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The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? - Religion - Nairaland

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The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 4:06pm On Sep 03, 2010
Please I dont intend this thread to create our usual brawls or sarcacism against any church, share your opinion and let the other man his.

I seem to have some issues with the dove symbol used in our christian worship, Yes we know the dove signifies peace (Noah's account), Love and gentility but does it therefore imply that a spirit (invisible being) should be symbolized?

Lets take a look at the scriptural account.

During the baptism of Jesus, Luke recorded in his book, chapter 3 verse 22, , and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." So, what I see is that the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form, as a dove might float down and settle on a branch. I can't see a God sending down a bird when He was so adamant about us not worshiping idols or graven images.

In Matthew's account he writes in chapter 3, verse 16 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: "and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him." Again, we see that the Spirit descended like a dove.

Now Look at Isaiah 42:8 - "I am the LORD: that is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images." And in Leviticus, chapter 26, verse1 - "Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God." In other words, don't build idols to worship.

Now let's reason, if God commanded that man not create images to worship, would He actually have sent down a dove out of Heaven to light upon Jesus at His baptism? Wouldn't it make more sense that the Holy Spirit in Heavenly Bodily Form floated down upon Jesus, as a dove might float down and settle on a branch? Maybe there should have been a comma in Luke 3:22 after the words, "in bodily form".

So therefore i seek to know if the dove symbol would mean a form of idolatry or true christian worship?
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by NegroNtns(m): 5:08pm On Sep 03, 2010
Your question is not misplaced.  The dove is symbolic.  In the time of Moses certain animals are deemed unclean and the children of Israel were forbidden to eat or even touch them.  These were animals that either idol worshippers used as sacrifice to placate their gods or predatory animals and or scavengers.  These categories of animals were forbidden in time of Noah, Abraham, Moses and continued so till time of Jesus and even Mohammed. 

Now, in time of Noah he first sent a raven out of the ark to scout for dry land.  There was no dry land but GOD made that raven to continue in perpetual flight for however long it took for dry land to appear.  There is a reason for that.  Noah sent a dove afterwards and the dove returned to announce its findings and Noah stretched his hand out for the dove to perch on so it could be retrieved into the safety of the ark.  Well, he would have had to do same to retrieve the raven but because the raven is unclean. . . .Noah would be in a state of uncleaness before GOD.  So GOD intervened with a command to the raven not to return.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 5:38pm On Sep 03, 2010
Negro,

I wish to thank you for your post, but the question still bothers - Is the dove symbol as used today really good or an ignorant act of idol worship. I have done some few researches on this DOVE SYMBOL and its connotations. And the findings are not pleasant at all.

Bible never said the spirit of God descended AS A DOVE, but like a dove. . .this discredits the idea of using a dove to imply a spirit. example is like saying : "the wind whistled like a human" this would not imply that the wind is a human, it was simply a figure of speech.

I have notes to back, but plea to hear other great responses on the issue. . .as this'll aid a good discourse.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by NegroNtns(m): 5:55pm On Sep 03, 2010
Your query forks into two directions - (a) dove as a divine symbol, and (b) dove as an image of worship.

(a) GOD uses different objects and references to talk communicate with man. When Cain murdered Abel and didn't know what to do with the body, a bird was sent to give him reference. Cain did not start worshipping the bird after that or did he?

(b) worshipping a carved image of a bird is pure idolatry. At the beginning of His creation GOD delegated man to have dominion over all life in the animal kingdom. worshipping a dove image is a surrender of that authority conferred by GOD and is disobedience. GOD did not give dove or any animal dominion over man. . . . but as history shows, man is ever disobedient.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by MissyB1(m): 6:08pm On Sep 03, 2010
Tonye-t:


Now let's reason, if God commanded that man not create images to worship, would He actually have sent down a dove out of Heaven to light upon Jesus at His baptism?

God did not send down a dove from Heaven.
The Holy spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] LIKE a dove. As a dove. Taking the form of a dove.
The dove is not the Holy Spirit neither does the Holy Spirit, in actuality, look like/have the nature of a dove.
He chose to take the form of a dove at that particular event, like He also chose to descend on the apostles IN THE FORM OF  tongues of fire.
He can take any form he chooses. 

There's  actually no need to worship or attribute too much importance to a dove.
The Bible doesn't encourage or justify it. A dove is a dove is a mere dove.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 6:24pm On Sep 03, 2010
Negro_Ntns:

Your query forks into two directions - (a) dove as a divine symbol, and (b) dove as an image of worship.

