MuttleyLaff:


Hermes019, we can imagine what hell is like because of the narrative of the famous parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in it, the rich man is begging for a dip of the tip of Lazarus' finger in water to cool his tongue as he is tormented in there. He even additionally begged to have his brothers be warned about the place, but his request wasnt granted. Elsewhere, like I previously mentioned, the bible, also about fiery furnace, said there will be weeping there and gnashing of teeth in there, obviously not to be taken literally, but still

Ihedinobi what do you think,do you agree with him ?

BeLookingIDIOT:

There is a difference between a logical explanation and a scientific one- The explanation I had given is hope I wont be causing u to multitask...interrupting ur chats with important humans in ya life this morning again? logical.
The cause is hell and the effect will be pain-that's a simple enough mechanism.

You are right but in this context we are bringing it down to the actual mechanism that creates the effect,the "cause" is not the stimulus(hell),the cause is the nervous system.

TATIME:
God's word says "be obedient to the superior authorities" Romans 13:1
So if they say Wednesday is the day we're allowed to go for our sacred services,it's OK! All we must do is render sacred services to our God,the particular day or venue is NO MORE important. John 4:21-24

Not when it runs contrary to the law of God.
Would you go to war if the "superior authorities" told you to?
You don't even say the national anthem or the pledge. Since when is earthly authority having upper hand in deciding what you do in JW?
There are hundreds of denominations going back to the right ways of worshipping on the Sabbath as it should be.
The moment the global government pass a law to observe a rest day different from what God directed in his commandments (they're already working towards it with all the noise about global warming) , know it's the end.
There's no way you're going to rationalize the breaking of the Sabbath. God never sanctified or blessed any other day for us to spend time with him. Check from Genesis to Revelation, you won't find any verse to support your view.
By the way, JW could gain access to me because I'm a Sabbath keeper, otherwise I would be in Church most times they come knocking on my gate on Sundays.

Hermes019:
You are still repeating what you have been saying
I don't have an issue with what you believe, you can believe that souls can feel pain without the nervous system
I want to know the mechanism that would produce such pain its either you know it or you don't
I don't know why we are going over this again,so let me ask you directly
Mutteylaff do you know the mechanism/process through which souls would feel pain since the one we know(the nervous system) is absent ?

P.S the bolded in ur post is your personal opinion there is no reason for me to agree with that,pain can not come out from anywhere,it must have a mechamism

Hermes019, when one is dead, there is no body, so expectedly, there's no more a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit the pain message. This is a fact and not an opinion Hermes019

You have an issue with the truth, not what I believe in, what I believe in doesnt matter, it is the truth that matters, and that truth, which doesnt fit the bets you're try to hedge on, which doesnt align with your agenda, is that, pain can be and will be felt, in absence of a body, absence of a nervous system or other bodily mechanism

Hermes019:
Ihedinobi what do you think,do you agree with him ?

The question you should have asked, is that, is what I wrote in the bible or not. Was the rich man in the parable tormented or not tormented, did the bile say or not that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Hermes019:
You are right but in this context we are bringing it down to the actual mechanism that creates the effect,the "cause" is not the stimulus(hell),the cause is the nervous system.

Do you know that, Jesus, after resurrection, walked through a wall, or was it door?

Seandisputed:

"It is appointed for man to die once, and after this, judgement"
How do you explain this?

Whether it's a thousand years before the coming of Christ, it's a fact that judgement comes after death.
We die once, and after this (not immediately after this), judgement.
It's written all over the Bible that the dead are sleeping, so I wouldn't where we are get this idea of (immortal soul or spirit that survives the body after death) or judgement immediately after death. If all men are judged immediately after death, what then is the essence of the great white throne judgement at the last day?

when one is dead, there is no body, so expectedly, there's no more a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit the pain message. This is a fact and not an opinion Hermes019

Have you any experience of what you are saying ?,you are not the one to determine if it is a fact or not,what makes it a fact is the evidence you bring

You have an issue with the truth, not what I believe in, what I believe in doesnt matter, it is the truth that matters, and that truth, which doesnt fit the bets you're try to hedge on, which doesnt align with your agenda, is that, pain can be and will be felt, in absence of a body, absence of a nervous system or other bodily mechanism

Truth that is not backed by sufficient evidence is no better than a hunch

The question you should have asked, is that, is what I wrote in the bible or not. Was the rich man in the parable tormented or not tormented, did the bile say or not that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

I did not say you were wrong,I only solicited his opinion

Do you know that, Jesus, after resurrection, walked through a wall, or was it door?

