Abdulgaffar22:
@ elated 177

If it is true as you claimed that Jesus really deserve worship by quoting Hebrew 1:6-13, then Jesus must be God. This is because only God deserved to be worshipped. Do you agree ?

But do other parts of the Bible support the belief that Jesus is God ? Let us consider the following biblical verses;

In John 20:17, Jesus was reported to have said;

“Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

If Jesus is God Almighty, then which God was he referring to when he said ; "my God and your God" ? Can God Almighty have another God?

Also Luke 6:12 says

"He (Jesus) went out to the mountain side to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God" .

Remember the verse did not say "......and continued all night in prayer to Father". But it says "..... and continued all night in prayer to God"

Now if Jesus is God, who was he praying to ?



Again Mark 10:17-18 says as follows ;

"Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”.

If Jesus is God, why did he reject being called “good” and then submit that all goodness belongs only to God?

Again, in Matthew 24:36, Jesus said; “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but ONLY THE FATHER”.

If Jesus is God, why did he confess his lack of knowledge about the Day of Judgment and then submit that the knowledge of that day belongs only to the Father? Can God be lacking anything as regard to knowledge?

Lastly in John 17:3, Jesus was praying to the Father and he said;

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent " .

If Jesus himself was referring to another person (i:e the Father) as the "ONLY true God" , then how could Jesus be God ?
If Jesus did not use the word "ONLY", then hopefully the Christians might still want to argue that Jesus is also another true God just like his Father. However, the word "ONLY" used by Jesus will continue to shatter the hope of those who want to believe that Jesus is God.

Your whole argument borders on the identity of Yahushua the Messiah as the Word and begotten Son of YHVH of Hosts.

One vital question:

Do you or do you not believe that Yahushua the Messiah is the Word and begotten Son of YHVH of Hosts, the Creator of the ends of the earth?

Yes Yahushua the Messiah deserves worship.

Only YHVH, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the sea and all that is in them, deserves worship. He, YHVH the Father of the spirits of all flesh, deserves to be worshipped by all he created.

Duet 5:7 You shall have no other gods before me.

But has that stopped people from worshipping all sorts of things -stones, mountains, wood, the sun, the moon, the stars, etc.

Deut 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that YHVH spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which YHVH thy Elohim hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

4:20 But YHVH hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Do you not realize that YHVH of Hosts is one with his Word? The Father and his Word are one. If YHVH honours himself, he is also honouring his Word. If he honours his Word, he is honouring himself. If YHVH glorifies his Word, he is glorifying himself. If YHVH glorifies himself, he is directly glorifying his Word as well. This is why anyone who honours the Word of YHVH of Hosts, honours YHVH himself. Anyone who worships YHVH of Hosts, worships his Word. Anyone who does not obey the Word does not obey the Owner of the Word. The Scriptures have made it abundantly clear that the Word of YHVH of Hosts is his begotten Son, Yahushua the Messiah. YHVH of Hosts is God, his Word is God. YHVH of Hosts is Law, his Word is Law. YHVH of Hosts is the Master, God, Father of his Word. YHVH El Shaddai is above and greater than his Word.

At this juncture, I ask you, Abdulgaffar22, do you or do you not accept the identity of Yahushua the Messiah as the Word and begotten Son of YHVH Almighty, the Fatherof the spirits of all flesh?

If your answer is yes, then a lot of things will make sense to you.

However, if your answer is no, there is nothing I will say here that will make any sense to you.

Once the relationship between YHVH the Father and his Word - his Son - is distorted, there is nothing in the New Covenant (Matthew to Revelation) that will make any sense to such a person.

Psalm 110:1 YHVH said unto my Master, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psalm 45:6 Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim, thy Elohim, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

El Elohe Yahshrael! Hallelu Yah!

maxumus69

I thought you will take your time to answer those questions one by one. Since you just lumped every thing together, let put an end to this argument and await the day we will all meet in the sight of God. But TWO FACTS I know for sure ;

1. God is not the author of contradiction; God Almighty who says ; "An innocent and righteous human being MUST NOT be deliberately killed (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)" would NOT LATER CONTRADICT HIMSELF by saying: "An innocent and righteous human being MUST be deliberately killed on the cross of Calvary before the humanity can gain eternal life".
You may want to argue again that this is just a THEORY. But you have to remember that believing in the work of Christ on the CROSS is one of the foundational pillars upon which the edifice of CHRISTENDOM is erected. If there is a problem with this very PILLAR, all your practical application and benefits amount to NOTHING! It will be like a beautiful mansion that was built on a very WEAK FOUNDATION which is bound to collapse sooner or later.
2. If it is TRUE THAT JESUS WAS SENT TO BOTH THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES, then Jesus' statement directed to that Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:24 should have been: IT IS NOT YET TIME FOR THE GENTILES or something similar in meaning rather than “I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL”. Why did Jesus have to say such a statement if he was truly sent to the entire world to die for our salvation ?
There is NO ANY VERSE in the Qur'an which says Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or his companions were sent ONLY to the Arabs. But see how the Bible categorically declared that Jesus (pbuh) was sent ONLY to the Israelites; I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL ( Matthew 15:24) and see how Qur’an declared that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to ALL MANKIND; " AND WE HAVE NOT SENT YOU (O Muhammad-pbuh) EXCEPT AS A GIVER OF GLAD TIDINGS AND AS A WARNER TO ALL MANKIND (Qur’an 34:28)"
I swear by Allah these TWO FACTS always make mind to be at rest when it comes to issue of choosing between Islam and Christendom.
Hopefully, this will be my last post to you on this thread. Pls continue with your Jehovah witnessing. I will continue with my Islam. Thank you

Abdulgaffar22:
maxumus69

I thought you will take your time to answer those questions one by one.
Hopefully, this will be my last post to you on this thread. Pls continue with your Jehovah witnessing. I will continue with my Islam. Thank you

Ma Salam!

