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Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:13am On May 14
I'll like to put your response in perspective with my three questions again because I do not think you have answered the questions. However, I promised that I wouldn't respond to your answers.


THE QUESTION



This my question still revolve around death and life


1. “If there is ‘not even one part of us [that] survives the death of the body,’ what did Jesus mean when He said:

Matthew 10:28
‘And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.’
*Apparently, there isn't any difference between how God kills and how man kills since in both cases, the dead know nothing!

Doesn’t this Scripture indicate that the soul is not ‘destroyed’ when the body is killed?

2. If you regard Solomon as an authority on death and the afterlife, do you believe Solomon’s words at

Ecclesiastes 9:6:
‘…they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun’

Doesn't this imply that there is no resurection?
Do you believe that when you die, you will have ‘no portion’ FOREVER ‘in anything… done under the sun’?

3. What about Ecclesiastes 9:2 that proclaims the righteous and the wicked have the same end?
Do you regard these Scriptures as accurate depictions of life and eternity?

Is Solomon not merely portraying a humanistic worldview, not an eternal perspective of life and death?

I wouldn't comment on your response but rather either hear your next question or present another question; Whichever is ok with you.



YOUR RESPONSE!

Maximus69:
To the best of my understanding correlated with other scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, Jesus is talking about the REMEMBRANCE of a person.
Our body means the same thing before highly intelligent spirit beings but the personality[Soul] means different individuals!
For instance, John the baptist is a person just like Herod Antipas considering their corruptible dying bodies, but their personalities matters to God who values the deeds of man!
So if both of them are stabbed, shot or strangled, the memory of the virtuous one is in God's memory book whereas there is no record for the wicked! Genesis 4:10
That is why Jesus could say 'fear the person who can destroy both body[flesh] and soul[personality] in hell[grave].
As regards the SOUL God's word clearly says souls do die[Ezekiel 18:4] and both humans and animals are regarded as souls because your dog[pet] is just a dog to a stranger but to you who knows the dog by name and remembers all the good memories of your pet, you'll never take it lightly if he kills your dog and offer to buy you just another dog! smiley


Would you want to ask another question or do I proceed with mine?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 2:17pm On May 14
shadeyinka:
I'll like to put your response in perspective with my three questions again because I do not think you have answered the questions. However, I promised that I wouldn't respond to your answers.


THE QUESTION



This my question still revolve around death and life


1. “If there is ‘not even one part of us [that] survives the death of the body,’ what did Jesus mean when He said:

Matthew 10:28
‘And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na.’
*Apparently, there isn't any difference between how God kills and how man kills since in both cases, the dead know nothing!

Doesn’t this Scripture indicate that the soul is not ‘destroyed’ when the body is killed?

2. If you regard Solomon as an authority on death and the afterlife, do you believe Solomon’s words at

Ecclesiastes 9:6:
‘…they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun’

Doesn't this imply that there is no resurection?
Do you believe that when you die, you will have ‘no portion’ FOREVER ‘in anything… done under the sun’?

3. What about Ecclesiastes 9:2 that proclaims the righteous and the wicked have the same end?
Do you regard these Scriptures as accurate depictions of life and eternity?

Is Solomon not merely portraying a humanistic worldview, not an eternal perspective of life and death?

I wouldn't comment on your response but rather either hear your next question or present another question; Whichever is ok with you.



YOUR RESPONSE!




Would you want to ask another question or do I proceed with mine?


Please i'm in the office that's why it's taking longer!
¤At Matthew 10:28 Jesus is simply saying only God can determine if man will be resurrected or not!
¤Solomon is talking about how doomed all Adam's children are with what we inherited from Adam DEATH!
¤Good or bad people are all going to die with NO hope.
It is the undeserved kindness of God[grace through Jesus' ransom sacrifice] that raised our hope of a resurrection! 1Peter 1:3
That was why Matthew could say that when Jesus said 'it is finished' and last breath of Jesus on the stake, he saw [like a vision] that all those in God's memory book are raised from the dead! Matthew 27:51-53
Because it was the death of Jesus that made our hope of everlasting life possible, but before then NO human whether good or bad has any hope!
So Solomon was right since none of us whether good or bad could change God's mind on the curse of death pronounced on Adam and all his descendants! Psalms 49:7-10
ONLY the sacrifice of a perfect man equal to Adam can make that possible! 1Corinthians 15:45

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 2:25pm On May 14
Maximus69:
Please i'm in the office that's why it's taking longer!
¤At Matthew 10:28 Jesus is simply saying only God can determine if man will be resurrected or not!
¤Solomon is talking about how doomed all Adam's children are with what we inherited from Adam DEATH!
¤Good or bad people are all going to die with NO hope.
It is the undeserved kindness of God[grace through Jesus' ransom sacrifice] that raised our hope of a resurrection! 1Peter 1:3
That was why Matthew could say that when Jesus said 'it is finished' and last breath of Jesus on the stake, he saw [like a vision] that all those in God's memory book are raised from the dead! Matthew 27:51-53
Because it was the death of Jesus that made our hope of everlasting life possible, but before then NO human whether good or bad has any hope!
So Solomon was right since none of us whether good or bad could change God's mind on the curse of death pronounced on Adam and all his descendants! Psalms 49:7-10
ONLY the sacrifice of a perfect man equal to Adam can make that possible! 1Corinthians 15:45
I wished you Separated your answers per questionasked

Will you want to ask the next question or you want me to post my other questions?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 2:35pm On May 14
shadeyinka:

I wished you Separated your answers per questionasked

Will you want to ask the next question or you want me to post my other questions?
That is the more reason i said 'one question at a time!'
You may ask your question but please ONE AT A TIME!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 3:15pm On May 14
Maximus69:
That is the more reason i said 'one question at a time!'
You may ask your question but please ONE AT A TIME!
My next set of questions will be about Divinity of Christ.
There are four Questions but I shall post them one at a time.