Do you know that Mohammed split the moon ?

Abuventure:
The fire talked about in revelation isn't physical. So spiritual fire is for the spirit while physical fire is for physical.

Spiritual fire ke

So spirits also need spiritual fire to cook spiritual food and burn spiritual bush?

Smh @ spiritual fire, how does this one even look... I bet they need spiritual matches to start this.

DeOTR:

Not when it runs contrary to the law of God.
Would you go to war if the "superior authorities" told you to?
You don't even say the national anthem or the pledge. Since when is earthly authority having upper hand in deciding what you do in JW?
There are hundreds of denominations going back to the right ways of worshipping on the Sabbath as it should be.
The moment the global government pass a law to observe a rest day different from what God directed in his commandments (they're already working towards it with all the noise about global warming) , know it's the end.
There's no way you're going to rationalize the breaking of the Sabbath. God never sanctified or blessed any other day for us to spend time with him. Check from Genesis to Revelation, you won't find any verse to support your view.
By the way, JW could gain access to me because I'm a Sabbath keeper, otherwise I would be in Church most times they come knocking on my gate on Sundays.

That's where discernment comes in my friend.
Jesus said "give Caesar's things to Ceasar,and God's things to God" Ceasar is the superior authority so whatever they demands as long as it stands clear not colliding with the laws of Jehovah we will obey them.
The Sabbath was NEVER instituted from the beginning so Jesus made it clear that it was given for men to make use of it and NOT for the Sabbath to make use of man! Mark 2:27
So since we've understood the purpose of Sabbath
*make time for spiritual matters.
*make time for rest
We're no under compulsion to say it must be so and so day,therefore if the authorities says the day i use for sacred services should be used for work,i'm sure they can't make a law that there shouldn't be REST so i'll make use of such a day for my sacred services to my God. Don't worry yourself about our own Jehovah my friend because we understand HIM and HE also understands our limitations. Psalms 103:13,14
Killing means judging if someone is fit for life or not so we must not JUDGE as in terminate life.
National anthem is swearing ones faith to a particular authority whereas our whole soul service should be for our God,so we can't do that because doing so will mean giving all my soul and strength and mind to a particular worldly government in some location. No my friend our obedience to them is relative NOT whole soul,whoever mount that position we will obey since our own government is from heaven! For better understanding of this aspect,imagine a thief ordering you to sit,stand or move. Surely you will continue to obey at gunpoint but when another superior authority with weapons starts giving orders,you will change and start obeying the SUPERIOR. That is the condition we finds ourselves until God's kingdom comes to wipe them all away! Daniel 2:44

DeOTR:

Whether it's a thousand years before the coming of Christ, it's a fact that judgement comes after death.
We die once, and after this (not immediately after this), judgement.
It's written all over the Bible that the dead are sleeping, so I wouldn't where we are get this idea of (immortal soul or spirit that survives the body after death) or judgement immediately after death. If all men are judged immediately after death, what then is the essence of the great white throne judgement at the last day?

Did you read the guy who quoted me before your reply?

What is your perspective on his submission.

Hermes019:

The bolded is the aspect I appreciate in ur post,but if it stands correct then why do people fear hell,even if YHWH says its unpleasant we cannot relate to what unpleasance is without our physical senses so any "unpleasance" that can be observed without our physical senses is oblivious to us so again I ask
Why do people fear hell ?

I think it is obvious that not everyone fears hell. You don't, I assume. Nor do many other atheists on this website, if their own words are anything to judge by.

As I said, it is all about free will. We can choose to fear God. Or to not fear Him. Those who do essentially take His Word for the unpleasantness of Hell. Those who don't, don't.

Ihedinobi3:

I think it is obvious that not everyone fears hell. You don't, I assume. Nor do many other atheists on this website, if their own words are anything to judge by.

As I said, it is all about free will. We can choose to fear God. Or to not fear Him. Those who do essentially take His Word for the unpleasantness of Hell. Those who don't, don't.

I don't believe that hell exists,so I can't be afraid of it
But for those who believe like yourself,why would you fear hell if you can not relate with the "pain" it would cause,some even draw parallels with things like normal fire

Hermes019:

Ihedinobi what do you think,do you agree with him ?

