MuttleyLaff:
Your soul is you.
Your soul is also the most important part of you worthy enough to be after by the devil and worthy enough for God to die for in place of you.

The spirit comes and goes back to God after death, it is your conduit that connects and/or tunes in with the Spirit which God is. The life of the soul is in the spirit, just as the life of body is in the blood. This simples should be enough for now

Alright
Can you explain the mechanism through which the soul would feel pain,does a soul even "feel" at the first place,if it does how

DeOTR:

No.

OK I like your view,so no afterlife ?

Hermes019:
Alright
Can you explain the mechanism through which the soul would feel pain,does a soul even "feel" at the first place,if it does how

My friend, I like you, I really do. I like the way you fire on two cylinders. Here's is something you can relate to that will explain this a bit for you.

Do you ever recoil back, when watching something gruesome happening in real life or maybe just on a TV screen slash internet. That's your spirit not wanting to be grieved. Sometimes, you protect the gateway to your spirit man because you might not necessarily want to relive or remember the moment, so you block any avenue contact to the thing happening or going on

Hermes019:

OK I like your view,so no afterlife ?

Of course there's after life for the righteous, not immediately after death, but at the second coming of Jesus.
The wicked will not burn forever, but destroyed forever. That's what the "perish" in John 3:16 means.

DeOTR:

Of course there's after life for the righteous, not immediately after death, but at the second coming of Jesus.
The wicked will not burn forever, but destroyed forever. That's what the "perish" in John 3:16 means.

There is just one single group that teaches this. Jehovah's Witnesses!
I searched for over twenty years and i can boldly say the one and only organization teaching this is Jehovah's Witnesses.

MuttleyLaff:
My friend, I like you, I really do. I like the way you fire on two cylinders. Here's is something you can relate to that will explain this a bit for you.

Do you ever recoil back, when watching something gruesome happening in real life or maybe just on a TV screen slash internet. That's your spirit not wanting to be grieved. Sometimes, you protect the gateway to your spirit man because you might not necessarily want to relive or remember the moment, so you block any avenue contact to the thing happening or going on

Oh lawd,how many times am I going to explain these things
Emotions are the handwork of the nervous system
The brain is the centre of the whole stuff,if the spirit or soul doesn't have the nervous system how does it "feel" anything,what is the mechanism ?

DeOTR:

Of course there's after life for the righteous, not immediately after death, but at the second coming of Jesus.
The wicked will not burn forever, but destroyed forever. That's what the "perish" in John 3:16 means.

OK,what about the passage Jesus said it is better to enter life handicapped than to enter hell with both hands,were the fire never quenches and the worms never ceases
What does that mean ?

TATIME:
There is just one single group that teaches this. Jehovah's Witnesses!
I searched for over twenty years and i can boldly say the one and only organization teaching this is Jehovah's Witnesses.

I'm not JW, but that's the truth.

Hermes019:

OK,what about the passage Jesus said it is better to enter life handicapped than to enter hell with both hands,were the fire never quenches and the worms never ceases
What does that mean ?

If the worms that infest a dead body are not killed, the rotting flesh will be consumed until none remains. Similarly, any fire which is not quenched will last only as long as there is fuel to keep it burning and then go out.
In essence, when a person does not repent of sin, the effect is permanent—eternal oblivion!
Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 verbatim and it is interesting to know that the verse he was quoting is talking about worms feeding on dead bodies, so when he said their worms shall not die (not shall never die), he's talking about worms feasting on the damned uninterrupted. And believe me, this can only go on until the dead bodies are fully consumed.
The fire that never quenches? In Jeremiah 17:27, God had threatened Jerusalem, that if they refused to hallow the Sabbath, God’s holy day, God’s judgments would be poured upon it. that is the same wording as used to describe hell in Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:42-48.
The place where Jesus used as an example of hell (Gehenna) is not a place torment, but a place where everything thrown into it is meant to be destroyed. Nobody attempted to quench the fire there. The fire burns undisturbed, and just as the original is no more burning till date, the lake of fire will not burn forever, but it will burn long enough to destroy the sinners and the effect of it shall be eternal (everlasting punishment)

DeOTR:

I'm not JW, but that's the truth.

Well i can beat my chest a thousand times that there is no other source of TRUE faith except Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course you did not just wake up one day and started receiving a totally different thought from all the existing religious groups around you if not somebody from somewhere hint you! Please don't come here to play another Daddy Freeze because i am sure the guy has read a lot of publications of the Watchtower!