FIRST QUESTION!
1. “If Jehovah created Jesus and used Jesus to create everything else, can you please explain how could Jehovah say:

Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?

Isa 44:24:
"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

Mark the words: Alone, By Myself, Make all things!

it doesn't look like Jesus was with Jehovah as a "co-creator" of everything.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 3:28pm On May 14
shadeyinka:

My next set of questions will be about Divinity of Christ.
There are four Questions but I shall post them one at a time.
FIRST QUESTION!
1. “If Jehovah created Jesus and used Jesus to create everything else, can you please explain how could Jehovah say:

Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?

Isa 44:24:
"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
Mark the words: Alone, By Myself, Make all things!
it doesn't look like Jesus was with Jehovah as a "co-creator" of everything.
Jesus himself answered that question at John 8:28 when he said 'i do nothing of my own initiative but just as the father TAUGHT me i speak'
It was Jehovah's instructions that Jesus always stick to so that makes it evident that everything the idea, design and all others are coming from the one given orders to the master worker beside him! Proverbs 8:30 compared to Genesis 1:3-31
Notice that at Genesis chp 1 someone is giving the orders but it is at Proverbs 8 that we now know that there is someone working beside him.
A CEO can say i build my business empire all alone but that doesn't implies that he never made use of any craftman!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 4:06pm On May 14
undecided
Maximus69:
Jesus himself answered that question at John 8:28 when he said 'i do nothing of my own initiative but just as the father TAUGHT me i speak'
It was Jehovah's instructions that Jesus always stick to so that makes it evident that everything the idea, design and all others are coming from the one given orders to the master worker beside him! Proverbs 8:30 compared to Genesis 1:3-31
Notice that at Genesis chp 1 someone is giving the orders but it is at Proverbs 8 that we now know that there is someone working beside him.
A CEO can say i build my business empire all alone but that doesn't implies that he never made use of any craftman!
You have a good point @bolded.
However, there are some keywords which show the exclusiveness of Jehovah creating everything by Himself.

Who was with Me!
OR
Alone!



Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?

The Question who was with Me? Excludes everyone else.

I built this business by myself is valid
However
I built this business alone is very very specific. Even Dangote cannot say that.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 5:16pm On May 14
shadeyinka:
undecided
You have a good point @bolded.
However, there are some keywords which show the exclusiveness of Jehovah creating everything by Himself.

Who was with Me!
OR
Alone!

Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?
The Question who was with Me? Excludes everyone else.
I built this business by myself is valid
However
I built this business alone is very very specific. Even Dangote cannot say that.
Jehovah spoke as the BRAIN behind everything!
Well i was a military intelligent officer and due to the nature of my job i've seen, met, spoken and worked with fierce dictators in different countries.
I have heard one of them say 'i build this country ALL ALONE nobody comes hear to rule in my stead not even America'
Dangote is not the brain behind the investment you're seeing Sir, top politicians who embezzled money from different countries are behind that investment but Aliko Dangote is used as their face while they remain behind the scene!
Jehovah is not a businessman but the King of eternity who often give his intelligent creatures like angels and humans chances to participate in building gigantic and beautiful edifice but as the BRAIN behind all, everything is to his glory!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 9:07pm On May 14
Maximus69:
Jehovah spoke as the BRAIN behind everything!
Well i was a military intelligent officer and due to the nature of my job i've seen, met, spoken and worked with fierce dictators in different countries.
I have heard one of them say 'i build this country ALL ALONE nobody comes hear to rule in my stead not even America'
Dangote is not the brain behind the investment you're seeing Sir, top politicians who embezzled money from different countries are behind that investment but Aliko Dangote is used as their face while they remain behind the scene!
Jehovah is not a businessman but the King of eternity who often give his intelligent creatures like angels and humans chances to participate in building gigantic and beautiful edifice but as the BRAIN behind all, everything is to his glory!
I certainly do not agree with you on this but I will let it rest. JWs are prone to literally interpreting some scriptural texts whenever it suits them and turning blind eyes to others whenever it doesn't go along with their doctrines.


MY SECOND QUESTION!

2. Jehovah proclaims at
Isaiah 43:10:
‘10 “You are my witnesses,”+ declares Jehovah,
“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,+
So that you may know and have faith in me*
And understand that I am the same One.+
Before me no God was formed,
And after me there has been none.+
11 I—I am Jehovah,+ and besides me there is no savior.”+

Isa 43:10-11:
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed,
neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior."

If no ‘god’ was ‘formed’ after Jehovah, how could Jesus be ‘a god’ created ‘after’ Jehovah?

If no saviour after’ Jehovah how could Jesus be a saviour?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:09pm On May 14
shadeyinka:

I certainly do not agree with you on this but I will let it rest. JWs are prone to literally interpreting some scriptural texts whenever it suits them and turning blind eyes to others whenever it doesn't go along with their doctrines.
MY SECOND QUESTION!
2. Jehovah proclaims at
Isaiah 43:10:
‘10 “You are my witnesses,”+ declares Jehovah,
“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,+
So that you may know and have faith in me*
And understand that I am the same One.+
Before me no God was formed,
And after me there has been none.+
11 I—I am Jehovah,+ and besides me there is no savior.”+

Isa 43:10-11:
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed,
neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior."
If no ‘god’ was ‘formed’ after Jehovah, how could Jesus be ‘a god’ created ‘after’ Jehovah?
If no saviour after’ Jehovah how could Jesus be a saviour?