Let me clarify that I am willing to both provide answers about the Bible and defend those answers but I would rather not be asked for an opinion on other people's positions on the Bible. Their positions are theirs and mine are mine.

As for what the Bible actually says here, Hell is at this time in three compartments: Paradise, Torments and the Abyss.

The first is where Abraham and Lazarus are seen to have been in that parable that the Lord Jesus gave and the same place that the Lord promised to be in with the repentant thief on the Cross. This is where all believers who died before the Cross were taken. It was a layover for them because human sin had not yet been paid for. But after the Cross, the Lord Jesus took all those believers to the Third Heaven with Him. So, that part of Hell/Hades/Sheol is empty. It was a very delightful place where they had fellowship with God.

Torments is where the rich man was taken. That is where all unbelievers are deposited after death. There are flames, as the parable shows. It is also clearly a place where the rich man regretted his choices (that is what "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is all about). It is a place which does call to mind the Lake of Fire but it may not be quite the same.

The Abyss is a prison for disobedient angels. Some of them are chained up there. Some are not. But it is a place of supernatural darkness that terrifies rebel angels. Satan will be chained and imprisoned there with a seal set on it to prevent any possibility of escape at the beginning of the Millennium.

The Lake of Fire is where all unbelievers and all disobedient angels will be deposited after the Judgment of the Great White Throne. We see that it is fiery. We see also that it is supernaturally dark with a palpable, painful darkness. We see also that it is a place of torment for all those who end up in it. Finally, "Death and Hades will be thrown into it". That means that the Lake will fill the location of Hades consuming all three compartments.

Now, these descriptions may indeed call up images in one's head. The Bible does offer graphic enough descriptions of these things to make it possible for us to relate to them in some degree. However, our imaginations of them are necessarily only in terms of what we know in the physical world, so we will necessarily fail to properly appreciate these things as they really are. Neither Hades nor the Third Heaven is a part of this Universe. So we really cannot imagine them. We can try but we will necessarily fall short of the reality of them.

As for how literal they are, they are very literal indeed. There is no biblical reason to think that they are not.

Hermes019:

I don't believe that hell exists,so I can't be afraid of it
But for those who believe like yourself,why would you fear hell if you can not relate with the "pain" it would cause,some even draw parallels with things like normal fire

That is my point. You are able to not believe because it is not possible to really imagine Hell.

We cannot imagine what Hell is really like, but we do have fire in our physical experience, and we also have regret as part of our experience today. It is enough for us to know that Hell would offer fiery pain and emotional pain in the form of regret on a level beyond anything we have experienced in this life. We cannot imagine how any experience in this life can be exceeded by that much but we can believe it or we can choose not to believe it.

Finally, I do not fear Hell. If I did, it would be because I don't understand what the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus accomplished for me. Just believing in the Lord Jesus has eliminated any need for me to be concerned about going to Hell. So, my concern right now is just pleasing the Person Who did something so incredibly generous for me, not to try to avoid going to Hell.

TATIME:
That's where discernment comes in my friend.
Jesus said "give Caesar's things to Ceasar,and God's things to God" Ceasar is the superior authority so whatever they demands as long as it stands clear not colliding with the laws of Jehovah we will obey them.
The Sabbath was NEVER instituted from the beginning so Jesus made it clear that it was given for men to make use of it and NOT for the Sabbath to make use of man! Mark 2:27
So since we've understood the purpose of Sabbath
*make time for spiritual matters.
*make time for rest
We're no under compulsion to say it must be so and so day,therefore if the authorities says the day i use for sacred services should be used for work,i'm sure they can't make a law that there shouldn't be REST so i'll make use of such a day for my sacred services to my God. Don't worry yourself about our own Jehovah my friend because we understand HIM and HE also understands our limitations. Psalms 103:13,14
Killing means judging if someone is fit for life or not so we must not JUDGE as in terminate life.
National anthem is swearing ones faith to a particular authority whereas our whole soul service should be for our God,so we can't do that because doing so will mean giving all my soul and strength and mind to a particular worldly government in some location. No my friend our obedience to them is relative NOT whole soul,whoever mount that position we will obey since our own government is from heaven! For better understanding of this aspect,imagine a thief ordering you to sit,stand or move. Surely you will continue to obey at gunpoint but when another superior authority with weapons starts giving orders,you will change and start obeying the SUPERIOR. That is the condition we finds ourselves until God's kingdom comes to wipe them all away! Daniel 2:44