TATIME:
Well i can beat my chest a thousand times that there is no other source of TRUE faith except Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course you did not just wake up one day and started receiving a totally different thought from all the existing religious groups around you if not somebody from somewhere hint you! Please don't come here to play another Daddy Freeze because i am sure the guy has read a lot of publications of the Watchtower!

I'm not a Daddy Freeze, and of course, I agree with almost all JW teachings (about hell, trinity, etc). But then, this is the Bible truth. It's written all over it. How the the most well known verse in the Bible talk about sinners perishing and we teaching eternal torment? Is it that we don't understand common English or what?
I must confess I enjoy the company of JWs and watchtower publications, but I disagree with them on issues bordering on blood transfusion.
I'd like to know what JW teaches on Saturday Sabbath.

DeOTR:

If the worms that infest a dead body are not killed, the rotting flesh will be consumed until none remains. Similarly, any fire which is not quenched will last only as long as there is fuel to keep it burning and then go out.
In essence, when a person does not repent of sin, the effect is permanent—eternal oblivion!
Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 verbatim and it is interesting to know that the verse he was quoting is talking about worms feeding on dead bodies, so when he said their worms shall not die (not shall never die), he's talking about worms feasting on the damned uninterrupted. And believe me, this can only go on until the dead bodies are fully consumed.
The fire that never quenches? In Jeremiah 17:27, God had threatened Jerusalem, that if they refused to hallow the Sabbath, God’s holy day, God’s judgments would be poured upon it. that is the same wording as used to describe hell in Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:42-48.
The place where Jesus used as an example of hell (Gehenna) is not a place torment, but a place where everything thrown into it is meant to be destroyed. Nobody attempted to quench the fire there. The fire burns undisturbed, and just as the original is no more burning till date, the lake of fire will not burn forever, but it will burn long enough to destroy the sinners and the effect of it shall be eternal (everlasting punishment)

Wow,I like your view I must say but again thus is ur own interpretation, I'm sure another Christian would Give a different interpretation of that passage and I don't really think yours is most accurate.
What sayeth thou about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the bible,the rich man was in hell fire burning,if a sinner's soul simply perishes as you said,doesn't that pass a message different from that parable ?

DeOTR:

I'm not a Daddy Freeze, and of course, I agree with almost all JW teachings (about hell, trinity, etc). But then, this is the Bible truth. It's written all over it. How the the most well known verse in the Bible talk about sinners perishing and we teaching eternal torment? Is it that we don't understand common English or what?
I must confess I enjoy the company of JWs and watchtower publications, but I disagree with them on issues bordering on blood transfusion.
I'd like to know what JW teaches on Saturday Sabbath.

Well as a former Muslim i don't have a problem with strong convictions even if it means loosing my PRESENT life for what i believe! Daniel 3:16-18,Matthew 16:25
So the issue of blood transfusion is as dead as anything breathless before me.
Saturday Sabbath is another issue that has no hold on me since i don't worship in line with the Mosaic laws,i'm now a Christian and Christ is my law. Romans 10:1-4
Therefore i can only be concerned with Sabbath if Jesus is held back from doing what supposed to be done on the Sabbath{Saturday}. Luke 6:9
Those laws were given to the ancient Israelites to prepare their minds for things to come. Hebrew 10:1
For instance at Exodus 23:12 God gave us the reason for that law "so that you can set aside a day for your slaves and animals of burden". Of course some people won't set any day for worship talkless a day for their slaves to rest if God did not give such law! Today even the human laws has decreed that one day{Sunday} should be for rest. Romans 2:14
We're not under those laws because we became worshipers of Jehovah{the God of Israel} not through the law covenant but by faith in Christ Jesus who is the mediator of ANOTHER covenant! Jeremiah 31:31-34
Continue studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses,don't forget that you can't QUICKLY and fully grasp every principle in God's word{John 16:12} that's where faith,endurance and hope in all things comes in{1 Corinthians 13:6,7} since you've IDENTIFIED the one and only organization teaching the TRUTH as it's clearly stated in God's word!
You will only continue to stumble on falsehood upon falsehood if you desert JWs simply because of few things that's not clear to you. My advice to you is to behave like the first century 12 followers of Jesus who stick to Him as they're sure that it's ONLY Him that's teaching the TRUTH,though majority deserted Him because He said some things that doesn't go well with them! John 6:64-69
So my friend i'm not supposed to be the one telling you all these considering my background as a Muslim but i've learnt to ENDURE whatever comes my way for the sake of TRUTH. God bless you!