We agreed not to bring in the name of any religious organization with regards to disapproving one another's conclusion !
Our discussion supposed to be based on presentation of what you and i believe without attachment to any religious organization.
If you did not claim to belong to any existing religious group even though we both know that there is fierce contradictions amongst the so called churches, that means you want our discussion to remain strictly exclusive of any religion. Please do not mention any religious organization with regards to my beliefs anymore, just take me as you expect me to take you [independent believer]
Jehovah is GOD, Moses WAS GOD and Jesus WAS GOD. All of them were referred to as GOD in the Bible but two of the GODS revered one and depended on him for their salvation.
Though Moses saved the Israelites from Egyptian slavery and Jesus saved mankind from Adamic sin,but Jehovah saved both Moses and Jesus during times of distress therefore the only saviour who needs no one to save him is Jehovah!
It's not compulsory we agree on the presentations, just for each of us to know that we both believe the Bible but from divers perspectives and mindsets.
If i meet people in my neighbourhood, it is the same beliefs i will present and if my listener finds it appealing he/she will BEG to know more, that is how i've become a preacher and teacher of God's word.
But in case the listener doesn't find my presentation appealing, i don't get angry or remorseful towards my audience i'll just switch to the next person because it is not my word rather it's the word of someone greater than me so why would i agitate or annoyed with the one rejecting the message of the one who sent me?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:07pm On May 14
Maximus69:
We agreed not to bring in the name of any religious organization with regards to disapproving one another's conclusion !
Our discussion supposed to be based on presentation of what you and i believe without attachment to any religious organization.
If you did not claim to belong to any existing religious group even though we both know that there is fierce contradictions amongst the so called churches, that means you want our discussion to remain strictly exclusive of any religion. Please do not mention any religious organization with regards to my beliefs anymore, just take me as you expect me to take you [independent believer]
Jehovah is GOD, Moses WAS GOD and Jesus WAS GOD. All of them were referred to as GOD in the Bible but two of the GODS revered one and depended on him for their salvation.
Though Moses saved the Israelites from Egyptian slavery and Jesus saved mankind from Adamic sin,but Jehovah saved both Moses and Jesus during times of distress therefore the only saviour who needs no one to save him is Jehovah!
It's not compulsory we agree on the presentations, just for each of us to know that we both believe the Bible but from divers perspectives and mindsets.
If i meet people in my neighbourhood, it is the same beliefs i will present and if my listener finds it appealing he/she will BEG to know more, that is how i've become a preacher and teacher of God's word.
But in case the listener doesn't find my presentation appealing, i don't get angry or remorseful towards my audience i'll just switch to the next person because it is not my word rather it's the word of someone greater than me so why would i agitate or annoyed with the one rejecting the message of the one who sent me?

I'm sorry I mentioned JW in my presentation. I was consciously avoiding the word watchtower. I am sorry once again. I probably got carried away. Hope I'm forgiven?


shadeyinka:


2. Jehovah proclaims at
Isaiah 43:10:
‘10 “You are my witnesses,”+ declares Jehovah,
“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen,+
So that you may know and have faith in me*
And understand that I am the same One.+
Before me no God was formed,
And after me there has been none.+
11 I—I am Jehovah,+ and besides me there is no savior.”+


If no ‘god’ was ‘formed’ after Jehovah, how could Jesus be ‘a god’ created ‘after’ Jehovah?

Whether you call Moses, Jesus or anyone else a God or GOD, the statement of Jehovah is that
1. Before Him no God was formed
2. After Him, there has been none

From the context, no God was formed before Jehovah and no God was formed after Him.

Then, could it be that Jesus couldn't have been another God/god created after Jehovah?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 11:23pm On May 14
shadeyinka:


I'm sorry I mentioned JW in my presentation. I was consciously avoiding the word watchtower. I am sorry once again. I probably got carried away. Hope I'm forgiven?
Whether you call Moses, Jesus or anyone else a God or GOD, the statement of Jehovah is that
1. Before Him no God was formed
2. After Him, there has been none
From the context, no God was formed before Jehovah and no God was formed after Him.
Then, could it be that Jesus couldn't have been another God/god created after Jehovah?
Not offended!
It is the same Bible that called Jehovah, Moses and Jesus 'God'
Proverbs 8:22-30 clearly explains that there is a MASTER CRAFTMAN who worked with God from the beginning,this master craftman was PRODUCED, John identified that person as the word[Jesus] and said the word served as God just like Moses whom Jehovah himself said about 'i have made you GOD to Pharaoh and Aaron your brother will be your prophet' Exodus 7:1
So what Jehovah means at Isaiah 43 is that, if any God is known amongst humans, they're all beneath him whether Moses,Jesus or any other God known on the surface of this planet! Psalms 82:1
So it is not Maximus who wrote Exodus 7:1 but Moses himself and it is part of God's inspired word that is beneficial for teaching and setting matters like this straight! 2Timothy 3:16

1 Like

Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:46pm On May 14
Maximus69:
Not offended!
It is the same Bible that called Jehovah, Moses and Jesus 'God'
Proverbs 8:22-30 clearly explains that there is a MASTER CRAFTMAN who worked with God from the beginning,this master craftman was PRODUCED, John identified that person as the word[Jesus] and said the word served as God just like Moses whom Jehovah himself said about 'i have made you GOD to Pharaoh and Aaron your brother will be your prophet' Exodus 7:1
So what Jehovah means at Isaiah 43 is that, if any God is known amongst humans, they're all beneath him whether Moses,Jesus or any other God known on the surface of this planet! Psalms 82:1
So it is not Maximus who wrote Exodus 7:1 but Moses himself and it is part of God's inspired word that is beneficial for teaching and setting matters like this straight! 2Timothy 3:16

Final question on the Divinity of Christ:


No one who has a beginning can take up the title everlasting!
Like the righteous have beginnings but no end hence they can't be referred to as everlasting! Everlasting means extending beyond time (before and after time).

