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Your Beliefs - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 7:16pm On Jan 07
9inches:
So which/what was the first "big [some]thing" that started the rest? Did Buddha say what it was and what it was made of? In short, when was the beginning of "something"?
I cited buda, as in budaatum, and not Buddha! Do not mistake me for what I am not.

9inches:
Philosophically and theologically, if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be. But if something exists outside of time, like God, then it does not need an explanation for its beginning, because it does not have one.
Yes, I agree that "if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be". So God too must have a cause!

"Outside of time"? When was that exactly?

9inches:
So, the question of who created God would be nonsensical, because it amounts to asking “who created an uncreated being?”
But you yourself said, "if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be" !

A thing that exists, came into existence because it was created. Now your making me think God was not created so God does not exist! Which is it please?
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 7:18pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:


It is not true that there was a time when nothing existed.
Was there? How do you know? Is it true that there was a time when nothing existed?
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 7:21pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Was there? How do you know? Is it true that there was a time when nothing existed?
Read my post in the 'Timing of Existence'.
It(my post) ends with a formula this time around.

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Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 7:28pm On Jan 07
9inches:


Steve Hawking says "there was nothing around before the big bang."

You need to try to understand this in the proper context. Hawkins was not that stupid!

"Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one might as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang," he wrote.

This does not explicitly mean there was nothing. What it means is there is no evidence of anything so there is no point wasting the time and energy thinking excessively about it.

My point is he is not saying there is “nothing” in a certain sense of there being nothing at all but rather there being nothing in the way of observable space-time so nothing in the sense of the modern physical understanding of the world.

"Nothing was around before the big, big bang," Hawking told deGrasse Tyson.

This was said in response to the question “what space was like before the universe began.” and obviously if there is no space-time there is no space so nothing is the response.

I do not think it should be read as certain. It’s a conversation between very smart people about what they think. Not what is categorically true.

Quora
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 7:29pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

Read my post in the 'Timing of Existence'.
It(my post) ends with a formula this time around.
Post a link to it!
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 7:32pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Post a link to it!
I don't need a link to understand that time creates limits.
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 7:39pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

I don't need a link to understand that time creates limits.
I need a link to what you told me to go and read! It makes what you direct to easier to find.

Anyway, I've read it. I think you are formulating your ideas which is commendable. But you need to work on presenting it some more for clarity, both for yourself and others.

You wrote:

"If we don't know what was happening before the Big Bang that led to the formation of systems in our Universe, we don't have to assume that nothing was happening."

Which I wholly agree with, and add, 'and neither should we assume a god done it when the truth is, we don't know!'
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 7:49pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

I need a link to what you told me to go and read! It makes what you direct to easier to find.

Anyway, I've read it. I think you are formulating your ideas which is commendable. But you need to work on presenting it some more for clarity, both for yourself and others.

You wrote:

"If we don't know what was happening before the Big Bang that led to the formation of systems in our Universe, we don't have to assume that nothing was happening."

Which I wholly agree with, and add, 'and neither should we assume a god done it when the truth is, we don't know!'
No one did it,it was bound to happen.
The formula shows that the Existential Constant as a phenomenon effects Actuality timelessly.
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 8:57pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

No one did it,it was bound to happen..
Agree that no one or thing "did it". And guess, "bound to happen", after the fact. Though certain conditions must have prevailed for what was bound to happen to happen, and if the conditions had been any different, the universe might not have ended up as it has.

HellVictorinho:
The formula shows that the Existential Constant as a phenomenon effects Actuality timelessly.
Sounds the same as when someone says "God done it. The Bible says so". Lol.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 9:10pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Agree that no one or thing "did it". And guess, "bound to happen", after the fact. Though certain conditions must have prevailed for what was bound to happen to happen, and if the conditions had been any different, the universe might not have ended up as it has.


Sounds the same as when someone says "God done it. The Bible says so". Lol.
The Constant is a quantity.
Remember Physics?
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 9:21pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Agree that no one or thing "did it". And guess, "bound to happen", after the fact. Though certain conditions must have prevailed for what was bound to happen to happen, and if the conditions had been any different, the universe might not have ended up as it has.


Sounds the same as when someone says "God done it. The Bible says so". Lol.
Why the if's?
And there was no condition put in place by anyone.
Laws are actually observations-turn-derivations-turn-principles.
There can't be laws when the things that are meant to follow them don't exist.
Laws are determined in science, they are not designed.
And that is why we keep testing.
So,we can get the needed picture.
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 9:39pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

Why the if's?
And there was no condition put in place by anyone.
Laws are actually observations-turn-derivations-turn-principles.
There can't be laws when the things that are meant to follow them don't exist.
Laws are determined in science, they are not designed.
And that is why we keep testing.
So,we can get the needed picture.
The law of gravitation was not "determined". It was discovered.