Hermes019:
I have heard this a couple of times,you are asked to imagine how it feels when a fire burns your skin,and then you are told that it would feel the same way or even worse to be cast into the lake of fire(hell). I have a problem with this illustration. When we are burned by fire or any hot object we feel hurt because we have a nervous system,if we didn't have a nervous system or if our nervous systems were not functioning we can't feel pain,even if your whole body is completely burnt u wouldn't feel any pain.Of course this is something we can relate to when you are given an anaesthetic maybe during surgery and that body region becomes numb no matter the manner of injury you inflict to that portion the person wouldn't feel any pain. Suffice to say it is not the fire that is really responsible for the pain,what causes u to feel pain is the reaction of your body(the pain receptors,brain and motor receptors) to the stimulus(the fire).
So having established this,we can say that no nervous system,no pain

So this brings us to my question

Does the spirit (if it actually exists as claimed)possess a nervous system or a replica of some sort ?
If it doesn't then how exactly will a spirit feel pain ?


Cc Ihedinobi3,originalkalokalo,Mutteylaff,rekinomtla,
budaatum,
Johnydon22,CAPSLOCKED,XxSabrinaxX,
Frank317,Seun

First, we don't really know very much about spirits. We do know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else. The Bible does not go far beyond that.

Second, the Lake of Fire is definitely literal fire but probably in a sense that we do not yet know since this fire apparently is not going to be prevent the Lake from being supernaturally dark in a way that mankind has never quite experienced darkness. So, we don't know enough from the Bible to tell what that Fire really is compared to the fire that we know.

Third, even the unbelievers who get thrown into the Lake of Fire will be going with different bodies than the one we all possess now so that the question of nervous systems may still apply to them as well.

Fourth, this is all very supernatural. Clearly, the Bible talks of an eternal punishment. No one knows of a fire that lasts eternally. We all expect stars to burn out and for planets to collapse into them eventually. Even though science is pretty wrong about that since the earth will stand until the return of the King, the Bible does teach that all of this Universe will be destroyed at the end of the King's Millennium after which time a new Creation will be made. So, questions about the Lake of Fire that fail to take its supernatural nature into consideration miss the point entirely. This is punishment that rebellious spirits and resurrected unbelievers as well as Nephilim will definitely experience and regret thoroughly forever.

Hermes019:

Oh lawd,how many times am I going to explain these things
Emotions are the handwork of the nervous system
The brain is the centre of the whole stuff,if the spirit or soul doesn't have the nervous system how does it "feel" anything,what is the mechanism ?

The understanding of all these things is given to few so those who are just presumptuous will only continue to make wrong assertions!
You must identify those given the spirit of wisdom in order to tell you the meaning. Note that even inspired writers of these words weren't given the spirit of understanding back then,instead God told them that those who will understand will come much later! Daniel 12:8-10
So you need to IDENTIFY Christ's brothers {Matthew 25:31-45}}in this end time,they are the ones Jesus gave the obligation to teach others who feels the need for spiritual food! John 21:15-17
Jehovah can't withstand the sight of agony that's why HE often empower angels and instruct them on what they're to do to those who proves to be disturbances to the peace and security HE planned from the beginning.
HIS eyes are too pure to keep looking at someone suffering in pains,so HE only arrange for how to return disobedient intelligent creatures to nonexistence!
The idea of continuous torturing of living creatures has not come into HIS heart! Jeremiah 7:31
So if we're reading of anything that we finds difficult to grasp,we should first remember the attributes of the creator and if it does not correlate then we should know that such utterances are not to be taken literal.

Ihedinobi3:

First, we don't really know very much about spirits. We do know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else. The Bible does not go far beyond that.

Second, the Lake of Fire is definitely literal fire but probably in a sense that we do not yet know since this fire apparently is not going to be prevent the Lake from being supernaturally dark in a way that mankind has never quite experienced darkness. So, we don't know enough from the Bible to tell what that Fire really is compared to the fire that we know.

Third, even the unbelievers who get thrown into the Lake of Fire will be going with different bodies than the one we all possess now so that the question of nervous systems may still apply to them as well.