Abdulgaffar22:
maxumus69

I thought you will take your time to answer those questions one by one. Since you just lumped every thing together, let put an end to this argument and await the day we will all meet in the sight of God.
"I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL"
Why did Jesus have to say such a statement if he was truly sent to the entire world to die for our salvation ?

I missed this question in your post, of course it's a very thoughtful one, but it's like you are feeling highly uncomfortable with me on your thread.
So would you like to know the answer to this question of yours or we should both called it a day and say Goodbye?

Abdulgaffar22:
@Sagenaija
You wrote;
"Does payment for sin make sense? Yes".


My reply;
Yes payment for sin make sense. But if and only if the payment for that sin was made by a RIGHTEOUS ACT AND NOT BY ANOTHER SINFUL ACT THAT IS MUCH MORE GREATER .

When God provides a solution it is a RIGHTEOUS ACT. Because God is righteous his actions are always righteous. Where God kill as a JUDGEMENT he does so in righteousness.

When Adam and Eve could only think of using leaves to cover their unclothedness God himself killed an animal and used the skin as a covering for them. An 'innocent' animal had to be killed to provide for man. But that act of God was righteous.

Isaiah 53 gives a similar provision but this time for all mankind.

When God provided Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for mankind's sin he did that in righteousness. Jesus is God's own provision not man's provision.

Therefore, God's ACT at the cross was a GRACIOUS and RIGHTEOUS ACT to provide eternal salvation for man.

Abdulgaffar22:
@Originakalokalo

Your argument amounts to nothing until you are able to prove that Christianity was brought by Jesus Christ and not by Paul.

Information about Apostle Paul in Islam!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHdFphuLLc

sagenaija:

Information about Apostle Paul in Islam!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsHdFphuLLc

❝I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.❞
—John 8: 24

Paul did not say this.

❝For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.❞
—Matthew 26: 28 (KJV)

Paul did not say this.

John 4 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²⁵ The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
²⁶ Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


Jesus confirmed himself to be the Messiah.


He ascended into heaven and the angels announced his return...

My brother, you are wasting your time with this Paul thing.

You need to accept Jesus.

Tell that megemu to accept Jesus too.

These are the fundamentals of Christianity.

You need to nurture that thought of Jesus in your heart.

Fighting it off won't help you.

We believe in Jesus unique birth, death and resurrection.

We believe in his ascension and his advocacy.

We believe in his coming back.

These are Christians belief as taught by Jesus himself.


Stop worrying about us.

Worry about your prophet's personalities and character.

Compare Jesus and Mohammed and see the difference.

Jesus is calling you to repentance.
.

We believe in Jesus unique birth, death and resurrection.

We believe in his ascension and his advocacy.

We believe in his coming back.

These are Christians belief as taught by Jesus himself.


Stop worrying about us.

Study your prophet's personalities and character, bearing in mind the sanctity of religion.

Compare Jesus and Mohammed and see the difference.

Jesus is calling you to repentance.
.

@ maximus 69


Yes answer this question.
Jesus said
I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF
ISRAEL"
Why did Jesus have to say such a statement if he was truly sent to the entire world to die for our salvation ?

Abdulgaffar22:
@ maximus 69


Yes answer this question.
Jesus said
I WAS SENT ONLY TO THE LOST SHEEP OF
ISRAEL"
Why did Jesus have to say such a statement if he was truly sent to the entire world to die for our salvation ?

Hmmm,
You welcomed me at first Sir, but after hearing of a logic that surpasses all understanding even silencing atheists who's been arguing with you since, you now chose to keep Islam, instead of emulating the insumontable logic that you initially wanted to know!

Well that's life for you, people speak as if they want the TRUTH forgetting that real truth is bitter most especially if you're not on its side!

Answer to your question! It's a THEORY that needs a thorough explanation just as any other religion including Islam and Atheism also present their THEORIES!

God is setting up a government that's to rule mankind under God's direction, a king must be chosen and that king must have corulers working with him. Both the king and his corulers must be well acquainted with their subjects.
Jesus is the best man for that job as a PERFECT counselor! Isaiah 9:6
His corulers must be selected first, and since God has promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that both the king and his corulers will all be selected from their lineage, Jesus came to gather only those corulers first, and it is these corulers that are going to gather their obedient subjects from all races! Revelations 14:1,6
So that's why Jesus said that and to help you know that the benefits of that government will permeates all mankind Jesus still said it's for the benefit of all peoples! John 3:16

Today that government is almost complete in heaven where Jesus promised the selected ones! John 14:1-3
And the subjects is what you're seeing Jehovah's Witnesses gathering throughout the earth presently! Matthew 28:19-20

@ Sagenaija
Premise 1; killing of innocent and righteous human being is a SINFUL ACT. Otherwise, God would not have forbidden it (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)

Premise 2; Jesus is an innocent and righteous human being.

Premise 3; Therefore, the alleged killing of Jesus on the cross is a SINFUL ACT.

Please which of the three premises cited above is not correct for the sake of God ?