(a) GOD uses different objects and references to talk communicate with man. When Cain murdered Abel and didn't know what to do with the body, a bird was sent to give him reference. Cain did not start worshipping the bird after that or did he?

A bird?. . .cant seem to have come across this idealogy. please can you shed more light on this creed.  embarassed

Negro_Ntns:

Your query forks into two directions - (a) dove as a divine symbol, and (b) dove as an image of worship.

(b) worshipping a carved image of a bird is pure idolatry. At the beginning of His creation GOD delegated man to have dominion over all life in the animal kingdom. worshipping a dove image is a surrender of that authority conferred by GOD and is disobedience. GOD did not give dove or any animal dominion over man. . . . but as history shows, man is ever disobedient.

We know God uses the nature and distinctive attributes of animals to give indepth knowledge of certain ideas in the scriptures. For instance, when John saw Jesus approaching him for baptism, there was a cry saying ". . .behold the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world".

Lambs were animals used to appease God for the remission of sin in the OT, now Jesus (human) would be doing just the same task thus it was imperative he was called a lamb, meaning He was not to be imaged as a lamb, he only did what the lamb was used for.

The same is the case with the dove, the bird in its attributes is a gentle, peaceful and loving bird. To help humans understand the nature of the holy spirit that came upon Jesus, bible said this bird descended LIKE A dove descends, not AS A DOVE IN ITSELF.

Again, i wouldnt want to assume that idolatry is only confined to graven images, but rather an admiration or reverence of an image. Today when the Holy spirit is taught some folks seem to carry the image of a dove to imply the spirit. . .this i call idolatry.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 6:29pm On Sep 03, 2010
Missy B:

There's actually no need to worship or attribute too much importance to a dove.
The Bible doesn't encourage or justify it. A dove is a dove is a mere dove.

This is exactly what we see today . . . when we try to explain the Holy spirit in a teaching you'll find some folks making arts or imagery of this dove.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by NegroNtns(m): 6:32pm On Sep 03, 2010
I believe I answered your question and if not may God Himself enlighten you. smiley
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 6:38pm On Sep 03, 2010
The RCC came up with this ideology of presaging the holy spirit to be a dove. . . just like the picture of a red-man with 2 horns and a long tail holding a fork to be "the devil".

Ok for better explanation, the babylonian myth had a believe of heralding their goddess to have a daughter and her spirit to be a dove. alot of the RCC has its dogma trailed to the babylonian myth.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 6:40pm On Sep 03, 2010
Negro_Ntns:

I believe I answered your question and if not may God Himself enlighten you. smiley

I really appreciated your contributions.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by aletheia(m): 10:30pm On Sep 03, 2010
Tonye-t:

So therefore i seek to know if the dove symbol would mean a form of idolatry or true christian worship?[/color]
^My two bits: As used today it is a form of idolatry similar to the case of Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4). The dove is often depicted in the bible in a symbolic fashion.
We don't go around today painting images of lambs because Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, do we?

Tonye-t:

A bird?. . .cant seem to have come across this idealogy. please can you shed more light on this creed.  embarassed
I think that story comes from either the Qur'an or the Talmud (not sure right now). It refers to how Cain learnt how to bury Abel in the ground by observing a raven bury another dead raven.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by ogajim(m): 2:29am On Sep 06, 2010
Nice thread I must say lipsrsealed lipsrsealed lipsrsealed

There are a lot of images in Christianity that warrant crtical examination, take the case of the Cross for instance. You see folks wear the Cross every way possible and we don't ask ourselves if that was Jesus or one of the thieves who was crucified with him or those that went before them.

The dove features heavily in the pagan worship if one looks hard enough, Some of those "corporate logos" represent anything but Christianity.


Jesus is Lord.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Nobody: 8:46am On Sep 06, 2010
@tonye-t

Using the dove symbol to represent the holy spirit is not idolatary,it is merely symbolic.The dove symbol is most commonly used to reprent the holy spirit because the holy spirit descended on JESUS during his baptism in the form of a dove.The Dove the descended on JESUS was actually GOD in the form of the holy spirit and could be worshipped as at that instant.

What constitutes idolatary would be the worshipping of ordinary dove symbols because they represent the holy spirit and not using the dove symbols to represent the holy spirit.


The RCC came up with this ideology of presaging the holy spirit to be a dove. . . just like the picture of a red-man with 2 horns and a long tail holding a fork to be "the devil".

