Heartbender:
There is no such nonsense as a wicked christian and a righteous atheist

Heartbender:
There is no such nonsense as a wicked christian and a righteous atheist

crafteck:


I think there is. A pagan can have a loving heart, a Christian might be heartless

crafteck:


I think there is. A pagan can have a loving heart, a Christian might be heartless

greatnaija01:
pls ignore him... HIS SENSE USUALLY HAS FIBROID.

Heartbender:
There is no such nonsense as a wicked christian and a righteous atheist

Heartbender:
You are a frustrated self-servicer. I don't expect your IQ to go bigger than a dickhead. Run along, little child

jesusjnr:
Can an atheist or a pagan be wicked?

Heartbender:
Now being righteous is different from being morally upright. Righteousness is a spiritual thing (a religious thing at worst). An atheist cannot be said to possess qualities "he cannot have". A christian is someone who is like. Christ. How can one then be like Christt and be wicked?

Heartbender:
Yes they can. Wickedness has no religious affiliation, generally. Except you speak of wickedness in high places which would only make sense when you juxtapose the meaning of 'christian' to a mere "confessor" of a faith

jesusjnr:
So when a wicked person pagan or atheist repents and turns from their wicked ways just as the people of Nineveh did, what do they become?

Heartbender:
It depends on what ways is "wicked" and what they repent to. Surely, to a christian, an atheist who "repents from his/her wicked ways" to believe in another god is not righteous. The person is still a "wicked" person

Heartbender:
Now being righteous is different from being morally upright. Righteousness is a spiritual thing (a religious thing at worst). An atheist cannot be said to possess qualities "he cannot have". A christian is someone who is like. Christ. How can one then be like Christt and be wicked?

jesusjnr:
Then why would God want to destroy the people of Nineveh in the first place if their righteousness or wickedness didn't mean anything in His sight?

And also if it them turning from their wicked ways didn't mean turning to righteousness, why did God accept it and not bring upon them what He had said He would because of their wickedness?

jesusjnr:
What is the profit of having a worshipper of an all-righteous God, when the person's lifestyle is nothing like God but like the all-wicked devil in his ways?

Hence of this same God that said that concerning His very own people Israel, who He said were called by His name, would be said this concerning a people that weren't His own people:

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10KJV

Now this was concerning a pagan worshipping nation called Nineveh, who God had said through His prophet that He would destroy because of the extent of wickedness in their land.

But despite not being worshippers of God or even His own people, when they repented and turned from their wicked ways, God consequently didn't do that which He had said through His prophet Jonah that He would do to them to again show what was most important to Him.

And there was also the instance of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah where God said to Abraham:

"...I will not destroy it for ten's sake." (Genesis 18:32KJV)

So God has clearly shown by His words and actions in those instances, that He would not hear the voice of the wicked, even though they are His own worshippers that are called by His name, but would hear the voice of the righteous or those who turn away from their wicked ways even though it be those of the pagans who are not his worshippers.

Which therefore means that those who do not worship God or believe in Him but are righteous in their ways have a better chance in God's sight than those His worshippers who believe in Him but are yet wicked their ways.

So for those people who claim to be followers of Christ, but yet are wicked in their ways should keep deceiving themselves that there's any other thing that connects them to Christ, for God has clearly shown overtime that the essence of faith is for humans to be righteous in their ways as God their Creator is.

Mobilia:




Forgive me...I cut a few paragraphs out...although the passage was informative.

I'm not trying to mock you nor debate you.

I'm just curious about a few things in some of your threads.

I agree that God calls His people to live righteously...and that ultimately if they choose to continue living a hypocritical lifestyle with no desire to be overcomers with a heart of true repentance...then they will be destroyed.

If you don't mind, what would constitute a lifestyle contrary to God's righteousness?

What constitutes "wickedness"?

It may help to be a little more specific about that.



Also...when God sent Jonah to preach at Nineveh (to Jonah's disgust and unwillingness at first), God did so...in order to "save" the people. They were wicked and God in His infinite compassion and mercy, was trying to save them. He wasn't trying to save them so they could continue in their sins...but so they could repent and be changed.

