Righteousness89:


Accept JESUS CHRIST My Brother...

The wisdom you believe you have is not close to the Foolishness of GOD ALMIGHTY...

Every being On Earth, Whether you A Christian, an Atheist or whatever... We all are Going to Face the One GOD...

You Believe GOD or not is inconsequential..

HE Created us all and Owns our Souls.

Life and all that Comes with Life is a Gift From GOD..
You and I came with nothing to this Earth and we will leave with Nothing..
You and I , Whether you Believe or Not have 2 Places where we could Spend Eternity after our lives here on Earth.. Heaven or Hell..

We have a Choice to Choose now because we still have Life in us.. The Moment we drop Dead we are Choiceless..

I Have Chosen to Make Heaven ... I have Accepted and Believed in the Only way to Heaven which is JESUS CHRIST...

Make your Choice now you have Breathe...

The Next Minute might be Late...

GOD BLESS YOU

The creator never said you should submit to any savior or messenger before you could access his presence. You didn't commit any original sin and you do not need saving.

Its humans beings like you (from Europe) that made up those lies and spread it across the world through slavery and colonialism to control you. Now, you're a slave who doesn't know he's a slave!!.

Free your mind or die in your ignorance but please stop spreading your indoctrination to others.

Thanks for your kind understanding.

spendoon:

So GOD sent you to this world just like that right? Well that is a capital NO we were sent to this world for a reason which is to worship him besides most of those people who don't believe in religion used to be mainly Christians which shows the religion is fake have ever tried looking into Islam not the Islam the western media paints evil but the real Islam

So, you're offering me Islam? Both yours and Christianity are poison. Keep it to yourself.

musicwriter:


Christianity and Islam are the same, just that Christianity has reformed a little over the centuries but Islam is still stuck in the past. Both are called Abrahamic religions because they both claim Abraham (who never existed) is their father.

I've been searching for this EVIDENCE that Abraham never existed.

Could you please share it with me?

NB: Please note that what I request is actual EVIDENCE (showing) that Abraham never existed.

Please do not conflate what I request with "ongoing" quest to find evidence for Abraham outside of available corpus of extant traditions/texts from Judaism.

Thanks bro!

I hope to hear from you in due course, dear musicwriter.

Regards!

Having waited (in vain), to hear from you, for more than thirteen (13) hours since when you first saw my request to you on what and what EVIDENCE led you to claim that "Abraham ... never existed"; may I then safely conclude that you never had any "evidence" (at least prior to when you made your above claim) which led you to the conclusion that Abraham never existed??


May I conclude that your claim (unsubstantiated, bare, and baseless as it is) is yet another example of how many often put forward assumptions, incoherent "arguments", and pseudointellectual postulations just in order to veil and obscure their emotional issues (e.g. misotheism, extreme Afrocentrism in reaction to centuries of oppression, etc.) as well as egocentricty (e.g. a very strong but yet irrational and counterintuitive desire to be perceived by others as "woke" and learned, etc.); while dishonestly but sometimes unconsiously projecting such assumptions, "arguments", and postulations as having a purely rational and intellectual grounding??


Far from having a rational and intellectual grounding, it becomes quite obvious that (like countless others') your position is simply and clearly the result of some period of pure and unadultrated socialization rather than intellectualization.



Moreover, I like to mention to you (as you probably should have now seen since when I requested evidence from you) that since after World War I, the critical problem (which had held sway) of situating Abraham within an actual historical timeline was resolved by bringing archaeological finds to bear.

Archaeological research into the problem made enormous strides with the discovery of monuments and documents which date back to the period assigned to the patriarchs (Abraham included) in the traditional accounts.

The achaeological researches uncovered the royal palace at Mari, ancient city of the Eupherates where thousands of cuineform tablets containing official archives and correspondences, and religious judicial texts; which paved way for the situation of Abraham in a historical timeline; were found.


Having said all that, I think I also recall a similar post where you "argued" that Jesus (the central figure of Christianity) is not a historical personage, but rather a borrowing from very ancient and prior personages. And you listed many of those personages from whom you think "fictitious" Jesus was borrowed. Lol.


If you can, then let's have a serious, genuine and yet polite discussion (devoid of disrespect, name-calling etc.) on these issues; while we substantiate our respective positions with evidence, proof, or inference to the ratiocination with the greatest explanatory scope and explanatory power.


NB: Please note that my views do not necessarily make me an advocate of Christianity. No, I am not! I simply stand for what is factual or most reasonable, regardless of who it is for or against.


Regards!

[s]

musicwriter:


The creator never said you should submit to any savior or messenger before you could access his presence. You didn't commit any original sin and you do not need saving.

Its humans beings like you (from Europe) that made up those lies and spread it across the world through slavery and colonialism to control you. Now, you're a slave who doesn't know he's a slave!!.

Free your mind or die in your ignorance but please stop spreading your indoctrination to others.

Thanks for your kind understanding.

[/s]

The authors of Abrahamic text invent many of their characters by combining Greek Hellenistic with elements of other religious concepts from around the globe.

Hellenistic + Israeli/Palestinian mythology.

Hellenistic + Ancient Egyptian mythology.

Hellenistic + other African religious concepts

Hellenistic + Roman mythology.

Hellenistic + other aspects of Greek mythology

The Roman inventors of Christianity manufactured their religion by following the trends found in Hellenistic religions. i.e Cosmopolitanism, Individualism , Monotheism and Syncretism.

All the Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Amujale:
The authors of Abrahamic text invent many of their characters by combining Greek Hellenistic with elements of other religious concepts from around the globe.

Hellenistic + Israeli/Palestinian mythology.

Hellenistic + Ancient Egyptian mythology.

Hellenistic + other African religious concepts

Hellenistic + Roman mythology.