Now if the killing of Jesus on the cross is a sinful act, then it CAN NEVER ATONE FOR ANOTHER SINFUL ACT; let alone all the sinful acts of all humanity.
IT IS ONLY AN ACT OF PURE RIGHTEOUSNESS( which itself does not need any atonement) THAT CAN ATONE FOR SINFUL ACTS.
Such acts of righteousness which has God used in the PAST to atone for sinful acts of humanity include the following;
# Animal sacrifice (see Leviticus 16:20-30),
# Sincere repentance ( see Ezekiel 18:20-22, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 36:3 Ezekiel 33:10-16, ),
# Forgiving other people's faults ( see Matthew 6:14, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37),
# Devotional prayer (see 1st Kings 8:46-50, 2nd Chronicles 7:14 ),
# Fasting (see Jonah 3:5-10 )
# Giving of charity and showing mercy to the poor (see Exodus 30:15-16, Numbers 31:50, Daniel 4:27 ).
# God's infinite mercy (see Psalms 78:36-39, Isaiah 43:23-25).
Please for God'sake open and read all these biblical verses cited just above and see how God has been using these PURE RIGHTEOUS ACTS to atone for the sins of His people before the arrival of Jesus Christ.

@ maximus 69

So that is your answer to my question!
No problem. But do you have anything to say about my submission below;

God is not the author of contradiction; God Almighty who says ; "An innocent and righteous human being MUST NOT be deliberately killed (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)" would NOT LATER CONTRADICT HIMSELF by saying: "An innocent and righteous human being MUST be deliberately killed on the cross of Calvary before the humanity can gain eternal life".
You may want to argue again that this is just a THEORY. But you have to remember that believing in the work of Christ on the CROSS is one of the foundational pillars upon which the edifice of CHRISTENDOM is erected. If there is a problem with this very PILLAR, all your practical application and benefits amount to NOTHING! It will be like a beautiful mansion that was built on a very WEAK FOUNDATION which is bound to collapse sooner or later.

Abdulgaffar22:
@ Sagenaija
Premise 1;

First, did you see the Isaiah 53 I refered you to?

Secondly, how many or how much PURE RIGHTEOUS ACTS qualify for atonement of sins?

If your premises are to be accepted then MOHAMED failed and should be indicted for crimes against humanity. Don't you think?

God told Adam that there is a consequence to disobedience. As a righteous God, that consequence stands. He will be unrighteous if he arbitrarily imposed that consequence on some and not on others when they all disobey. He is righteous when he acquits anyone who meets the demands of that consequence.

A judge can preside over a case and impose a fine on an offender. That same judge can, outside of the court proceedings, pay the fine for the offender. As long as the fine is paid the offender is discharged of the obligation of paying the fine. He is free and acquitted.

That is what God did through Jesus Christ. He offered to pay the penalty for mankind's sin. There is no INJUSTICE in that just like the judge who offers to pay an offender's fine.

You quote the Bible copiously. Is it to accept what it says or to win an argument? Jesus said:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" John 10:11
"I lay down my life for the benefit of the sheep" John 10:15
Jesus CHOSE to take care of mankind's sin problem. There is no injustice in that.

Abdulgaffar22:
@ Sagenaija
Premise 1; killing of innocent and righteous human being is a SINFUL ACT. Otherwise, God would not have forbidden it (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)

Premise 2; Jesus is an innocent and righteous human being.

Premise 3; Therefore, the alleged killing of Jesus on the cross is a SINFUL ACT.

Please which of the three premises cited above is not correct for the sake of God ?

Now if the killing of Jesus on the cross is a sinful act, then it CAN NEVER ATONE FOR ANOTHER SINFUL ACT; let alone all the sinful acts of all humanity.
IT IS ONLY AN ACT OF PURE RIGHTEOUSNESS( which itself does not need any atonement) THAT CAN ATONE FOR SINFUL ACTS.
Such acts of righteousness which has God used in the PAST to atone for sinful acts of humanity include the following;
# Animal sacrifice (see Leviticus 16:20-30),
# Sincere repentance ( see Ezekiel 18:20-22, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 36:3 Ezekiel 33:10-16, ),
# Forgiving other people's faults ( see Matthew 6:14, Mark 11:25, Luke 6:37),
# Devotional prayer (see 1st Kings 8:46-50, 2nd Chronicles 7:14 ),
# Fasting (see Jonah 3:5-10 )
# Giving of charity and showing mercy to the poor (see Exodus 30:15-16, Numbers 31:50, Daniel 4:27 ).
# God's infinite mercy (see Psalms 78:36-39, Isaiah 43:23-25).
Please for God'sake open and read all these biblical verses cited just above and see how God has been using these PURE RIGHTEOUS ACTS to atone for the sins of His people before the arrival of Jesus Christ.

Life is a process and in stages.

The death of Jesus is a sacrifice that is a must to escape the second death.
Those who died according to Isiah did not escape the second death. They were under the earth with father Abraham ( Abraham's Bosom ) waiting for the saviour to save them from the second death or final judgement.

Preferences :
John 5:25-29 KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is no contradiction with the book of Ezekiel. Those who did good will hear the voice of Jesus in their grave before ascending to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 KJV
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I VERY SURE , IF YOU DIE AS A MUSLIM , YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL BECAUSE SALVATION IS THROUGH ISAAC ( JEW ) AND NOT ISHMAEL ( ARAB ).

