9inches:
Life itself is a school. You go through different classes until you die. There's no graduation; you don't stop learning until you die.

@bolded, Your preconceived notion about catholics isn't letting you focus on the argument I'm making. Just to address your straw man, as a Catholic I believe I can go to hellfire and an atheist or a muslim can enter heaven. So, I don't know how your "tax collectors' straw man could be attributed to my argument.

I have read the whole bible multiple times and I know there is no way anyone could understand everything in it if "bible alone" is to be the rule of faith. Only Catholics claim the bible is NOT the only rule of faith which means we have other sources to put the seemingly confusing parts of the bible into context for better understanding.

I would like to see where the JW claims their version of christian interpretation is objective.

You must have just heard of this strawman. You do mention him often. Do you have straw where you are?

Is your current argument not that one should be a catholic (your initial one being one should be a Christian), because they are the only church of Christ who can objectively teach the Bible, which is necessary because people need someone to teach them the bible because any individual understanding is subjective and wrong? And does a wrong understanding of the bible and Christ not lead one to hell?

Tatime, could you please let 9 know if Jehova Witnessing is not the only church of Christ with the proper understanding of the bible, and everyone else is wrong?

As to your "Life itself is a school. ...... you don't stop learning until you die", yes, I agree, and I don't see the point wasting that life learning about your one god in your one class in your one school. One must not live by bread alone, see, but by every word, and you would find, if you search, that there are words outside the Catholic Church and outside Christianity even, all godly too.

I'm beginning to think you evoke your strawman to change the topic when you are down a closed alley!

budaatum:
Is your current argument not that one should be a catholic (your initial one being one should be a Christian), because they are the only church of Christ who can objectively teach the Bible, which is necessary because people need someone to teach them the bible because any individual understanding is could be subjective and wrong?

Exactly! Well captured, well done.

And does a wrong understanding of the bible and Christ not lead one to hell?

Not really. God judges the heart (intent). Again, even a non believer can possibly get to heaven.

As to your "Life itself is a school. ...... you don't stop learning until you die", yes, I agree, and I don't see the point wasting that life learning about your one god in your one class in your one school. One must not live by bread alone, see, but by every word, and you would find, if you search, that there are words outside the Catholic Church and outside Christianity even, all godly too.

@bolded, Absolutely. No iota of doubt about that; every belief [system] has some good in it. It would be really hard to think of a belief system that does not have some good in it; at least I can't think of one.

Now get straight: the Catholic church claims that it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself. Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and to guide it through the presence of the Holy Spirit. The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ’s continuing presence in his Church - "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20). The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy and sacraments). We believe that because of Christ’s continued presence and guarantee, his Church cannot lead people astray with its official teachings (which are distinct from the individual failings and opinions of its members, priests, bishops, and Popes).

9inches:


Now get straight: the Catholic church claims that it teaches, governs, and sanctifies with the authority of Christ himself. Catholics believe that this gift of Church authority is one of the jewels that Christ has given to us as an aid to our salvation. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and to guide it through the presence of the Holy Spirit. The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ’s continuing presence in his Church - "Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Mt 28:20). The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation (Mt 16:18).

The Catholic Church may claim so, but you yourself admit and agree with me that "there are words outside the Catholic Church and outside Christianity even, all godly too" , and "a non believer can possibly get to heaven". And besides, Jesus never said anything whatsoever about any one particular church!

One thing I dislike about Christians is that you never get a full record of the symptoms before prescribing you own version of Christ. You assume everyone is poor but proclaim the good news to the lame, the blind, those who have leprosy, the deaf and the dead, when what they need is to receive sight, walk, be cleansed, hear, and be raised from the dead. Do you not understand what it means to give stones instead of bread? Did Christ not preach 'woe' to those who do this? One would think you think you should not cast your pearls in front of swine because your pearls are valuable, when the truth is that you should mind not to choke the poor swine with your pearls.

I am taking offence at you, 9, for calling me straw, when the truth is I "Exactly! Well captured, well done", your argument! If you could be thinking I am so straw when I'm not, then maybe it is not me who is straw here!

budaatum:

One thing I dislike about Christians is that you never get a full record of the symptoms before prescribing you own version of Christ. You assume everyone is poor but proclaim the good news to the lame, the blind, those who have leprosy, the deaf and the dead, when what they need is to receive sight, walk, be cleansed, hear, and be raised from the dead. Do you not understand what it means to give stones instead of bread? Did Christ not preach 'woe' to those who do this? One would think you think you should not cast your pearls in front of swine because your pearls are valuable, when the truth is that you should mind not to choke the poor swine with your pearls.