Hellenistic + other aspects of Greek mythology

The Roman inventors of Christianity manufactured their religion by following the trends found in Hellenistic religions. i.e Cosmopolitanism, Individualism , Monotheism and Syncretism.

All the Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Smiles!

Amujale:
The authors of Abrahamic text invent many of their characters by combining Greek Hellenistic with elements of other religious concepts from around the globe.

Hellenistic + Israeli/Palestinian mythology.

Hellenistic + Ancient Egyptian mythology.

Hellenistic + other African religious concepts

Hellenistic + Roman mythology.

Hellenistic + other aspects of Greek mythology

The Roman inventors of Christianity manufactured their religion by following the trends found in Hellenistic religions. i.e Cosmopolitanism, Individualism , Monotheism and Syncretism.

All the Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

I want to believe that, unlike musicwriter, you would be able to defend your position and claims, not with emotions, but with evidence, proof, and inference to the best ratiocination: that is, the ratiocination with the greatest explanatory scope and explanatory power.

But I'm afraid you won't be able to, given my experience with you, on one occasion, regarding the historicity of the story of Noah's Flood. You bolted without substantiating any of your numerous claims (even after I repeatedly requested you to). You only repeated the claims and made more claims. Do you remember?

I don't like such discussions where claims are simply been repeated (and more claims made) while proving none, neither with evidence nor with ratiocination

It drains my energy unnecessarily.

Allah willed (MaShaa Allah)

TAO11:


I want to believe that, unlike musicwriter, you would be able to defend your position and claims, not with emotions, but with evidence, proof, and inference to the best ratiocination: that is, the ratiocination with the greatest explanatory scope and explanatory power.

But I'm afraid you won't be able to, given my experience with you, on one occasion, regarding the historicity of the story of Noah's Flood. You bolted without substantiating any of your numerous claims (even after I repeatedly requested you to). You only repeated the claims and made more claims. Do you remember?

I don't like such discussions where claims are simply been repeated (and more claims made) while proving none, neither with evidence nor with ratiocination

It drains my energy unnecessarily.

Wait a minute!.

So, you even believe Noah and his ark fairy tale was a historical event? Wonders shall never end!. You have never heard of the epic of Gilgamesh? That's a more ancient flood story from where Noah's flood story was plagiarized from?.

And you want me to begin a discussion with you? What on earth am I supposed to debate you? I'll rather talk to a tree than engage in such useless discussion.

Anybody interested in finding out where the Noah flood myth was copied, see below crash course and full lecture.

The Epic of Gilgamesh: Crash Course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3j5_vKQfc

The Epic of Gilgamesh- lecture by professor Andrew George

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd7MrGy_tEg

TAO11:


I want to believe that, unlike musicwriter, you would be able to defend your position and claims, not with emotions, but with evidence, proof, and inference to the best ratiocination: that is, the ratiocination with the greatest explanatory scope and explanatory power.

But I'm afraid you won't be able to, given my experience with you, on one occasion, regarding the historicity of the story of Noah's Flood. You bolted without substantiating any of your numerous claims (even after I repeatedly requested you to). You only repeated the claims and made more claims. Do you remember?

I don't like such discussions where claims are simply been repeated (and more claims made) while proving none, neither with evidence nor with ratiocination

It drains my energy unnecessarily.

I have given enough proof for anyone to conclude that all the stories peddled by Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Noah is a ficticious character invented by first century Romans.

Noah never existed and there are no records of Noah's world getting destroyed by Noah's flood.

That particular story was copied and plagerized into the Christian Bible by Roman aristocrats from various older religious text from all across the globe.

Lets be clear here, first century Roman aristocrats authored the Christian Bible; writing their story in a way that pretends they were present in an earlier time; as though they are writing in the 6th century BCE.

i.e the 17th century B.C.E Gilgamesh flood myth and the epic of Astrahasis one that predates the authors of the Noah story, whereby Enlil decides to destroy their world with a flood because their inhabitants have become too noisy, Ea is said to have warned Ultrapishtim of the impending flood and instructs him to build a boat so that their lives may survive.

There are more than twenty-five different flood myths that the authors of the Christian Bible copied and plagerised from, the Gilgamesh is merely one of them. A

Another is the Hindu Flood legend of Manu.

According to the authors of the ancient Hindu text known as Vedic Satapaths Brahmana, Manu was said to be virtuous; a favourite of Vishnu and had three sons namely:
.Charma
.Sharma
.Yapeti

According to the aurhors of the Christian Bible, Noah was said to be virtuous; also to be a favourite of God and aswell had three sons namely:

.Ham
.Shem
.Japheth

In both versions of the flood myth, both Manu and Noah are instructed to build s boat and fill it with animals and seeds.

After the flood, Noah's Ark is said to have rested on mount Ararat.

Similarly, Manu's boat was described as being perched on the top of a range of Malays mountains.

Both Noah and Manu were then said to repopulate their world.

Since Hinduism predates the author of the Christian Bible, its an accepted fact that they, the authors of the Christian Bible copied and plagerized the Manu story.

And there are more that they copied from to create their Noah flood story.

There is not one character in the whole of Abrahamic text that can claim to being original.

Its all a massive charade.

Of no significance to real history.

You will not find one original character or storyline contained inside the Christian bible, if it wasnt stolen, it was plagerised or outrighly fabricated.

musicwriter:


Wait a minute!.

So, you even believe Noah and his ark fairy tale was a historical event? Wonders shall never end!. You have never heard of the epic of Gilgamesh? That's a more ancient flood story from where Noah's flood story was plagiarized from?.

And you want me to begin a discussion with you? What on earth am I supposed to debate you? I'll rather talk to a tree than engage in such useless discussion.

Anybody interested in finding out where the Noah flood myth was copied, see below crash course and full lecture.