John 4:22-24 KJV
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Abdulgaffar22:
@ maximus 69

So that is your answer to my question!
No problem. But do you have anything to say about my submission below;

God is not the author of contradiction; God Almighty who says ; "An innocent and righteous human being MUST NOT be deliberately killed (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)" would NOT LATER CONTRADICT HIMSELF by saying: "An innocent and righteous human being MUST be deliberately killed on the cross of Calvary before the humanity can gain eternal life".
You may want to argue again that this is just a THEORY. But you have to remember that believing in the work of Christ on the CROSS is one of the foundational pillars upon which the edifice of CHRISTENDOM is erected. If there is a problem with this very PILLAR, all your practical application and benefits amount to NOTHING! It will be like a beautiful mansion that was built on a very WEAK FOUNDATION which is bound to collapse sooner or later.

Abdulgaffar! Abdulgaffar!! Abdulgaffar!!!
Why are you deliberately punishing your own soul all because of Islam?

Every religion on this planet {including Islam} have it's own PILLAR, so don't just assume that what the teachers in your religion says is the most reasonable!

Your question!

God said an innocent man must not be deliberately killed according to his law and every Israelite knows that for sure, that's why one of the members of the group who plotted the execution of Jesus asked them 'can we rightly do this?' John 7:51
And Pilate the Roman governor also said 'my hands are not in the killing of this innocent man' Matthew 27:24
And the Jews said 'let the blood {of the innocent} come upon us and upon our children! Matthew 27:25

So it's clear that Jesus died as an innocent man, but why and what reasonableness could be said about that?

Well remember that God never intended that Adam should die according to the THEORY of the Bible {Genesis 2:16-17} but since he chose to die and put all his descendants in line for sickness, suffering and death {Genesis 3:6,17-19} another PERFECT soul must stand as a sacrifice to redeem OBEDIENT descendants of Adam! 1Corinthians 15:45

No imperfect human can stand to undo the consequence of Adamic sin {Psalms 49:7-10}}
So it is perfectly logical to agree that it's right to pay a perfect sacrifice before OBEDIENT mankind can regain what Adam lost which is the prospect to live forever! Psalms 37:29 Quran 21:105

So if the THEORY is false there is no way you can explain it to make any practical sense to convince your listeners, no wonder every other religious groups on earth are getting followers by telling them lies or forcing them!

Jehovah's Witnesses will present the indomitable THEORY, teach you the PRACTICA APPLICATION and you yourself will experience the BENEFITS of what you've accepted! Isaiah 48:17-18
Your heart will be filled with LOVE, JOY and PEACE from the one and only true God! Philippians 4:4-7

@Abdulgaffar

If you want to be sincere with yourself in this matter, why not meditate thoroughly on my introduction when joining your thread?
I promised you a LOGIC that will throw all religionists including atheists off balance! Didn't i?
Please where are the atheists now?
Do you think they're no more following this thread?
Of course they're still very much around, but the logic is what they can't refute because all they depended upon is LOGICAL REASONING not scriptures!
So let them come up now with any logic they can present to back their THEORY of evolution,if there will be any PRACTICAL APPLICATION that can BENEFIT anyone?

I'm Yoruba, an adage in my tongue will say 'awifuni koto dani, agba ijakadi ni' meaning 'any winning wrestler that foretells the outcome of a challenge is truly invincible'

So i need not tell you again now that the logic is truly indisputable!

@Abdulgaffae; salaamualaykum and may Allah make your iman stronger and not diminish. amin. stay strong. i used to do this over a decade ago on this platform. i will not continue now. but i want to engage maximus69 for a minute and that's all.

@Maximus69; if your brand of christianity is the correct one, then all the hordes of mankind in christianity that passed before JW began in USA less than 200 years ago are all doomed. this doomed include all the disciples, apostles, indeed Paul. are you okay with that? since Jesus himself was jewish and his religion was not judaism, are you okay with all jews being doomed as well?

please focus, since the bible declares that salvation is of the jews to mean if you accept my proposition, you have gone against the bible itself. in lieu of the above, i wonder what you base your claim upon, when Jesus had a God? the word messiah is neither indication that it means God or savior, except it means wiped, rubbed, anointed. definitely the One Who wiped, rubbed, anointed him must be in control of his existence, hence He sent him as a messenger to nations of children of Israel.

if the fruit is how you know the tree is, fruit of Islam is head and shoulder better in morality, reliance on God, indeed reverence to God. i often wonder and in your case if you don't consider your leaving Islam as a matter of convenience because if becomes a bare hand hold on to red hot charcoal?

while i will nor compare the 2 prophets [AS], however, it is your claim that Jesus started your religion in general. this is not true because his religion is not different from that of Adam [AS] and all the prophets before him [AS] or the religion completed upon Muhammad [SA]. this is Islam in its particulars, in its core. God is One and He is complete and did not leave anyone to its own invention of of His worship. He laid out a fundamental principle; I am 1, your Lord, your Mater, your Sustainer, Who you should worship and do not desist in relying on Me.

people leave a way and it is not to proof the superiority or inferiority of what is the new way or the old way. i am talking to an ibibio your woman now who is seeking Islam and can't help herself about this. i just gave her the wording of the 2 shahadah, just less than 2 hours ago. it has nothing to do with romance, except Allah soften her heart knowing fully how much she wants to obey Him.

you said zaqat. what is zaqat if it is not charity? in your usage please tell me what you meant?

it is easy for Allah to remove hypocrites from the fold of Islam and replace them with better sould in larger number or same amount. so i am not surprised those that turned Islam to culture leave it, including the arabs, hausas, etc and replace them with igbos, yankees, etc of many hues.

finally, the word infidel coined from infidelity does not have a direct translation of any arabic word as disbeliever means kafiri. but when the enemies of islam pushed the word hard and long enough on Islam, even the muslims are using it, while it at least appears once or more on the pages of the bible.

the miracles of Muhammad [SA] includes nations having their spiritual inner eyes, the heart open and purified and make thir physical regenrated from filth to purity. It is Islam and it is not based on blind and illogical arguments.