Fourth, this is all very supernatural. Clearly, the Bible talks of an eternal punishment. No one knows of a fire that lasts eternally. We all expect stars to burn out and for planets to collapse into them eventually. Even though science is pretty wrong about that since the earth will stand until the return of the King, the Bible does teach that all of this Universe will be destroyed at the end of the King's Millennium after which time a new Creation will be made. So, questions about the Lake of Fire that fail to take its supernatural nature into consideration miss the point entirely. This is punishment that rebellious spirits and resurrected unbelievers as well as Nephilim will definitely experience and regret thoroughly forever.

So in conclusion we can't relate to our spirit or soul "feeling" pain ?
But if I may ask do you think the spirit or soul(not that I believe they exist) can "feel" ?

Hermes019:

So in conclusion we can't relate to our spirit or soul "feeling" pain ?
But if I may ask do you think the spirit or soul(not that I believe they exist) can "feel" ?

The Bible does not tell us whether spirits can feel or not. What it does say is that rebel angels today are afraid of being put in the Abyss which is a place supernaturally devoid of light in every respect. Thus, we can believe that the Lake of Fire must be able to affect them unpleasantly too.

Ihedinobi3:

The Bible does not tell us whether spirits can feel or not. What it does say is that rebel angels today are afraid of being put in the Abyss which is a place supernaturally devoid of light in every respect. Thus, we can believe that the Lake of Fire must be able to affect them unpleasantly too.

Fear is a feeling,so going by what you said the bible does suggest that spirits can feel,I would come back to this.
Mutteylaff says when a person dies the spirit returns to YHWH while the soul faces judent,hence it is the soul that is cast into hell,are you in agreement with this ?

Hermes019:

Fear is a feeling,so going by what you said the bible does suggest that spirits can feel,I would come back to this.
Mutteylaff says when a person dies the spirit returns to YHWH while the soul faces judent,hence it is the soul that is cast into hell,are you in agreement with this ?

I phrased things like I did because we can "feel" material stimuli, like touch or heat etc, which are all things we experience as physical beings. But we can also "feel" joy or peace or anger which do not require any material stimulus so that being physical is not necessary for such feelings.

The Bible does not tell us that spirits experience material stimuli, so I cannot say categorically that they feel in that sense. But, of course, they can experience fear as a feeling as well as pleasure etc.

My concern is always with what the Bible says, so I will only answer you from that perspective.

1.
[7]then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 NASB

This means that after death, our part is done and God's bit begins in earnest. To explain, yes, God rules Creation even while we live but He limits His influence to allow us to make free decisions about Him. But death ends our opportunity to freely make decisions about Him and then we must face the consequences of those decisions. This is what it means that our spirits return to God.

2.
[7]Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NASB

[45]So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB

The above means that man is a spirit which God created to live in a physical body. That is, man is not a body, soul and spirit. Rather, he is a soul which is what results from the creation of a spirit that lives in a physical body. Therefore, it is not possible to separate a spirit which goes to God from a soul which goes to hell.

3.
[28]Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 NASB

[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:22-25 NASB

[2]Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NASB

[28]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[29]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:28-29 NASB

[4]Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[12]And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
[13]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
[15]And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:4,12-13,15 NASB

The first passage in the above should be read in light of those that follow. The point in that verse is that it is God Who is to be feared because He is the Only One Who can truly harm us in every way. When our bodies are destroyed, we will still live. In fact, when this earthly body dies, we are given another interim one with which we wait for either the Resurrection of the Righteous or the Judgment of the Great White Throne. It is only God Who can truly harm not just our earthly bodies but our whole being. That is what the Lake of Fire is designed to do. It can damage spirits which otherwise cannot be affected at all except by the Abyss and Torments (both of which are still part of Hell and will be filled with this Lake in the end).

As the following passages above show, there is no separation of spirit from soul for punishment. We are rewarded or punished in our full composition as human persons (that is what "soul" means).

Hermes019:

Well that is what religionists say,its not my position

I hope you know that they are spirits only in this realm of solid matter? In their world they are people walking and talking as you and i do here. They have their fire just like we have ours. They have their Sun just like we do here.

TATIME:
Well i can beat my chest a thousand times that there is no other source of TRUE faith except Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course you did not just wake up one day and started receiving a totally different thought from all the existing religious groups around you if not somebody from somewhere hint you! Please don't come here to play another Daddy Freeze because i am sure the guy has read a lot of publications of the Watchtower!