The Epic of Gilgamesh: Crash Course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3j5_vKQfc

The Epic of Gilgamesh- lecture by professor Andrew George

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd7MrGy_tEg

Dear musicwriter:

First, I like to call your attention to the fact that this is your first ever reply to me since you read my request and follow-ups more than 34 hours ago, where I requested that you should substantiate your claim that "Abraham ... never existed" with EVIDENCE.

It is also very important that I mention to you that you've just impliedly admitted your incapacitation to substantiate such evidently unsubstantiable claim, because you clearly and obviously kept mute on any evidence even in your comment here which came after over 34 hours of perhaps very tortuos search.

Now, it is not the actual fact of your making an indefensible and unsubstantiable claim that is the bigger issue, but the bigger issue lies in the fact that you demonstrated insincerity by not expressly admitting your bungle, your incapacitation, and the addition I made to your knowledge base as a result of my demostration of the negation of your claim via allusion to relevant archaeological finds.

You could have expressly admitted these in your comment here before then joining in on the new discussion about the historicity of the story of Noah's Flood.

The impression you tried to give-off by keeping mute on the request I had made from you (and then joining in on another discussion) was not only unfortunate but also disgraceful.

You could have admitted your staleness on the topic; and then apologize to those whose intelligence you insulted with your false claim; and by so doing reinforce the fact that learning is continous; before then moving on to join in on the new discussion.


Now to the new discussion on the historicity of the story Noah's Flood:

First, I can't help but laugh at how much you think you know on the discourse surrounding the story of the Flood of Noah, as well as how little you think I know on the discourse.

Your ignorance induced arrogance (I'm sorry to state this apparent fact) led you to assume that:

The only reason I uphold the story of the Flood of Noah, as a historical fact, is because I haven't come across stories such as the Sumerian Flood Myth of Utnapishtim (found in the Epic of Gilgamesh), or the later Akkadian Flood Myth of Atrahasis, among others.


In case you care to know, I have NOT ONLY come across these Flood myths since about a decade ago, I have actually studied them to some great depth.

I have studied them to such a depth (in the light of works done by expert mythologists on the subject) as to come to the realization that even the earliest of these Flood myths, from which others have been influenced, has its roots in the story of the Flood of Noah.

Now you must be wondering: Isn't the earliest version of the Epic of Gilgamesh dated to the 21st century BCE (i.e. sometimes in between 2100 BCE and 2001 BCE)??

Yes, it is. Lol!

It becomes obvious that it is you (just like the first YouTube video you posted, made by a random layperson like yourself) who have not done anything beyond hearing about the Flood myths, noticing the parallel between them and the Noah story, and then concluding that the Noah story borrowed/copied.


At this point, I recommend that you first read-up on the logical fallacies known in argumentation as "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" as well as "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc"

Having understood those logical fallacies, then you could sit back relax and enjoy my argument in reply to Amujale 's numerous claims on the story of Noah's flood.


But before setting out to reply Amujale, I like to quickly point out your folly, while whetting Amujale 's appetite, by drawing your attention to a quite silent but salient point made by Professor Andrew George in the lecture which you yourself posted --- A video which I first watched sometimes early this year or late last year.

First, at no time during the lecture did the professor (or anyone else) defend the amateurish, fictitious and ambitious idea that the story of Noah was a later borrowing from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Rather, the professor alluded (though quite cursorily but clearly) to the very fact which I have always defended (and which I will elaborate on in my reply to Amujale) that:


Although the earliest known tablet which contains the Epic of Gilgamesh, (which in turn contains the Flood myth of Utnapishtim) is dated to the 21st century BCE;

the ancient author(s) of the text of the tablet make it quite clear that the Flood episode which their work describes is an event in their distant past which they've only documented in cuineforms at the latter time in which they lived -- that is, in the 21st century BCE.

In fact, Professor Andrew George (from time 16:20 to time 17:15) makes it quite clear that Utnapishtim --- who is also a character in the text of the tablet --- was relating the FLOOD STORY to Gilgamesh as an ANCIENT FLOOD STORY.

In other words, this FLOOD STORY of UTNAPISHTIM (as contained in this EARLIEST known written tablet of the Flood story; that is the Epic of Gilgamesh, dated: 21st century BCE) has its roots in a PRIOR FLOOD STORY.

Guess what: This ORIGINAL PRIOR FLOOD STORY (which Utnapishtim was relating to Gilgamesh) is --- according to Professor Andrew George (whom you cited) at the time 16:20 to time 17:15 --- no other than "The Story of Noah"

The professor affirmed quite strongly that the Flood Story which Utnapishtim was narrating to Gilgamesh AS a great Flood story "LONG AGO IN HUMAN HISTORY" IS "THE STORY OF NOAH ... THE BABYLONIAN ORIGINAL"

I hope you have learnt one or two things from this primer which comes before my main arguments as will follow in my reply to Amujale's claims. Come along.

Cheers!

There is not one character in Abrahamic text that can claim to being original, if they wasnt stolen, they was plagerized or fabricated.

The Romans authors of the bible, fabricated, plagerized and sexed-up all their material.

There are over 25 flood stories from which the authors of the bible stole their content.

Given that we already know who wrote the bible and when they did, the Gilgamesh flood myth and the legend of Manu both predate the writing of the Christian bible

The authors of the bible pretend to have been living in an early period to which they really wrote.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt the fact that all Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Amujale:
There is no character or storyline in all Abrahamic text that can claim to being original.

The Romans authors of the bible, fabricated, plagerized and sexed-up all their material.

There are over 25 flood stories from which the authors of the bible stole their content.

Given that we already know who wrote the bible and when they did, the Gigamesh flood myth and the legend of Manu both predate the writing of the Christian bible

The authors of the bible pretend to have been living in an early period to which they really wrote.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt the fact that all Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Relax bro, I'm writing my reply to your "argument". I will get to you in due course.