This is your own personal opinion, not that of God or what the Bible says. You said the Sabbath was not instituted from the beginning, so which day exactly did God set apart for rest after creation? I suppose you know the answer.
Sabbath is made for man, yes, but Jesus was not telling you to break it at will. If you read that part in context, you'll understand why he said that. Why would you refuse to save a life on Sabbath just because you're keeping it? Doing things that can not wait till the next day is not breaking the Sabbath (of course, going shopping and the sort is not of them).
The Sabbath law is a part of the ten commandments, except you're ready to clean out the fourth commandment (unfortunately, they're all written on stone), you're committing a sin by breaking it. You're not serving another God, you don't kill, you don't steal, yet trying to wish away a part of the same law not comfortable for you? Sorry, it's not possible.
It's OK if earthly authorities are the ones you rely upon to decide your day off. As for me and my family, Sabbath is it. Peace.

Seandisputed:

Did you read the guy who quoted me before your reply?

What is your perspective on his submission.

It's just his personal opinion. There's no judgement taking place anywhere at the moment. The dead (righteous or not) are sleeping.
The great white throne judgement is the only judgement I know that will take place.
God is a God of justice. The last day judgement is meant to expose the evil deeds of the damned, and it won't be shrouded in secrecy, which he is suggesting.

@MuttleyLaff, sorry for misquoting you.
As for the texts in Genesis 6, I think it's plain as it comes. No hidden meaning.

DeOTR:

It's just his personal opinion. There's no judgement taking place anywhere at the moment. The dead (righteous or not) are sleeping.
The great white throne judgement is the only judgement I know that will take place.
God is a God of justice. The last day judgement is meant to expose the evil deeds of the damned, and it won't be shrouded in secrecy, which he is suggesting.

I think i agree with your's more.

DeOTR:

This is your own personal opinion, not that of God or what the Bible says. You said the Sabbath was not instituted from the beginning, so which day exactly did God set apart for rest after creation? I suppose you know the answer.
Sabbath is made for man, yes, but Jesus was not telling you to break it at will. If you read that part in context, you'll understand why he said that. Why would you refuse to save a life on Sabbath just because you're keeping it? Doing things that can not wait till the next day is not breaking the Sabbath (of course, going shopping and the sort is not of them).
The Sabbath law is a part of the ten commandments, except you're ready to clean out the fourth commandment (unfortunately, they're all written on stone), you're committing a sin by breaking it. You're not serving another God, you don't kill, you don't steal, yet trying to wish away a part of the same law not comfortable for you? Sorry, it's not possible.
It's OK if earthly authorities are the ones you rely upon to decide your day off. As for me and my family, Sabbath is it. Peace.

It's OK Sir keep your Sabbath,as for close to 9,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses globally our Sabbath is anytime convenient for sacred services!
So you and other Sabbath keepers can also take your Sabbath keeping gospel to people since Jesus instruct His followers to go and teach their neighbours ALL THAT HE COMMANDED THEM! Matthew 28:20

frank317:


Spiritual fire ke

So spirits also need spiritual fire to cook spiritual food and burn spiritual bush?

Smh @ spiritual fire, how does this one even look... I bet they need spiritual matches to start this.

hahaha!!! don't miss your talent you are a very good comedian

Hermes019:
Have you any experience of what you are saying ?, you are not the one to determine if it is a fact or not, what makes it a fact is the evidence you bring

Everything I share with you is from the evidence of the bible. It is in that same bible, that a dead rich man, without any body, without a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit pain messages begged for water because it was tormented, this is the fact that one can then feel pain without necessarily havng a human body, without a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit the pain messages

Hermes019:
Truth that is not backed by sufficient evidence is no better than a hunc

I didnt make up what I wrote, I became aware of them from reading the bible.

Hermes019:
I did not say you were wrong, I only solicited his opinion

So you agree, accept and know that the rich man in the parable was tormented and that the bible says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, right?
Why solicit Ihedinobi3 opinion, if you knew what I typed, wasnt wrong, huh?

Hermes019:
Do you know that Mohammed split the moon?

Dont make me laugh please. Even God Almighty wouldnt think something silly like splitting the moon. Please tell me, to what purpose and end would Mohammed want to split the moon for? You are taking tit for tat, too far, with this your Mohammed malarkey