I'm not a Daddy Freeze, and of course, I agree with almost all JW teachings (about hell, trinity, etc). But then, this is the Bible truth. It's written all over it. How the the most well known verse in the Bible talk about sinners perishing and we teaching eternal torment? Is it that we don't understand common English or what?
I must confess I enjoy the company of JWs and watchtower publications, but I disagree with them on issues bordering on blood transfusions.

Ihedinob3, I hope you don't mind me practising how to get over my sinning of sarcasm on you please. Juju and Pagan will be monitoring me to say when I'm being sarcastic to help me remove forests from my eyes. The Lord is our shepherd.

I have some questions please.

Ihedinobi3:
First, we don't really know very much about spirits.

To whom do you refer to as the "we", that does not really know?

Ihedinobi3:
We do know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else.

"We don't know very much", yet we "know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else"?

How do wes that know so little know so much?

Ihedinobi3:
The Bible does not go far beyond that.

Bread alone causes malnutrition. There is a benefit in a varied diet.

The reason I phrased things like I did is that we can "feel" material stimuli, like touch or heat etc, which are all things we experience as physical beings. But we can also "feel" joy or peace or anger which do not require any material stimulus so that being physical is not necessary for such feelings.

The Bible does not tell us that spirits experience material stimuli, so I cannot say categorically that they feel in that sense. But, of course, they can experience fear as a feeling as well as pleasure etc.

I don't know how many times I have to say this,"a feeling" is a function of the nervous system. Pleasure,pain,joy,peace,all these things arise from the activities of the nervous system,it mustn't be in the presence of a "physical" stimulus. If a person loses a dear one,there is no "physical" stimulus like heat or pressure but the person feels pain,all these are attributes of the nervous system particularly the brain,so the question I have posed is that you give an explanation(if you have one) of how a spirit/soul would feel pain if it doesn't have a nervous system

My concern is always with what the Bible says, so I will only answer you from that perspective.

1.
[7]then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 NASB

This means that after death, our part is done and God's bit begins in earnest. To explain, yes, God rules Creation even while we live but He limits His influence to allow us to make free decisions about Him. But death ends our opportunity to freely make decisions about Him and then we must face the consequences of those decisions. This is what it means that our spirits return to God.

2.
[7]Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NASB

[45]So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB

The above means that man is a spirit which God created to live in a physical body. That is, man is not a body, soul and spirit. Rather, he is a soul which is what results from the creation of a spirit that lives in a physical body. Therefore, it is not possible to separate a spirit which goes to God from a soul which goes to hell.

3.
[28]Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 NASB

[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:22-25 NASB

[2]Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NASB

[28]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[29]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:28-29 NASB

[4]Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[12]And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
[13]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
[15]And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:4,12-13,15 NASB

The first passage in the above should be read in light of those that follow. The point in that verse is that it is God Who is to be feared because He is the Only One Who can truly harm us in every way. When our bodies are destroyed, we will still live. In fact, when this earthly body dies, we are given another interim one with which we wait for either the Resurrection of the Righteous or the Judgment of the Great White Throne. It is only God Who can truly harm not just our earthly bodies but our whole being. That is what the Lake of Fire is designed to do. It can damage spirits which otherwise cannot be affected at all except by the Abyss and Torments (both of which are still part of Hell and will be filled with this Lake in the end).

As the following passages above show, there is no separation of spirit from soul for punishment. We are rewarded or punished in our full composition as human persons(that is what "soul" means).

@ the bolded,does this "full composition" you refer to include our physical body ?

Hermes019:

Wow,I like your view I must say but again thus is ur own interpretation, I'm sure another Christian would Give a different interpretation of that passage and I don't really think yours is most accurate.
What sayeth thou about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in the bible,the rich man was in hell fire burning,if a sinner's soul simply perishes as you said,doesn't that pass a message different from that parable ?

Well, we can only take the parable for what it is, a parable, and not literally.
Remember that Lazarus was carried bodily to heaven, while the rich was buried in his grave?
How can they ever communicate in such circumstance?
Just as Abel's blood crying from the ground can not be taken literally, this one should not be.
The rich man, in my opinion, is a symbolic representation of Jews (with spiritual wealth), while the poor Lazarus is the gentiles (being referred to as dogs by the Jews).
While the Jews rejected the message of salvation in Jesus, the gentiles embraced it. And later in that same verse, Jesus said, even if Lazarus was raised from the dead, the Jews (richman's brethren) would believe. Just about a week later after Jesus said the parable, he raised a real life Lazarus from the dead, but instead of the Jews to believe and accept the message of the Messiah, they even tried to kill risen Lazarus. By Jews here, I'm referring largely to the Pharisees who believe that merely being an offspring of Abraham is enough guarantee of salvation (and surely, only these set of people would say "Father Abraham" in prayer)
It's still a fact that "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.” (Romans 6:23). Believing sinners will be tormented in hell for eternity is just believing they also will have everlasting life. The Bible only told us of death, destruction of sinners.