I hope you aren't nervous already (lol, just kidding)

You would soon get the opportunity to either learn from my reply to your "argument" or refute my reply with superior argument.

Please wait on my reply.

Cheers!

Amujale:


I have given enough proof for anyone to conclude that all the stories peddled by Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

Noah is a ficticious character invented by first century Romans.

Noah never existed and there are no records of Noah's world getting destroyed by Noah's flood.

That particular story was copied and plagerized into the Christian Bible by Roman aristocrats from various older religious text from all across the globe.

Lets be clear here, first century Roman aristocrats authored the Christian Bible; writing their story in a way that pretends they were present in an earlier time; as though they are writing in the 6th century BCE.

i.e the 17th century B.C.E Gilgamesh flood myth and the epic of Astrahasis one that predates the authors of the Noah story, whereby Enlil decides to destroy their world with a flood because their inhabitants have become too noisy, Ea is said to have warned Ultrapishtim of the impending flood and instructs him to build a boat so that their lives may survive.

There are more than twenty-five different flood myths that the authors of the Christian Bible copied and plagerised from, the Gilgamesh is merely one of them. A

Another is the Hindu Flood legend of Manu.

According to the authors of the ancient Hindu text known as Vedic Satapaths Brahmana, Manu was said to be virtuous; a favourite of Vishnu and had three sons namely:
.Charma
.Sharma
.Yapeti

According to the aurhors of the Christian Bible, Noah was said to be virtuous; also to be a favourite of God and aswell had three sons namely:

.Ham
.Shem
.Japheth

In both versions of the flood myth, both Manu and Noah are instructed to build s boat and fill it with animals and seeds.

After the flood, Noah's Ark is said to have rested on mount Ararat.

Similarly, Manu's boat was described as being perched on the top of a range of Malays mountains.

Both Noah and Manu were then said to repopulate their world.

Since Hinduism predates the author of the Christian Bible, its an accepted fact that they, the authors of the Christian Bible copied and plagerized the Manu story.

And there are more that they copied from to create their Noah flood story.

" I have given enough proof ... to conclude that all the stories ... by Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive " you remarked in response to my request that your claims (in your argument structure) be substantiated, rather than left blank.


My approach to replying your "argument" here would be to:

(1) First examine and deconstruct the alleged evidence/proof you've adduced to substantiate your claim.

(2) Then proceed to constructing my evidence backed argument which would show that the story of Noah's Flood is a historical fact.


Before I proceed to examining what and what "enough proof" you've adduced to substantiate your claim of fakeness, falsity, and cointerintuitiveness of "ALL the stories ... by Abrahamic religionS"; I like to, very quickly, point out something quite salient (even though that's not the primary focus of my reply here).

I like to quickly point out and emphasize the grandioseness and absurdity of your particular claim here:

To claim that ALL the stories of Abrahamic religionS (of which there are three viz. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are fake, false, and counterintuitive; it is a necessary prerequisite that you (at least) knew what ALL the stories are, before even considering their respective veracity or otherwise

I, therefore, challenge you to list out ALL the stories found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam; in reply to which I would point out (with reference) AT LEAST ONE story from AT LEAST ONE of the three religionS which would definitely be missing in your list; thereby demonstrating that you don't even know ALL the stories to start with; thereby disproving your oft repeated grandiose claim once and for all; and thus demonstrating the absurdity of such blanket claims. Please bring them on!


Now, coming to the actual issue which borders specifically on the historicity of the Flood of Noah:


Having combed through your comments in search of the "proof" or "evidence" with which you've "substantiated" your claim (that the Flood of Noah never occurred as a historical event); the following two are the crux of all you have provided as "evidence" or "proof":


(1) That "Roman aristocrats" simply copied the story of Noah into the Christian Bible from pre-existing stories.

(2) That the Flood story of Noah was copied/borrowed from some 25 odd pre-existing Flood stories, including the Flood story of Utnapishtim, of Atrahasis, and of Manu.


Regarding your first " proof" or "evidence" which relates to the alleged copying of the Noah Story into the Christian Bible by Roman aristocrats, please note the following three facts and the conclusion that naturally follows :


(i) The Noah Story has been documented into writing in the Hebrew Bible of Judaism centuries before Christianity would begin at all.

In other words, Christianity simply came later to endorse, embrace and adopt an already existing scripture of Judiasm which contains the Noah Story among other stories, and then gave it the name: the Old Testament; while it (i.e. Christianity) then came up with its own exclusive scripture which came to be named: the New Testament.

So, the presence of the Noah Story in the Christian Bible is neither novel nor "original" (and Christianity never claimed it is); but rather an endorsement and an adoption of a story which already existed, centuries earlier, in a prior scripture --- the Hebrew Bible of Judaism.


(ii) The actual source documents of the Hebrew Bible of Judaism (from which the Biblical account of Noah's Story comes) have been identified, by experts in Biblical Criticism, to be two in number; and these are the Yahvist text and the Priestly (or Sacerdotal) text.

And the earliest of these two source documents (i.e. the Yahvist text) has been dated by same experts to the 9th century BCE --- that is, sometimes between 900 BCE and 801 BCE.

--- Refer to: Maurice Bucaille:The Bible, The Qur'an and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge, pp. 12 & 214.


(iii) On Roman Aristocracy, even a cursory study of the World's History would be sufficient enough to equip anyone with the knowledge that there are three broad stages and eras in Roman Hstory, namely:

(a) Ancient Rome founded in 753 BCE

(b) Roman Republic founded in 509 BCE

(c) Roman Empire founded in 27 BCE and lasted until 476 CE

--- Refer to: Enclopaedia Britannica to verify these eras of Roman History and their dates.