They repented and weren't destroyed.

They changed their wicked ways, so it's safe to deduce that they began serving the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at that point.

He makes it clear that He's calling ALL people to repentance...and a turning back to Him in order to be saved eternally.

Anyhow, it's called an "oxymoron" to call an atheist/pagan "righteous"...

The very essence of "righteousness" is God...so if they don't believe in Him..then it's impossible for them to attain that characteristic.

Also ...what barometer would non-believers use...since "morality" is based on God's "10" commandments.

No one would know "right" from "wrong" if it hadn't been laid out for us in the beginning of time....

See I get what you are trying to say here, but it's a little jumbled up and can cause confusion.

I hope you are not offended.

The message is that we, Christians, need to live lives acceptable to God because we are called to a higher standard.

Heartbender:
Yes they can.

jesusjnr:
So if an atheist/pagan can be wicked that means they can be righteous, that's why God said to Abraham that if He found up to ten righteous persons in Sodom and Gomorrah He would spare the land for their sake.

For righteousness is not an imaginary thing as most of you Christian folks have been deceived to believe, but with respect to how one treats his neighbors.

That's why a Jew/Christian can be wicked even though they yet believe in God, and worship Him, because it's with respect to how they treat their neighbors as themselves.

For that's how an atheist/pagan can be righteous and a christian wicked.

No wonder there is a lot of wickedness in the church, because of the widespread misconception that a Christian can be righteous irrespective of how they treat their neighbors.

It a lie that emanated from the heart of hell, for any Christian who does not treat his neighbors as himself is worshipping God in vain, for there can be no true worship of God without one loving his neighbor as himself.

Heartbender:
Righteousness is not how you treat your neighbours or moral goodness but being in right-standing with Jehovah

jesusjnr:
So how can you stand right with Jehovah whom you've never seen, without treating your neighbors rightly?

It seems you adamantly want to remain in your deceit.

Heartbender:
You still don't get. And now that insult is beginning to encroach i'll end my argument like this. You can be morally ok as in the case of the rich man who wanted to follow Jesus, Nicodemus and even one of the foremost disciples during selection stages and still not be righteous. Righteousness is by faith, not works. Saul, the king, lost God's favour because he wanted to please men (works, morality) not God (obedience to His word, faith

HellVictorinho:
A law-abiding/kind-hearted atheist is less dangerous than a poverty-stricken/frustrated Christian but a liberal/successful Christian is more useful to the society than an atheist whose only claim to 'intelligence' is the disbelief he/she has in God.

jesusjnr:
You don't have to be too careful not to hurt me because I can already see that you have good intentions and that's good enough for me.

As for your concern and questions and I'm going to do my best to address them.

And first of all I'm gonna do that by asking what you understand by this saying:

Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Proverbs 14:34KJV

Now do you interpret the "righteousness" implied there which exalts a nation as one which cannot be attained without believing or worshipping God?

If so that should also mean the same for the "sin" implied there, as you should also believe it cannot be attained without believing in God?

If your answer is yes for both questions, then i'm sorry to let you know that, that huge misconception or misinterpretation on your part and that of many of today's church is responsible for the gross level of wickedness or sin presently holding sway in the church, which is also in part responsible for the decline of the nation and the reproach it is currently facing.

For one thing about any saying that emanates from God, which I believe that was despite that it was through Solomon, is that interpretation is key, otherwise it would just be a case of vanity.

That's why I try as much as possible to interpret His Sayings as such from His own perspective, and not from that of men, even if they were church leaders, Apostles, even prophets etc. But it's only except their own interpretation tallies with that of God, that's only when I would accept it as true.

For if "righteousness" as implied by that saying was not attainable without believing in God, then Nations e.g. Japan, China, India, Singapore, Greece etc. would have never been as exalted as they are today, but would be reproached. But it would instead be a Nation as Nigeria that would be so exalted and not reproached as it currently is.