If Jesus was created, then he is not from eternity as he has a beginning.


1. Why does the Bible call Jesus the ‘everlasting Father’ at Isaiah 9:6, if Jesus is not from ‘everlasting’?

2. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, who then is Jehovah?



After your response, you may post your question and after that, I have one last question for you.

Shalom







A Point of Correction please:
Moses was never called God:


Exo 7:1: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Exo 7:1
Jehovah then said to Moses: “See, I have made you like God * to Pharʹaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.


Acts 7:40: "Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him."

I believe you understand what a figure of speech is. Moreover, there is a difference between the true God which you insinuate Moses was and thousands of false God. Please correct this notion!

1Cor 8:4-6
: "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one . For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

From this scripture, even Jesus couldn't have been "another god" (for no other god either in heaven or on earth)


Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 7:07am On May 15
shadeyinka:


Final question on the Divinity of Christ:


No one who has a beginning can take up the title everlasting!
Like the righteous have beginnings but no end hence they can't be referred to as everlasting! Everlasting means extending beyond time (before and after time).

If Jesus was created, then he is not from eternity as he has a beginning.


1. Why does the Bible call Jesus the ‘everlasting Father’ at Isaiah 9:6, if Jesus is not from ‘everlasting’?

2. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, who then is Jehovah?



After your response, you may post your question and after that, I have one last question for you.

Shalom







A Point of Correction please:
Moses was never called God:


Exo 7:1: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Exo 7:1
Jehovah then said to Moses: “See, I have made you like God * to Pharʹaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.


Acts 7:40: "Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him."

I believe you understand what a figure of speech is. Moreover, there is a difference between the true God which you insinuate Moses was and thousands of false God. Please correct this notion!

1Cor 8:4-6
: "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one . For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

From this scripture, even Jesus couldn't have been "another god" (for no other god either in heaven or on earth)


Your going out of bounds according to our agreement! Words like 'you're wrong' 'point of correction' or 'correct the notion' shouldn't come in because each person have developed what he believes now through persistent reading, studying, meditating and praying on what is WRITTEN.
Moreover both of us believe in the words found in the Bible and in the name of God's only begotten son, so there is no reason pestering each other to agree with our PERSONAL resolve on what is found in the scriptures!
For your information that is what has led so called believers to arguments, abuses, insults, curses and endless name calling shamelessly before those who abhor God's word[atheists]
Now to address your question!
Notice that Isaiah said Jesus will bear several titles due to his life saving assignment, so it's not just one title but several titles that needed to be explained!
Adam[our first human father] was created with the ability to live forever,he possessed us through the usual reproduction process but before we were born the venom of the forbidden fruit shortened his life as he get week, sickly, old and finally died. Thus we inherited sin and death from our NATURAL father!
Jesus who paid for our sins now became our new father because he bought us with his precious blood. He didn't just give birth to his own children through the natural process but we became his children by FAITH.
Adam lasted for just 930 years, but nothing can kill our new father [Jesus] because he always obey his heavenly father therefore nothing could lead to his death. Thus Jesus by faith became our EVERLASTING FATHER!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 7:16am On May 15
Maximus69:
Your going out of bounds according to our agreement! Words like 'you're wrong' 'point of correction' or 'correct the notion' shouldn't come in because each person have developed what he believes now through persistent reading, studying, meditating and praying on what is WRITTEN.
Moreover both of us believe in the words found in the Bible and in the name of God's only begotten son, so there is no reason pestering each other to agree with our PERSONAL resolve on what is found in the scriptures!
For your information that is what has led so called believers to arguments, abuses, insults, curses and endless name calling shamelessly before those who abhor God's word[atheists]
Now to address your question!
Notice that Isaiah said Jesus will bear several titles due to his life saving assignment, so it's not just one title but several titles that needed to be explained!
Adam[our first human father] was created with the ability to live forever,he possessed us through the usual reproduction process but before we were born the venom of the forbidden fruit shortened his life as he get week, sickly, old and finally died. Thus we inherited sin and death from our NATURAL father!
Jesus who paid for our sins now became our new father because he bought us with his precious blood. He didn't just give birth to his own children through the natural process but we became his children by FAITH.
Adam lasted for just 930 years, but nothing can kill our new father [Jesus] because he always obey his heavenly father therefore nothing could lead to his death. Thus Jesus by faith became our EVERLASTING FATHER!
In other words "Everlasting Father" is just a Title!
But Jehovah is "The Everlasting Father"!

OK.

My next sets of Questions would be short scriptures and your understanding.

1Pet 3:18-20:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


1Pet 4:6:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

The gospel preached to unconscious persons?