Ok for better explanation, the babylonian myth had a believe of heralding their goddess to have a daughter and her spirit to be a dove. alot of the RCC has its dogma trailed to the babylonian myth.

The use of the dove symbol to represent the holy spirit is not restricted to the RCC,it is also common in your penteracal churches most notably the RCCG that uses it as it emblem.

al ot of the RCC has its dogma trailed to the babylonian myth.[/

DO you mind naming some of the RCC dogmas that is trailed to the babylonian myth.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 9:27am On Sep 06, 2010
aletheia:

^My two bits: As used today it is a form of idolatry similar to the case of Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4). The dove is often depicted in the bible in a symbolic fashion.

Aletheia,

Thanks bro you nailed it there, this is exactly the case of this dove symbol. There is this thing with humans, we try to always physicalize spiritual things and this is where idolatory comes in. And what marveled me in that passage u referenced was that the king Hezekiah came to power and destroyed the Bronze snake years after the reign and death of David and Solomon.

Meaning David and Solomon were all worshippers of this serpent directly or indirectly shocked. . .for the reason that they built the 1st temples! . The chasm now is how did God accepted these men knowing they stored/ preserved/ worshipped the bronze serpent?. Hmmm that means someone could be an idolater and still be called God's friend?

Or is there something am not getting? 
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Tonyet1(m): 9:56am On Sep 06, 2010
ogajim:

Nice thread I must say lipsrsealed lipsrsealed lipsrsealed

There are a lot of images in Christianity that warrant crtical examination,

True talk! got me thinking if we should start disengaging ourselves from everything 'churchish'. cheesy
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Nobody: 3:52pm On Sep 06, 2010
There are a lot of images in Christianity that warrant crtical examination,

A very good examples of such images would the the images of pot bellied "daddies "and "mummies" on church bilboards.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Joagbaje(m): 4:11pm On Sep 06, 2010
Many people that use the Dove as symbol assumed a physical Dove appeared at jesus's baptism. But the bible never said a dove appeared but that the holyspirit came down and descended like a dove. Not that he looked like a dove but the descent was best described like a dove descent. For example , the way an airplane lands is different from the way a helicopter lands.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Enigma(m): 4:44pm On Sep 06, 2010
Luke 3:22
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Nobody: 4:50pm On Sep 06, 2010
@joagbaje

Many people that use the Dove as symbol assumed a physical Dove appeared at jesus's baptism. But the bible never said a dove appeared but that the holyspirit came down and descended like a dove. Not that he looked like a dove but the descent was best described like a dove descent. For example , the way an airplane lands is different from the way a helicopter lands.

Why must you try to twist every bible passage , and to think that youare a pastor,I really feel for your misguided ongregation.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Joagbaje(m): 8:52pm On Sep 06, 2010
The holy spirit taking a form of dove is contrary to truth that God should not be represented by images. The bible didn't say the bodily shape was dove body. The descent was dovelike, but the body must have been human figure .because the holy spirit is a person. Flood , wind , fire, water have all been used to describe the manifestation of the spirit. "like a rushing mighty wind" that doesn't describe his person. And we shouldn't. Use such images. If you must use an image, use my picture, he looks like me.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by MissyB1(m): 9:12pm On Sep 06, 2010
Joagbaje:

The holy spirit taking a form of dove is contrary to truth  that God should not be represented by images. The bible didn't say the bodily shape was dove body. The descent was dovelike, but the body must have been human figure .because the holy spirit is a person. Flood , wind , fire, water have all been used to describe the manifestation of the spirit. "like a rushing mighty wind" that doesn't describe his person.  And we shouldn't. Use such images. If you must use an image, use my picture, he looks like me.
Ehn?
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by fyneguy: 9:13pm On Sep 06, 2010
Joagbaje:

The holy spirit taking a form of dove is contrary to truth that God should not be represented by images. The bible didn't say the bodily shape was dove body. The descent was dovelike, but the body must have been human figure .because the holy spirit is a person. Flood , wind , fire, water have all been used to describe the manifestation of the spirit. "like a rushing mighty wind" that doesn't describe his person. And we shouldn't. Use such images. If you must use an image, use my picture, he looks like me.

You wan crush Nuclearboy 's teeth? grin
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by MissyB1(m): 9:23pm On Sep 06, 2010
Luke 3:22

 
New International Version
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
New Living Translation (©2007)
and the Holy Spirit, in bodily form, descended on him like a dove. And a voice from heaven said, "You are my dearly loved Son, and you bring me great joy."