Even the logic you bringing to play can't prove the existence of God and creation so leave logic out of things concerning God... God is spirit and spirit defies logic

@Olabowale
We are all humans Sir, and i hate arguing about religion but whenever or wherever i meet someone who wants to talk with reasonableness, i'll ship in what i've got.
This is just a friendly discussion between two presenters, Abdulgaffar has presented a logical that he feels is best to use in determining the one and only true religion from God. I love God as well so i examined the logic, presented a much simpler and indisputable logic that surpasses all understanding to the point that even those who have no regards for inspired writings can't refute.
Please let Abdulgaffar decide what to do because he is the one that came up with the idea of LOGICS before i gave him the best of the best!
If you want to ask any question, you're free to do so and be rest assured that you'll get your answers in a more respectable and calm way. Know today that God is not to be forced on anyone that's why he gave us brains which enables each intelligent person makes the decision that's best to their own understanding!

So don't think i've come to argue Sir, all i did was to present a KEY to divine wisdom but if you and Abdulgaffar don't want it, i'll keep the key because it's not to be forced on anyone. God is the best judge!

As for the books handed over to people across the world as sacred scriptures today, we're having not less than 10 books all talking about divine wisdom and guidance!
The Bible is just one of those books so if any book is thought to be truly from the divine, i believe it should be scrutinized to the last order by the one who wish to stand by it so that he's convinced beyond every reasonable doubt that he's having the REAL truth!

You're welcome Sir please don't behave like those intolerant Arabs who feels everyone must accept their book whether it's convincing or not, you're a Yoruba man from your profile and i believe the adage which says 'Ti a ba ran ni ni ise eru, a fi t'omo je' meaning 'a wiser messenger chooses his words with wisdom and virtue'
The Arabs claims to have the TRUTH so why not work on their THEORY meditate thoroughly on the PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS and see the BENEFIT of what they passed onto our forefathers?
If truthfully it was preached to them and NOT forced on our people, time will tell. Because we are now learned unlike our forefathers who knew nothing about writing or reading back then!

@Olabowale
The world have been dominated by power~drunk individuals right from the times of Nimrod till today and the first four world powers were Arabs :
Egypt
Assyrians {southern Iran}
Babylon {Iraq}
Persia and Medes {northern Iran alliance with orients}

After these four comes :
Greece
Rome
England
America

What you're seeing today is just a conspiracy that the Arab world is trying to make use of the power of religion to conquer and dominate the world again. America has cornered them on this by insisting on freedom of speech, expression and worship to divide the Arabs , that's why they're using religion as a key to get more allies. Their intentions is to use the system employed by Romans which made the Roman domination lasted longer than any other world power!
The Roman's used Religion {Catholicism} to conquer the world of their time by disarming other nations with religious techniques so you won't think of waging war against the home of the Pope, but after England conquered Rome the church was divided that's why there's Roman Catholic Church against the Anglo Catholic Church!
As for the TRUTH it has been there all along, so while all those false religions are busy fighting for supremacy, God is arranging for a release of true worshipers from false religions. This was made manifest when America declared freedom of speech, expressions and worship, then God's people now have their Exodus to live all the religions FORCING people to worship and they're now free to worship out of their own clean conscience!

That's the TRUTH, you can ask any question that comes to your mind. The books weren't written by you or your parents neither was any books written by me nor my parents, we all came to meet the books!
Please it's about PEACE not for strife so let's make use of what God has given us all 'OUR BRAINS' to discern which of these books is truly from God!
Because we both agreed that God will judge all those who WILFULLY refuse to worship him, yet God won't judge people whose conscience is at work in all they does!
Good morning Sir, May God bless you abundantly!

Amadaz:
Even the logic you bringing to play can't prove the existence of God and creation so leave logic out of things concerning God... God is spirit and spirit defies logic

That's exactly what atheists will say, but faith is about reality{Hebrew 11:1} NOT myths and whatever is REAL must prove to be LOGICAL in every sense!

God is a Spirit for sure {John 4:24} and he loves to educate humans {the only intelligent creature one earth } on how to live happily! Isaiah 48:17-18
So there must be an indomitable, indisputable and highly convincing logic on how that could be made possible! 2Timothy 3:16-17

@maximum69: Islam under Muhammad [SA] began in 610 CE and began its spiritual dominance in particular regions in 623 the year of the Hijra. tell me when these places became arab nations, since you said you used to be muslim and the incidence of Taif, which is one of the most difficult event, as per the statement of the prophet [SA] happened to him?
the first four world powers were Arabs :
Egypt
Assyrians {southern Iran}
Babylon {Iraq}
Persia and Medes {northern Iran alliance with orients}

I am almost certain you will not know it because Adadas from the region of Iraq was an Iraqi christian servant in Taif tending the 'grape farm' vineyard of his Makka masters to witness the incidence. His statement [RA] who latter became a companion, while still a christian to what he heard the prophet [SA] say tells me that none of these places at least Iraq was arab and could not have been arab civilization. the arabs were unlettered and you couldn't muster a civilization to become world power unless you master the the element of superiority of your time. in this case it was writing, art, etc which the arabs lacked all.

i am going to go on a limb here and say you are just writing for the sake of saying something and that is truly lack of emotional discipline. i can see why you left islam for christianity in general and jw in particular. there is no spiritual insight in what you have done. you lost in reality the light of guidance. sincerely. May Allah opened your eyes and make your heart alive, again. Amin.