DeOTR:

Well, we can only take the parable for what it is, a parable, and not literally.
Remember that Lazarus was carried bodily to heaven, while the rich was buried in his grave?
How can they ever communicate in such circumstance?
Just as Abel's blood crying from the ground can not be taken literally, this one should not be.
The rich man, in my opinion, is a symbolic representation of Jews (with spiritual wealth), while the poor Lazarus is the gentiles (being referred to as dogs by the Jews).
While the Jews rejected the message of salvation in Jesus, the gentiles embraced it. And later in that same verse, Jesus said, even if Lazarus was raised from the dead, the Jews (richman's brethren) would believe. Just about a week later after Jesus said the parable, he raised a real life Lazarus from the dead, but instead of the Jews to believe and accept the message of the Messiah, they even tried to kill risen Lazarus. By Jews here, I'm referring largely to the Pharisees who believe that merely being an offspring of Abraham is enough guarantee of salvation (and surely, only these set of people would say "Father Abraham" in prayer)
It's still a fact that "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.” (Romans 6:23). Believing sinners will be tormented in hell for eternity is just believing they also will have everlasting life. The Bible only told us of death, destruction of sinners.

Ok,I wouldn't endulge u further since its not exactly the purpose of the thread, but it was a pleasure.I wonder what your fellow christians(non Jehovah witnesses to be specific) would make of ur position

TATIME:
Well as a former Muslim i don't have a problem with strong convictions even if it means loosing my PRESENT life for what i believe! Daniel 3:16-18,Matthew 16:25
So the issue of blood transfusion is as dead as anything breathless before me.
Saturday Sabbath is another issue that has no hold on me since i don't worship in line with the Mosaic laws,i'm now a Christian and Christ is my law. Romans 10:1-4
Therefore i can only be concerned with Sabbath if Jesus is held back from doing what supposed to be done on the Sabbath{Saturday}. Luke 6:9
Those laws were given to the ancient Israelites to prepare their minds for things to come. Hebrew 10:1
For instance at Exodus 23:12 God gave us the reason for that law "so that you can set aside a day for your slaves and animals of burden". Of course some people won't set any day for worship talkless a day for their slaves to rest if God did not give such law! Today even the human laws has decreed that one day{Sunday} should be for rest. Romans 2:14
We're not under those laws because we became worshipers of Jehovah{the God of Israel} not through the law covenant but by faith in Christ Jesus who is the mediator of ANOTHER covenant! Jeremiah 31:31-34
Continue studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses,don't forget that you can't QUICKLY and fully grasp every principle in God's word{John 16:12} that's where faith,endurance and hope in all things comes in{1 Corinthians 13:6,7} since you've IDENTIFIED the one and only organization teaching the TRUTH as it's clearly stated in God's word!
You will only continue to stumble on falsehood upon falsehood if you desert JWs simply because of few things that's not clear to you. My advice to you is to behave like the first century 12 followers of Jesus who stick to Him as they're sure that it's ONLY Him that's teaching the TRUTH,though majority deserted Him because He said some things that doesn't go well with them! John 6:64-69
So my friend i'm not supposed to be the one telling you all these considering my background as a Muslim but i've learnt to ENDURE whatever comes my way for the sake of TRUTH. God bless you!

Christians are not excused from keeping the Sabbath. In fact, it's what will set true believers of Christ apart when the time comes.
It's very important to draw a line between the mosaic law and the ten commandments here. Don't forget the Sabbath law (4th commandment) was written on stone, just like the other nine, so you can't say you're keeping the 9 and say this one is not important. It's part of the moral law of God, not a ceremonial law. It's part of the law that points us to sin.
It's a part of the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25)
Paul delighted in this law (Roman 7:22, 7:7).
The ten commandments (Deut. 10:5, Exo. 40:20) is different from ceremonial laws (Deut. 31:26).
So let's not mix the two together.
While the ten commandments defines sin, the ceremonial laws are remedies for breaking any of the ten commandments. But as Christians, we are no longer under the bondage of the ceremonial laws. Jesus only is the remedy of sin. This was what Paul emphasized.
Even Jesus, our example and mentor, kept the Sabbath and taught us the right way to keep the holy day. People said he broke the Sabbath, but no, he was telling us the best way of keeping it. Nothing wrong in helping people on the Sabbath if we have to.
Interestingly, the book of Revelation told us that people who didn't receive the mark of the beast have something in common. What is it? They keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12).
So being a true Christian involves keeping God's commandments and the faith of Jesus.
"Remember ye to keep the Sabbath holy".
That was a reminder for all believers, not just the Jews.

