, getting salvation in a platter of Gold for free by simply believing, that you raised,
well this is because salvation is now obtained by grace and no more by law
Salvation is now a gift, freely given, out from the work of Jesus
and is not something to be earned from your own work, sweat or endeavour

I could go further or go on and on about John the Baptist etcetera
but Matthew 11:11 and Luke 7:28 above is instructive enough
Besides that will be for another time or another window of opportunity

MuttleyLaff:
People will never see anything good about the kingdom
and that's because they are not born again, are not born from above, are not spiritually rebirthed
Regeneration, being born again, has not taken place in them

But there are people who have seen good about the kingdom and want to identify with it, but they were tagged unbelievers by people who claim to be born again simply because they cannot avoid committing sin?

MuttleyLaff:
Without even reading your post, I know you've sidestepped the question and gone off on a tangent
I know you've rambled, I know you've brought in other people, plus introduced unrelated topics
and still havent conclusively answered the question

Okay, I agree but try and read it.

donnie:
Okay, I agree but try and read it.

If you insist.

paxonel:
But there are people who have seen good about the kingdom and want to identify with it, but they were tagged unbelievers by people who claim to be born again simply because they cannot avoid committing sin?

1/ When and where has this happened?
2/ Who are the people you say, claim to be born again?

MuttleyLaff:
1/ When and where has this happened?
2/ Who are the people you say, claim to be born again?

we all know that the common idea among christians is that if you are sinful then you are not born again or good enough christian

paxonel:
we all know that the common idea among christians is that if you are sinful then you are not born again or good enough christian

I'll preferably follow Jesus' explanation or description of born again than what the common idea among christians is