There is no need for us to talk about the power of the western countries, specifically that of america that is driving the present day narrative for many reasons. do not believe the hype which is why you left islam. i have a 'dog in the fight' and i probably stand a better chance on the matter. nothing is exactly what it is seems to people looking at it from afar. the law may protect the individuals in a general sense. but what drives the agenda is what drives it. often religion is not totally separated from the affairs of the 'state/s", nations.

the america of 'Trump dogma" looks more christian than that of Obama. while 2nd Bush fought under the ideologue of crusade, Obama opened up gay advancement. the era of President Trump say conservatism that in my own opinion is tunnel vision. saying no abortion at all irrespective of the situation of the mother and pregnancy is not looking at the total picture.

obviously, you don't know much about the arabs. arabs for a slice of bread will throw their own mother under the bus, politically. so the arabs are not what Islam is. Islam has its own agenda; God is 1 and His Name is Allah. He is Al Rahman. Worship Him alone. Yes. Islam may love/strive to open you up to 'discover' it. but no one can force anyone to accept or reject matter of the heart; your position with God.

as to practicality, Islam beats every ideology, religion, way, path. it is a means of solving the issues and problems of individuals, groups, societies, indeed mankind and creation.any problem, Islam has its solution be it homelessness, etc, etc to being extremely affluence. it keeps you grounded, focused, realizing it is a phase, a test and if you are God conscious, it will pass, definitely death will remove you from it.


freedom of speech is not absolute in america, though it is close to it. and so is each on your list.

olabowale212:
@maximum69: Islam under Muhammad [SA] began in 610 CE and began its spiritual dominance in particular regions in 623 the year of the Hijra. tell me when these places became arab nations, since you said you used to be muslim and the incidence of Taif, which is one of the most difficult event, as per the statement of the prophet [SA] happened to him?
the first four world powers were Arabs :
Egypt
Assyrians {southern Iran}
Babylon {Iraq}
Persia and Medes {northern Iran alliance with orients}

I am almost certain you will not know it because Adadas from the region of Iraq was an Iraqi christian servant in Taif tending the 'grape farm' vineyard of his Makka masters to witness the incidence. His statement [RA] who latter became a companion, while still a christian to what he heard the prophet [SA] say tells me that none of these places at least Iraq was arab and could not have been arab civilization. the arabs were unlettered and you couldn't muster a civilization to become world power unless you master the the element of superiority of your time. in this case it was writing, art, etc which the arabs lacked all.

i am going to go on a limb here and say you are just writing for the sake of saying something and that is truly lack of emotional discipline. i can see why you left islam for christianity in general and jw in particular. there is no spiritual insight in what you have done. you lost in reality the light of guidance. sincerely. May Allah opened your eyes and make your heart alive, again. Amin.


There is no need for us to talk about the power of the western countries, specifically that of america that is driving the present day narrative for many reasons. do not believe the hype which is why you left islam. i have a 'dog in the fight' and i probably stand a better chance on the matter. nothing is exactly what it is seems to people looking at it from afar. the law may protect the individuals in a general sense. but what drives the agenda is what drives it. often religion is not totally separated from the affairs of the 'state/s", nations.

the america of 'Trump dogma" looks more christian than that of Obama. while 2nd Bush fought under the ideologue of crusade, Obama opened up gay advancement. the era of President Trump say conservatism that in my own opinion is tunnel vision. saying no abortion at all irrespective of the situation of the mother and pregnancy is not looking at the total picture.

obviously, you don't know much about the arabs. arabs for a slice of bread will throw their own mother under the bus, politically. so the arabs are not what Islam is. Islam has its own agenda; God is 1 and His Name is Allah. He is Al Rahman. Worship Him alone. Yes. Islam may love/strive to open you up to 'discover' it. but no one can force anyone to accept or reject matter of the heart; your position with God.

as to practicality, Islam beats every ideology, religion, way, path. it is a means of solving the issues and problems of individuals, groups, societies, indeed mankind and creation.any problem, Islam has its solution be it homelessness, etc, etc to being extremely affluence. it keeps you grounded, focused, realizing it is a phase, a test and if you are God conscious, it will pass, definitely death will remove you from it.


freedom of speech is not absolute in america, though it is close to it. and so is each on your list.

Please your write-up is much and full of variations, can you just ask your questions one after the other so that i provide the LOGICAL answers?
You are not the person who initiated this so try to be calm with your approach to sensitive issues like this, because you can't decide for everyone unless they fully grasp what they're going to do in any so called religion.

I never said Islam is the problem but the Arabs. And you can find the list of world powers to from the beginning till now, even Jesus lived during the time of Roman dominance {6th power to dominate the world} and Muhammad live 570 years after. So there is no way both of them could have been part of it from the beginning!
What i'm saying is that Arabs are now trying to form allies with other people to regain what
Ramses {Egypt}
Sennacherib {Assyria}
Nebuchadnezzar {Babylon}
Xaxes {Persia}
lost. They all had encounter with the Israelites due to the supremacy of the God who claims to be the most high God backing Israel! And since all these nations are now like a family practicing one religion {Islam} they are coming together to avenge all that Israel has cost them in the past!