I wish I knew the specific person (s) you are talking about. But what does that have to do with the Church's teachings? Human beings are utterly flawed; no question about that. The sexual abuse scandal that has rocked the Church is a more recent testament to that. Like I said earlier, you have to distinguish between the Church's teachings from human failings. The Church will never fail; that's a guarantee by the Head of the Church himself (Christ).

Look, you can point fingers and call out Christians for their hypocrisy (Lord knows we deserve that a lot), but be wary, else you become guilty of the exact sin you are calling out. Don't bank your soul on individuals. I would be very foolishh of me to stop going to church just because my pastor was involved in one mess or the other. You get what I mean?

I am taking offence at you, 9, for calling me straw, when the truth is I "Exactly! Well captured, well done",  your argument! If you could be thinking I am so straw when I'm not, then maybe it is not me who is straw here!

I point out your "straws" as well your "Exactly! Well captured[s]."

budaatum:

The Catholic Church may claim so, but you yourself admit and agree with me that "there are words outside the Catholic Church and outside Christianity even, all godly too" , and "a non believer can possibly get to heaven". And besides, Jesus never said anything whatsoever about any one particular church!

I've had this sort of conversation before: https://www.nairaland.com/9inches/posts/10#69154043

9inches:
I understand where you are coming from, but the Holy Spirit does not sow confusion. And no, Christ did not give permission to forge one's own subjective interpretation. That's the reason he made his apostles (the early Church) the custodian of his Word and additionally promised them his Holy Spirit to guide them in the light of truth. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Truth is not guaranteed outside the Church (1 Tim 3:15). That's all I'm saying.

9inches:

It was the sin of disobedience and PRIDE that separated Martin Luther from the Body of Christ, the Church.

Exactly! And Martin Luther is the reason there are now over 33,000 different denominations interpreting the bible differently whilst claiming the Holy Spirit (which we all agree does not sow confusion). The Body of Christ (the Church) is undivided. The Body of Christ is one, not 2, not 5, not 20 and definitely not 33,000.

Exactly! That's why Catholics don't leave the "average Joe Public" to interpret what "average Joe Public" thinks or feels the interpretation should mean.... The Church is authoritative custodian of the Word of God (including the bible), so you can be rest assured it remains uncorrupted until the end of time. You can't get such guarantee outside the Church.

9inches:
Actually, you are not allowed to forge your own subjective interpretation of Christianity (or the bible) in the Catholic church. The bible is not confusing to the Church; the Church compiled the bible and was the ONLY body instituted by Christ through which unadulterated Christianity can be taught and learned.

So, yes! We already have our milk bottled for hundreds of centuries; and it comes with original seal of authenticity. Why selfishly replicate and risk corruption?

9inches:
I agree with you. I think the fundamentalists are to blame for this perception of Christianity and the bible as bigoted.

9inches:
We both agree on the bible is a fail-safe guarantee, except you haven't realized the bible came from "the Church". By virtue of me being part of "the Church", I have the privilege of a more holistic knowledge of the Word of God than the bible itself alone can offer you. This implies you are more at risk of misinterpreting the Word of God because you don't have any backup information.

I'm assuming you know that Timothy (ordained bishop of Ephesus by Paul) and Titus (ordained bishop of Crete by Paul) were two of Apostle Paul's companions and disciples (assistants). But have you heard about Irenaeus (bishop of Lyons) who was a student of Polycarp? And Polycarp (ordained bishop of Smyrna by Apostle John)? Have you heard anything they taught or wrote? Do you know any of the early Christians apart from the apostles, and what they believed, taught or wrote? Have you studied the church (Christian) history from the time of Christ as recorded in the bible to present day? Or did you just pick the bible without giving a good thought where it came from and how it came to you? These are the questions you should answer to yourself IF YOU ARE A TRUTH SEEKER. You are an adult, don't be afraid to challenge your beliefs with these vital questions. You have nothing to lose by researching them, but everything to gain in terms of knowledge. If you seek the Truth, you'll find it, right?

I live in the Church because I'm a part of it. The bible lives with me.

1. The Church is The Body of Christ - Rom 12:5; Col 1:24
2. Christ is the head of The Body (The Church) - Col 1:18
3. I'm an individual part of The Body (The Church) - 1 Cor 12:27; Rom 12:5
4. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth!!! - 1 Tim 3:15

Reflection: Are you a part of the Church according to 1 Corinthians 12:27 or are you independent (outside) of the Church like Martin Luther?