If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead"?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 7:30am On May 15
Your second question!
Who then is Jehovah?
According to the scriptures, Jehovah is the Almighty or the most high spirit who keeps pronouncing his name for all his creations to know him! Exodus 6:2,3 Psalm 83:18
When Jesus was on earth, many of his wonderful works baffles his audience to the extent that he had to keep impressing in their minds that he is not the Almighty! John 11:41-42
In many cases Michael [the arch angel] often represent Jehovah with materialised visible body and speaking to humans. Genesis 18:20-33 compared to Exodus 33:20
Notice that Moses recorded both accounts while he recorded that Jehovah sat physically and spoke with Abraham, he also recorded that no man can see Jehovah and keep living!
Well it is because Michael always stand before humans as Jehovah's representative! Daniel 12:1
At Exodus 3:2-7 Jehovah's angel is the one that appeared to Moses as a burning bush but the rest of that account says it is Jehovah that is talking to Moses from inside the bush! undecided
In a nutshell Jehovah is the Almight God who often delegate his loyal ones to go and proclaim his name before those who don't acknowledge him. While we can see his representatives like Michael[angel] and Moses[human] whom he made like God to act in his stead, NO MAN CAN SEE JEHOVAH!
Jesus[Michael] promised that the born agains will be transformed and given spirit bodies during their own resurrection and they will have the opportunity to see JEHOVAH when they get to heaven [his place]. Psalms 115:16
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 7:49am On May 15
Maximus69:
Your second question!
Who then is Jehovah?
According to the scriptures, Jehovah is the Almighty or the most high spirit who keeps pronouncing his name for all his creations to know him! Exodus 6:2,3 Psalm 83:18
When Jesus was on earth, many of his wonderful works baffles his audience to the extent that he had to keep impressing in their minds that he is not the Almighty! John 11:41-42
In many cases Michael [the arch angel] often represent Jehovah with materialised visible body and speaking to humans. Genesis 18:20-33 compared to Exodus 33:20
Notice that Moses recorded both accounts while he recorded that Jehovah sat physically and spoke with Abraham, he also recorded that no man can see Jehovah and keep living!
Well it is because Michael always stand before humans as Jehovah's representative! Daniel 12:1
At Exodus 3:2-7 Jehovah's angel is the one that appeared to Moses as a burning bush but the rest of that account says it is Jehovah that is talking to Moses from inside the bush! undecided
In a nutshell Jehovah is the Almight God who often delegate his loyal ones to go and proclaim his name before those who don't acknowledge him. While we can see his representatives like Michael[angel] and Moses[human] whom he made like God to act in his stead, NO MAN CAN SEE JEHOVAH!
Jesus[Michael] promised that the born agains will be transformed and given spirit bodies during their own resurrection and they will have the opportunity to see JEHOVAH when they get to heaven [his place]. Psalms 115:16


If I understood you, Jesus is angel Michael.

I will ask you a question about this after you answer the scriptural understanding question before this post.

I guess this answers the second question of the post:

shadeyinka:


Final question on the Divinity of Christ:


No one who has a beginning can take up the title everlasting!
Like the righteous have beginnings but no end hence they can't be referred to as everlasting! Everlasting means extending beyond time (before and after time).

If Jesus was created, then he is not from eternity as he has a beginning.


1. Why does the Bible call Jesus the ‘everlasting Father’ at Isaiah 9:6, if Jesus is not from ‘everlasting’?

2. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, who then is Jehovah?



After your response, you may post your question and after that, I have one last question for you.

Shalom







Actually Question 1,and 2 go together. Thanks

[color=#990000]

It will do us both good if you quoted from the reference post before responding to Questions.

I will repost my last post to keep us back on track
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 8:08am On May 15
REPOSTED QUESTION

In other words "Everlasting Father" is just a Title!
But Jehovah is "The Everlasting Father"!

OK.

My next sets of Questions would be short scriptures and your understanding.

1Pet 3:18-20:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


1Pet 4:6:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

The gospel preached to unconscious persons?


If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead"?
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 8:13am On May 15
shadeyinka:

In other words "Everlasting Father" is just a Title!
But Jehovah is "The Everlasting Father"!
OK.
My next sets of Questions would be short scriptures and your understanding.

1Pet 3:18-20:
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
1Pet 4:6:
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
The gospel preached to unconscious persons?
If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison" be preached to by Christ after his death and how could the good news be "declared also to the dead"?
Yes Jehovah also bear titles that are used in the Bible for his creatures, for instance the title 'Lord' was often used both for Jehovah and humans! Genesis 18:12, 1Samuel 25:29,
So Jehovah who happens to be the real father of both Jesus[the first spirit creature] and Adam[the first human] could also be referred to as the everlasting father!
Now to address your question!
Preaching means pleading or declaring the words of God to those who are ignorant of it[in the Bible such ignorant ones are referred to as being in darkness] Matthew 4:16
The dead are conscious of nothing at all, so there is no way anyone could preach to them. Jesus made the falling angels know that the time of their destruction is getting closer when he finished the assignment of reconciliation between God and man. His death and resurrection is a clear evidence that nothing can stop faithful humans[whom the demons wants to hinder from everlasting life] from getting their life back! So in other words Jesus could be said to have preached unto those fallen angels!
As for the dead whom he preached to, Jesus himself made us to understand that since we're all born in sin we're like walking corps before God because death is the wages of sin and we're all sinners. Luke 9:60 Romans 3:23,6:23
That is why at Revelations 20:5 Jesus revealed to John that whoever is NOT one of the born agains [who have their part in the first resurrection] still remains like dead before Jehovah until their final test which will lead to the destruction of Satan and countless humans who will still be deceived by Satan! Revelations 20:7-15
After the resurrection of the dead, Christians living on earth will start teaching all resurrected ignorant ones about all that Jesus[Christ] taught us. It will be as if they are judged by what is WRITTEN in the Bible about the messiah! Revelations 20:11-13
By that time what Christians are doing today will be repeated but under a calm and controlled situation as Satan and his demons[who are deceiving people] will be prevented from having any dealings with humans! Revelations 20:1-3
After all the preaching and teaching program all the earth will be filled with knowledge of God,so Satan will be released for the final test and whoever fails to stand firm in the teachings of Jesus as his role model will be destroyed along with Satan, they have NO record to be remembered for so their names can't be found in God's memory book! Revelations 20:15
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 10:00am On May 15
Maximus69:
Yes Jehovah also bear titles that are used in the Bible for his creatures, for instance the title 'Lord' was often used both for Jehovah and humans! Genesis 18:12, 1Samuel 25:29,
So Jehovah who happens to be the real father of both Jesus[the first spirit creature] and Adam[the first human] could also be referred to as the everlasting father!
Now to address your question!
Preaching means pleading or declaring the words of God to those who are ignorant of it[in the Bible such ignorant ones are referred to as being in darkness] Matthew 4:16
The dead are conscious of nothing at all, so there is no way anyone could preach to them. Jesus made the falling angels know that the time of their destruction is getting closer when he finished the assignment of reconciliation between God and man. His death and resurrection is a clear evidence that nothing can stop faithful humans[whom the demons wants to hinder from everlasting life] from getting their life back! So in other words Jesus could be said to have preached unto those fallen angels!
As for the dead whom he preached to, Jesus himself made us to understand that since we're all born in sin we're like walking corps before God because death is the wages of sin and we're all sinners. Luke 9:60 Romans 3:23,6:23
That is why at Revelations 20:5 Jesus revealed to John that a is NOT one of the born agains [who have their part in the first resurrection] still remains like dead before Jehovah until their final test which will lead to the destruction of Satan and countless humans who will still be deceived by Satan! Revelations 20:7-15
After the resurrection of the dead, Christians living on earth will start teaching all resurrected ignorant ones about all that Jesus[Christ] taught us. It will be as if they are judged by what is WRITTEN in the Bible about the messiah! Revelations 20:11-13
By that time what Christians are doing today will be repeated but under a calm and controlled situation as Satan and his demons[who are deceiving people] will be prevented from having any dealings with humans! Revelations 20:1-3
After all the preaching and teaching program all the earth will be filled with knowledge of God,so Satan will be released for the final test and whoever fails to stand firm in the teachings of Jesus as his role model will be destroyed along with Satan, they have NO record to be remembered for so their names can't be found in God's memory book! Revelations 20:15