@maximus69: the issue of faith, religion and everlasting is very diverse, indeed deeper that just 1 issue. i came to this topic, seeing that you made many incorrect statements and not all of them pointed to a single strand of the entire conversation.

i asked you to tell me if you know when arabs lived in any of the 4 'arab' powers you mentioned. you haven't done that because you may or may not know that when those powers existed as rulers of empires, civilizations, the arabs were not part of it. egyptian pharaoh era is a good example because they were black people from africa, not across the red sea. you can say after the fall of pharaoh, suddenly egyptians were arabs, instead of nubians. assyrians were not arabs as arabs know it. persia is iranian, afghanistans, etc and definitely not arabs, even now. i used the christian iraqi Adadas to illustrate to you that even just before isra wa Miraj when the Taif incident happened, iraq was not an arab state.

by the way you said Zaqat and you never address the issue as i want to know what do you mean by it in the context you used it?

finally, i am contributing in support of the argument of he person who started the thread. i didn't want you guys to gang up on him. without seeing any cheerleader. i am a cheerleader here and that does not mean i can't have something to say. you just have to pick what you want address instead of complaining that i am discussing more than 1 issue. you do talk and walk at the same time, right?

@Maximum69. Below is what you said in quote on June 27 at 5.22pm in response to abdulgaffar.

It's you now that's trying to say 'this is the theory that i'm used to, so give me this theory first' whereas your theory has been in existence for almost 1,500 years now. Yet it has not been able to unite adherents as one happy global family of worshipers! Unless you can present a Muslim group that's benefiting from the Islamic theories and it's applications globally! All we know about Islam is the theory {Quran and sharia} the application {zaqat} but there is no benefit for adherents other than telling them 'you'll go to heaven'! undecided

just explain to me zaqat in the context you have used it. you claim to be have been muslim aferetime. i just wanna see how true zaqat is in your usage of application.

olabowale212:
@Maximum69. Below is what you said in quote on June 27 at 5.22pm in response to abdulgaffar.



just explain to me zaqat in the context you have used it. you claim to be have been muslim aferetime. i just wanna see how true zaqat is in your usage of application.

My friend, this is not about argument. It's about LOGIC and the person who started this conversation knew very well that i've promised and fulfilled my promise by silencing atheists as well as all other religious teachers with the simple LOGIC.
So why not maintain your peace and let's forget about all these but if truthfully you're here for the sake of presenting a better LOGIC please you're welcome!

Salat NOT Zaqat {sorry for the mistake} is just all about what Muhammad introduced as a way of rendering sacred service to God and it has several gestures, but every religion on earth today has gestures and of course they're all claiming that the invisible Supreme being {God} will repay them for all those gestures taught to be based on sacred services!

What Abdulgaffar introduced here is very clear and easy to help honesthearted individuals see reasons with faith in God. LOGICS is what atheists are claiming they have and they've always assert that faith have nothing to do with logic, forgetting that even their evolution theory if thoroughly scrutinized can be rendered worthless in the face of LOGICS. Now that the logic that's powerful enough to test all Theories is here, all of them disappeared!
I expected them to say their evolution theory has any practical application that could benefit people because they've always blame religion for everything. But they're smarter than i thought so they all ran away.
So if you're here for logics let's hear you out but if not then just forget about the issue because Abdulgaffar has made himself clear that he is no more ready for LOGICS!

@maximus69: did you leave Islam for christianity because of logic and discard other sects of christianity with logic when you settled on JW? that 2 segmented logic i will like to hear since 1 Absolute Master is superior to 3 equal Masters, rendering each of the them not absolute, in reality incomplete. this to me disqualifies christianity and the christians will disqualify your JW with already sold former Brookly headquarters in Dumbo now a condo, for the most part.

no one can be in 3 separate cars at the same time. and no 3 different cars even on the same road at the same time be misunderstood as 1 car. if each is one a different road, we can claim that they are all one car, arriving at the same time to a destination being driven by a single driver.

olabowale212:
@maximus69: did you leave Islam for christianity because of logic and discard other sects of christianity with logic when you settled on JW? that 2 segmented logic i will like to hear since 1 Absolute Master is superior to 3 equal Masters, rendering each of the them not absolute, in reality incomplete. this to me disqualifies christianity and the christians will disqualify your JW with already sold former Brookly headquarters in Dumbo now a condo, for the most part.

no one can be in 3 separate cars at the same time. and no 3 different cars even on the same road at the same time be misunderstood as 1 car. if each is one a different road, we can claim that they are all one car, arriving at the same time to a destination being driven by a single driver.

Well LOGIC is it Sir!

Muhammad actually said 'seek divine wisdom even if this will cost you traveling to the most distant part of the earth'

Certainly Muhammad was optimistic about Islam during his days, he believes that there is no religion that's logical enough to stand Islam!
Why?
Because truthfully speaking the only religion claiming Christian that time is the Roman Catholic Church which is total Paganism NOT true Christianity!

So if he were alive today to here what i've heard and see what i've seen, I can bet my life on it that such an optimistic figure will surely become one of Jehovah's Witnesses as well!
For your information, all what the Catholic Church taught people back then that Muhammad debunked is exactly what Jehovah's Witnesses also debunk today, the only difference between a JW and Muhammad is that our logic can beat all other logics, that's why we can boldly, confidently and convincingly speak without fear!
Nobody from any part of this planet having real love for God will hear us out without taking action!