In the light of the foregoing facts and figures, it becomes crystal clear to every logical person that:

It is absurd to even conceive the idea that certain Roman Aristocrats (a social class which did not exist in Roman History until in the year 509 BCE during the Roman Republic) were the rightful authors of a story (i.e. the Noah Story) which was already in existence (even in written form) within the pages of the Hebrew Bible of Judaism since as early as the 9th century BCE --- that is, since sometimes between 900 BCE and 801 BCE --- that is, since some 300 years before the beginning of Roman Aristocracy.


I will continue with your second "evidence", as well as my own argument for my position, in a separate comment from this in due course.

I need to sleep now, it's quite late where I live.

Cheers!

TAO11:


Dear musicwriter:

First, I like to call your attention to the fact that this is your first ever reply to me since you read my request and follow-ups more than 34 hours ago, where I requested that you should substantiate your claim that "Abraham ... never existed" with EVIDENCE.

It is also very important that I mention to you that you've just impliedly admitted your incapacitation to substantiate such evidently unsubstantiable claim, because you clearly and obviously kept mute on any evidence even in your comment here which came after over 34 hours of perhaps very tortuos search.

Now, it is not the actual fact of your making an indefensible and unsubstantiable claim that is the bigger issue, but the bigger issue lies in the fact that you demonstrated insincerity by not expressly admitting your bungle, your incapacitation, and the addition I made to your knowledge base as a result of my demostration of the negation of your claim via allusion to relevant archaeological finds.

You could have expressly admitted these in your comment here before then joining in on the new discussion about the historicity of the story of Noah's Flood.

The impression you tried to give-off by keeping mute on the request I had made from you (and then joining in on another discussion) was not only unfortunate but also disgraceful.

You could have admitted your staleness on the topic; and then apologize to those whose intelligence you insulted with your false claim; and by so doing reinforce the fact that learning is continous; before then moving on to join in on the new discussion.


Now to the new discussion on the historicity of the story Noah's Flood:

First, I can't help but laugh at how much you think you know on the discourse surrounding the story of the Flood of Noah, as well as how little you think I know on the discourse.

Your ignorance induced arrogance (I'm sorry to state this apparent fact) led you to assume that:

The only reason I uphold the story of the Flood of Noah, as a historical fact, is because I haven't come across stories such as the Sumerian Flood Myth of Utnapishtim (found in the Epic of Gilgamesh), or the later Akkadian Flood Myth of Atrahasis, among others.


In case you care to know, I have NOT ONLY come across these Flood myths since about a decade ago, I have actually studied them to some great depth.

I have studied them to such a depth (in the light of works done by expert mythologists on the subject) as to come to the realization that even the earliest of these Flood myths, from which others have been influenced, has its roots in the story of the Flood of Noah.

Now you must be wondering: Isn't the earliest version of the Epic of Gilgamesh dated to the 21st century BCE (i.e. sometimes in between 2100 BCE and 2001 BCE)??

Yes, it is. Lol!

It becomes obvious that it is you (just like the first YouTube video you posted, made by a random layperson like yourself) who have not done anything beyond hearing about the Flood myths, noticing the parallel between them and the Noah story, and then concluding that the Noah story borrowed/copied.


At this point, I recommend that you first read-up on the logical fallacies known in argumentation as "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" as well as "Cum hoc ergo propter hoc"

Having understood those logical fallacies, then you could sit back relax and enjoy my argument in reply to Amujale 's numerous claims on the story of Noah's flood.


But before setting out to reply Amujale, I like to quickly point out your folly, while whetting Amujale 's appetite, by drawing your attention to a quite silent but salient point made by Professor Andrew George in the lecture which you yourself posted --- A video which I first watched sometimes early this year or late last year.

First, at no time during the lecture did the professor (or anyone else) defend the amateurish, fictitious and ambitious idea that the story of Noah was a later borrowing from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Rather, the professor alluded (though quite cursorily but clearly) to the very fact which I have always defended (and which I will elaborate on in my reply to Amujale) that:


Although the earliest known tablet which contains the Epic of Gilgamesh, (which in turn contains the Flood myth of Utnapishtim) is dated to the 21st century BCE;

the ancient author(s) of the text of the tablet make it quite clear that the Flood episode which their work describes is an event in their distant past which they've only documented in cuineforms at the latter time in which they lived -- that is, in the 21st century BCE.

In fact, Professor Andrew George (from time 16:20 to time 17:15) makes it quite clear that Utnapishtim --- who is also a character in the text of the tablet --- was relating the FLOOD STORY to Gilgamesh as an ANCIENT FLOOD STORY.

In other words, this FLOOD STORY of UTNAPISHTIM (as contained in this EARLIEST known written tablet of the Flood story; that is the Epic of Gilgamesh, dated: 21st century BCE) has its roots in a PRIOR FLOOD STORY.

Guess what: This ORIGINAL PRIOR FLOOD STORY (which Utnapishtim was relating to Gilgamesh) is --- according to Professor Andrew George (whom you cited) at the time 16:20 to time 17:15 --- no other than "The Story of Noah"

The professor affirmed quite strongly that the Flood Story which Utnapishtim was narrating to Gilgamesh AS a great Flood story "LONG AGO IN HUMAN HISTORY" IS "THE STORY OF NOAH ... THE BABYLONIAN ORIGINAL"

I hope you have learnt one or two things from this primer which comes before my main arguments as will follow in my reply to Amujale's claims. Come along.

Cheers!

Babylon is modern day Iraq!!.

So, if the professor tells you ''THE BABYLONIAN ORIGINAL" that should tell you it didn't originate from so called Jews. This's what Amujale had told you all along that the bible stories are myths copied from across other cultures by Roman aristocrats who wanted to control the world.