English Standard Version
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

New American Standard Bible
and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

International Standard Version
and the Holy Spirit descended on him, appearing in the form of a dove. Then a voice came from heaven, saying, "You are my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with you!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
and the Holy Spirit came down to him in the form of a dove. A voice from heaven said, "You are my Son, whom I love. I am pleased with you."

The Living Bible says '' The Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove settled upon him. . .''



I've learned something today. undecided
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Enigma(m): 9:27pm On Sep 06, 2010
Honestly, if there ever is a poll for the most pitiful and pitiable poster in this nairaland religion section, Pasiitor Joagbaje should win hands down. No contest. sad
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by aletheia(m): 9:45pm On Sep 06, 2010
Joagbaje:

The holy spirit taking a form of dove is contrary to truth that God should not be represented by images. The bible didn't say the bodily shape was dove body. The descent was dovelike, [size=14pt]but the body must have been human figure[/size] .because the holy spirit is a person. Flood , wind , fire, water have all been used to describe the manifestation of the spirit. "like a rushing mighty wind" that doesn't describe his person. And we shouldn't. Use such images. If you must use an image, use my picture, he looks like me.
^^Joagbaje: please, please and please do study your bible before posting. Because with each passing day, your bible illiteracy is further exposed. I shudder to think that you are a pastor in CE. How many people are you misleading?
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by nuclearboy(m): 9:46pm On Sep 06, 2010
some funny, warped yet predictable responses here.

Luckily the Bible is unambiguous about the form. Plus any worship/reverence for ANY picture/figurine/representation no matter how sincerely done is idolatry.

@Missy:

Please share with us what you've learned/confirmed today!
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by aletheia(m): 9:48pm On Sep 06, 2010
fyneguy:

You wan crush Nuclearboy 's teeth? grin
^^^Your life's mission is to antagonize nuclearboy bah? Please get a life!
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by nuclearboy(m): 9:57pm On Sep 06, 2010
^^^ Don't bother with fyneguy! He's fulfilling his assigned role to support his leader here on NL.

If that is what bakes his potatoes, allow him his kicks. I will ignore him forthwith knowing they have naught to offer.

The functions of the SELF are to think, judge and act. When you give the decision over such to another, you become an extension of such and lose your own self.

You, Aletheia, are obviously an extension of Christ. Allow these people show the world who and what Oyakilome is since they're given to him.

As we all can see, their leader here is doing a great job already and I hope his master is quite proud of him/them
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Enigma(m): 10:06pm On Sep 06, 2010
^^^

Probably best to ignore those types. Do you know that if Oyakhilome says "a spirit" descended on him in the form of a snake, these fellows will proclaim it. In fact, I recall vaguely them saying something like he magically produced a pen or something. They will believe that charlatan before they believe Jesus Christ or God the Father Himself.

Look at the pathetic Joagbaje writing his own "scriptures" that "the body must have been human figure" (sic). The blind leading the blind all behind the charlatan.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by Joagbaje(m): 10:13pm On Sep 06, 2010
Who saw the descent?You quoted Luke, did look see anything? Did he claim he saw it? Who actually saw it. Because the descent was a spiritual manifestation. Not everyone saw it.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by aletheia(m): 10:27pm On Sep 06, 2010
^^But you Joagbaje saw it, to the extent of describing it thus:
Joagbaje:

but the body must have been human figure

I begin to pity you. You see but you do not see. Bible illiteracy masked by pride.

KJV: Luke 3:22. And the Holy Ghost descended in [size=14pt]a bodily shape like a dove[/size] upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

ABP: Luke 3:22. and [4came down 1the 3spirit  2holy] [size=14pt]bodily in a form as a dove[/size] upon him, and a voice out of heaven came, saying, You are  my son the beloved; in you I take pleasure.

Here is what the person that was there said:
KJV: John 1:32. And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

You that was not there is telling us that "the body must have been human figure". Isn't it evident that you are under a delusion.
Re: The Dove Symbol - Pure Idolatry Or True Worship? by MissyB1(m): 10:28pm On Sep 06, 2010
Joagbaje:

Who saw the descent?You quoted Luke, did look see anything? Did he claim he saw it?  Who actually saw it. Because the descent was a spiritual manifestation. Not everyone saw it.
Did John, who witnessed the descent, write about it? What's Your point exactly?

Did they say You're a Pastor? I think not.
''Human body rested on Jesus'' ? Pasitor o. grin

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