It was disagreement with the Church's selling of indulgences that Martin Luther opposed, 9, and some will claim rightly too since the Church had no right selling tickets to heaven! Jesus too did exactly the same thing when he opposed the church of his day claiming they gave stones instead of bread, and as Luther caused a breakaway from Catholicism and the creation of Protestantism so too did Jesus cause the breakaway from Judaism and the creation of Christianity. I'm sure they both burn in hell for their disobedience to the church of their respective days.

All the same, you have convinced me to become Catholic, after all it's not like there's anywhere in the Bible they preach where it says fruits matter, and, in as much as I commit one sin, so why would the fact that the Church, its leaders at that, produce some rotten fruits, matter? Just remind me of the chapter and verse so that when anyone asks me about the rotten fruits of my newly joined sect I can tell them I am a member of the the "body of Christ" the Catholic Church that is the "custodian of his Word", the "pillar and foundation of Truth" and the "ONLY body instituted by Christ through which unadulterated Christianity" is taught, and I'm going to heaven because rotten fruits do not matter and they are going to hell, please.

And thanks for converting me to that "unadulterated Christianity", 9. Your time and effort has been appreciated.

budaatum:
It was disagreement with the Church's selling of indulgences that Martin Luther opposed, 9, and some will claim rightly too since the Church had no right selling tickets to heaven! Jesus too did exactly the same thing when he opposed the church of his day claiming they gave stones instead of bread

If it was just the disagreement with the selling of indulgences, Luther would not have been excommunicated. How much did his disagreement with selling of indulgences relate to his 95 thesis and subsequent alteration of the bible?

Luther caused a breakaway from Catholicism and the creation of Protestantism so too did Jesus cause the breakaway from Judaism and the creation of Christianity. I'm sure they both burn in hell for their disobedience to the church of their respective days.

I call apple and oranges on your comparison!
Christianity essentially is Judaism fully expressed. Most Catholics who converted from Judaism would hardly tell say they converted to a new religion that had replaced Judaism. Rather, it was Judaism, but with the Messiah having come. For these type of converts, many facets of New Covenant worship evokes elements of the Old: features suth as the tabernacle, the ambo, and the altar made sense to them in a way that they may not for those who convert to Catholicism from non-Christian or Protestant Christian backgrounds. And the similarities didn’t end with liturgy. They didn’t see Catholicism’s doctrines as something foreign either. Rather, they saw the continuity, the inner logic, of Jesus’ teachings vis-a-vis the Old Testament.
Considering that Jesus was a faithful Jew, this should really not be surprising.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the Law.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

All the same, you have convinced me to become Catholic, after all it's not like there's anywhere in the Bible they preach where it says fruits matter, and, in as much as I commit one sin, so why would the fact that the Church, its leaders at that, produce some rotten fruits, matter? Just remind me of the chapter and verse so that when anyone asks me about the rotten fruits of my newly joined sect I can tell them I am a member of the the "body of Christ" the Catholic Church that is the "custodian of his Word", the "pillar and foundation of Truth" and the "ONLY body instituted by Christ through which unadulterated Christianity" is taught, and I'm going to heaven because rotten fruits do not matter and they are going to hell, please.

And thanks for converting me to that "unadulterated Christianity", 9. Your time and effort has been appreciated.

I call straw man on the bolded. You simply aren't paying attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8COHAt0JWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YyOGz3XQ-w

The Judaists did not mind Jesus and his theses or see them as "something foreign" either, and rather "saw the continuity" and converted en masse? If they had seen them as "something foreign" without "continuity" they might have excommunicated him, or crucified him, right? Let's just thank God they didn't and converted en masse.

The truth is, hardly anyone converted from Judaism to Christianity! Christianity itself didn't even exist until hundreds of years after Christ died, and even today, a couple of thousands of years later, the Jews aren't having any of it.

But the truth perhaps shouldn't matter to we Catholics, I guess. We have our "History according to the Church", and it's the only truth!

.

LordReed:


Well we kind of. If the universe has been expanding for billions of years it stands to reason that it was a lot smaller than it is now and the math shows it would have had to be a singularity at which point the laws of physics as we know them now couldn't be reasonably sustained. But of course this is a mystery as we can't yet go back in time to confirm it and may never be able to.

God done it in six "billion years" and rested on the seventh, my Lord?

Need I say "Praise the Lord God Almighty" before announcing you got God, lol?

budaatum:

God done it in six "billion years" and rested on the seventh, my Lord?

Need I say "Praise the Lord God Almighty" before announcing you got God, lol?

I think it may have rested on the 14th billion.