Hermes019:

Ok,I wouldn't endulge u further since its not exactly the purpose of the thread, but it was a pleasure.I wonder what your fellow christians(non Jehovah witnesses to be specific) would make of ur position

Throughout the ages, it's only the few that believe the truth. Days of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah, just mention it. The word of God will be the testimony, not what we were told.

budaatum:
Ihedinob3, I hope you don't mind me practising how to get over my sinning of sarcasm on you please. Juju and Pagan will be monitoring me to say when I'm being sarcastic to help me remove forests from my eyes. The Lord is our shepherd.

I have some questions please.


To whom do you refer to as the "we", that does not really know?

Christians. I assume them here to be diligent students of the Bible.

budaatum:
"We don't know very much", yet we "know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else"?

How do wes that know so little know so much?

This is hardly "so much" to know. There are very many questions about the spiritual realm and spirits - including the one asked here - that the Bible does not answer. We know that angels can affect physical phenomena because the Bible teaches that they do. An elect angel rolled away the stone that sealed the Lord Jesus's tomb. A band of rebel angels destroyed Job's wealth and his family using wind and fire and influence over hostile human beings. A single angel killed many Israelites when David sinned by carrying out an unsanctioned census of Israel. These are demonstrations of a spirit's ability to affect the physical realm.

budaatum:
Bread alone causes malnutrition. There is a benefit in a varied diet.

What the Bible offers is perfect for the purpose of free will in this life. We are given to know exactly what we need to know in order to make the choice around which life revolves: to trust God and submit to Him or to reject Him and rebel against Him.

Hermes019:

I don't know how many times I have to say this,"a feeling" is a function of the nervous system. Pleasure,pain,joy,peace,all these things arise from the activities of the nervous system,it mustn't be in the presence of a "physical" stimulus. If a person loses a dear one,there is no "physical" stimulus like heat or pressure but the person feels pain,all these are attributes of the nervous system particularly the brain,so the question I have posed is that you give an explanation(if you have one) of how a spirit/soul would feel pain if it doesn't have a nervous system

My position is the same as that of the Bible. Spirits are not physical and thus do not possess a nervous system but they do feel fear and other emotions. How that is so is not explained in the Bible.

Hermes019:
@ the bolded,does this "full composition" you refer to include our physical body ?

It includes a material body, yes, but not the same one that we have right now. After death, every human spirit is clothed in an interim body about which we know very little as well. At the Resurrection whether of believers or of unbelievers, a new body is given to each person which is suited to their spiritual status. Believers get a new material body which is perfectly suited to their blessed status; unbelievers get a material body as well which is perfectly suited to their cursed status.

DeOTR:

Christians are not excused from keeping the Sabbath. In fact, it's what will set true believers of Christ apart when the time comes.
It's very important to draw a line between the mosaic law and the ten commandments here. Don't forget the Sabbath law (4th commandment) was written on stone, just like the other nine, so you can't say you're keeping the 9 and say this one is not important. It's part of the moral law of God, not a ceremonial law. It's part of the law that points us to sin.
It's a part of the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25)
Paul delighted in this law (Roman 7:22, 7:7).
The ten commandments (Deut. 10:5, Exo. 40:20) is different from ceremonial laws (Deut. 31:26).
So let's not mix the two together.
While the ten commandments defines sin, the ceremonial laws are remedies for breaking any of the ten commandments. But as Christians, we are no longer under the bondage of the ceremonial laws. Jesus only is the remedy of sin. This was what Paul emphasized.
Even Jesus, our example and mentor, kept the Sabbath and taught us the right way to keep the holy day. People said he broke the Sabbath, but no, he was telling us the best way of keeping it. Nothing wrong in helping people on the Sabbath if we have to.
Interestingly, the book of Revelation told us that people who didn't receive the mark of the beast have something in common. What is it? They keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12).
So being a true Christian involves keeping God's commandments and the faith of Jesus.
"Remember ye to keep the Sabbath holy".
That was a reminder for all believers, not just the Jews.