1 Like

Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 9:54pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

The law of gravitation was not "determined". It was discovered.
It was discovered here.
It doesn't work in space.
And it was discovered here by the determination of certain concepts through observation.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 10:10pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Agree that no one or thing "did it". And guess, "bound to happen", after the fact. Though certain conditions must have prevailed for what was bound to happen to happen, and if the conditions had been any different, the universe might not have ended up as it has.


Sounds the same as when someone says "God done it. The Bible says so". Lol.
The Constant is a quantity.
Remember Physics?
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 11:13pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

It was discovered here.
It doesn't work in space.
And it was discovered here by the determination of certain concepts through observation.
Well, it existed for us to discover it where it was discovered. We did not invent it in anyway whatsoever.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 11:15pm On Jan 07
budaatum:

Well, it existed for us to discover it where it was discovered. We did not invent it in anyway whatsoever.
We discovered it because it applied to us.
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 11:32pm On Jan 07
HellVictorinho:

We discovered it because it applied to us.
Does the reason really matter? I wonder why it took so long to discover it since it was there way long before we did.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 4:23am On Jan 08
budaatum:

Does the reason really matter? I wonder why it took so long to discover it since it was there way long before we did.
The reason matters.
And it took so long because no one had observed the effects of the gravitational pull of the earth on the objects moving on it before then.
Re: Your Beliefs by 9inches(m): 5:35am On Jan 08
budaatum:
I cited buda, as in budaatum, and not Buddha! Do not mistake me for what I am not.
Oh, pardon moi! grin

Yes, I agree that "if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be". So God too must have a cause!

"Outside of time"? When was that exactly?
God has no beginning, and so, have no end. 'Beginning' and 'end' = points in time.

"Outside of time"? Let's just say it hasn't been revealed yet; same goes for 'nothingness' before the universe. Essentially, the big question is "What is God like"?

But you yourself said, "if something came into existence at a certain point in time, that is, if it had a beginning, then there needs to be a cause, an explanation, for why it came to be" !

A thing that exists, came into existence because it was created. Now your making me think God was not created so God does not exist! Which is it please?
Common sense, bro. If you only keep going back to creation or evolution, it's a bottomless hole. Even scientists/philosophers acknowledge something existed before every other thing. The mistake is that they again say that the 'something' is 'nothing', yet they try to project "a lot of stuff" into the 'nothing' (talk about Lawrence Krauss). The world didn't come out of nothing, it came out of something, and the 'origin' of the world wasn't created/evolved else it will exist in the world and become part of it, which would make the answers that we seek more likable to be obtained through science or otherwise here this world. If you create a camera, you are not constrained by it but you can go inside of it and out at will. Same goes if you build a house, you are not constrained by it but you can move in and out at will.

The transistor in a TV set does not know when or how explicitly it was made, but it could understand it's purpose and meaning by observing how everything including other transistors, resistors, capacitors, transformers, diodes, switches, etc within its circuit (the world that it sees and lives in) behaves. The transistor could then, with information available to it, infer but with certainty that it exists or was made for a purpose, and that its existence is meaninful. At this point of this transistor's life, it has successfully made a step into the mind of the its original maker that lives, of course, outside of the circuit.
The possibility of this transistor to actually have any concrete PROOF of anything outside its circuit rests on its maker and could only happen either when the maker opens up the TV set or the transistor is detached physically from the circuit (dead). That's why in Christianity we use the word "departed" for the dead, for we believe, they have gone on to the great beyond to meet the Creator and get to see the proof that we who are still confined within this worldly realities are yet to see.
Re: Your Beliefs by 9inches(m): 5:42am On Jan 08
budaatum:


You need to try to understand this in the proper context. Hawkins was not that stupid!

"Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one might as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang," he wrote.

This does not explicitly mean there was nothing. What it means is there is no evidence of anything so there is no point wasting the time and energy thinking excessively about it.

My point is he is not saying there is “nothing” in a certain sense of there being nothing at all but rather there being nothing in the way of observable space-time so nothing in the sense of the modern physical understanding of the world.

"Nothing was around before the big, big bang," Hawking told deGrasse Tyson.

This was said in response to the question “what space was like before the universe began.” and obviously if there is no space-time there is no space so nothing is the response.

I do not think it should be read as certain. It’s a conversation between very smart people about what they think. Not what is categorically true.

Quora
I understand that. That's the same theory Krauss was trying to establish in the video LordReed posted on this or another thread yesterday. But the whole point here is, if it's not nothing 'nothing', then it's actually 'something'. And nobody would think they sound silly [re]defining 'nothing'. according to the world we know (and they are scientists, obviously), the big band happened out of forces colliding or something of that kind... Do you think I'm right?
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 6:01am On Jan 08
9inches:

Oh, pardon moi! grin

God has no beginning, and so, have no end. 'Beginning' and 'end' = points in time.