You have no proof whatsoever that Abraham existed. If you do, present your FACTS, I don't even need an evidence because we're talking about historical events.

TAO11:


" I have given enough proof ... to conclude that all the stories ... by Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive " you remarked in response to my request that your claims (in your argument structure) be substantiated, rather than left blank.


!

You're only wasting your time defending a lie, starting an argument you can't win.

Even if you manage to make any reasonable point here (which you've failed to do in all your lengthy epistles), your so-called holy book contains thousands of contradictions, errors, and mistakes. Errors in elementary science, history, which you will never be able to justify or defend, unless a new Bible is written.

musicwriter:


Babylon is modern day Iraq!!.

So, if the professor tells you ''THE BABYLONIAN ORIGINAL" that should tell you it didn't originate from so called Jews. This's what Amujale had told you all along that the bible stories are myths copied from across other cultures by Roman aristocrats who wanted to control the world.

You have no proof whatsoever that Abraham existed. If you do, present your FACTS, I don't even need an evidence because we're talking about historical events.

Don't be willfully ignorant, and be patient enough to want to learn.

You've put forward an academic lecture (the 2nd YouTube video) which has not only refused to support your position; but which has actually affirmed the opposite of your position where it states very clearly that:

The Flood story of Utnapishtim, mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, is a later re-telling of THE STORY of an ancient Flood event which occurred "long ago in HUMAN history" --- viz. "THE STORY of Noah".

This singular statement coming from an academic expert (and even put forward by you) has laid to an outright rest your fanciful illusion that the borrowing, copying, etc. was the other way round.

But I already anticipated that you would pull a final desperate face-saving damage control stunt. And you didn't disappoint:

You "argued" that the fact that the professor mentioned that the Noah Flood story is the Babylonian original which Utnapishtim was relating to Gilgamesh shows clearly that "it didn't originate from so-called Jews".

Notice how every reply you give (in order to save-face) makes your ignorance and emptiness on the subject very palpably perceptible. In your desperate bid to cover-up a small hole, you keep ending up digging a separate bigger hole.

But I wouldn't cease to expose your folly until humility becomes quite noticeable in you.

Now, no Abrahamic religion ever claimed in any of their respective traditions that the Flood story of Noah (which their traditions speak of) was a historical event originating from among the Jews.

The three Abrahamic religions unanimously and consistently maintain that the Flood story (which their traditions speak of) is an event early in human history (during the days of a certain patriarch named Noah) and thus several centuries before the Jewish race would even be birthed.

And the nonsensical claim of Roman aristocrats being the authors of this story among others has already been trashed and exposed as absurd in my reply to Amujale.


Now, regarding your claim on Abraham again:

Your claim that "Abraham ... never existed" is required or obliged (in accordance with the principle of onus probandi) to be proven by you, for your claim to be deemed to be true.

On the other hand, I am not obliged or required (in accordance with the principle of onus probandi) to disprove your claim, neither is my non-disproval of your claim an evidence of of your claim's "truth". To insist otherwise (as you obviously are doing) is to be doing what is known as shifting the burden

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim.


However, although I understood that I do not have the obligation or burden of disproving your claim, I actually did indeed go beyond the call of duty to actually disprove your unsubstantiated claim.

I adduced extra-scriptural evidence from the finds of post-Word War I archaeological excavation quests in the Near East which resolved the biographical problem inherent in the Judeo-Christian materials on Abraham and thus help to situate Abraham in an actual historical timeline viz. from circa 2000 BCE to circa 1501 BCE.

--- Refer to Encyclopaedia Britannica for details.

If you care to carefully read what you respond to, you should have noticed that I've already trashed your unsubstantiable claim with evidence and proof.


And talking about evidence, I am not sure what language you were speaking when you wrote:

" ... present your FACTS, I DON'T EVEN NEED AN EVIDENCE because we're talking about historical events."

Is the foregoing supposed to be English? I swear it is gibberish!


A final word:

You should start an examination of the evidences for the historicity of Abraham with a detailed study of the discourse as presented in Encyclopaedia Britannica before moving on to other sources such as: O. Odelain and R. Séguineau (Trans. M. J. O'Connell), Dictionary Of Proper Names And Places In The Bible, 1981, Robert Hale Ltd.: London among others.


Like I had advised you earlier, sit back relax and enjoy my discussion with Amujale on the historicity of Noah's Flood.

Cheers!

gensteejay:

You're only wasting your time defending a lie, starting an argument you can't win.

Even if you manage to make any reasonable point here (which you've failed to do in all your lengthy epistles), your so-called holy book contains thousands of contradictions, errors, and mistakes. Errors in elementary science, history, which you will never be able to justify or defend, unless a new Bible is written.

Lol!

In reply to your emotional remark that I have "failed" to make any point (even if you assume that I have been reasonable); could you please point out to me where and where specifically my argument so far is flawed?

Thanks. Please remember that your job is simple -- To point out the error which breaks my argument apart.

And secondly, could you please point out to me where I noted that my "so-called holy book" does not contain "thousands of contradictions, errors and mistakes"?

Lol

It's obvious (even from your first comment) that you're a very assumptive fellow. You should rather acknowledge ignorance, become humble, and then learn.

These Yahweh's slaves are a strange lot! So you even know the Bible, which was inspired by the all-knowing Jehovah, has several errors and contradictions and you're still defending the fact that the book is heavily plagiarized. And you still remain a Christian? Lol

How can a person that calls himself God make mistakes and commit errors? How can a person that that says he's all-knowing get angry, or jealous?

These are human traits, showing limitations in knowledge and intelligence. Religion has really messed these slaves' intellect up.