Because those mentioned exalted nations are not known to believe in God, but pagan worshippers and also atheists. And then you have a nation as Nigeria that almost everything that we do here, there's is the name of God somewhere, with all the churches and mosques that saturates the land, and yet is suffering much reproach.

Because the saying is not believing in God exalts a nation, or not worshipping Him brings reproach to any people, but righteousness and sin respectively. That's why despite not believing in God, righteousness has exalted those pagan nations, but despite believing in God, sin has been a reproach to Nigeria.

Now notice how that saying which came before the coming of Jesus, even at a point when only the people of Israel were known to be the people of God in all the earth, was never directed at Israel, but any nation, or any people regardless of whichever nation or people that was, that righteousness would exalt them and sin would bring a reproach to them.

And even Israel God's people were not exempted from this saying, which I call the standard of a nation, as you must have seen in my first post, for despite being the people of God, righteousness would exalt them, or sin would destroy them.

So the righteousness implied there has absolutely nothing to do with the belief or non belief in God(of course with the exception of Israel who also had to worship God being God's people by virtue of His covenant with Abraham) but with how they did unto their neighbors what they would want their neighbors to do unto them, for that was what would exalt their nation.

For if you could remember the sayings of Jesus how such a saying concerning one's neighbour was the second greatest commandment in the law, with the first being that based in the respect of God, and that all the law and the prophets hinged upon just these two commandments?(Mk 12:29-31, Mt 7:12)

So if you consider the first and greatest commandment to be in the respect of believing in God, the second greatest commandment which pertains to one's neighbor is the righteousness which is required of every nation inclusive of those that do not believe in God, for their nation to be exalted.

For that is attainable without believing in God by all nations because every nation or people consist of human beings and hence neighbors, so how they treat each other is what exalts a nation or not.

So I don't agree with you that the essence of righteousness is God, but I would say that the essence of God or having faith in Him is righteousness.

For even true worship or belief in God cannot even exist without righteousness, that's why God said concerning His people Israel:

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:8-9KJV

Remember what I said concerning misinterpretations of what God says, God said something and this people that God talked about here misinterpreted it to be something else, so despite that they were worshipping God, their worshipping of God was vanity, which is exactly what I believe is currently going on in the church.

But what do you think was missing in their worship of God, but righteousness in the respect of their neighbors, because unless that was there alongside their worship of God, their worship was vanity.

For God has shown himself to take the righteousness in the respect of the treatment of ones neighbors very seriously, even though the people may not believe in Him, remember His destruction of the Earth during the days of Noah, you can look up why He did it.

Then you know about the people of Nineveh, and also Sodom and Gomorrah, which He would have spared if there were up to ten righteous men in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And just incase it's was not speaking of ten righteous men in Israel but in Sodom and Gomorrah, even people who didn't believe in God so as not to get it mixed up, because their righteousness or wickedness had nothing to do with the worship of God, but with how they treated one another.

So righteousness was not an imaginary thing tied to just believing in God, or in Jesus Christ as many of the church have misinterpreted it to be, but how man treats his neighbor.

I mean imagine that all the worshippers of God in this nation are replaced with atheists and pagans that treat their neighbors the right way, don't you think that this nation would instantly be better off because of if?

That's how righteousness exalts a nation for it's not rocket science or something imaginary. For someone who loves his neighbor as himself would not kill them, lie against them, commit adultery with his neighbor's wife, steal money that belongs to his neighbor, etc. even the things that brings reproach to a nation.

And you should notice how i didn't say that a righteous atheist or pagan is better than a righteous christian, but a wicked christian, because while a wicked christian has nothing but vanity, a righteous Christian has something extra even that which the righteous atheists and pagans don't have which is the God factor, therefore in that respect they are better than them.

For despite that I don't believe that God is the essence of righteousness, I believe He is the perfection of righteousness.

So an atheist/pagan's righteousness could only be enhanced and made perfect in God.

And that's why i'm trying to drawing them to Him so that it would be the perfect marriage, of righteousness + belief in God.

Sorry for the lenghty post but I didn't want to leave anything out, even though I still managed to do that.