Isn't 1Pt 3:8-20 refering almost specifically to those who died in the time of Noah?
Isn't the dead spoken of in 1Pt4:6 literally dead?

Why then the reference to :
1. When the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah
2. Wherein eight people (out of millions?) were saved..


Apply the same rule to the scripture when the bible says:

1Ths 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Using your rule of interpretation we'll arrive at:


Your explanation makes no sense!


ANYWAYS, NEXT QUESTION!


LAKE OF FIRE
Rev 20:10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Rev 19:20:
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."


If the devil, the beast and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, what happens to everyone else whose name is not found in the book of life?


Please note the scripture:

John 5:29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Janosky: 10:21am On May 15
shadeyinka:
undecided
You have a good point @bolded.
However, there are some keywords which show the exclusiveness of Jehovah creating everything by Himself.

Who was with Me!
OR
Alone!



Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?

The Question who was with Me? Excludes everyone else.

I built this business by myself is valid
However
I built this business alone is very very specific.


None of us existed when Jehovah created heaven and earth. We don't have ALL minute details of what occurred.
It's not about JWs sticking to scriptures that suit them, as you claimed.
The point is sticking with what the scriptures revealed to us.
In view of Prov 8:22-30, John 1:1-3 & Heb1:1-2, Jesus the son "through whom Jehovah made the universe"
*Jehovah's expression "who was with me?" is understood from the perspective of God taking the glory for His works. Heb3:4.
Since Jesus acknowledged his Father as the Creator, Christ accorded the glory to his Father he called " Lord of heaven and earth" Matt 11:25, (Eph3:14,15).
To cling to "who was with me?" statement is insignificant.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:31am On May 15
shadeyinka:

Isn't 1Pt 3:8-20 refering almost specifically to those who died in the time of Noah?
Isn't the dead spoken of in 1Pt4:6 literally dead?
Why then the reference to :
1. When the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah
2. Wherein eight people (out of millions?) were saved..
Apply the same rule to the scripture when the bible says:
1Ths 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Using your rule of interpretation we'll arrive at:
Your explanation makes no sense!
ANYWAYS, NEXT QUESTION!
LAKE OF FIRE
Rev 20:10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Rev 19:20:
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
If the devil, the beast and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, what happens to everyone else whose name is not found in the book of life?

Please note the scripture:
John 5:29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Hmmm,
You still display the same attribute we're trying to avoid here!
Perhaps i should make something clear to you at this point. God's word in itself exerts power and is sharper than anything you can think of, it penetrates into the hearts to make conscientious individuals reason and make them know whenever they're dealing with someone having more spiritual insight than them! Hebrew 4:12
So there is no need saying 'your explanation makes no sense' that is intolerance and definitely not a fruit of God's holy spirit which helps faithful ones have SELF~CONTROL! Galatians 5:22-23
All you need is make your presentations and leave your audience to meditate on what you've said. Every human have a heart and this helps them to have a rethink on whatever they've heard. That is why Jesus distinguished PREACHING and TEACHING.
PREACHING is the act of presenting what you have, and if your listener finds it appealing they will plead with you to hear more from you, this is what opens the way for TEACHING! John 4:7-41
Please notice that the Samaritans disagrees with the beliefs of Jews but after Jesus' few presentations they begged him to stay longer and he TAUGHT them!
So true Christians need not worry over someone who takes the pain to read, study, meditate and pray on what they found in the Bible, if such a person is disposed for everlasting life they will still humble themselves to learn from the person who knows better than them! Remember there are billions who ignores the Bible completely, if you're angry with those who have taken their time to consider God's word, what will you do to those who mocks or ridicules it? undecided
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 10:36am On May 15
Your last question is not clear please make it simple and straightforward. ONE AT A TIME!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 11:07am On May 15
Maximus69:
Your last question is not clear please make it simple and straightforward. ONE AT A TIME!
Your explanation was what I commented upon as making no sense NOT your personality!