The question I've always asked is that given these abrahamic gods could do anything they wanted, why did the y still require the help of their subjects/creations to write their holy books for them? Couldn't have just, you know, magically produced the book and made it indestructible up till this time and forevermore as a sign that they're the real deal. Instead they let their flawed creation write it. Now most religions scattered across the globe, both ancient and new, share similar concepts regarding issues that affect us as humans. Today I hear things like "you're lucky God is no longer the god of those days, or your eye for see when", just based on what they read in a book. I dare to say that without the reward of heaven and the eternal punishment in hell, there would be nothing like religion today because these are the two things keeping religion.

gensteejay:
These Yahweh's slaves are a strange lot! So you even know the Bible, which was inspired by the all-knowing Jehovah has several errors and contradictions and you're still defending the fact that the book was heavily plagiarized. And you still remain a Christian? Lol

How can a person that calls himself God make mistakes and commit errors? How can a person that that says he's all-knowing get angry, or jealous?

These are human traits, showing limitations in knowledge and intelligence. Religion has really messed these slaves' intellect up.

Bro, I beg you with your own life (if you value it) to stop derailing the flow of my comments.

You are trying too hard to give-off the false impression that you know anything about me. You don't know jack about about me or the worldview I uphold.

You're only trying to reconstruct who you think I am and what worldview you think I uphold based from some bits and pieces of my comment.

You appear to be unable to comprehend the simple fact that a book can contain some indications or pieces of historical fact, while still side by side containing other grave errors.

I should tell you, as a final note, that one does not have to be a believer in religion, in a "holy book", or in a god for them to come to the realization that archaeological, geomorphological, and oceonographical data (among others) have been adduced by experts (who do not care about the idea of a god) to corroborate the historicity of the story of the Flood of Noah; the historicity of the story of Abraham; among some others.

Please sit back relax and enjoy the second part of my reply to Amujale where I will be dealing with the Flood mythologies while also adducing the scientific findings which corroborate the Flood story of Noah.

Cheers!

TAO11:


Bro, I beg you with your own life (if you value it) to stop derailing the flow of my comments.

You are trying too hard to give-off the false impression that you know anything about me. You don't know jack about about me or the worldview I uphold.

You're only trying to reconstruct who you think I am and what worldview you think I uphold based from some bits and pieces of my comment.

You appear to be unable to comprehend the simple fact that a book can contain some indications or pieces of historical fact, while still side by side containing other grave errors.

I should tell you, as a final note, that one does not have to be a believer in religion, in a "holy book", or in a god for them to come to the realization that archaeological, geomorphological, and oceonographical data (among others) have been adduced by experts (who do not care about the idea of a god) to corroborate the historicity of the story of the Flood of Noah; the historicity of story of Abraham; among some others.

Please sit back relax and enjoy the second part of my reply to Amujale where I will be dealing with the Flood mythologies while also adducing the scientific findings which corroborate the Flood story of Noah.

Cheers!

You're just confused — neither here nor there. Pretending to be a non-believer of the Bible on one thread and doing the opposite on other threads.

Or you just cherry-pick your favorite parts of the Bible as the authentic/reliable words of Yahweh that contain no errors and mistakes, and others as belonging to men, replete with errors.

gensteejay:

You're just confused — neither here nor there. Pretending to be a non-believer of the Bible on one thread and doing the opposite on other threads.

Or you just cherry-pick your favorite parts of the Bible as the authentic/reliable words of Yahweh that contain no errors and mistakes, and others as belonging to men, replete with errors.

Please stop distracting me.

You don't know me, neither do you know what worldview I uphold. So, stop pretending to know me.

Please cull out the thread where you noted that I wasn't a non-believer of the Bible. (A second challenge to you)

You appear to be more interested in the worldview people uphold, rather than deal with their argument at hand.

If you must distract me going forward, then let it (at least) be that you want to meet the two challenges I've given you so far, otherwise, I may be forced to ignore you and stop dignifying you.

Please I genuinely and sincerely beg you to let me make my point (after which I promise to talk to you).

I hope you're not the same person I wanted to reply to trying to distract me from doing just that. Lol!

TAO11:


Please stop distracting me.

You don't know me, neither do you know what worldview I uphold. So, stop pretending to know me.

Please cull out the thread where you noted that I wasn't a non-believer of the Bible. (A second challenge to you)

You appear to be more interested in the worldview people uphold, rather than deal with their argument at hand.

If you must distract me going forward, then let it (at least) be that you want to meet the two challenges I've given you so far, otherwise, I may be forced to ignore you and stop dignifying you.

Please I genuinely and sincerely beg you to let me make my point (after which I promise to talk to you).

I hope you're not the same person I wanted to reply to trying to distract me from doing just that. Lol!

Lol. I'm not. Seems you're new on Nairaland. OK, let me leave you to continue your earlier discussion...

Amujale:

Abrahamic religious text are based on ficticious characters.

Abrahamic text are not genuine historical documents.

There is not one character in Abrahamic text that can claim to being original, if they wasnt stolen, they was plagerized or fabricated.

The Romans authors of the bible, fabricated, plagerized and sexed-up all their material.

There are over 25 flood stories from which the authors of the bible stole their content.

Given that we already know who wrote the bible and when they did, the Gilgamesh flood myth and the legend of Manu both predate the writing of the Christian bible

The authors of the bible pretend to have been living in an early period to which they really wrote.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt the fact that all Abrahamic religions are fake, false and counterintuitive.

I challenge anyone to name any of the famous Abrahamic textual characters or story-line that they deem is authentic or real.

The main point of my post is to further prove to the reader beyond reasonable doubt that all the characters in Abrahamic text are fake.

TAO11:


Don't be willfully ignorant, and be patient enough to want to learn.