"Outside of time"? Let's just say it hasn't been revealed yet; same goes for 'nothingness' before the universe. Essentially, the big question is "What is God like"?

Common sense, bro. If you only keep going back to creation or evolution, it's a bottomless hole. Even scientists/philosophers acknowledge something existed before every other thing. The mistake is that they again say that the 'something' is 'nothing', yet they try to project "a lot of stuff" into the 'nothing' (talk about Lawrence Krauss). The world didn't come out of nothing, it came out of something, and the 'origin' of the world wasn't created/evolved else it will exist in the world and become part of it, which would make the answers that we seek more likable to be obtained through science or otherwise here this world. If you create a camera, you are not constrained by it but you can go inside of it and out at will. Same goes if you build a house, you are not constrained by it but you can move in and out at will.

The transistors in an electronics set does not know when or how explicitly it was made, but it could understand it's purpose and meaning by observing how everything within its circuit world behaves. The circuit could then infer but with certainty that it was made for a purpose, and that purpose is also a step into the mind of the its original maker.
You are still proud of your 'Crazy God'
Re: Your Beliefs by 9inches(m): 6:45am On Jan 08
HellVictorinho:

You are still proud of your 'Crazy God'
Yea man, you just can't help it. You too would be more than proud of him if get to know him. You could stop your childish tantrum when you do.
Re: Your Beliefs by raphieMontella: 6:51am On Jan 08
HellVictorinho:

You are still proud of your 'Crazy God'
his usage of the house builder comparison to God is actually illogical..

advocating an above 3d Transcendent being and in the same vein stating the above 3d being can interact with the 3d creation without having some 3d features...which is impossible...
because if it didn't possess some 3d capabilities.. it is impossible to act on a 3d "plane" and 2...it's acts on its 3d Creation cannot be felt by the 3d creation/ cannot be "visible" in the 3d dimension

think about it...

2d objects etc have 1d features in addition to whatever...
think about it
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 7:13am On Jan 08
9inches:
Yea man, you just can't help it. You too would be more than proud of him if get to know him. You could stop your childish tantrum when you do.
You don't know him/her/it.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 7:14am On Jan 08
raphieMontella:

his usage of the house builder comparison to God is actually illogical..

advocating an above 3d Transcendent being and in the same vein stating the above 3d being can interact with the 3d creation without having some 3d features...which is impossible...
because if it didn't possess some 3d capabilities.. it is impossible to act on a 3d "plane" and 2...it's acts on its 3d Creation cannot be felt by the 3d creation/ cannot be "visible" in the 3d dimension

think about it...

2d objects etc have 1d features in addition to whatever...
think about it
Don't mind him.
Re: Your Beliefs by 9inches(m): 8:38am On Jan 08
HellVictorinho:

You don't know him/her/it.
Yeah, because you know me. You sound ridiculous, dude. You're making a fool out of your 'humble' self.
Re: Your Beliefs by LordReed(m): 9:52am On Jan 08
HellVictorinho:

It was discovered here.
It doesn't work in space.
And it was discovered here by the determination of certain concepts through observation.

Who says there are no gravity effects in space?
Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 9:54am On Jan 08
9inches:
I understand that. That's the same theory Krauss was trying to establish in the video LordReed posted on this or another thread yesterday. But the whole point here is, if it's not nothing 'nothing', then it's actually 'something'. And nobody would think they sound silly [re]defining 'nothing'. according to the world we know (and they are scientists, obviously), the big bang happened out of forces colliding or something of that kind... Do you think I'm right?
Yes, I think you are right. Something had to exist to go bang. And it must have been big for the bang to be big.
Re: Your Beliefs by LordReed(m): 10:00am On Jan 08
budaatum:

Yes, I think you are right. Something had to exist to go bang. And it must have been big for the bang to be big.

That's another thing we don't know, that it was a bang. Most scientists refer to it as an inflation rather than an explosion.

1 Like

Re: Your Beliefs by budaatum: 10:02am On Jan 08
HellVictorinho:

The reason matters.
And it took so long because no one had observed the effects of the gravitational pull of the earth on the objects moving on it before then.
They did observe "the effects of the gravitational pull of the earth on the objects moving on it" since it continously acted on things on earth. They just hadn't recognised it because they didn't know it for what it was.

Same way they thought the earth was flat despite it always not being flat. It was their ability to perceive that had not yet developed enough at the time.

1 Like

Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 10:40am On Jan 08
LordReed:


Who says there are no gravity effects in space?
You don't get it.
What I mean is that 'there is no up and down in space'.
Re: Your Beliefs by HellVictorinho(m): 10:41am On Jan 08
9inches:
Yeah, because you know me. You sound ridiculous, dude. You're making a fool out of your 'humble' self.
You sound funny.

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