This is why all those religious groups failed to meet up with the high regard all of them are having for Jehovah's Witnesses!
There were 600 laws in total, God wrote TEN on stone tablets so that Israelites could SEE and believe that truly it is that same God{who brought them out of Egypt} that gave Moses all those laws to pass onto them.
The LAW COVENANT of God was between HIM and the nation of Israel{ONLY},Moses is the MEDIATOR of this covenant.
So when Jesus instituted Christianity the laws were not to continue because another COVENANT was established and Jesus is the MEDIATOR.
That's why the Christians kept asking Jesus questions because Jesus refused to keep the Sabbath law claiming He is the "Lord of Sabbath"! Mark 2:28
Later Christians living in Galatia were trying to keep part of those laws so Paul made it clear to them that {they were baptised as Christians NOT on the bases of the laws but on the bases of faith in Christ Jesus}. Galatians 3:1-5
Paul later concluded that those laws served as a guardian leading the Jews to faith in Jesus but since faith has arrived Christians are NO LONGER UNDER A GUARDIAN! Galatians 3:23-28
Now take note that when Jesus met Paul and appointed him as an Apostle,Jesus said Paul will serve as the Apostle of the nations{none Israelites including you and i} Act 9:15 compared to Romans 1:5
So Christians have NO business with any of those laws given to the Israelites my friend,whenever Christians are talking about God's commandment they are referring to Jesus' THOUGHTS,WORDS and ACTIONS which is vital for our salvation NOT any part of the old covenant laws! Hebrew 9:15 Whoever can master these three things automatically qualifies for everlasting life. John 3:16-18 compared to 1Corinthians 2:16
All these you can NEVER find any religious group that can get the understanding of the scriptures to the level of Jehovah's Witnesses because "we're associating based on the promises of the new covenant group" and nobody is given the spirit of understanding apart from these group! Zechariah 8:23
Even Daniel{one of God's prophet of old} asked God for the understanding of these sacred secrets regarding this end time but God told Daniel "go and rest till you're resurrected to come and have your own portion,because some will be given the understanding and some will NEVER understand" Daniel 12:8-10
So what will cause those ones NEVER to understand? It's simply because they'll refuse to learn from the CHOSEN ones whom Jesus is using in this end time!

Well, my position is the same as that of the Bible. Spirits are not physical and thus does not possess a nervous system but they do feel fear and other emotions. How that is so is not explained in the Bible.

So does that mean one can't imagine or relate to what it feels like for one's spirit to feel pain ?

It includes a material body, yes, but not the same one that we have right now. After death, every human spirit is clothed in an interim body about which we know very little as well. At the Resurrection whether of believers or of unbelievers, a new body is given to each person which is suited to their spiritual status. Believers get a new material body which is perfectly suited to their blessed status; unbelievers get a material body as well which is perfectly suited to their cursed status.

Bible source

If it's all the same to you, could you include my name in the quote tags? I almost always attend to discussions from my mentions.

Hermes019:

So does that mean one can't imagine or relate to what it feels like for one's spirit to feel pain ?

That is quite right. We are spirits living in physical bodies and experience such feelings as joy, fear, pleasure that angels experience too. The difference is that our bodies are our means of experiencing these things. "Bodyless" spirits like angels experience them differently than we do.

Hermes019:
Bible source

For the interim body...

[9]When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
[10]and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
[11]And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
Revelation 6:9-11 NASB

See also 2 Corinthians 5:1-3 but in the Greek:

For we know that if our earthly tent-dwelling (i.e., our physical body) be struck, we have an abode [that comes] from God, a dwelling made without human agency, eternal in the heavens. For indeed we do groan in this one, desiring to put on our habitation which comes from heaven. And [even] if we do put off this present one, at any rate, we (i.e., our spirits) will not be found naked (i.e., "body-less" ).
2 Corinthians 5:1-3 (courtesy of Professor Robert Luginbill, http://ichthys.com/mail-interim%20state.htm)

For the Resurrection Body...

[35]But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
[36]You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
[37]and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
[38]But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
[39]All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
[40]There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
[41]There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
[42]So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
[43]it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
[44]it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:35-44 NASB