You've put forward an academic lecture (the 2nd YouTube video) which has not only refused to support your position; but which has actually affirmed the opposite of your position where it states very clearly that:

The Flood story of Utnapishtim, mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, is a later re-telling of THE STORY of an ancient Flood event which occurred "long ago in HUMAN history" --- viz. "THE STORY of Noah".

This singular statement coming from an academic expert (and even put forward by you) has laid to an outright rest your fanciful illusion that the borrowing, copying, etc. was the other way round.

But I already anticipated that you would pull a final desperate face-saving damage control stunt. And you didn't disappoint:

You "argued" that the fact that the professor mentioned that the Noah Flood story is the Babylonian original which Utnapishtim was relating to Gilgamesh shows clearly that "it didn't originate from so-called Jews".

Notice how every reply you give (in order to save-face) makes your ignorance and emptiness on the subject very palpably perceptible. In your desperate bid to cover-up a smaller hole, you keep ending up digging a separate bigger hole.

But I wouldn't cease to expose your folly until humility becomes quite noticeable in you.

Now, no Abrahamic religion ever claimed in any of their respective traditions that the Flood story of Noah (which their traditions speak of) was a historical event originating from among the Jews.

The three Abrahamic religions unanimously and consistently maintain that the Flood story (which their traditions speak of) is an event early in human history (during the days of a certain patriarch named Noah) and thus several centuries before the Jewish race would even be birthed.

And the nonsensical claim of Roman aristocrats being the authors of this story among others has already been trashed and exposed as absurd in my reply to Amujale.


Now, regarding your claim on Abraham again:

Your claim that "Abraham ... never existed" is required or obliged (in accordance with the principle of onus probandi) to be proven by you, for your claim to be deemed to be true.

On the other hand, I am not obliged or required (in accordance with the principle of onus probandi) to disprove your claim, neither is my non-disproval of your claim an evidence of of your claim's "truth". To insist otherwise (as you obviously are doing) is to be doing what is known as shifting the burden

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim.


However, although I understood that I do not have the obligation or burden of disproving your claim, I actually did indeed go beyond the call of duty to actually disprove your unsubstantiated claim.

I adduced extra-scriptural evidence from the finds of post-Word War I archaeological excavation quests in the Near East which resolved the biographical problem inherent in the Judeo-Christian materials on Abraham and thus help to situate Abraham in an actual historical timeline viz. from circa 2000 BCE to circa 1501 BCE.

--- Refer to Encyclopaedia Britannica for details.

If you care to carefully read what you respond to, you should have noticed that I've already trashed your unsubstantiable claim with evidence and proof.


And talking about evidence, I am not sure what language you were speaking when you wrote:

" ... present your FACTS, I DON'T EVEN NEED AN EVIDENCE because we're talking about historical events."

Is the foregoing supposed to be English? I swear it is gibberish!


A final word:

You should start an examination of the evidences for the historicity of Abraham with a detailed study of the discourse as presented in Encyclopaedia Britannica before moving on to other sources such as: O. Odelain and R. Séguineau (Trans. M. J. O'Connell), Dictionary Of Proper Names And Places In The Bible, 1981, Robert Hale Ltd.: London among others.


Like I had advised you earlier, sit back relax and enjoy my discussion with Amujale on the historicity of Noah's Flood.

Cheers!

It has become clear to me that something is wrong with you. You really believe someone called Noah saved all the animals and plants in the world in a wooden boat? If you really believe this, you need to be a slave in a white man's plantation. Because even without evidence; can't common sense tell you that's not possible? Your type of slavery is the exact reason Africa cannot move ahead because your intellect is dead and can only be used to write English. And you're probably somewhere people think you know what you're doing!.

The professor had told you that ''the Noah Flood story is the Babylonian original'' still you cannot even understand your own writing because you've placed emotion above logic. He said ''the Noah Flood story... yes, the Babylonian original.'' The Noah story originated in Babylon (Iraq).

Yes, indeed, intellectual slavery is the worst legacy of colonialism.

Amujale:

Lets be clear here, first century Roman aristocrats authored the Christian Bible; writing their story in a way that pretends they were present in an earlier time; as though they are writing in the 6th century BCE.

Historians have already identified all the authors of every chapter of the Christian bible.

And there is overwhelming proof hat Roman aristocrats are the authors.

I share a few of the authors names on the forum already.

Insteas of arguing blindly, why not research on all the content of my post.

gensteejay:
These Yahweh's slaves are a strange lot! So you even know the Bible, which was inspired by the all-knowing Jehovah has several errors and contradictions and you're still defending the fact that the book is heavily plagiarized. And you still remain a Christian? Lol

How can a person that calls himself God make mistakes and commit errors? How can a person that that says he's all-knowing get angry, or jealous?

These are human traits, showing limitations in knowledge and intelligence. Religion has really messed these slaves' intellect up.

That guy is a very sick person.

I've long suspected he creates many accounts to argue on religion. He've debated me with so many usernames but he always deny he's a christian, in one thread he said he's an Ifa worshiper.

musicwriter:


...You really believe someone called Noah saved all the animals and plants in the world in a wooden boat? If you really believe this, you need to be a slave in a white man's plantation. Because even without evidence; can't common sense tell you that's not possible? Your type of slavery is the exact reason Africa cannot move ahead because your intellect is dead and can only be used to write English. And you're probably somewhere people think you know what you're doing!.

The professor had told you that ''the Noah Flood story is the Babylonian original'' still you cannot even understand your own writing because you've placed emotion above logic. He said ''the Noah Flood story... yes, the Babylonian original.'' The Noah story originated in Babylon (Iraq).

Yes, indeed, intellectual slavery is the worst legacy of colonialism.

Totally agree with you.

Noah is a ficticious character.

Thank you for including the Iraq flood story, there are over twenty-five flood stories that predates the writing of the Christian bible, the one most people know about is that which the Romans plagerised into Abrahamic text.