QUESTION REPOSTED
[author=shadeyinka post=78405555]



ANYWAYS, NEXT QUESTION!


LAKE OF FIRE
From the following scriptures:
Rev 20:10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Rev 19:20:
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."




If the devil, the beast and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, what happens to everyone else whose name is not found in the book of life?


Please note the scripture:

John 5:29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."[/quotte]

The Question Rephrased:
The bible clearly states that the devil , the beast and the false prophet are tormented forever and ever.

The Bible clearly states that anyone whose name is NOT in the book of life is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Are those people annihilated or tormented with the devil?
Recall that there is certainly a resurection of the wicked as well as the resurection of the righteous.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by alBHAGDADI: 11:27am On May 15
shadeyinka:

It was just a question!
The Question: Are you Born Again could only have three answers;
Yes I am!
No I am not!
I am not sure!

I guess your understanding of who born again or how to be born again is incomplete.

Jesus Himself explained what this concept is:


John 3:3:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I think I have discussed the kingdom of God in earlier post. A person who is Not born again cannot even see the Kingdom of God lest even partake in it.

Jesus's explanation:

John 3:14-16:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up : That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The word whosoever is extremely important! Whosoever means ANYONE who believes!

Num 21:8-9:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

Every One: Mean what it says not 144,000. Or what do you think?

The meaning: ANYONE who believes in God's solution to the problem of the poison of SIN in his life should look at "Gods Solution" and because "He Believes" shall be saved.

Luk 11:11-13:

"If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

The Holy Spirit is given to them who ASK! What do you think?

The Holy Spirit is the SEAL of those who are Born Again (saved)

Eph 4:30:
"And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Who do you think the scriptures is referring to as SEALED unto the day of redemption?

Eph 1:13
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise

John 6:27
"Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed

The bible says we are not even saved by works of righteousness. It is by grace we've been saved through faith...

Eph 2:8-10:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

The quoted verses in 1Cor 11:27-30 is dealing with those who eat the Lord's supper without discerning the body of Christ (eating casually/with no reverence). Please read the whole chapter.

1Cor 11:27-29:
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."

Is that why you (maximus) don't take the Holy Communion?

I won't refer to your organisation again. But it's not that I don't know that your doctrine is that passed down from your organisation.


So, who are those who could be Born Again and sealed with the Holy Spirit? Is it everyone /anyone or a select group

Your comments on this before I ask the next question

This is what I call killer moves.

You just finished the guy.

He's now trying to make it seem as if his stance is not the Jehovah's witnesses stance

grin
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by alBHAGDADI: 11:37am On May 15
shadeyinka:

I didn't know the Questions are to come sequentially. Because I still have quite a number of questions. However, my thoughts before you ask your own questions

Could Jesus have been the first person to be Born again?
NO!
From the definition of Christ, unless a man is Born Again, he cannot see the kingdom of God BUT
1. Christ Jesus was from Heaven before His ministry
John 3:13:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
If Jesus came down from heaven, He didn't need to be Born Again to see the kingdom
John 6:38:
"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
1Cor 15:47:
"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

Hence Jesus didn't need to be born again
2. Salvation was compared to Moses lifting up the Serpent (Sacrifice of Christ) in the wilderness.
John 3:14:
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

No one could be born again until the Crucifixion of Christ. Hence Christ couldn't have been the first born again

3. If Jesus is the WORD OF GOD, how could he be born again by Himself at the point of Baptism?


1Pet 1:23: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

Before Jesus baptism, he was called the Son of God.
Luk 1:32:
"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"


OK! You are free to ask your questions! I'll be waiting.



Another killer move. Shadeyinka, I never knew you were this good. Wow! You keep slamming that guy with the word of God while he keeps regurgitating what his organization told him.

He claims the Baptism of Jesus was when Jesus got born again. What a funny assertion. Imagine the same Jesus that came to make us born again. now had to be born again first. grin

Even Jesus didn't really need to be baptized but he had to just to fulfill all righteousness. John the Baptist recognized the power of Jesus that's why he said Jesus should be baptizing him, not him baptizing Jesus.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by alBHAGDADI: 11:40am On May 15
Maximus69:
Hmmm, It's well.
Jesus came from heaven yet he insisted that John baptise him because that is the first step of becoming a born again and he couldn't have been baptised by one of his own followers! Matthew 3:13-15
Later Jesus' followers started baptising people as the first step of becoming a born again! John 3:25-30
Jesus happens to be the first person to be baptised both by water and spirit![John 3:3]
He was confirmed on that day of his baptism as God spoke from heaven![Matthew 3:17]
He started his ministry as the first fruit of that kingdom on that very day![Matthew 4:14-15]
He always refer to himself as the 'son of man' since he lived in the flesh like us.
Heaven totally differs from the Kingdom of heaven, because the government comprises of Jesus and the 144,000! Revelation 14:1
Jesus always refer to the born agains as 'my brothers' because all of them were born by water and spirit just like himself! Matthew 25:40
It's only the born agains that can approach God and call out 'Abba father'! Mark 14:36 compared to Galatians 4:6
So that's why i concluded that he is the firstborn of those who are born by the spirit with heavenly hope and the covenant for a heavenly kingdom[government] since the angels aren't going to be part of that government except Jesus and his born again brothers!

Baptism is not the first step of becoming born again. You don't even need baptism to be born again. Many are born again and are not baptized.

What is needed is simple believe in Jesus and you are born again.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 12:02pm On May 15
shadeyinka:

Your explanation was what I commented upon as making no sense NOT your personality!