There are two mindsets of people living on this planet.
(1) Those who have deep rooted love for the worship of our creator at heart, they will never rest until they're sure that God is on their side. The father of all these ones {by faith} is Abraham!

(2)Those who just follow anywhere the majority heads, these ones only move with the trend, they're not optimistic about worship, so if you see them worshipping, it's due to their attachment to family and friends NOT truly motivated out of love for someone they can't see!

So Olabowale,

Are you for Abraham or not?
But before you respond, listen to the story of Abraham!

He was the first and foremost patriac who ever lived.
God chose Abraham for the purpose of establishing the pure worship that's going to lead obedient mankind to Paradise. He had no child until his old-age, his wife Sarah compelled him to have sex with her slave girl called Hagar, Hagar got pregnant and delivered a boy to Abraham but thirteen years later Saran also got pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in her old-age.
Certainly God had a purpose for Sarah's child!

So what's the purpose? Well Abraham having seen Ishmael {Hagar's son} concluded that God's promise about salvation of mankind is here. Genesis 17:18
But God answered: NO! My covenant will be established with Isaac the child Sarah your wife will born. As for Ishmael, well i've heard you, i will make him great and he will also prosper but my covenant i will establish with ISAAC! Genesis 17:19-21

Before then God's angel have foretold what Ishmael will become in the future, don't forget that he is also had Abraham's blood running in his veins, so he also have that strong will for pure worship!
But because God's promise favoured the matrimony of Abraham and Sarah, Ishmael will later come back for what doesn't rightly belongs to him nor his descendants {Pure Worship}!
And since he has no credentials to keep that heritage, his offspring will turn to TERROR to claim what does not belong to them! Genesis 16:11-12
That's why you're seeing Ishmael's descendants gathering nations by force to claim PURE WORSHIP!

Granted, Isaac's descendants also lost that privilege after killing so many of God's prophets and finally killing God's only begotten son! Matthew 23:37-38

God has chosen another nation, but not as our Islamic tutors taught us back then because this new nation will gather worshipers from all races for God without the use of FORCE and all the worshipers no matter where they may come from will become one happy global family in FAITH. Isaiah 2:1-4 compared to John 13:34-35, 17:20-23, 1Corinthians 1:10, Philippians 2:2, Ephesians 4:3
Jehovah's Witnesses have fulfilled this purpose, as a global family they have produced all the fruitage befitting God's chosen people {Galatians 5:22-23} and no Arabian {Ishmaelite} theory can refute this, that's why Abdulgaffar is silenced! Isaiah 54:17

@maximus69: i bet you never have spoken to a jewish rabbi, before, assuming you are in nigeria and it will be pretty hard for you to find them out there. even if you were to be in uk, usa, canada, you will not be able to just walk up to one to strike up a conversation. i have had may jews as personal friends and i have been to their homes and been to their annual gathering. they will entertain me on their sabbath. rabbis, at least 1 was a personal friend. let me stop there to go to what you do not know and very important on the world stage about Islam.

no jew that is worth the name will say Islam is paganic, while they will easily say christianity is idolatry and i will support my statements with videos and i hope you have the strength to listen to words spoken. everything you claim for Jesus, if the muslims don't say it is so, the jews ain't gonna say different from what the muslims say. your God is different from the God of the Muslims and the jews.


Islam is the oldest religion, says this rabbi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIh7TcrZRA





Islam is the religion of all the prophets, says jewish rabbi


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Rgr3GtHF0





The jewsih man talks about the prophet and Islam, in spite of not entering it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cUqPGXlMn0





Jewsih man thank God that achristian converts to Islam and Muhammad [SA] is the one who is like Moses [AS], it isn't Jesus [AS].


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I49sRl8DbyU






Islam is true religion, says this rabbi.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAehGSQ5h8s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTovp1CFZw





Islam and muslims are blessed says the rabbi in front of the pastor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpK9Y8V15Fw






Jew says Allah is The True One God:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65zyICBKBPI






Rabbi says christianity is idolatry:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxm26c4rklk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2miTZCsno






Trinity busted:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt9JZ8iAU5s




i bet you will be able to navigate the maze called internet and find many more videos and i pray that your heart e restored to a believing one before what stops heart from beating comes to you. Amin. i a done here and i will not respond to anything since you did not even approach my 1 Purest Master of a servant to 3 masters to a servant and let us see which one of the group of Masters is Supreme and has not equal and which servant has a singular master to serve? it will not be the 3 master and a servant combo because there is no way the 3 can be in same time talking and deciding. from the Bible we see that only One talks and decides andd the other 2 just carry out orders to show that the 2 acting as subordinates are not God but you have made them Gods anyway which is a complete error.

@Olabowale,

So you're replying on the words of Jewish rabbis concerning the true religion from God?

Why haven't this so called rabbis abandoned Judaism for Islam?

What has been causing the long lasting strife between these Jews and surrounding Islamic nations if they've all agreed on one God and pure worship?

The logic is THEORY, PRACTICAL APPLICATION and BENEFITS Sir!

If it's not the TRUTH, they will never be united as one happy global family of peace-loving worshipers just as the true God foretold through his faithful prophets! Isaiah 2:1-4

That prophesy has been fulfilled and i have seen it happening for REAL in the midst of Jehovah's Witnesses. The one and only global association of peace-loving worshippers from all races! John 17:20-23