QUESTION REPOSTED
[author=shadeyinka post=78405555]



ANYWAYS, NEXT QUESTION!


LAKE OF FIRE
From the following scriptures:
Rev 20:10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Rev 19:20:
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."




If the devil, the beast and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, what happens to everyone else whose name is not found in the book of life?


Please note the scripture:

John 5:29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."[/quotte]

The Question Rephrased:
The bible clearly states that the devil , the beast and the false prophet are tormented forever and ever.

The Bible clearly states that anyone whose name is NOT in the book of life is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Are those people annihilated or tormented with the devil?
Recall that there is certainly a resurection of the wicked as well as the resurection of the righteous.
It is UNCHRISTIAN to wash away or hurriedly refute the explanation of any person you can notice that is having time to consider spiritual things like God's inspired word! Matthew 12:20
Jesus will NEVER say anything against the idea of person showing interest in God's word! You'll notice that during the Conversation with the Samaritan woman, Jesus NEVER say 'your views are incorrect'! It is after the woman have sensed that Jesus knows more that she asked a question that's been generating a long time strife between the Samaritans and the Jews! John 4:19-22
So let's continue to show deep respect each others beliefs! 1Peter 3:15 smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by Maximus69: 12:21pm On May 15
Answer to your question!
Jehovah never had the intention to hold people in pains because of his holiness, he will only exterminate those who will not allow his will to take place. It is humans who feels that death is not OK as a punishment because they reason that everyone [both good and bad] dies so they prefer tormenting their enemies without allowing them to escape through death! Jeremiah 7:31
Jesus is the person revealing to John all that his father told him when he got back to heaven. Jesus is known for using parables and symbolic means in his teachings. So the Bible book of Revelations wasn't taken literally but true Christians study [Observe] each symbol to grasp the sacred secrets the Amen[Jesus] is passing to them! Revelations 1:1-3, 3:14
If you don't agree that the book is not to be taken literally then it will be difficult to share my beliefs with you on the symbols!
Please let's leave this side of the Bible for now but if you prefer that we deal with it to see if it's literal or not, we can proceed to ascertain that! smiley
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 12:41pm On May 15
Maximus69:
It is UNCHRISTIAN to wash away or hurriedly refute the explanation of any person you can notice that is having time to consider spiritual things like God's inspired word! Matthew 12:20
Jesus will NEVER say anything against the idea of person showing interest in God's word! You'll notice that during the Conversation with the Samaritan woman, Jesus NEVER say 'your views are incorrect'! It is after the woman have sensed that Jesus knows more that she asked a question that's been generating a long time strife between the Samaritans and the Jews! John 4:19-22
So let's continue to show deep respect each others beliefs! 1Peter 3:15 smiley
Silence!
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by shadeyinka(m): 12:52pm On May 15
Maximus69:
Answer to your question!
Jehovah never had the intention to hold people in pains because of his holiness, he will only exterminate those who will not allow his will to take place. It is humans who feels that death is not OK as a punishment because they reason that everyone [both good and bad] dies so they prefer tormenting their enemies without allowing them to escape through death! Jeremiah 7:31
Jesus is the person revealing to John all that his father told him when he got back to heaven. Jesus is known for using parables and symbolic means in his teachings. So the Bible book of Revelations wasn't taken literally but true Christians study [Observe] each symbol to grasp the sacred secrets the Amen[Jesus] is passing to them! Revelations 1:1-3, 3:14
If you don't agree that the book is not to be taken literally then it will be difficult to share my beliefs with you on the symbols!
Please let's leave this side of the Bible for now but if you prefer that we deal with it to see if it's literal or not, we can proceed to ascertain that! smiley
I am not sure you spoke directly about the texts I presented



Of I understand you well, the Book of Revelation shouldn't be taken literally. But didn't the book of Revelation start with the letters to the seven churches? Those were real churches aren't they?



Let me put the question here in perspective of your answers:

shadeyinka:

Your explanation was what I commented upon as making no sense NOT your personality!


QUESTION REPOSTED
[author=shadeyinka post=78405555]



ANYWAYS, NEXT QUESTION!


LAKE OF FIRE
From the following scriptures:
Rev 20:10:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
Rev 19:20:
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Rev 20:14:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."




If the devil, the beast and false prophet are tormented for ever and ever in the lake of fire, what happens to everyone else whose name is not found in the book of life?


Please note the scripture:

John 5:29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."[/quotte]

The Question Rephrased:
The bible clearly states that the devil , the beast and the false prophet are tormented forever and ever.

The Bible clearly states that anyone whose name is NOT in the book of life is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Are those people annihilated or tormented with the devil?
Recall that there is certainly a resurection of the wicked as well as the resurection of the righteous.


DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR ME or
Can I go on with my final Rounds of Questions?

My Final Sets of Questions has to do with Servitude to Jesus Christ and related questions.
Re: Discussion on Doctrine between a Christian and a Jehovah's Witness by alBHAGDADI: 1:14pm On May 15
Evasive tactics displayed all through by the JW guy. He doesn't want to be told he's wrong even when scriptures point out to him that he is, and while he's trying to point t out that his opponent is wrong.

All have seen is him reading his own meaning, jw doctrine into the Bible, instead of allowing the Bible read meaning to him.

Also noticed is how he dodged the question of being born again. He knew it will expose him in a very big way. How can you say a Christian shouldn't say he's born again? Yet you expect people to listen to your Preaching when they are not sure you are even saved yourself.

Another thing noticed: He hardly quotes a scripture for us to see. He only quotes the book and verse numbers without the words. He doesn't want to be accused of using their corrupt NWT version.

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